Volts500, Mark and Sue,

Thanks to your help and the help of others I now feel I know enough to keep
the electrician honest. I've got the soars book on order and I plan to do
some of the grunt work myself. I honestly didn't realize this thread would
get so involved. It's very kind of you to help out while keeping the focus
on my safety. To ease my guilt at having imposed on so much of your time, I
can only hope others will get some use out of it as well.

Keeping everything in mind, I'm going to follow Volt's advice for all the
grounding. I'm also going to replace the Service Disconnect (as Mark
suggested), and rewire the panelboard. Now, this opens up a few more
questions. If I had any shame, I would feel too guilty to ask any more, but
I guess I'm a bit shameless. If you guys would start giving crappy and
vague advice, you really would avoid people like me buggying you so much.

Volts: It appears that the metal housing of the water meter negates the
need to jumper it. In this case, I think it would be better to simply
attach the grounding clamp as near as possible to the point at which the
pipe enters the home. Agreed? (See image)
http://www.geocities.com/mydeadpresidents/index.html

As for outgoing circuits, what kind of trouble can be caused by having a mix
of neutrals and grounds on each bus? I'm gonna fix it no matter what, but
it won't be the first thing I do.

You've seen my Service Disconnect box. Is it common to have a separate
service disconnect box as I do? Had it been wired correctly, couldn't I
have just used the panelboard which has it's own 100 AMP breaker) and then
skip the current Service Disconnect box?

Tell me I have this right. Let's assume I keep the Service Disconnect at
100 AMP but I want to upgrade the box. I would then get a new box (that
supports at least 100amps) then add a 100 AMP breaker for the incoming power
and then get another 100 AMP breaker for the power outgoing to the
panelboard. In other words, because my panelboard has room for the circuits
I need and that I forsee needing, I see no reason to try to run circuits
from my new Service Disconnect box and therfore, the power should just go
straight through. Put another way, I'm not using the panelboard as a
subpanel in the traditonal sense. I'm using the panelboard for ALL circuits
and the Service Disconnect is really nothing more than a way to kill the
main power and provide a lauching point for grouding conductors. Is there
anything wrong with this setup?

My main service breaker only allows for 100amps. I've read that a 100
breaker usually means you can go 200 or more, but I've totaled up the amps
of the circuits in my panel box and it's around 500! However, in the two
years I've lived here, I've never once thrown a breaker. Also, some of the
circuits are used seasonally. I've got 60 amps dedicated to the AC, but I
also have 160 amps dedicated to space heaters which I almost never use, not
even in the winter time (because that same room also has a wood stove). Is
it time to upgrade to 200amps?

I regards to power coming into my home (2 hot/1 neutral), how much power is
available? I mean, right now, judging by the breaker in my Service
Disconnect, I'm utilizing up to 100 AMPs of power. If I wanted to go 200,
then can I just upgrade to a breaker and panel that support the extra amps?
Or, is there some kind of physical change the Power Co will have to make?

Thanks

"Mark Wilson" wrote in message
...
Volts500, Mark and Sue,

Thanks to your help and the help of others I now feel I know enough to
keep
the electrician honest. I've got the soars book on order and I plan to
do
some of the grunt work myself. I honestly didn't realize this thread
would
get so involved. It's very kind of you to help out while keeping the
focus
on my safety. To ease my guilt at having imposed on so much of your time,
I
can only hope others will get some use out of it as well.

Keeping everything in mind, I'm going to follow Volt's advice for all the
grounding. I'm also going to replace the Service Disconnect (as Mark
suggested), and rewire the panelboard. Now, this opens up a few more
questions. If I had any shame, I would feel too guilty to ask any more,
but
I guess I'm a bit shameless. If you guys would start giving crappy and
vague advice, you really would avoid people like me buggying you so much.


Don't feel guilty -- that what these forums are for. If we get tired of your
questions, you'll only get lame (or no) answers.


Volts: It appears that the metal housing of the water meter negates the
need to jumper it. In this case, I think it would be better to simply
attach the grounding clamp as near as possible to the point at which the
pipe enters the home. Agreed? (See image)
http://www.geocities.com/mydeadpresidents/index.html

As for outgoing circuits, what kind of trouble can be caused by having a
mix
of neutrals and grounds on each bus? I'm gonna fix it no matter what, but
it won't be the first thing I do.

If it is service equipment, then none as ground and neutral are the same. In
a subpanel, the voltage drop across the neutral will raise your ground this
same amount (typically 1 to 3 volts). For things that actually go to a true
ground, such as audio tuners and cable TV cables, you'll get a current
flowing in the shield causing noise, hum, or other interesting behavior.


You've seen my Service Disconnect box. Is it common to have a separate
service disconnect box as I do? Had it been wired correctly, couldn't I
have just used the panelboard which has it's own 100 AMP breaker) and then
skip the current Service Disconnect box?

This seems to be a regional thing. Some areas demand an outside disconnect.
Where I live, the disconnects can be inside the house as long as they are
very near where the service cables enter. Since your second panel is also
outside, you meet the outside disconnect rule. The only other issue would be
if your area has a limitation on how far the main disconnect needs to be
from the meter. If they have one, it may be short, like 5 feet. The intent
here is to minimize the length of unfused service conductors and the amount
of structure they will damage should they flame up.


Tell me I have this right. Let's assume I keep the Service Disconnect at
100 AMP but I want to upgrade the box. I would then get a new box (that
supports at least 100amps) then add a 100 AMP breaker for the incoming
power
and then get another 100 AMP breaker for the power outgoing to the
panelboard. In other words, because my panelboard has room for the
circuits
I need and that I forsee needing, I see no reason to try to run circuits
from my new Service Disconnect box and therfore, the power should just go
straight through. Put another way, I'm not using the panelboard as a
subpanel in the traditonal sense. I'm using the panelboard for ALL
circuits
and the Service Disconnect is really nothing more than a way to kill the
main power and provide a lauching point for grouding conductors. Is
there
anything wrong with this setup?

The first panel is still your service disconnect because it has a breaker in
it. Additional service rated panels must be grouped (can't be 20 feet across
the wall) and there is usually no fusing between them. If your local
inspector says its OK, you may be able to replace the 100A disconnect with
just a junction box if the existing house circuit panel has a 100A main
disconnect. Then run new wires from the meter base to the panel where all
your circuits are and use it as a main service rated panel.


My main service breaker only allows for 100amps. I've read that a 100
breaker usually means you can go 200 or more, but I've totaled up the amps
of the circuits in my panel box and it's around 500! However, in the two
years I've lived here, I've never once thrown a breaker. Also, some of
the
circuits are used seasonally. I've got 60 amps dedicated to the AC, but I
also have 160 amps dedicated to space heaters which I almost never use,
not
even in the winter time (because that same room also has a wood stove).
Is
it time to upgrade to 200amps?

Again a local thing. Here, all services must be wired for 200A, but you
could put in a 100A breakered panel if you want to. The wires will have to
be sized for 200A though. If your service wires are 100A, then you can't
increase to 200A without replacing them. Same with your meter base -- is it
100A or 200A? You can put a 200A breakered panel on a 100A service if you've
done a load calculation and it indicates you're not exceeding the 100A
service. Finally, check with your utility to see how big your transformer
is. You'll want at least a 20 KVA for a 200A service, and preferably a 25 or
30 KVA.


I regards to power coming into my home (2 hot/1 neutral), how much power
is
available? I mean, right now, judging by the breaker in my Service
Disconnect, I'm utilizing up to 100 AMPs of power. If I wanted to go 200,
then can I just upgrade to a breaker and panel that support the extra
amps?
Or, is there some kind of physical change the Power Co will have to make?


100A is available at 240V (24 KVA). Power company may have to increase their
wires to you and may have to increase the transformer. You may have to
increase the meter base, the service entrance wires and the main panel.

--
Mark
Kent, WA

"Mark Wilson" wrote in message
...

Volts: It appears that the metal housing of the water meter negates the
need to jumper it. In this case, I think it would be better to simply
attach the grounding clamp as near as possible to the point at which the
pipe enters the home. Agreed? (See image)
http://www.geocities.com/mydeadpresidents/index.html


Now we're getting into the what if's and why for's (Although you seem to be
grasping the concepts, I'm trying to avoid all of that to keep
misunderstandings to a minimum.) Best to jumper the meter and be done with
it.......$2 part, 5 min. work, tops. Don't forget to jumper the hot water
to the cold water at the water meter.


As for outgoing circuits, what kind of trouble can be caused by having a
mix
of neutrals and grounds on each bus? I'm gonna fix it no matter what, but
it won't be the first thing I do.


Can cause all sorts of nasty problems. I think Mark covered that and the
rest of it pretty well.

"volts500" wrote

"Mark Wilson" wrote in message
...

Volts: It appears that the metal housing of the water meter negates
the
need to jumper it. In this case, I think it would be better to
simply
attach the grounding clamp as near as possible to the point at which
the
pipe enters the home. Agreed? (See image)
http://www.geocities.com/mydeadpresidents/index.html


Now we're getting into the what if's and why for's (Although you seem
to be
grasping the concepts, I'm trying to avoid all of that to keep
misunderstandings to a minimum.) Best to jumper the meter and be done
with
it.......$2 part, 5 min. work, tops. Don't forget to jumper the hot
water
to the cold water at the water meter.


As for outgoing circuits, what kind of trouble can be caused by
having a
mix
of neutrals and grounds on each bus? I'm gonna fix it no matter
what, but
it won't be the first thing I do.


Can cause all sorts of nasty problems. I think Mark covered that and
the
rest of it pretty well.

Most water meters that I'm familiar with use rubber compression or
washer type seals. Those big brass nuts, they really don't connect
electrically to the tubing to the meter body all that well.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

Mark,


You've seen my Service Disconnect box. Is it common to have a separate
service disconnect box as I do? Had it been wired correctly, couldn't I
have just used the panelboard which has it's own 100 AMP breaker) and
then
skip the current Service Disconnect box?

This seems to be a regional thing. Some areas demand an outside disconnect.
Where I live, the disconnects can be inside the house as long as they are
very near where the service cables enter. Since your second panel is also
outside, you meet the outside disconnect rule. The only other issue would
be
if your area has a limitation on how far the main disconnect needs to be
from the meter. If they have one, it may be short, like 5 feet. The intent
here is to minimize the length of unfused service conductors and the amount
of structure they will damage should they flame up.

Actually, both my Service Disconnect and Panelboard are inside the house.
Outside the house there is only a meter. All in all, having a separate
Service Disconnect is fine for now, although I think I'll replace it with
the Cutler Hammer box you suggested. Of course the Power Co will have to
someone disconnect power for the Service Disconnect to be rewired. How does
the Power Co go about shutting down power? Do they have to climb the pole
or is there something they can do at the meter?

My main service breaker only allows for 100amps. I've read that a 100
breaker usually means you can go 200 or more, but I've totaled up the
amps
of the circuits in my panel box and it's around 500! However, in the two
years I've lived here, I've never once thrown a breaker. Also, some of
the
circuits are used seasonally. I've got 60 amps dedicated to the AC, but
I
also have 160 amps dedicated to space heaters which I almost never use,
not
even in the winter time (because that same room also has a wood stove).
Is
it time to upgrade to 200amps?

Again a local thing. Here, all services must be wired for 200A, but you
could put in a 100A breakered panel if you want to. The wires will have to
be sized for 200A though. If your service wires are 100A, then you can't
increase to 200A without replacing them. Same with your meter base -- is it
100A or 200A? You can put a 200A breakered panel on a 100A service if
you've
done a load calculation and it indicates you're not exceeding the 100A
service. Finally, check with your utility to see how big your transformer
is. You'll want at least a 20 KVA for a 200A service, and preferably a 25
or
30 KVA.

The meter says something like "200cl 240v 3w" I'll give the Power Co a call
and look into it. I'm sure it's not a black and white issue, but if I'm not
throwing breakers, is it fair to say I don't really need 200A at this time?
I hate to rewire everything only to decide later that I need to upgrade the
panelboard too.

"Mark Wilson" wrote in message
...
Actually, both my Service Disconnect and Panelboard are inside the house.
Outside the house there is only a meter. All in all, having a separate
Service Disconnect is fine for now, although I think I'll replace it with
the Cutler Hammer box you suggested. Of course the Power Co will have to
someone disconnect power for the Service Disconnect to be rewired. How
does
the Power Co go about shutting down power? Do they have to climb the pole
or is there something they can do at the meter?

Ah, now were making progress. Inside the house, they want your main
disconnect as soon as possible. Usually, this means within 5' of where the
wire penetrates the exterior wall. If your service panel is 20 feet from the
disconnect, that explains why you have a disconnect. Why they didn't put a
normal panelboard where the disconnect is located I don't know....

Usually, power is disconnected by pulling the meter. Sometimes, you can do
this yourself, but you must inform the power company so they can come back
and seal it (and know why the seal has been broken). It would be better to
have the power company come pull your meter, as they can deal with any
oh-****s that happen. A service enclosure is not a nice place to have things
stuck or falling out! The only thing that sucks here is re-establishing
service. You may be without power for a day while you wait for the power
company to come back. You may feel more comfortable putting the meter back
in than taking it out. That would get you going again sooner.

Climbing the pole would work too, but they'll only do that if you need to
work in or replace the meter enclosure.


The meter says something like "200cl 240v 3w" I'll give the Power Co a
call
and look into it. I'm sure it's not a black and white issue, but if I'm
not
throwing breakers, is it fair to say I don't really need 200A at this
time?
I hate to rewire everything only to decide later that I need to upgrade
the
panelboard too.

That would be a Class 200 meter for normal 240/120 household service. You
probably have a 200A meter enclosure if you have a 200A meter, so perhaps
this part can stay forever (unless its deteriorated). Yes, if that main is
not tripping you're probably OK (unless that breaker is defective). However,
you may want to measure your voltage sometime when you're pushing things and
see how much it sags. A wimpy transformer will help prevent you blowing the
breaker. I think that is why my power company uses a transformer that is
about half the size of your needs. When you really need 100A, you're going
to have a fair amount of voltage drop and may not get to drawing 100A
because things are drawing less current at the lower voltage.

Finally, just because you have a 200A meter doesn't mean you had 200A
service entrance conductors installed. If you ever decide to upgrade the
main disconnect to 200A, you'll need to check the wires to the meter and
from the meter for proper size. You can defer that task if you just replace
the 100A disconect with another 100A unit.

--
Mark
Kent, WA

"Mark Wilson" wrote in message
...
Actually, both my Service Disconnect and Panelboard are inside the house.
Outside the house there is only a meter. All in all, having a separate
Service Disconnect is fine for now, although I think I'll replace it with
the Cutler Hammer box you suggested. Of course the Power Co will have to
someone disconnect power for the Service Disconnect to be rewired. How
does
the Power Co go about shutting down power? Do they have to climb the pole
or is there something they can do at the meter?

Ah, now were making progress. Inside the house, they want your main
disconnect as soon as possible. Usually, this means within 5' of where the
wire penetrates the exterior wall. If your service panel is 20 feet from the
disconnect, that explains why you have a disconnect. Why they didn't put a
normal panelboard where the disconnect is located I don't know....

Usually, power is disconnected by pulling the meter. Sometimes, you can do
this yourself, but you must inform the power company so they can come back
and seal it (and know why the seal has been broken). It would be better to
have the power company come pull your meter, as they can deal with any
oh-****s that happen. A service enclosure is not a nice place to have things
stuck or falling out! The only thing that sucks here is re-establishing
service. You may be without power for a day while you wait for the power
company to come back. You may feel more comfortable putting the meter back
in than taking it out. That would get you going again sooner.

Climbing the pole would work too, but they'll only do that if you need to
work in or replace the meter enclosure.


The meter says something like "200cl 240v 3w" I'll give the Power Co a
call
and look into it. I'm sure it's not a black and white issue, but if I'm
not
throwing breakers, is it fair to say I don't really need 200A at this
time?
I hate to rewire everything only to decide later that I need to upgrade
the
panelboard too.

That would be a Class 200 meter for normal 240/120 household service. You
probably have a 200A meter enclosure if you have a 200A meter, so perhaps
this part can stay forever (unless its deteriorated). Yes, if that main is
not tripping you're probably OK (unless that breaker is defective). However,
you may want to measure your voltage sometime when you're pushing things and
see how much it sags. A wimpy transformer will help prevent you blowing the
breaker. I think that is why my power company uses a transformer that is
about half the size of your needs. When you really need 100A, you're going
to have a fair amount of voltage drop and may not get to drawing 100A
because things are drawing less current at the lower voltage.

Finally, just because you have a 200A meter doesn't mean you had 200A
service entrance conductors installed. If you ever decide to upgrade the
main disconnect to 200A, you'll need to check the wires to the meter and
from the meter for proper size. You can defer that task if you just replace
the 100A disconect with another 100A unit.

--
Mark
Kent, WA

Volts,

I'll go ahead and jumper that water meter as you said. Regarding the ground
wire going from netural bar to water heater over to water meter.... While
trying not to make dramtic bends in the conductor, it's going to be almost
impossible to prevent the it from contacting the metal ducts and armored
cable that run along the ceiling. I suppose I could try to insulate the
wire somehow when it gets near the AC, or perhaps I can find some insulated
green #4 (afterall, this is being used inside anyway). Does contact with
the ducts or AC create a problem? About how much bend can a ground wire
take (and still function well)? 135 degrees?

"Mark Wilson" wrote in message
...
"Mark Wilson" wrote in message
...
With what you've said now, your panels are OK. Both are service rated
panels, and you have two disconnects. One of those disconnects is not
really
needed and could be removed. Or, perhaps replace it with a 100A transfer
switch if you've thought about generator power...

oh no, not another tangent... lol. (generator) I was wrong about the
panelboard. It's actually rated at 200A and the breaker is 200, not 100.
I'm still considering an upgrade to 200A. Because the panelboard is rated
for 200, if I upgrade to 200, I could skip the first disconnect which
might
be the cost effective way to go. This would mean about a 5 foot run from
the outside meter to the panelboard. If I did this, I'm guessing I'd
just
run all my GEC and other grounds from the ground bus bar. I might check
back with you guys on a few things, but I've got enough to get to work
now
and I think I'll let this thread die.

So your 100A disconnect is required. A single disconnect can not be greater
than the size of the service, so a 100A breaker had to be placed in front
of
the 200A panel main. And right again, if you upgrade to 200, just remove
that 100A disconnect box and go straight to the 200A panel you already
have.

understood.




Oh, but I am still wondering about that ground conductor going from the
Service Disconnect to my water meter and pipe (from the inside of the
house). Is it bad for the bare conductor to contact armored cable (bx)
or
metal duct work? Knowing the answer will make a big difference in the
amount of work I have to do to run the wire.

No, it is not bad. Those things should already be grounded by the circuit
that feeds them. Those items touching the GEC won't change anything. If you
just don't like doing that, you can run insulated wire, but you'll need to
color it green (use tape or paint) where it is exposed. If you're planning
on a 200A upgrade at some point, run a #4 copper GEC to the water pipe.
Otherwise, you'll need to upsize it when you upgrade the service.

In my case it will be MUCH easier if I don't have to worry about the GEC
touching the ducts.


--
Mark
Kent, WA

That's it for me on this thread. Thanks!