On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 9:14:09 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 05/13/2016 09:06 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 7:30:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 13 May 2016 09:14:13 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 5/13/2016 5:35 AM, philo wrote:
On 05/12/2016 10:27 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2016 22:00:36 -0500, philo wrote:

When I do chose to use Windows, I'll be sticking with Win7 for many years.

That only takes you up the ladder one step from guys like me with XP.

As to which OS I use...as long as it does the job, that's the bottom line.

I have just about every OS you can imagine at my fingertips.

BeOS? Unixware? Coherent UNIX? OpusV? Inferno? Jaluna? Amoeba? Mach-US?

Haw about the various versions of CPM? or the multi-user multi-tasking
OS9 ?(generally on Motorola 6809 and 68000 series systems)

Though I mainly use Linux, I've got both XP and Win7 machines at my disposal.
...but many many more...pretty much every thing between Win1 and Win10
inclusive...

and what the heck, a number of Mac's as well (both PPC and Intel)

Years ago, I had a "Luggable" computer. It was the size of a CRT oscilloscope and it had both a Z80 and 8088 CPU's and would run both DOS and CP/M.. I lost the darn thing in a move and wish I still had it along with some of my other interesting older computers that I was collecting. I found a page on it. It was a Seequa Chameleon. ^_^

http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=107

[8~{} Uncle Lizard Monster

Wow, never heard of that one. It would be a real collector's item.

As to the Z80, the company I worked for designed a Z80 based control
module somewhere in the late 70's

The control was still in production as late as 2002 or so...what the
heck...it worked!

Back in the 1980's, I worked on a lot of big arcade video games and as I remember, the darn giant things used a Z80 CPU. Of course that was hightech at the time. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Arcade Monster

On Fri, 13 May 2016 18:16:01 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 5/13/2016 5:30 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 13 May 2016 09:14:13 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 5/13/2016 5:35 AM, philo wrote:
On 05/12/2016 10:27 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2016 22:00:36 -0500, philo wrote:

When I do chose to use Windows, I'll be sticking with Win7 for many years.

That only takes you up the ladder one step from guys like me with XP.

As to which OS I use...as long as it does the job, that's the bottom line.

I have just about every OS you can imagine at my fingertips.

BeOS? Unixware? Coherent UNIX? OpusV? Inferno? Jaluna? Amoeba? Mach-US?

Haw about the various versions of CPM? or the multi-user multi-tasking
OS9 ?(generally on Motorola 6809 and 68000 series systems)

Don't run on PC's.

MP/M, ISIS-II, ZRDOS, ZDOS, VRTX, QNX, FreeDOS, MULTICS, TOPS-10, DG/UX,
AIX, ZCPR3, RTX11, UNIX, MINIX, XENIX, AmigaOS, NeXTSTEP, etc.

It's unfortunate that the one most people think about (Windows)
is probably the most boring...
CPM286 worked onPCs.. Along with several other versions from what I
remember.

On Fri, 13 May 2016 18:16:01 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Haw about the various versions of CPM? or the multi-user multi-tasking
OS9 ?(generally on Motorola 6809 and 68000 series systems)

Don't run on PC's.

MP/M, ISIS-II, ZRDOS, ZDOS, VRTX, QNX, FreeDOS, MULTICS, TOPS-10, DG/UX,
AIX, ZCPR3, RTX11, UNIX, MINIX, XENIX, AmigaOS, NeXTSTEP, etc.

It's unfortunate that the one most people think about (Windows)
is probably the most boring...

IBM used something called TQ DOS that was a multitasking application
that ran under the standard DOS OS along with the 3270 emulator.

On 05/13/2016 09:50 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:

I'm now in the habit of using the Chrome OS because my 11.6" Chromebook and bag are so easy to grab when I'm being whisked away to a medical facility. There's room in the bag for my wallet, keys, paperwork, thumbdrives, cellphone and charger. At home, I have XP, Vista and Win7 machines along with Linux boxes. When I was working, my customers were using Windows on their office computers and even POS,"Point Of Sale" systems. There were some systems I worked on that had Linux even some embedded versions. I had no customers who were using Apple computers or Chrome OS computers. Since the majority of customers are using Windows computers, it's necessary to be proficient in the use of Microsoft products. If I'm able to work again someday and everyone starts using Apple computers, I'll be out of luck. I really like Chrome but I don't know anyone else who's using it. At one time I was concerned that the Chrome OS was going away but it turns out that Google is not going to drop Chrome but
th
e company has been working on merging Android and Chrome. I guess my little Chromebook is safe for now. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Chrome Monster

Don't know why, but I never used Chrome OS.

Right now I have a fairly efficient setup so have quit most of my
experimenting...but will not likely quit entirely.

Well Phil, if you ever have a chance to pick up a refurbished Chromebook, you should give it a try. I have a little Acer C710-2833 which is 3 years old and only weighs about 3 lbs. Since I do all my banking and bill paying online, I can't be without a computer. I bought the Amazon Basics 11.6" laptop bag and added 2gb memory to the little computer and it really helped the performance. It is a great "Grab and go computer" because you can sync all your information on Google Drive across your computers so you won't be without your important information. I'm glad I bought before I got sick again and had it on hand with all my important stuff in the bag with it before I took the ambulance ride. ^_^

https://www.groupon.com/deals/gg-ace...3-or-c710-2856

[8~{} Uncle Lap Monster



I have never bought a computer in my life,
all I ever do is refurbish other people's junk.

Normally when I take a vacation I take a vacation from computers as
well, but when we go to NY at the end of the month...due to poor
planning on my part I will need to put the final touches on a
photography show I'm curating.

Years ago I was given in nice little PINK Dell mini.

I decided to spray paint it black and now it looks presentable...and I
will bring that with me. It's got XP on it which should do the job...but
if that craps out for any reason, I also made a Linux bootable USB stick

On 05/13/2016 09:55 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 9:14:09 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 05/13/2016 09:06 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 7:30:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 13 May 2016 09:14:13 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 5/13/2016 5:35 AM, philo wrote:
On 05/12/2016 10:27 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2016 22:00:36 -0500, philo wrote:

orked for designed a Z80 based control
module somewhere in the late 70's

The control was still in production as late as 2002 or so...what the
heck...it worked!

Back in the 1980's, I worked on a lot of big arcade video games and as I remember, the darn giant things used a Z80 CPU. Of course that was hightech at the time. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Arcade Monster




Neat!

On 05/13/2016 07:30 PM, wrote:

[snip]

Haw about the various versions of CPM? or the multi-user multi-tasking
OS9 ?(generally on Motorola 6809 and 68000 series systems)

What I used in college was called Isis-II and was similar to CP/M.

BTW, I still have the 8-inch flippy disk. I'll probably never know if
it's still good.

[snip]

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"To hate man and worship God seems to be the sum of all creeds." --
Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899), "Some Mistakes Of Moses"

On 05/13/2016 03:07 PM, philo wrote:

[snip]

There are still browsers and virus checkers for XP...so it will probably
be around for a while yet.

New Firefox and Opera browsers still work on XP.

I now have XP only on a VM, although I don't see any problem with
continuing to use it. As to the browser, I've used Firefox since v0.8
(the first version called Firefox).

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"To hate man and worship God seems to be the sum of all creeds." --
Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899), "Some Mistakes Of Moses"

On 05/13/2016 05:13 PM, philo wrote:

[snip]

As to Linux, it's very easy now and works quite well.

When I tried Linux in 2010, I got the browser (Firefox) working almost
immediately.

I use it as my full time OS but still find Windows quite a necessity.

I still have one real machine (not VM) with Windows, but I used it very
little. Mainly for a certain Windows-only program that needs direct
access to a USB port, but I've found out how to do that with a VM so may
put Linux on that one too.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"To hate man and worship God seems to be the sum of all creeds." --
Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899), "Some Mistakes Of Moses"

On 05/13/2016 09:06 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:

[snip]

Years ago, I had a "Luggable" computer. It was the size of a CRT oscilloscope and it had both a Z80 and 8088 CPU's and would run both DOS and CP/M. I lost the darn thing in a move and wish
I still had it along with some of my other interesting older computers that I was collecting. I found a page on it. It was a Seequa Chameleon. ^_^

I had a luggable once. It had a 5-inch color CRT.

[snip]


--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"To hate man and worship God seems to be the sum of all creeds." --
Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899), "Some Mistakes Of Moses"

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 05/13/2016 03:07 PM, philo wrote:

[snip]

There are still browsers and virus checkers for XP...so it will
probably be around for a while yet.

New Firefox and Opera browsers still work on XP.

I now have XP only on a VM, although I don't see any problem with
continuing to use it. As to the browser, I've used Firefox since v0.8
(the first version called Firefox).

Have you found the most recent versions of FF to load slow and be bloated
?
I moved over to Opera recently because FF was getting to be slooooooooow and
a general PITA with continuous "improvements" that added nothing to my user
experience . Loaded v43.0.1 on a laptop (the subject of this and my other
recent posts) and several websites said it was "out of date" and refused to
function .
Opera ain't perfect , but it does do what I need ...
--
Snag

On 05/14/2016 01:52 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

Have you found the most recent versions of FF to load slow and be bloated
?
I moved over to Opera recently because FF was getting to be slooooooooow and
a general PITA with continuous "improvements" that added nothing to my user
experience . Loaded v43.0.1 on a laptop (the subject of this and my other
recent posts) and several websites said it was "out of date" and refused to
function .
Opera ain't perfect , but it does do what I need ...



I only go on-line using my Linux machine and indeed found FF problematic
until I dumped most of the add-ons etc, Now it seems to work very well.

On 05/14/2016 01:40 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 05/13/2016 05:13 PM, philo wrote:

[snip]

As to Linux, it's very easy now and works quite well.

When I tried Linux in 2010, I got the browser (Firefox) working almost
immediately.

I use it as my full time OS but still find Windows quite a necessity.

I still have one real machine (not VM) with Windows, but I used it very
little. Mainly for a certain Windows-only program that needs direct
access to a USB port, but I've found out how to do that with a VM so may
put Linux on that one too.




I started with Linux in the year 2000


from the time I got the CD until I got everything installed and
configured was ...six months.

I sure learned a lot though but it was not user friendly at all.

On Sat, 14 May 2016 13:44:35 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 05/13/2016 09:06 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:

[snip]

Years ago, I had a "Luggable" computer. It was the size of a CRT oscilloscope and it had both a Z80 and 8088 CPU's and would run both DOS and CP/M. I lost the darn thing in a move and wish
I still had it along with some of my other interesting older computers that I was collecting. I found a page on it. It was a Seequa Chameleon. ^_^

I had a luggable once. It had a 5-inch color CRT.

[snip]
The company I worked for for the first 5 years I was in the computer
industry assembled and sold thousands of luggables - with the old EL
bacliy LSD, Plasma, ega white, yello and greenr, as well as colour CGA
and EGA screens

On Sat, 14 May 2016 13:52:39 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 05/13/2016 03:07 PM, philo wrote:

[snip]

There are still browsers and virus checkers for XP...so it will
probably be around for a while yet.

New Firefox and Opera browsers still work on XP.

I now have XP only on a VM, although I don't see any problem with
continuing to use it. As to the browser, I've used Firefox since v0.8
(the first version called Firefox).

Have you found the most recent versions of FF to load slow and be bloated
?
I moved over to Opera recently because FF was getting to be slooooooooow and
a general PITA with continuous "improvements" that added nothing to my user
experience . Loaded v43.0.1 on a laptop (the subject of this and my other
recent posts) and several websites said it was "out of date" and refused to
function .
Opera ain't perfect , but it does do what I need ...
Running 46.01 on Windows 10 - no issues - but I remove virtually all
add-ins that I don't absolutely need from any browser (and any
program, as far as that goes)

On 5/14/2016 1:06 PM, philo wrote:
I started with Linux in the year 2000

Ah. I started with NetBSD in 1993...

from the time I got the CD until I got everything installed and configured was
...six months.

Having a previous System V machine, here, the learning curve was pretty
trivial (the differences between a Berkeley distribution and AT&T being
relatively minor)

I sure learned a lot though but it was not user friendly at all.

That's why Linux will always be a hobbyist OS. The folks
promoting it can't stop tinkering to spend time to make it
"friendly".

On 5/14/2016 11:27 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 05/13/2016 07:30 PM, wrote:

[snip]

Haw about the various versions of CPM? or the multi-user multi-tasking
OS9 ?(generally on Motorola 6809 and 68000 series systems)

What I used in college was called Isis-II and was similar to CP/M.

ISIS-II was used on the MDS-800 development system. One of my
first products was developed on one. The floppies sounded like
someone grinding the gears on a manual tranny... The prom programmer
was the size of a breadbox.

[I still have the sources for the ISIS tools -- but, on paper]

BTW, I still have the 8-inch flippy disk. I'll probably never know if it's
still good.

I have a box of NOS media. Plus, a pristine 8" floppy drive
complete with electronic doorlock. The 512KB system that
I used the drive on allowed me to use the large RAM as a disk
cache. I would lock the drive door whenever there was
live data in the cache waiting to be written back to the
floppy. When I wanted to eject the floppy, I'd flush the
cache and the door would unlock when the writes were finished.

[Pretty slick for 1980 "home" technology -- classier than
the PC's that were just being introduced (and faster, too!)]

On 5/14/2016 11:52 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 05/13/2016 03:07 PM, philo wrote:

[snip]

There are still browsers and virus checkers for XP...so it will
probably be around for a while yet.

New Firefox and Opera browsers still work on XP.

I now have XP only on a VM, although I don't see any problem with
continuing to use it. As to the browser, I've used Firefox since v0.8
(the first version called Firefox).

Have you found the most recent versions of FF to load slow and be bloated

This is true of most software. "Software grows to consume the CPU cycles
(and memory!) available to it!" It is especially true of larger pieces
of code AND projects with multiple, loosely-coupled developers -- no one
has "the big picture" in mind. The approach is more like an ant colony:
each ant HOPING that his efforts contribute to the Whole but being largely
clueless about how he (and his efforts) fits into that Whole.

I moved over to Opera recently because FF was getting to be slooooooooow and
a general PITA with continuous "improvements" that added nothing to my user
experience . Loaded v43.0.1 on a laptop (the subject of this and my other
recent posts) and several websites said it was "out of date" and refused to
function .
Opera ain't perfect , but it does do what I need ...

Depends on what you want *of* a browser. The more you expect it to
do FOR you, the more bloated (and brittle) it will be.

On Saturday, May 14, 2016 at 4:34:12 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 5/14/2016 11:27 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 05/13/2016 07:30 PM, wrote:

[snip]

Haw about the various versions of CPM? or the multi-user multi-tasking
OS9 ?(generally on Motorola 6809 and 68000 series systems)

What I used in college was called Isis-II and was similar to CP/M.

ISIS-II was used on the MDS-800 development system. One of my
first products was developed on one. The floppies sounded like
someone grinding the gears on a manual tranny... The prom programmer
was the size of a breadbox.


ISIS is similar to CP/M because both were written by Gary Kildall.
Kildall worked on ISIS for Intel, which was used for Intel development
system, later he created CP/M as a
commercial product that his company Digital Research sold. Gary
couldn't reach an agreememt with IBM when they came a calling for
an OS for their first PC. Bill Gates copied CP/M, or enough of it
for MS DOS, so that the two were very similar, reached a deal with
IBMS and Gary always felt that Gates had unfairly copied from him
and cheated him.

On 2016-05-14, philo wrote:

from the time I got the CD until I got everything installed and
configured was ...six months.

You bragging or complaining?

I sure learned a lot though but it was not user friendly at all.

Define "user friendly". If you mean you have a buncha Windows users
to give you help/info about yer new system, I agee. I've been using
Linux fer almost 13 yrs and never had anyone to help me, so hadda
solve all problems by myself (anda lotta O'Reilly books). In that
respect, Linux is not real user friendly. OTOH, lotta new Linux
distributions (distros) are VERY user friendly. As I mentioned
before, Mint is specially user friendly.

BTW, I can have most any Linux box fully tweaked and running smoothly
within a week or two. As fer Windows, I barely know how to fly XP,
let alone W7-W10.

nb

On 5/14/2016 3:18 PM, notbob wrote:
BTW, I can have most any Linux box fully tweaked and running smoothly
within a week or two. As fer Windows, I barely know how to fly XP,
let alone W7-W10.

Define "fully tweaked".

Windows boxes work "out of the box". You're not busy dicking with the
window-manager-du-jour or the desktop-of-the-month.

Of course, if you're trying to set up IIS on windows, you're in
pretty much the same boat as apache under any of the Eunices.

OTOH, setting up a box to provide *services* (instead of as a
workstation) probably is easier in the FOSS world. At the very
least, you don't have to go chase down vendors of appropriate
"applications" to acquire them! (Though you may have to deal
with a package manager and countless dependencies that you'd
not envisioned)

On 05/14/2016 05:08 PM, Don Y wrote:
Of course, if you're trying to set up IIS on windows, you're in
pretty much the same boat as apache under any of the Eunices.

Setting up the Apache HTTP server on Windows isn't difficult. While the
Apache Foundation doesn't release Windows binaries, they are readily
available at sites like ApacheHaus. That avoids CAL hell. Unless you're
a lawyer, the CAL explanations are abstruse. One thing is for sure; if
you ask M$ if you need a CAL, the answer is yes.

On 5/14/2016 6:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 05/14/2016 05:08 PM, Don Y wrote:
Of course, if you're trying to set up IIS on windows, you're in
pretty much the same boat as apache under any of the Eunices.

Setting up the Apache HTTP server on Windows isn't difficult.

But Apache isn't IIS! : Frankly, I can't see any reason you'd want to run
a web service under windows -- even one of the "server" variants! It
wasn't designed with that sort of application in mind (just like you
wouldn't use Linux for real-time work).

Saying you *can* do something isn't the same as saying it's
*appropriate*!

(I can dig a trench with a shovel. But, I surely wouldn't TRY!)

While the Apache
Foundation doesn't release Windows binaries, they are readily available at
sites like ApacheHaus. That avoids CAL hell. Unless you're a lawyer, the CAL
explanations are abstruse. One thing is for sure; if you ask M$ if you need a
CAL, the answer is yes.

On 14 May 2016 22:18:28 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-05-14, philo wrote:

from the time I got the CD until I got everything installed and
configured was ...six months.

You bragging or complaining?

I sure learned a lot though but it was not user friendly at all.

Define "user friendly". If you mean you have a buncha Windows users
to give you help/info about yer new system, I agee. I've been using
Linux fer almost 13 yrs and never had anyone to help me, so hadda
solve all problems by myself (anda lotta O'Reilly books). In that
respect, Linux is not real user friendly. OTOH, lotta new Linux
distributions (distros) are VERY user friendly. As I mentioned
before, Mint is specially user friendly.

BTW, I can have most any Linux box fully tweaked and running smoothly
within a week or two. As fer Windows, I barely know how to fly XP,
let alone W7-W10.

nb
Autopilot, to a large extent.

On Sat, 14 May 2016 18:29:19 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

just like you
wouldn't use Linux for real-time work

I don't understand that since most enterprise servers are running it.

On 5/14/2016 7:10 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2016 18:29:19 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

just like you
wouldn't use Linux for real-time work

I don't understand that since most enterprise servers are running it.

"Real-time" requires timeliness guarantees. Linux was not designed with
that in mind.

What *guarantees* does an application have that it will complete by
a particular deadline? What mechanisms does the OS provide to alert
it to the fact that its deadline has passed?

Ask these questions of the OS each time your application requests
some "service" from the OS -- read a disk file, request a block of
(physical) memory, activate another process/task, etc.

The same is true of DOS/Windows/etc. The "real-time" solution with
these systems is "buy a faster computer -- and HOPE!" (cuz some
other job can get introduced that eats up resources that you HOPED
would be yours!)

On 05/14/2016 03:34 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 5/14/2016 11:27 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 05/13/2016 07:30 PM, wrote:

[snip]

Haw about the various versions of CPM? or the multi-user multi-tasking
OS9 ?(generally on Motorola 6809 and 68000 series systems)

What I used in college was called Isis-II and was similar to CP/M.

ISIS-II was used on the MDS-800 development system.

Yes.

One of my
first products was developed on one. The floppies sounded like
someone grinding the gears on a manual tranny... The prom programmer
was the size of a breadbox.

Yes. I remember using it for my class project (traffic light controller,
and unlike a lot of the others I didn't leave out the caution after the
left-turn arrow).


[snip]

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Of the delights of this world, man cares most for sexual intercourse,
yet he has left it out of his heaven" [Mark Twain]

On 05/14/2016 05:18 PM, notbob wrote:

[snip]

Define "user friendly". If you mean you have a buncha Windows users
to give you help/info about yer new system, I agee. I've been using
Linux fer almost 13 yrs and never had anyone to help me, so hadda
solve all problems by myself (anda lotta O'Reilly books).

That, and I often find solutions to my Linux problems on the internet.

In that
respect, Linux is not real user friendly. OTOH, lotta new Linux
distributions (distros) are VERY user friendly. As I mentioned
before, Mint is specially user friendly.

BTW, I can have most any Linux box fully tweaked and running smoothly
within a week or two. As fer Windows, I barely know how to fly XP,
let alone W7-W10.

nb


in 2010, I heard about he Ubuntu "live CD", and downloaded the ISO,
burned it and booted. I was using Firefox MUCH more quickly than with
Windows.

Also, I really prefer free software. It's not about the money (despite
how many people make up that stuff), but about the impediments they put
in commercial software because they ASSUME you're a thief.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Of the delights of this world, man cares most for sexual intercourse,
yet he has left it out of his heaven" [Mark Twain]

On 05/14/2016 08:25 PM, rbowman wrote:

[snip]

Setting up the Apache HTTP server on Windows isn't difficult. While the
Apache Foundation doesn't release Windows binaries, they are readily
available at sites like ApacheHaus.

[snip]

I have set up an Apache/PHP server on Windows, but I decided to use
Linux instead, to make it more like the public server I use (Rackspace,
Red Hat Linux). There are several ways PHP is different on Windows.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Of the delights of this world, man cares most for sexual intercourse,
yet he has left it out of his heaven" [Mark Twain]

On 5/15/2016 11:42 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
Also, I really prefer free software. It's not about the money (despite how many
people make up that stuff), but about the impediments they put in commercial
software because they ASSUME you're a thief.

I don't see that. I can understand them not wanting you to buy
one copy and use five -- regardless of the reasoning that might "sound
OK" (I like Borland's "like a book" analogy -- so its not necessarily
bound to a machine).

Aside from compiler/debugger, most FOSS applications just aren't up to
par, in my opinion. They are missing capabilities and suffer from
user interfaces that "just happened" instead of "being designed".
Too often, the UI is bolted onto something that wasn't designed
with it in mind. E.g., automatically rewriting rc files instead
of abandoning them (will the app crash if I go in and muck up the file
manually?)

I'm presently drafting a technical letter (no, not an email -- one that
will actually travel on a plane! : ). I wouldn't even think of
using a "productivity suite" (e.g., MSOffice) -- let alone a crippled
FOSS version of same. I'd spend all my time bouncing back and forth
between applications trying to piece together the various graphics
and inserts that I'll need. Instead, I'll do it all in FrameMaker
and have a polished "product", when done.

The appeal free software has to me is that I can *fix* it without
waiting for the vendor to decide "my problem" is worth their
attention. AND, not have to embrace a bunch of other "fixes"/changes
at the same time (which may or may not actually work!).

I can also verify ambiguities in the documentation: "Hmmm... it SAYS
that it does THIS. But, the code shows it doing THAT!"

On 5/15/2016 11:35 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
One of my
first products was developed on one. The floppies sounded like
someone grinding the gears on a manual tranny... The prom programmer
was the size of a breadbox.

Yes. I remember using it for my class project (traffic light controller, and
unlike a lot of the others I didn't leave out the caution after the left-turn
arrow).

Microprocessors didn't make it into my curriculum when I was in
school -- despite the fact that I was developing with them
"in industry" at the same time (i4004, i8080, MC6800). Instead,
the attitude was "why don't you take one of the VAXEN and use
that, instead...?"

While this seemed insane, at the time, it is amusing to realize
how forward-thinking the approach was: nowadays, a VAX-equivalent
environment is less than a cup of coffee! Why not use them EVERYWHERE?!

On Sun, 15 May 2016 12:08:19 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 5/15/2016 11:42 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
Also, I really prefer free software. It's not about the money (despite how many
people make up that stuff), but about the impediments they put in commercial
software because they ASSUME you're a thief.

I don't see that. I can understand them not wanting you to buy
one copy and use five -- regardless of the reasoning that might "sound
OK" (I like Borland's "like a book" analogy -- so its not necessarily
bound to a machine).

Aside from compiler/debugger, most FOSS applications just aren't up to
par, in my opinion. They are missing capabilities and suffer from
user interfaces that "just happened" instead of "being designed".
Too often, the UI is bolted onto something that wasn't designed
with it in mind. E.g., automatically rewriting rc files instead
of abandoning them (will the app crash if I go in and muck up the file
manually?)

I'm presently drafting a technical letter (no, not an email -- one that
will actually travel on a plane! : ). I wouldn't even think of
using a "productivity suite" (e.g., MSOffice) -- let alone a crippled
FOSS version of same. I'd spend all my time bouncing back and forth
between applications trying to piece together the various graphics
and inserts that I'll need. Instead, I'll do it all in FrameMaker
and have a polished "product", when done.

The appeal free software has to me is that I can *fix* it without
waiting for the vendor to decide "my problem" is worth their
attention. AND, not have to embrace a bunch of other "fixes"/changes
at the same time (which may or may not actually work!).

I can also verify ambiguities in the documentation: "Hmmm... it SAYS
that it does THIS. But, the code shows it doing THAT!"
Free doesn't allways mean open source though - so no code readilly
available- and the EULA for a lot of "free" software prohibits
backward engineering or modifying the code - - - .

On 5/15/2016 1:45 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 May 2016 12:08:19 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 5/15/2016 11:42 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
Also, I really prefer free software. It's not about the money (despite how many
people make up that stuff), but about the impediments they put in commercial
software because they ASSUME you're a thief.

I don't see that. I can understand them not wanting you to buy
one copy and use five -- regardless of the reasoning that might "sound
OK" (I like Borland's "like a book" analogy -- so its not necessarily
bound to a machine).

Aside from compiler/debugger, most FOSS applications just aren't up to
par, in my opinion. They are missing capabilities and suffer from
user interfaces that "just happened" instead of "being designed".
Too often, the UI is bolted onto something that wasn't designed
with it in mind. E.g., automatically rewriting rc files instead
of abandoning them (will the app crash if I go in and muck up the file
manually?)

I'm presently drafting a technical letter (no, not an email -- one that
will actually travel on a plane! : ). I wouldn't even think of
using a "productivity suite" (e.g., MSOffice) -- let alone a crippled
FOSS version of same. I'd spend all my time bouncing back and forth
between applications trying to piece together the various graphics
and inserts that I'll need. Instead, I'll do it all in FrameMaker
and have a polished "product", when done.

The appeal free software has to me is that I can *fix* it without
waiting for the vendor to decide "my problem" is worth their
attention. AND, not have to embrace a bunch of other "fixes"/changes
at the same time (which may or may not actually work!).

I can also verify ambiguities in the documentation: "Hmmm... it SAYS
that it does THIS. But, the code shows it doing THAT!"
Free doesn't allways mean open source though - so no code readilly
available- and the EULA for a lot of "free" software prohibits
backward engineering or modifying the code - - - .

Software that's "free" and not open source is usually on its way to
becoming a "for profit" product. You're just doing them the favor of being
their beta tester...

On Sun, 15 May 2016 14:09:27 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 5/15/2016 1:45 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 May 2016 12:08:19 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 5/15/2016 11:42 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
Also, I really prefer free software. It's not about the money (despite how many
people make up that stuff), but about the impediments they put in commercial
software because they ASSUME you're a thief.

I don't see that. I can understand them not wanting you to buy
one copy and use five -- regardless of the reasoning that might "sound
OK" (I like Borland's "like a book" analogy -- so its not necessarily
bound to a machine).

Aside from compiler/debugger, most FOSS applications just aren't up to
par, in my opinion. They are missing capabilities and suffer from
user interfaces that "just happened" instead of "being designed".
Too often, the UI is bolted onto something that wasn't designed
with it in mind. E.g., automatically rewriting rc files instead
of abandoning them (will the app crash if I go in and muck up the file
manually?)

I'm presently drafting a technical letter (no, not an email -- one that
will actually travel on a plane! : ). I wouldn't even think of
using a "productivity suite" (e.g., MSOffice) -- let alone a crippled
FOSS version of same. I'd spend all my time bouncing back and forth
between applications trying to piece together the various graphics
and inserts that I'll need. Instead, I'll do it all in FrameMaker
and have a polished "product", when done.

The appeal free software has to me is that I can *fix* it without
waiting for the vendor to decide "my problem" is worth their
attention. AND, not have to embrace a bunch of other "fixes"/changes
at the same time (which may or may not actually work!).

I can also verify ambiguities in the documentation: "Hmmm... it SAYS
that it does THIS. But, the code shows it doing THAT!"
Free doesn't allways mean open source though - so no code readilly
available- and the EULA for a lot of "free" software prohibits
backward engineering or modifying the code - - - .

Software that's "free" and not open source is usually on its way to
becoming a "for profit" product. You're just doing them the favor of being
their beta tester...
Ot it's the "teaser" to get you to buy their "full version"

On 05/14/2016 03:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 5/14/2016 1:06 PM, philo wrote:
I started with Linux in the year 2000

Ah. I started with NetBSD in 1993...

from the time I got the CD until I got everything installed and
configured was
...six months.

Having a previous System V machine, here, the learning curve was pretty
trivial (the differences between a Berkeley distribution and AT&T being
relatively minor)

I sure learned a lot though but it was not user friendly at all.

That's why Linux will always be a hobbyist OS. The folks
promoting it can't stop tinkering to spend time to make it
"friendly".



I'm not so sure about that.

When I was doing volunteer work for a local NPO I set up a lot of Linux
machines for the members to use.

I just performed a default installation, made sure there were easy to
get to links on the desktop for several web browsers and just let the
folks use them...giving no special instructions.


They could go for years with no maintenance at all.
All I'd usually have to do is delete Windows executable crapware
downloaded to the desktop.

On 05/14/2016 05:18 PM, notbob wrote:
On 2016-05-14, philo wrote:

from the time I got the CD until I got everything installed and
configured was ...six months.

You bragging or complaining?


Neither.

Although I had previous computer experience back in the punch card
days...I had gotten out of the field entirely by 1982 and had close to
zero experience at the time. Once I learned Win95 I needed a bigger
challenge and that was Linux.

I was so ignorant at the time, i did not even know what a partition was.

Linux was an excellent learning experience.


I sure learned a lot though but it was not user friendly at all.

Define "user friendly". If you mean you have a buncha Windows users
to give you help/info about yer new system, I agee. I've been using
Linux fer almost 13 yrs and never had anyone to help me, so hadda
solve all problems by myself (anda lotta O'Reilly books). In that
respect, Linux is not real user friendly. OTOH, lotta new Linux
distributions (distros) are VERY user friendly. As I mentioned
before, Mint is specially user friendly.

BTW, I can have most any Linux box fully tweaked and running smoothly
within a week or two. As fer Windows, I barely know how to fly XP,
let alone W7-W10.

nb




Yes, as I mentioned in another thread, I just gave unsophisticated users
Linux machines to use and they needed no special instructions

On 5/15/2016 3:07 PM, philo wrote:
On 05/14/2016 03:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 5/14/2016 1:06 PM, philo wrote:
I started with Linux in the year 2000

Ah. I started with NetBSD in 1993...

from the time I got the CD until I got everything installed and
configured was
...six months.

Having a previous System V machine, here, the learning curve was pretty
trivial (the differences between a Berkeley distribution and AT&T being
relatively minor)

I sure learned a lot though but it was not user friendly at all.

That's why Linux will always be a hobbyist OS. The folks
promoting it can't stop tinkering to spend time to make it
"friendly".

I'm not so sure about that.

When I was doing volunteer work for a local NPO I set up a lot of Linux
machines for the members to use.

I just performed a default installation, made sure there were easy to get to
links on the desktop for several web browsers and just let the folks use
them...giving no special instructions.

They could go for years with no maintenance at all.
All I'd usually have to do is delete Windows executable crapware downloaded to
the desktop.

Most people need more than a browser on their computer. Install
iTunes on Linux? PowerPoint-ish tool? Do a mail merge? etc.

If all you want is a browser, you don't need a very sophisticated OS.

On 05/15/2016 05:37 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 5/15/2016 3:07 PM, philo wrote:


I just performed a default installation, made sure there were easy to
get to
links on the desktop for several web browsers and just let the folks use
them...giving no special instructions.

They could go for years with no maintenance at all.
All I'd usually have to do is delete Windows executable crapware
downloaded to
the desktop.

Most people need more than a browser on their computer. Install
iTunes on Linux? PowerPoint-ish tool? Do a mail merge? etc.

If all you want is a browser, you don't need a very sophisticated OS.



Most people I know don't need anything but the basics.


That said, I also don't believe in going through a lot of hoops and
work-arounds.

If something works better and easier on Windows, I don't hesitate to do
so...nor do I proselytize for others to use Linux.

On Sun, 15 May 2016 15:37:21 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 5/15/2016 3:07 PM, philo wrote:
On 05/14/2016 03:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 5/14/2016 1:06 PM, philo wrote:
I started with Linux in the year 2000

Ah. I started with NetBSD in 1993...

from the time I got the CD until I got everything installed and
configured was
...six months.

Having a previous System V machine, here, the learning curve was pretty
trivial (the differences between a Berkeley distribution and AT&T being
relatively minor)

I sure learned a lot though but it was not user friendly at all.

That's why Linux will always be a hobbyist OS. The folks
promoting it can't stop tinkering to spend time to make it
"friendly".

I'm not so sure about that.

When I was doing volunteer work for a local NPO I set up a lot of Linux
machines for the members to use.

I just performed a default installation, made sure there were easy to get to
links on the desktop for several web browsers and just let the folks use
them...giving no special instructions.

They could go for years with no maintenance at all.
All I'd usually have to do is delete Windows executable crapware downloaded to
the desktop.

Most people need more than a browser on their computer. Install
iTunes on Linux? PowerPoint-ish tool? Do a mail merge? etc.

If all you want is a browser, you don't need a very sophisticated OS.
All you need is Chrome

On 05/15/2016 07:17 PM, philo wrote:

[snip]

If something works better and easier on Windows, I don't hesitate to do
so...nor do I proselytize for others to use Linux.

I don't understand those who seem to think you have to do everything on
ONE OS. I like Linux, but have nothing against Windows when something
works better on it.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Of the delights of this world, man cares most for sexual intercourse,
yet he has left it out of his heaven" [Mark Twain]

On 05/15/2016 07:56 PM, wrote:

[snip]

All you need is Chrome

Chrome OS. I prefer to have more control over my system. For one thing,
I DO NOT want to go through GOOGLE just to print a page to the networked
printer 2 feet away.

BTW, same thing for cloud thermostats, etc.. I'm NOT going to have
something like that controlled only by someone else's server.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Of the delights of this world, man cares most for sexual intercourse,
yet he has left it out of his heaven" [Mark Twain]