Got a question regarding the realistic heat output from heat pumps.

Friend of mine living in South Texas has a hydronic heat pump system. Essentially a radiator run off a water heater providing the air handler the source of heat.

Overnight temps typically in the 30's. Daytime temps from the mid 50's to low 70's. Indoors the house struggles to reach 69 degrees.

I understand that heat pump systems aren't as effective as gas fired furnaces in generating heat but does this sound a bit weak?

On 01/20/2016 7:51 AM, Chiefjim wrote:
Got a question regarding the realistic heat output from heat pumps.

Friend of mine living in South Texas has a hydronic heat pump
system. Essentially a radiator run off a water heater providing the
air handlerthe source of heat.

Overnight temps typically in the 30's. Daytime temps from the mid
50's to low 70's. Indoors the house struggles to reach 69 degrees.

I understand that heat pump systems aren't as effective as gas fired
furnaces in generating heat but does this sound a bit weak?

What does this have to do with heat pump? No heat pump in sight here;
and there's nothing anyways close to enough information to judge where
the problems are with the system. Could be simply not a large enough
water heater, could be it's large enough but the heat exchanger isn't
sized adequately or the water flow or simply the setpoint is too low.
Or, perhaps the house isn't insulated and is as leaky as a sieve; no way
to know.

But, whatever it is, comparing to a heat pump isn't the answer.

--

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 9:08:47 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 01/20/2016 7:51 AM, Chiefjim wrote:
Got a question regarding the realistic heat output from heat pumps.

Friend of mine living in South Texas has a hydronic heat pump
system. Essentially a radiator run off a water heater providing the
air handlerthe source of heat.

Overnight temps typically in the 30's. Daytime temps from the mid
50's to low 70's. Indoors the house struggles to reach 69 degrees.

I understand that heat pump systems aren't as effective as gas fired
furnaces in generating heat but does this sound a bit weak?

What does this have to do with heat pump? No heat pump in sight here;
and there's nothing anyways close to enough information to judge where
the problems are with the system. Could be simply not a large enough
water heater, could be it's large enough but the heat exchanger isn't
sized adequately or the water flow or simply the setpoint is too low.
Or, perhaps the house isn't insulated and is as leaky as a sieve; no way
to know.

But, whatever it is, comparing to a heat pump isn't the answer.

--

I assume what he means is that it's a hydronic system that uses an
air source heat pump designed for that purpose. And if it's struggling
at those temps, it's not good. But like you say, not much info to
go on. Like how old? Heat pumps have gotten a lot more efficient
and capable of delivering heat at lower outside temps in recent
years. And are being used in more places in place of propane
or oil systems. Certainly a heat pump system should work well
in South TX climate.

"Chiefjim" wrote in message
...
Got a question regarding the realistic heat output from heat pumps.

Friend of mine living in South Texas has a hydronic heat pump system.
Essentially a radiator run off a water heater providing the air handler
the source of heat.

Overnight temps typically in the 30's. Daytime temps from the mid 50's to
low 70's. Indoors the house struggles to reach 69 degrees.

I understand that heat pump systems aren't as effective as gas fired
furnaces in generating heat but does this sound a bit weak?

From what I understnad about the hydronic system is there is a water
radiator in the heat ducts. This only comes on if the air temperature
comming out of the heat pump coils is not enough to heat the house. Just as
the electric heat strips are for in the more normal heat pump.

If the outside air is only 30 deg, the heat pump should not have any trouble
at all keeping the house at 70 deg provided the house has enough insulation
, which it should if a heat pump is installed.

For many areas the temperature has to drop below 25 deg, maybe even lower
before the cost of operating the heat pump becomes more than gas heat.

It was 18 deg here the last 2 nights and I have the thermostat set at 68
deg at night and 70 during the day and the heat pump has no problem keeping
the heat at that temperature.

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 8:19:42 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 9:08:47 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 01/20/2016 7:51 AM, Chiefjim wrote:
Got a question regarding the realistic heat output from heat pumps.

Friend of mine living in South Texas has a hydronic heat pump
system. Essentially a radiator run off a water heater providing the
air handlerthe source of heat.

Overnight temps typically in the 30's. Daytime temps from the mid
50's to low 70's. Indoors the house struggles to reach 69 degrees.

I understand that heat pump systems aren't as effective as gas fired

furnaces in generating heat but does this sound a bit weak?

What does this have to do with heat pump? No heat pump in sight here;
and there's nothing anyways close to enough information to judge where
the problems are with the system. Could be simply not a large enough
water heater, could be it's large enough but the heat exchanger isn't
sized adequately or the water flow or simply the setpoint is too low.
Or, perhaps the house isn't insulated and is as leaky as a sieve; no way
to know.

But, whatever it is, comparing to a heat pump isn't the answer.

--

I assume what he means is that it's a hydronic system that uses an
air source heat pump designed for that purpose. And if it's struggling
at those temps, it's not good. But like you say, not much info to
go on. Like how old? Heat pumps have gotten a lot more efficient
and capable of delivering heat at lower outside temps in recent
years. And are being used in more places in place of propane
or oil systems. Certainly a heat pump system should work well
in South TX climate.

You are correct. I was mistaken when using the words heat pump. System is hydronic only.

Curious does the water systems on these require any direct maintenance? Such as in hot water baseboard systems some require bleeding of air. Anything like that needed for hydronic systems?

I think the OP is describing something like an Apollo system, where there isn't a separate boiler for heat, but a large domestic hot water heater that runs through the heating coils.

I was skeptical until I saw one installed but that worked fine, in the Virginia climate. If this one isn't keeping up with the Texas climate then something is malfunctioning.

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 11:33:38 AM UTC-6, TimR wrote:
I think the OP is describing something like an Apollo system, where there isn't a separate boiler for heat, but a large domestic hot water heater that runs through the heating coils.

I was skeptical until I saw one installed but that worked fine, in the Virginia climate. If this one isn't keeping up with the Texas climate then something is malfunctioning.

Tim

I should have included that detail. Yes the hot water source is a single large water heater. Following instructions left by the previous owner I opened the valve to allow the water to flow.

On 1/20/2016 8:51 AM, Chiefjim wrote:
Got a question regarding the realistic heat output from heat pumps.

Friend of mine living in South Texas has a hydronic heat pump system. Essentially a radiator run off a water heater providing the air handler the source of heat.

Overnight temps typically in the 30's. Daytime temps from the mid 50's to low 70's. Indoors the house struggles to reach 69 degrees.

I understand that heat pump systems aren't as effective as gas fired furnaces in generating heat but does this sound a bit weak?


Sounds weak, from here. I'm sure I would
have said that if I were alive.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 1/20/16 1:47 PM, Chiefjim wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 11:33:38 AM UTC-6, TimR wrote:
I think the OP is describing something like an Apollo system, where there isn't a separate boiler for heat, but a large domestic hot water heater that runs through the heating coils.

I was skeptical until I saw one installed but that worked fine, in the Virginia climate. If this one isn't keeping up with the Texas climate then something is malfunctioning.

Tim

I should have included that detail. Yes the hot water source is a single large water heater. Following instructions left by the previous owner I opened the valve to allow the water to flow.


My general contractor-- a guy who's being doing excellent work for me
for over 30 years-- says he's never met a homeowner who ended up happy
with a heat pump. He quit installing them many years ago.

--
With all this “gun control” talk, I haven’t heard one politician say how
they plan to take guns away from criminals and terrorists— just from law
abiding citizens…

Chiefjim posted for all of us...



On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 8:19:42 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 9:08:47 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 01/20/2016 7:51 AM, Chiefjim wrote:
Got a question regarding the realistic heat output from heat pumps.

Friend of mine living in South Texas has a hydronic heat pump
system. Essentially a radiator run off a water heater providing the
air handlerthe source of heat.

Overnight temps typically in the 30's. Daytime temps from the mid
50's to low 70's. Indoors the house struggles to reach 69 degrees.

I understand that heat pump systems aren't as effective as gas fired

furnaces in generating heat but does this sound a bit weak?

What does this have to do with heat pump? No heat pump in sight here;
and there's nothing anyways close to enough information to judge where
the problems are with the system. Could be simply not a large enough
water heater, could be it's large enough but the heat exchanger isn't
sized adequately or the water flow or simply the setpoint is too low.
Or, perhaps the house isn't insulated and is as leaky as a sieve; no way
to know.

But, whatever it is, comparing to a heat pump isn't the answer.

--

I assume what he means is that it's a hydronic system that uses an
air source heat pump designed for that purpose. And if it's struggling
at those temps, it's not good. But like you say, not much info to
go on. Like how old? Heat pumps have gotten a lot more efficient
and capable of delivering heat at lower outside temps in recent
years. And are being used in more places in place of propane
or oil systems. Certainly a heat pump system should work well
in South TX climate.

You are correct. I was mistaken when using the words heat pump. System is hydronic only.

Curious does the water systems on these require any direct maintenance? Such as in hot water baseboard systems some require bleeding of air. Anything like that needed for hydronic systems?

Doesn't sound good. Has he had it serviced lately? What is the age of the
system and building? Leaky windows will cut performance. Did he have
satisfaction operation last heating season?

--
Tekkie

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 2:12:23 PM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:


My general contractor-- a guy who's being doing excellent work for me
for over 30 years-- says he's never met a homeowner who ended up happy
with a heat pump. He quit installing them many years ago.


Comfort and low cost to operate - what's not to like? I wouldn't want one in Wisconsin but about anywhere south of there they work fine.

Er, provided you size them correctly and install them correctly. I know you're happy with your contractor but perhaps this wasn't his skill set.

On 01/20/2016 3:12 PM, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 2:12:23 PM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:


My general contractor-- a guy who's being doing excellent work for me
for over 30 years-- says he's never met a homeowner who ended up happy
with a heat pump. He quit installing them many years ago.


Comfort and low cost to operate - what's not to like? I wouldn't
want one in Wisconsin but about anywhere south of there they work fine.

Er, provided you size them correctly and install them correctly. I
know you're happy with your contractor but perhaps this wasn't his
skill set.

And, even in WI, a ground-source rather than air-source will be work
well (albeit at some additional initial installation cost).

--

"TimR" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 2:12:23 PM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:


My general contractor-- a guy who's being doing excellent work for me
for over 30 years-- says he's never met a homeowner who ended up happy
with a heat pump. He quit installing them many years ago.


Comfort and low cost to operate - what's not to like? I wouldn't want one
in Wisconsin but about anywhere south of there they work fine.

Er, provided you size them correctly and install them correctly. I know
you're happy with your contractor but perhaps this wasn't his skill set.

Guess that it depends on where one is at. I am happy with mine and so are
lots of others in the area. Most days are above 30 deg F in the winter. It
does get cold at night. Last two nights was about 15 deg and with the
thermostat set at 68 during the night, it seemed to stay there during the
night.

If one is where it is below 25 deg most of the winter, then it may pay to
look into other sources of heat, or if the electricity is very expensive.

Managed to find the name of the installer and gave them a call. With hints from here and from them I did a little digging.

Checking all the circuit breakers was non-eventful as all seemed fine. Return trip to the water heater closet again showed everything as it should be..

Following instructions from the installer I went to the attic to see if the house inspector had inadvertently closed a valve or opened a switch. Again nothing.

Returned to the thermostat to verify settings. Discovered through the process of elimination that the fan control did not activate when set for AUTO. Instead selecting just the full ON position brought immediate heat. Quickly brought the house to 74!

Leaving the fan selector in the on position I tried lowering the temperature settings. Worked fine.

For now I'm focusing my attention on that programmable thermostat. Figure if she treats it like an older manual variety by raising or lowering directly she'll at least have heat. Just the fan will be circulating air 24/7. I did not open the thermostat housing as I have not found a master shut off switch for the system. Having come this far I'd hate to fry something in the process. Gut feeling now is either the unit was incorrectly wired or perhaps is simply failing.

On 1/20/2016 11:56 AM, Chiefjim wrote:

You are correct. I was mistaken when using the words heat pump. System is hydronic only.

Curious does the water systems on these require any direct maintenance? Such as in hot water baseboard systems some require bleeding of air. Anything like that needed for hydronic systems?


What's the fuel source? Now that I'm dead, I
can check and see if it will be available for
a while longer.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 1/20/2016 5:59 PM, Chiefjim wrote:
Managed to find the name of the installer and gave them a call. With hints from here and from them I did a little digging.

Checking all the circuit breakers was non-eventful as all seemed fine. Return trip to the water heater closet again showed everything as it should be.

Following instructions from the installer I went to the attic to see if the house inspector had inadvertently closed a valve or opened a switch. Again nothing.

Returned to the thermostat to verify settings. Discovered through the process of elimination that the fan control did not activate when set for AUTO. Instead selecting just the full ON position brought immediate heat. Quickly brought the house to 74!

Leaving the fan selector in the on position I tried lowering the temperature settings. Worked fine.

For now I'm focusing my attention on that programmable thermostat. Figure if she treats it like an older manual variety by raising or lowering directly she'll at least have heat. Just the fan will be circulating air 24/7. I did not open the thermostat housing as I have not found a master shut off switch for the system. Having come this far I'd hate to fry something in the process. Gut feeling now is either the unit was incorrectly wired or perhaps is simply failing.


Man, that blows!

This morning, I had the privilege of working
on a miswired furnace. Lucky, I'd done some
heat work while I was alive, and had some idea
how a furnace is supposed to be wired. Beyond
that much information, I'm wise not to comment.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 3:12:27 PM UTC-6, TimR wrote:

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 2:12:23 PM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:


My general contractor-- a guy who's being doing excellent work for me
for over 30 years-- says he's never met a homeowner who ended up happy
with a heat pump. He quit installing them many years ago.


Comfort and low cost to operate - what's not to like? I wouldn't want one in Wisconsin but about anywhere south of there they work fine.

Er, provided you size them correctly and install them correctly. I know you're happy with your contractor but perhaps this wasn't his skill set.


I live in the upper Mid-South and in a 600 s.f. addition I had built onto
the back of my house 8 years ago I had a heat pump installed. The
heat pump does a great job on the addition and it's always toasty
warm back there. I was a bit skeptical at first as the original
portion of the house has a central gas unit installed but I've
been very happy with the heat pump.

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 11:56:08 AM UTC-5, Chiefjim wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 8:19:42 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 9:08:47 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 01/20/2016 7:51 AM, Chiefjim wrote:
Got a question regarding the realistic heat output from heat pumps.

Friend of mine living in South Texas has a hydronic heat pump
system. Essentially a radiator run off a water heater providing the
air handlerthe source of heat.

Overnight temps typically in the 30's. Daytime temps from the mid
50's to low 70's. Indoors the house struggles to reach 69 degrees.

I understand that heat pump systems aren't as effective as gas fired

furnaces in generating heat but does this sound a bit weak?

What does this have to do with heat pump? No heat pump in sight here;
and there's nothing anyways close to enough information to judge where
the problems are with the system. Could be simply not a large enough
water heater, could be it's large enough but the heat exchanger isn't
sized adequately or the water flow or simply the setpoint is too low.
Or, perhaps the house isn't insulated and is as leaky as a sieve; no way
to know.

But, whatever it is, comparing to a heat pump isn't the answer.

--

I assume what he means is that it's a hydronic system that uses an
air source heat pump designed for that purpose. And if it's struggling
at those temps, it's not good. But like you say, not much info to
go on. Like how old? Heat pumps have gotten a lot more efficient
and capable of delivering heat at lower outside temps in recent
years. And are being used in more places in place of propane
or oil systems. Certainly a heat pump system should work well
in South TX climate.

You are correct. I was mistaken when using the words heat pump. System is hydronic only.


Hydronic and what fuel source? You said it was run off a water heater?
Normally a hydronic system is run off a boiler. Sounds like this is
some half-assed DIY system. If it's really a water heater, it likely
doesn't have enough BTUs. Even worse if it's electric.


Curious does the water systems on these require any direct maintenance? Such as in hot water baseboard systems some require bleeding of air. Anything like that needed for hydronic systems?

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 5:59:27 PM UTC-5, Chiefjim wrote:
Managed to find the name of the installer and gave them a call. With hints from here and from them I did a little digging.

Checking all the circuit breakers was non-eventful as all seemed fine. Return trip to the water heater closet again showed everything as it should be.

Following instructions from the installer I went to the attic to see if the house inspector had inadvertently closed a valve or opened a switch. Again nothing.

Returned to the thermostat to verify settings. Discovered through the process of elimination that the fan control did not activate when set for AUTO. Instead selecting just the full ON position brought immediate heat. Quickly brought the house to 74!

Leaving the fan selector in the on position I tried lowering the temperature settings. Worked fine.

For now I'm focusing my attention on that programmable thermostat. Figure if she treats it like an older manual variety by raising or lowering directly she'll at least have heat. Just the fan will be circulating air 24/7. I did not open the thermostat housing as I have not found a master shut off switch for the system. Having come this far I'd hate to fry something in the process. Gut feeling now is either the unit was incorrectly wired or perhaps is simply failing.

Every thermostat I've ever had, the thermostat did not activate the fan for
heating or cooling. That was done by the furnace/AC, etc. The thermostat
only activates the fan itself when you put on the fan switch to make the
fan run regardless of the burner/AC.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 05:33:57 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 11:56:08 AM UTC-5, Chiefjim wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 8:19:42 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 9:08:47 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 01/20/2016 7:51 AM, Chiefjim wrote:
Got a question regarding the realistic heat output from heat pumps.

Friend of mine living in South Texas has a hydronic heat pump
system. Essentially a radiator run off a water heater providing the
air handlerthe source of heat.

Overnight temps typically in the 30's. Daytime temps from the mid
50's to low 70's. Indoors the house struggles to reach 69 degrees.

I understand that heat pump systems aren't as effective as gas fired

furnaces in generating heat but does this sound a bit weak?

What does this have to do with heat pump? No heat pump in sight here;
and there's nothing anyways close to enough information to judge where
the problems are with the system. Could be simply not a large enough
water heater, could be it's large enough but the heat exchanger isn't
sized adequately or the water flow or simply the setpoint is too low.
Or, perhaps the house isn't insulated and is as leaky as a sieve; no way
to know.

But, whatever it is, comparing to a heat pump isn't the answer.

--

I assume what he means is that it's a hydronic system that uses an
air source heat pump designed for that purpose. And if it's struggling
at those temps, it's not good. But like you say, not much info to
go on. Like how old? Heat pumps have gotten a lot more efficient
and capable of delivering heat at lower outside temps in recent
years. And are being used in more places in place of propane
or oil systems. Certainly a heat pump system should work well
in South TX climate.

You are correct. I was mistaken when using the words heat pump. System is hydronic only.


Hydronic and what fuel source? You said it was run off a water heater?
Normally a hydronic system is run off a boiler. Sounds like this is
some half-assed DIY system. If it's really a water heater, it likely
doesn't have enough BTUs. Even worse if it's electric.


Curious does the water systems on these require any direct maintenance? Such as in hot water baseboard systems some require bleeding of air. Anything like that needed for hydronic systems?

These systems are common in the South. Gas fired water heater feeds the
heat coil and seem to be good and reasonable systems.
--
Mr.E

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 05:37:02 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 5:59:27 PM UTC-5, Chiefjim wrote:
Managed to find the name of the installer and gave them a call. With hints from here and from them I did a little digging.

Checking all the circuit breakers was non-eventful as all seemed fine. Return trip to the water heater closet again showed everything as it should be.

Following instructions from the installer I went to the attic to see if the house inspector had inadvertently closed a valve or opened a switch. Again nothing.

Returned to the thermostat to verify settings. Discovered through the process of elimination that the fan control did not activate when set for AUTO. Instead selecting just the full ON position brought immediate heat. Quickly brought the house to 74!

Leaving the fan selector in the on position I tried lowering the temperature settings. Worked fine.

For now I'm focusing my attention on that programmable thermostat. Figure if she treats it like an older manual variety by raising or lowering directly she'll at least have heat. Just the fan will be circulating air 24/7. I did not open the thermostat housing as I have not found a master shut off switch for the system. Having come this far I'd hate to fry something in the process. Gut feeling now is either the unit was incorrectly wired or perhaps is simply failing.

Every thermostat I've ever had, the thermostat did not activate the fan for
heating or cooling. That was done by the furnace/AC, etc. The thermostat
only activates the fan itself when you put on the fan switch to make the
fan run regardless of the burner/AC.

Check if a thermostat option will bring on the heat circulation fan as
is normally done with the cool.
--
Mr.E

On 1/20/16 4:12 PM, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 2:12:23 PM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:


My general contractor-- a guy who's being doing excellent work for me
for over 30 years-- says he's never met a homeowner who ended up happy
with a heat pump. He quit installing them many years ago.


Comfort and low cost to operate - what's not to like? I wouldn't want one in Wisconsin but about anywhere south of there they work fine.

Er, provided you size them correctly and install them correctly. I know you're happy with your contractor but perhaps this wasn't his skill set.


Considering the comments to my post...could be...

--
“You cannot push anyone up the ladder unless he is willing to climb.”
- Andrew Carnegie

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 8:57:17 AM UTC-5, Mr.E wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 05:33:57 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 11:56:08 AM UTC-5, Chiefjim wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 8:19:42 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 9:08:47 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 01/20/2016 7:51 AM, Chiefjim wrote:
Got a question regarding the realistic heat output from heat pumps.

Friend of mine living in South Texas has a hydronic heat pump
system. Essentially a radiator run off a water heater providing the
air handlerthe source of heat.

Overnight temps typically in the 30's. Daytime temps from the mid
50's to low 70's. Indoors the house struggles to reach 69 degrees.

I understand that heat pump systems aren't as effective as gas fired

furnaces in generating heat but does this sound a bit weak?

What does this have to do with heat pump? No heat pump in sight here;
and there's nothing anyways close to enough information to judge where
the problems are with the system. Could be simply not a large enough
water heater, could be it's large enough but the heat exchanger isn't
sized adequately or the water flow or simply the setpoint is too low.
Or, perhaps the house isn't insulated and is as leaky as a sieve; no way
to know.

But, whatever it is, comparing to a heat pump isn't the answer.

--

I assume what he means is that it's a hydronic system that uses an
air source heat pump designed for that purpose. And if it's struggling
at those temps, it's not good. But like you say, not much info to
go on. Like how old? Heat pumps have gotten a lot more efficient
and capable of delivering heat at lower outside temps in recent
years. And are being used in more places in place of propane
or oil systems. Certainly a heat pump system should work well
in South TX climate.

You are correct. I was mistaken when using the words heat pump. System is hydronic only.


Hydronic and what fuel source? You said it was run off a water heater?
Normally a hydronic system is run off a boiler. Sounds like this is
some half-assed DIY system. If it's really a water heater, it likely
doesn't have enough BTUs. Even worse if it's electric.


Curious does the water systems on these require any direct maintenance? Such as in hot water baseboard systems some require bleeding of air. Anything like that needed for hydronic systems?

These systems are common in the South. Gas fired water heater feeds the
heat coil and seem to be good and reasonable systems.
--
Mr.E

I guess it can be used down there, while it's not used here in the
northeast because of the more moderate climate and lower BTUs required.

On 01/21/2016 9:32 AM, Wade Garrett wrote:
On 1/20/16 4:12 PM, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 2:12:23 PM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:


My general contractor-- a guy who's being doing excellent work for me
for over 30 years-- says he's never met a homeowner who ended up happy
with a heat pump. He quit installing them many years ago.


Comfort and low cost to operate - what's not to like? I wouldn't want
one in Wisconsin but about anywhere south of there they work fine.

Er, provided you size them correctly and install them correctly. I
know you're happy with your contractor but perhaps this wasn't his
skill set.


Considering the comments to my post...could be...

Your guy may be different, but I never meet a general contractor who,
without real pressure from the client which doesn't happen on anything
except a custom build or a spec-built contracted for sale, didn't use
the cheapest system he could get. House in TN was that way when we
bought it; the initial HP (air exchange) was minimally sized and very
low efficiency and we were, consequently, much like your homeowner class
above. Was our first experience with a heat pump; we were not impressed.

But, when it failed after some 15 year or so, we still didn't have NG in
the subdivision and weren't any time _real_soon_now_ (tm) and didn't
really much cotton to having to have the LP tank so we bit the bullet
and installed a ground-source HP (Water Furnace brand). While the
excavation cost was high because we had to do it around existing drain
fields, etc., etc., instead of as part of new construction, when
finished it outperformed the old HP even on its best, early-life
efficiency by at least a third plus with the waste heat from A/C cycle
for ho****er option, it supplied essentially "free" hot water during
warm weather. And, exit air temp's from the floor vents, while not
quite what one gets from gas/oil forced air, were warm enough there was
none of that "chill factor" effect one got from the air-exchange unit
that was just above room temperature. Plus, the backup resistance
heating units were tied into an outside thermistor to keep them from
kicking on at anything above 15F or so and even on the few days there
down to 0F they never kicked on.

Newer air-exchange units are far better now that 35 year ago or so when
this system was new, but if I were doing new construction anywhere that
cheap NG isn't available I'd surely investigate thoroughly the option of
ground source HP.

--

Wade Garrett wrote:
On 1/20/16 1:47 PM, Chiefjim wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 11:33:38 AM UTC-6, TimR wrote:
I think the OP is describing something like an Apollo system, where
there isn't a separate boiler for heat, but a large domestic hot
water heater that runs through the heating coils. I was skeptical until I
saw one installed but that worked fine, in
the Virginia climate. If this one isn't keeping up with the Texas
climate then something is malfunctioning.

Tim

I should have included that detail. Yes the hot water source is a
single large water heater. Following instructions left by the
previous owner I opened the valve to allow the water to flow.

My general contractor-- a guy who's being doing excellent work for me
for over 30 years-- says he's never met a homeowner who ended up happy
with a heat pump. He quit installing them many years ago.

Amazing followup to a post disclaiming any connection of the OP's problem to a
heat pump.

trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 5:59:27 PM UTC-5, Chiefjim wrote:
Managed to find the name of the installer and gave them a call.
With hints from here and from them I did a little digging.

Checking all the circuit breakers was non-eventful as all seemed
fine. Return trip to the water heater closet again showed
everything as it should be.

Following instructions from the installer I went to the attic to see
if the house inspector had inadvertently closed a valve or opened a
switch. Again nothing.

Returned to the thermostat to verify settings. Discovered through
the process of elimination that the fan control did not activate
when set for AUTO. Instead selecting just the full ON position
brought immediate heat. Quickly brought the house to 74!

Leaving the fan selector in the on position I tried lowering the
temperature settings. Worked fine.

For now I'm focusing my attention on that programmable thermostat.
Figure if she treats it like an older manual variety by raising or
lowering directly she'll at least have heat. Just the fan will be
circulating air 24/7. I did not open the thermostat housing as I
have not found a master shut off switch for the system. Having come
this far I'd hate to fry something in the process. Gut feeling now
is either the unit was incorrectly wired or perhaps is simply
failing.

Every thermostat I've ever had, the thermostat did not activate the
fan for
heating or cooling. That was done by the furnace/AC, etc. The
thermostat
only activates the fan itself when you put on the fan switch to make
the
fan run regardless of the burner/AC.

If this unit has a temp sensor near the heating water radiator that turns on the
fan when the water has heated it up, that could be bad. Or, the water heater
temp could be set too low to activate it.

trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 8:57:17 AM UTC-5, Mr.E wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 05:33:57 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 11:56:08 AM UTC-5, Chiefjim wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 8:19:42 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 9:08:47 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 01/20/2016 7:51 AM, Chiefjim wrote:
Got a question regarding the realistic heat output from heat
pumps.

Friend of mine living in South Texas has a hydronic heat pump
system. Essentially a radiator run off a water heater providing
the air handlerthe source of heat.

Overnight temps typically in the 30's. Daytime temps from the
mid 50's to low 70's. Indoors the house struggles to reach 69
degrees.

I understand that heat pump systems aren't as effective as gas
fired

furnaces in generating heat but does this sound a bit weak?

What does this have to do with heat pump? No heat pump in sight
here; and there's nothing anyways close to enough information to
judge where the problems are with the system. Could be simply
not a large enough water heater, could be it's large enough but
the heat exchanger isn't sized adequately or the water flow or
simply the setpoint is too low. Or, perhaps the house isn't
insulated and is as leaky as a sieve; no way to know.

But, whatever it is, comparing to a heat pump isn't the answer.

--

I assume what he means is that it's a hydronic system that uses an
air source heat pump designed for that purpose. And if it's
struggling at those temps, it's not good. But like you say, not
much info to
go on. Like how old? Heat pumps have gotten a lot more efficient
and capable of delivering heat at lower outside temps in recent
years. And are being used in more places in place of propane
or oil systems. Certainly a heat pump system should work well
in South TX climate.

You are correct. I was mistaken when using the words heat pump.
System is hydronic only.


Hydronic and what fuel source? You said it was run off a water
heater? Normally a hydronic system is run off a boiler. Sounds
like this is some half-assed DIY system. If it's really a water
heater, it likely doesn't have enough BTUs. Even worse if it's
electric.


Curious does the water systems on these require any direct
maintenance? Such as in hot water baseboard systems some require
bleeding of air. Anything like that needed for hydronic systems?

These systems are common in the South. Gas fired water heater feeds
the heat coil and seem to be good and reasonable systems.
--
Mr.E

I guess it can be used down there, while it's not used here in the
northeast because of the more moderate climate and lower BTUs
required.

All it needs is a big enough water heater and heat exchanger. I've seen a
similar system in a condo in Seattle, with small wall mounted heat
exchanger/fans/thermostats in each room.

On 01/22/2016 2:55 PM, Bob F wrote:
....

Amazing followup to a post disclaiming any connection of the OP's problem to a
heat pump.

Excepting, of course, that the whole subthread is with another
respondent who wasn't OP...and hence, has nothing whatsoever to do with
the original subject. "Thread drift".

--

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 7:34:05 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 11:56:08 AM UTC-5, Chiefjim wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 8:19:42 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 9:08:47 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 01/20/2016 7:51 AM, Chiefjim wrote:
Got a question regarding the realistic heat output from heat pumps.

Friend of mine living in South Texas has a hydronic heat pump
system. Essentially a radiator run off a water heater providing the
air handlerthe source of heat.

Overnight temps typically in the 30's. Daytime temps from the mid
50's to low 70's. Indoors the house struggles to reach 69 degrees.

I understand that heat pump systems aren't as effective as gas fired

furnaces in generating heat but does this sound a bit weak?

What does this have to do with heat pump? No heat pump in sight here;
and there's nothing anyways close to enough information to judge where
the problems are with the system. Could be simply not a large enough
water heater, could be it's large enough but the heat exchanger isn't
sized adequately or the water flow or simply the setpoint is too low.
Or, perhaps the house isn't insulated and is as leaky as a sieve; no way
to know.

But, whatever it is, comparing to a heat pump isn't the answer.

--
I assume what he means is that it's a hydronic system that uses an
air source heat pump designed for that purpose. And if it's struggling
at those temps, it's not good. But like you say, not much info to
go on. Like how old? Heat pumps have gotten a lot more efficient
and capable of delivering heat at lower outside temps in recent
years. And are being used in more places in place of propane
or oil systems. Certainly a heat pump system should work well
in South TX climate.

You are correct. I was mistaken when using the words heat pump. System is hydronic only.

Hydronic and what fuel source? You said it was run off a water heater?
Normally a hydronic system is run off a boiler. Sounds like this is
some half-assed DIY system. If it's really a water heater, it likely
doesn't have enough BTUs. Even worse if it's electric.

Curious does the water systems on these require any direct maintenance? Such as in hot water baseboard systems some require bleeding of air. Anything like that needed for hydronic systems?

There are some homes in this area heated using a large electric water heater connected to a heat exchanger "radiator" above the evaporator on the air handler. I don't know about the efficiency but there must be some advantage to using a single source of heat for hot water and for heating the home. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Hot Monster

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 7:37:06 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 5:59:27 PM UTC-5, Chiefjim wrote:
Managed to find the name of the installer and gave them a call. With hints from here and from them I did a little digging.

Checking all the circuit breakers was non-eventful as all seemed fine. Return trip to the water heater closet again showed everything as it should be.

Following instructions from the installer I went to the attic to see if the house inspector had inadvertently closed a valve or opened a switch. Again nothing.

Returned to the thermostat to verify settings. Discovered through the process of elimination that the fan control did not activate when set for AUTO. Instead selecting just the full ON position brought immediate heat. Quickly brought the house to 74!

Leaving the fan selector in the on position I tried lowering the temperature settings. Worked fine.

For now I'm focusing my attention on that programmable thermostat. Figure if she treats it like an older manual variety by raising or lowering directly she'll at least have heat. Just the fan will be circulating air 24/7. I did not open the thermostat housing as I have not found a master shut off switch for the system. Having come this far I'd hate to fry something in the process. Gut feeling now is either the unit was incorrectly wired or perhaps is simply failing.

Every thermostat I've ever had, the thermostat did not activate the fan for
heating or cooling. That was done by the furnace/AC, etc. The thermostat
only activates the fan itself when you put on the fan switch to make the
fan run regardless of the burner/AC.

All the thermostats I've ever dealt with activate the fan immediately when in AC mode. When the the thermostat is in heat mode, the fan thermostat in the furnace controls the fan. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Fan Monster

Time to wrap this topic up. Appreciate all the suggestions received along the way. In the end I discovered the problem centered around the thermostat. A perfectly fine thermostat as it was.

The thermostat being oem grade supplied with the heating system did not have battery backup. Hence most likely when the home inspector was doing his job the controlling circuit breaker got cycled. Without benefit of battery backup to hold the settings the device defaulted to factory settings.

Default in heat mode calls for a signal from the furnace or boiler to turn on the circulating fan. This system operating more like electric heating did not need to wait for that signal which would never come. A simple change in the installer setup routine for the thermostat fixed it.

In summary a challenge that took days to identify took about 30 seconds to apply the fix.