My new house has a water meter out front that is about 24 inches below
ground level. The problem is that there is little-to-no freeze
protection. It is simply at the bottom of a hole dug in the dirt, The
hole is over 24 inches diameter at the top. There is a flat round
piece of metal plate that is supposed to cover it. It does not fit
tightly, and if it is a little off-center then there is also a gap. I
have seen this happen because the meter readers are not careful in
replacing it.

Low temp here last year was eight below zero, fahrenheit. Is there
anything I can do to protect the meter and the PCV pipe leaving the
meter, which is exposed? I thought of placing a trash bag filled with
plastic peanuts in the hole, but then realized that would freeze to
the dirt and get ripped. Whatever I use has to allow the meter readers
to get access.

Thanks for any ideas.
-dan z-

On 10/19/2016 2:04 PM, slate_leeper wrote:
My new house has a water meter out front that is about 24 inches below
ground level. The problem is that there is little-to-no freeze
protection. It is simply at the bottom of a hole dug in the dirt, The
hole is over 24 inches diameter at the top. There is a flat round
piece of metal plate that is supposed to cover it. It does not fit
tightly, and if it is a little off-center then there is also a gap. I
have seen this happen because the meter readers are not careful in
replacing it.
....

I _presume_ there's more than just the hole but is a piece of drainage
conduit or somesuch? Otherwise, over time it's going to collapse and
then it won't be a problem...

I'd modify the lid to have registration so it does fit as a first step.
How much does the meter output location they've got to see extend
above the bottom? You could fill that part semi-permanently with foam
cut to fit and likely that'd be all you'd need. Could also attach as
part of the first part there 3-4" of solid foam to the bottom of the lid
so it serves both purposes simultaneously.

On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 14:14:19 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/19/2016 2:04 PM, slate_leeper wrote:
My new house has a water meter out front that is about 24 inches below
ground level. The problem is that there is little-to-no freeze
protection. It is simply at the bottom of a hole dug in the dirt, The
hole is over 24 inches diameter at the top. There is a flat round
piece of metal plate that is supposed to cover it. It does not fit
tightly, and if it is a little off-center then there is also a gap. I
have seen this happen because the meter readers are not careful in
replacing it.
...

I _presume_ there's more than just the hole but is a piece of drainage
conduit or somesuch? Otherwise, over time it's going to collapse and
then it won't be a problem...

I'd modify the lid to have registration so it does fit as a first step.
How much does the meter output location they've got to see extend
above the bottom? You could fill that part semi-permanently with foam
cut to fit and likely that'd be all you'd need. Could also attach as
part of the first part there 3-4" of solid foam to the bottom of the lid
so it serves both purposes simultaneously.


Unfortunately, no, there is no liner of any type on the hole, which is
why the steel plate does not fit tightly on top. My current house does
have a concrete liner and a fairly tight fitting steel cap on that.

-dan z-

Where I live, the city utility department owns the meter box.

That means if it is installed wrong, they will tell the builder to fix it.

It also means you are not allowed to mess with it.

In fact they'll tell you you're not supposed to have a shutoff wrench for their valve, but they can't enforce that. In my neighborhood the houses were all built without internal main supply shutoff valves, so we all own that wrench and keep it handy.

On 10/20/2016 06:48 AM, TimR wrote:
Where I live, the city utility department owns the meter box.

That means if it is installed wrong, they will tell the builder to fix it.

It also means you are not allowed to mess with it.

In fact they'll tell you you're not supposed to have a shutoff wrench for their valve, but they can't enforce that. In my neighborhood the houses were all built without internal main supply shutoff valves, so we all own that wrench and keep it handy.


I have an old shutoff at my house. This looks like a square iron rod
bent at an angle. It won't turn. A plumber told me I shouldn't try,
since that could break it.

--
66 days until the winter celebration (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Many of those people involved in Adolf Hitler were Satanists, many were
homosexuals -- the two things seem to go together" [Pat Robertson, ADL
report on Religious Right, page 131]

On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 08:03:59 -0500, Mark Lloyd wrote:


I have an old shutoff at my house. This looks like a square iron rod
bent at an angle. It won't turn. A plumber told me I shouldn't try,
since that could break it.

Yea, you could break it..... But what happens when your basement is
flooding and there is no way to turn off the water. I saw this happen in
someone's home. By the time the water utility finally was able to shut
off the water, by bringing in a lot of equipment to dig up the lawn,
that basement had 4 feet of water in it, and everything down there was
ruined. Furnace, washer/dryer, water heater, and lots of stored stuff.

Soak that valve with PB Blaster daily for several weeks, then carefully
turn it a little at a time. OR, pay a plumber to replace it NOW. That
will still be cheaper than having a flood.....

On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:04:25 -0400, slate_leeper
wrote:

My new house has a water meter out front that is about 24 inches below
ground level. The problem is that there is little-to-no freeze
protection. It is simply at the bottom of a hole dug in the dirt, The
hole is over 24 inches diameter at the top. There is a flat round
piece of metal plate that is supposed to cover it. It does not fit
tightly, and if it is a little off-center then there is also a gap. I
have seen this happen because the meter readers are not careful in
replacing it.

Low temp here last year was eight below zero, fahrenheit. Is there
anything I can do to protect the meter and the PCV pipe leaving the
meter, which is exposed? I thought of placing a trash bag filled with
plastic peanuts in the hole, but then realized that would freeze to
the dirt and get ripped. Whatever I use has to allow the meter readers
to get access.

Thanks for any ideas.
-dan z-

Can't offer a direct solution. What happened is years past? The meter
is the responsibility of the water utility, no? You could tick off
the meter reader if you stuff the box with insulation so they can't
read the meter.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

.... just sayin'

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 4:02:05 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:04:25 -0400, slate_leeper
wrote:

My new house has a water meter out front that is about 24 inches below
ground level. The problem is that there is little-to-no freeze
protection. It is simply at the bottom of a hole dug in the dirt, The
hole is over 24 inches diameter at the top. There is a flat round
piece of metal plate that is supposed to cover it. It does not fit
tightly, and if it is a little off-center then there is also a gap. I
have seen this happen because the meter readers are not careful in
replacing it.

Low temp here last year was eight below zero, fahrenheit. Is there
anything I can do to protect the meter and the PCV pipe leaving the
meter, which is exposed? I thought of placing a trash bag filled with
plastic peanuts in the hole, but then realized that would freeze to
the dirt and get ripped. Whatever I use has to allow the meter readers
to get access.

Thanks for any ideas.
-dan z-

Can't offer a direct solution. What happened is years past? The meter
is the responsibility of the water utility, no? You could tick off
the meter reader if you stuff the box with insulation so they can't
read the meter.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

... just sayin'

Seems rather odd that in a place where the winters can get to -8F,
that new construction puts water meters and pipe only 24" deep.
Here in NJ, where we rarely get to 0F, all that is 3 ft deep.

I'd call the water company and plumbing inspector and ask what's
going on.

On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:04:25 -0400, slate_leeper wrote:

My new house has a water meter out front that is about 24 inches below
ground level. The problem is that there is little-to-no freeze
protection. It is simply at the bottom of a hole dug in the dirt, The
hole is over 24 inches diameter at the top. There is a flat round
piece of metal plate that is supposed to cover it. It does not fit
tightly, and if it is a little off-center then there is also a gap. I
have seen this happen because the meter readers are not careful in
replacing it.

Low temp here last year was eight below zero, fahrenheit. Is there
anything I can do to protect the meter and the PCV pipe leaving the
meter, which is exposed? I thought of placing a trash bag filled with
plastic peanuts in the hole, but then realized that would freeze to
the dirt and get ripped. Whatever I use has to allow the meter readers
to get access.

Thanks for any ideas.
-dan z-

Consider installing an insulated, thermoplastic, water meter box. If you are in a really cold environment,
you can stuff some insulating foam rubber in the box and then replace the cover.

A Google search will turn up some options for you or you can call your water company and ask if they have some
recommendations.

On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:04:25 -0400, slate_leeper
wrote:

My new house has a water meter out front that is about 24 inches below
ground level. The problem is that there is little-to-no freeze
protection. It is simply at the bottom of a hole dug in the dirt, The
hole is over 24 inches diameter at the top. There is a flat round
piece of metal plate that is supposed to cover it. It does not fit
tightly, and if it is a little off-center then there is also a gap. I
have seen this happen because the meter readers are not careful in
replacing it.

Low temp here last year was eight below zero, fahrenheit. Is there
anything I can do to protect the meter and the PCV pipe leaving the
meter, which is exposed? I thought of placing a trash bag filled with
plastic peanuts in the hole, but then realized that would freeze to
the dirt and get ripped. Whatever I use has to allow the meter readers
to get access.

Thanks for any ideas.
-dan z-

Have a machine shop cut a piece of similar metal that DOES fit.
Then cut some foam insulation (like that pink stuff used on walls), that
fits fairly tight, under the lid, and glue it to a piece of treated 1/2"
plywood. Install a handle to it, so the meter readers can easily lift it
out. You could also get a short heat tape to wrap around meter and
pipes, and leave the cord where you wont cut it off with the lawn mower.
(like attach it to to a wooden post, next ot the hole) Then if you get
a severe cold spell, run an extension cord and plug it in.

Also, check what neighbors use.....

On 10/19/2016 4:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:04:25 -0400, slate_leeper
wrote:
It does not fit
tightly, and if it is a little off-center then there is also a gap. I
have seen this happen because the meter readers are not careful in
replacing it.

Have a machine shop cut a piece of similar metal that DOES fit.
Then cut some foam insulation (like that pink stuff used on walls), that
fits fairly tight, under the lid, and glue it to a piece of treated 1/2"
plywood. Install a handle to it, so the meter readers can easily lift it
out.

Meter reader? Most meters are read by a guy driving down the street
getting information from a transponder. In 35 years, only once has
anyone been in my house and that was to install the transponder.

On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:44:16 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 10/19/2016 4:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:04:25 -0400, slate_leeper
wrote:
It does not fit
tightly, and if it is a little off-center then there is also a gap. I
have seen this happen because the meter readers are not careful in
replacing it.

Have a machine shop cut a piece of similar metal that DOES fit.
Then cut some foam insulation (like that pink stuff used on walls), that
fits fairly tight, under the lid, and glue it to a piece of treated 1/2"
plywood. Install a handle to it, so the meter readers can easily lift it
out.

Meter reader? Most meters are read by a guy driving down the street
getting information from a transponder. In 35 years, only once has
anyone been in my house and that was to install the transponder.

I know they did that in some big cities, but do they do it everywhere
now? I have a well, so I dont know.... I'm surprised they dont just run
the readings thru the internet now, so they dont have to drive anywhere.

On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:44:16 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 10/19/2016 4:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:04:25 -0400, slate_leeper
wrote:
It does not fit
tightly, and if it is a little off-center then there is also a gap. I
have seen this happen because the meter readers are not careful in
replacing it.

Have a machine shop cut a piece of similar metal that DOES fit.
Then cut some foam insulation (like that pink stuff used on walls), that
fits fairly tight, under the lid, and glue it to a piece of treated 1/2"
plywood. Install a handle to it, so the meter readers can easily lift it
out.

Meter reader? Most meters are read by a guy driving down the street
getting information from a transponder. In 35 years, only once has
anyone been in my house and that was to install the transponder.


This is rural east Tennessee. We only got remote-reading electric
meters about five years ago. Water department has not caught up.

-dan z-

On 10/19/2016 05:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

[snip]

Meter reader? Most meters are read by a guy driving down the street
getting information from a transponder. In 35 years, only once has
anyone been in my house and that was to install the transponder.


Where I am, the city still reads the water meter manually. They have
talked about remote reading, but haven't done anything yet. Electric and
gas meters (companies, not city) are read remotely.

--
66 days until the winter celebration (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Many of those people involved in Adolf Hitler were Satanists, many were
homosexuals -- the two things seem to go together" [Pat Robertson, ADL
report on Religious Right, page 131]

On 10/19/2016 2:04 PM, slate_leeper wrote:
My new house has a water meter out front that is about 24 inches below
...

Actually, an idea that came later is that this is an issue the builder
should've fixed. Since it's new, lay the onus on them to correct it.

On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 21:13:44 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/19/2016 2:04 PM, slate_leeper wrote:
My new house has a water meter out front that is about 24 inches below
...

Actually, an idea that came later is that this is an issue the builder
should've fixed. Since it's new, lay the onus on them to correct it.


I guess I should have made clear that the "new" house is new to me. My
current house is for sale, and the "new" house is where I will be
moving. It was actually built in the 80's.

-dan z-

On 10/20/2016 6:45 AM, slate_leeper wrote:
....


I guess I should have made clear that the "new" house is new to me. My
current house is for sale, and the "new" house is where I will be
moving. It was actually built in the 80's.

In that case, it must not have been much of a problem up to now...

On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 07:23:10 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/20/2016 6:45 AM, slate_leeper wrote:
...


I guess I should have made clear that the "new" house is new to me. My
current house is for sale, and the "new" house is where I will be
moving. It was actually built in the 80's.

In that case, it must not have been much of a problem up to now...

I presume because it was occupied and so water was running through the
pipes often enough to prevent the freezing. It was unoccupied all last
winter. I shut the main inlet off in the house. The line coming in is
buried quite deeply and the only exposed part is in that meter hole.
Now I have an underground water leak in that pipe, and I am presuming
that it actually froze near the meter but the pressure caused the leak
elsewhere at the weakest point.

-dan z-

On 10/21/2016 6:53 AM, slate_leeper wrote:
I presume because it was occupied and so water was running through the
pipes often enough to prevent the freezing. It was unoccupied all last
winter. I shut the main inlet off in the house. The line coming in is
buried quite deeply and the only exposed part is in that meter hole.
Now I have an underground water leak in that pipe, and I am presuming
that it actually froze near the meter but the pressure caused the leak
elsewhere at the weakest point.

Repairing underground municipal water lines can be expensive. The *proper* way is for municipal waterlines to be installed below freeze line all the way in to the house. Meters are located in the house with a remote display outside for the meter reader.

Some jackass saved a few bucks by not using a remote read meter and now you're paying the price. Too bad the original plumbing inspector didn't catch that hack job.

On Thursday, October 20, 2016 at 7:46:04 AM UTC-4, slate_leeper wrote:
On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 21:13:44 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/19/2016 2:04 PM, slate_leeper wrote:
My new house has a water meter out front that is about 24 inches below
...

Actually, an idea that came later is that this is an issue the builder
should've fixed. Since it's new, lay the onus on them to correct it.


I guess I should have made clear that the "new" house is new to me. My
current house is for sale, and the "new" house is where I will be
moving. It was actually built in the 80's.

-dan z-

Then it's even more clear that the meter box is not yours. It belongs to the city, Public Works or Utility Dept or whatever they call themselves. If you do some half baked DIY construction to "protect" it, they will probably rip it out and charge you a service call. Don't do anything without their approval.

On 10/20/2016 7:15 AM, TimR wrote:
On Thursday, October 20, 2016 at 7:46:04 AM UTC-4, slate_leeper wrote:
On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 21:13:44 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/19/2016 2:04 PM, slate_leeper wrote:
My new house has a water meter out front that is about 24 inches below
...

Actually, an idea that came later is that this is an issue the builder
should've fixed. Since it's new, lay the onus on them to correct it.


I guess I should have made clear that the "new" house is new to me. My
current house is for sale, and the "new" house is where I will be
moving. It was actually built in the 80's.

-dan z-

Then it's even more clear that the meter box is not yours. It belongs to the city, Public Works or Utility Dept or whatever they call themselves. If you do some half baked DIY construction to "protect" it, they will probably rip it out and charge you a service call. Don't do anything without their approval.


The OP could contact the water people. They may install a proper meter
box at his request.

On Fri, 21 Oct 2016 10:15:28 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 10/20/2016 7:15 AM, TimR wrote:
On Thursday, October 20, 2016 at 7:46:04 AM UTC-4, slate_leeper wrote:
On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 21:13:44 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/19/2016 2:04 PM, slate_leeper wrote:
My new house has a water meter out front that is about 24 inches below
...

Actually, an idea that came later is that this is an issue the builder
should've fixed. Since it's new, lay the onus on them to correct it.


I guess I should have made clear that the "new" house is new to me. My
current house is for sale, and the "new" house is where I will be
moving. It was actually built in the 80's.

-dan z-

Then it's even more clear that the meter box is not yours. It belongs to the city, Public Works or Utility Dept or whatever they call themselves. If you do some half baked DIY construction to "protect" it, they will probably rip it out and charge you a service call. Don't do anything without their approval.


The OP could contact the water people. They may install a proper meter
box at his request.


Done that. They said they will send out an inspector next week.

-dan z-

On 10/19/2016 12:04 PM, slate_leeper wrote:
My new house has a water meter out front that is about 24 inches below
ground level. The problem is that there is little-to-no freeze
protection. It is simply at the bottom of a hole dug in the dirt, The
hole is over 24 inches diameter at the top. There is a flat round
piece of metal plate that is supposed to cover it. It does not fit
tightly, and if it is a little off-center then there is also a gap. I
have seen this happen because the meter readers are not careful in
replacing it.

Low temp here last year was eight below zero, fahrenheit. Is there
anything I can do to protect the meter and the PCV pipe leaving the
meter, which is exposed? I thought of placing a trash bag filled with
plastic peanuts in the hole, but then realized that would freeze to
the dirt and get ripped. Whatever I use has to allow the meter readers
to get access.

Thanks for any ideas.
-dan z-


Place a meter box, big plastic pipe, barrel with ends cut off, garbage
can, or something similar into the hole over the meter to form a firm
case under the lid. Then make an insulator plug with a handle to fit
into it. You could use block styrofoam, expanding foam liquid in a bag,
or even your bag of foam peanuts. A tapered case would probably make
plug removal easiest.

On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 21:05:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 10/19/2016 12:04 PM, slate_leeper wrote:
My new house has a water meter out front that is about 24 inches below
ground level. The problem is that there is little-to-no freeze
protection. It is simply at the bottom of a hole dug in the dirt, The
hole is over 24 inches diameter at the top. There is a flat round
piece of metal plate that is supposed to cover it. It does not fit
tightly, and if it is a little off-center then there is also a gap. I
have seen this happen because the meter readers are not careful in
replacing it.

Low temp here last year was eight below zero, fahrenheit. Is there
anything I can do to protect the meter and the PCV pipe leaving the
meter, which is exposed? I thought of placing a trash bag filled with
plastic peanuts in the hole, but then realized that would freeze to
the dirt and get ripped. Whatever I use has to allow the meter readers
to get access.

Thanks for any ideas.
-dan z-


Place a meter box, big plastic pipe, barrel with ends cut off, garbage
can, or something similar into the hole over the meter to form a firm
case under the lid. Then make an insulator plug with a handle to fit
into it. You could use block styrofoam, expanding foam liquid in a bag,
or even your bag of foam peanuts. A tapered case would probably make
plug removal easiest.


This might be workable. I have an extra large plastic garbage can that
is tapered. Thanks for the idea. I could probably even make it so that
the garbage can lid would still be usable on top, if I can get the cut
off can anchored well enough so that it doesn't pull out with the lid.

-dan z-

On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 07:50:22 -0400, slate_leeper
wrote:


Place a meter box, big plastic pipe, barrel with ends cut off, garbage
can, or something similar into the hole over the meter to form a firm
case under the lid. Then make an insulator plug with a handle to fit
into it. You could use block styrofoam, expanding foam liquid in a bag,
or even your bag of foam peanuts. A tapered case would probably make
plug removal easiest.


This might be workable. I have an extra large plastic garbage can that
is tapered. Thanks for the idea. I could probably even make it so that
the garbage can lid would still be usable on top, if I can get the cut
off can anchored well enough so that it doesn't pull out with the lid.

-dan z-


That may work, or get a plastic sump pump pit, and modify it to fit in
the hole. They come with a lid and everything.

First, see if this is your responsibility, or if the water company is
responsible. What you have sounds like a real mess. If the sidewalls are
just dirt, that meter will be buried in no time, and the meter gone. I'd
think the water company would want that fixed, and maybe fo it for you.

You could also build soemthing with treated lumber, or even pour
concrete around a large pail.