The cellar floor slab is formed and ready to pour ... coming next will be
the (heavy) block walls . Got the rebar and filled columns figured out ,
next up is the attachment of the floor joists to the top of said wall . The
plan is to set some carriage bolts into the top run of block at suitable
intervals and use those to secure a 2X plate - width TBD . I'll want to be
able to secure a ceiling of some type to an overhanging top plate ,
independent of the structure above - this will also serve as a storm shelter
..
The question is , how best to secure the floor joists to that same top
plate , so that they are both stable and secure and yet if a storm strong
enough comes thru to part without taking my ceiling with it . Or , should I
use the floor structure as the top/ceiling , and let the wall/floor
interface part if it comes to a tornado etc ? We're actually pretty
sheltered , down in a pretty deep bowl - when the tornado took out half of
the nearest town (and many others on it's way to here) it skipped over The
Holler , all we got was some torn up trees .
Possibly pertinent detail - the bottom part of the structure - probably up
to window sill height- will be clad with native stone . Probably 5-6" thick
, depending on what I collect and bedded on a footing 16" below grade -
frost line is at around 12" .
--
Snag

On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 23:21:41 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

The cellar floor slab is formed and ready to pour ... coming next will be
the (heavy) block walls . Got the rebar and filled columns figured out ,
next up is the attachment of the floor joists to the top of said wall . The
plan is to set some carriage bolts into the top run of block at suitable
intervals and use those to secure a 2X plate - width TBD . I'll want to be
able to secure a ceiling of some type to an overhanging top plate ,
independent of the structure above - this will also serve as a storm shelter
.
The question is , how best to secure the floor joists to that same top
plate , so that they are both stable and secure and yet if a storm strong
enough comes thru to part without taking my ceiling with it . Or , should I
use the floor structure as the top/ceiling , and let the wall/floor
interface part if it comes to a tornado etc ? We're actually pretty
sheltered , down in a pretty deep bowl - when the tornado took out half of
the nearest town (and many others on it's way to here) it skipped over The
Holler , all we got was some torn up trees .
Possibly pertinent detail - the bottom part of the structure - probably up
to window sill height- will be clad with native stone . Probably 5-6" thick
, depending on what I collect and bedded on a footing 16" below grade -
frost line is at around 12" .

If you are really going to make this strong you pour a bond beam on
top, one or two courses of "U" block with 2 #5 rebar in it, with rebar
hooks tied to the horizontal rebar and tied to the ones coming up.
Then you pour those 2 solid.
Simpson also makes connectors to attach the studs to the plate, the
top plate to the studs and then up over the trusses.

I think they have the whole system on the web site.

I don't see much that is stick built around here. It is block all the
way up.

On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 2:01:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Since he lives in a tornado area and is building a whole new house,
wouldn't it be a better and probably simpler idea to build a small
tornado shelter room that will be underground, off the basement,
that's independent of the house above it?

On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 7:22:56 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 2:01:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Since he lives in a tornado area and is building a whole new house,
wouldn't it be a better and probably simpler idea to build a small
tornado shelter room that will be underground, off the basement,
that's independent of the house above it?

Back in the 90's I was working on a generator installation at the home of a fairly well off fellow who had a fallout shelter in his basement built sometime in the late 50's or early 60's. It was solid concrete and I'm sure a tornado could suck the home up to the land of Oz and the fallout shelter would still be there. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Shelter Monster

On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 12:21:22 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
The cellar floor slab is formed and ready to pour ... coming next will be
the (heavy) block walls . Got the rebar and filled columns figured out ,
next up is the attachment of the floor joists to the top of said wall . The
plan is to set some carriage bolts into the top run of block at suitable
intervals and use those to secure a 2X plate - width TBD . I'll want to be
able to secure a ceiling of some type to an overhanging top plate ,
independent of the structure above - this will also serve as a storm shelter
.
The question is , how best to secure the floor joists to that same top
plate , so that they are both stable and secure and yet if a storm strong
enough comes thru to part without taking my ceiling with it . Or , should I
use the floor structure as the top/ceiling , and let the wall/floor
interface part if it comes to a tornado etc ? We're actually pretty
sheltered , down in a pretty deep bowl - when the tornado took out half of
the nearest town (and many others on it's way to here) it skipped over The
Holler , all we got was some torn up trees .
Possibly pertinent detail - the bottom part of the structure - probably up
to window sill height- will be clad with native stone . Probably 5-6" thick
, depending on what I collect and bedded on a footing 16" below grade -
frost line is at around 12" .
--
Snag

you need to hire a structural engineer forthe best alternatives and specifications

trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 2:01:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Since he lives in a tornado area and is building a whole new house,
wouldn't it be a better and probably simpler idea to build a small
tornado shelter room that will be underground, off the basement,
that's independent of the house above it?

We're not so much a tornado area , but we do get some from time to time . A
bigger concern is the ice storms in winter .
As far as a separate room , the cost makes that a non-solution . We're
building on a budget ... This cellar will be about halfway in the ground ,
and the plan is to push the soil removed kind of up the sides of the
cellar - ground will slope away on 3 sides and the 4th is to be decided .
Entry door details are still tbd , but I'm hesitant to just hang a regular
vertical door . IMO best option will be stairs with sloped doors , one door
set up to it can be opened from inside if necessary - probably a removable
panel or something .
--
Snag

bob haller wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 12:21:22 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
The cellar floor slab is formed and ready to pour ... coming next
will be the (heavy) block walls . Got the rebar and filled columns
figured out , next up is the attachment of the floor joists to the
top of said wall . The plan is to set some carriage bolts into the
top run of block at suitable intervals and use those to secure a 2X
plate - width TBD . I'll want to be able to secure a ceiling of some
type to an overhanging top plate , independent of the structure
above - this will also serve as a storm shelter .
The question is , how best to secure the floor joists to that same
top plate , so that they are both stable and secure and yet if a
storm strong enough comes thru to part without taking my ceiling
with it . Or , should I use the floor structure as the top/ceiling ,
and let the wall/floor interface part if it comes to a tornado etc ?
We're actually pretty sheltered , down in a pretty deep bowl - when
the tornado took out half of the nearest town (and many others on
it's way to here) it skipped over The Holler , all we got was some
torn up trees . Possibly pertinent detail - the bottom part of the
structure - probably up to window sill height- will be clad with
native stone . Probably 5-6" thick , depending on what I collect and
bedded on a footing 16" below grade - frost line is at around 12" .
--
Snag

you need to hire a structural engineer forthe best alternatives and
specifications

Thanks for your opinion bob . I've been in building trades for forty years
, and some of the most ****ed up messes I've ever seen were designed by
"structural engineers" and "architects" . I trust my own design capabilities
, just trying to decide where to put the "weak link" in this assembly . As
far as load calculations and truss design type stuff -, there are great
calculators available on line ...

--
Snag

I can't imagine what kind of ceiling is going to stick
around after the floor joists have blown off, except
maybe a concrete slab.

Can anything wood resist the forces of a tornado?
I don't know. I'd expect you'd need a lot of bracing if
you wanted to try.

You could do something like anchor the joists to
the sill plate bolts with steel brackets. gfretwell
mentioned Simpson ties. They do have hurricane
ties for decks, but with those any pull is against
the tie itself, so they're very strong even though
they're not so thick. If you use ties to the sill plate then
the resistance to pull will be weaker because it will
be pulling the nail out. So I guess if it were me I'd
want the joists anchored to the actual bolts coming
out of the foundation wall, and then put 3/4" plywood
on the bottom of the joists. The idea that comes to
mind would be a thick angle iron, possibly even folding
over the top of the joist. Custom made, probably.

But if you're building a new house then why not
build the whole thing with extensive bracing and
interconnections? I would think there must be officially
tested methods for that, just as there are for
earthquakes.



"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
| The cellar floor slab is formed and ready to pour ... coming next will
be
| the (heavy) block walls . Got the rebar and filled columns figured out ,
| next up is the attachment of the floor joists to the top of said wall .
The
| plan is to set some carriage bolts into the top run of block at suitable
| intervals and use those to secure a 2X plate - width TBD . I'll want to be
| able to secure a ceiling of some type to an overhanging top plate ,
| independent of the structure above - this will also serve as a storm
shelter
| .
| The question is , how best to secure the floor joists to that same top
| plate , so that they are both stable and secure and yet if a storm strong
| enough comes thru to part without taking my ceiling with it . Or , should
I
| use the floor structure as the top/ceiling , and let the wall/floor
| interface part if it comes to a tornado etc ? We're actually pretty
| sheltered , down in a pretty deep bowl - when the tornado took out half of
| the nearest town (and many others on it's way to here) it skipped over The
| Holler , all we got was some torn up trees .
| Possibly pertinent detail - the bottom part of the structure - probably
up
| to window sill height- will be clad with native stone . Probably 5-6"
thick
| , depending on what I collect and bedded on a footing 16" below grade -
| frost line is at around 12" .
| --
| Snag
|
|

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 08:09:02 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 2:01:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Since he lives in a tornado area and is building a whole new house,
wouldn't it be a better and probably simpler idea to build a small
tornado shelter room that will be underground, off the basement,
that's independent of the house above it?

We're not so much a tornado area , but we do get some from time to time . A
bigger concern is the ice storms in winter .
As far as a separate room , the cost makes that a non-solution . We're
building on a budget ... This cellar will be about halfway in the ground ,
and the plan is to push the soil removed kind of up the sides of the
cellar - ground will slope away on 3 sides and the 4th is to be decided .
Entry door details are still tbd , but I'm hesitant to just hang a regular
vertical door . IMO best option will be stairs with sloped doors , one door
set up to it can be opened from inside if necessary - probably a removable
panel or something .

The wind code in coastal florida is 150-170 mph and that gets you up
into the low end (F2-3) of tornado speeds so the idea that you should
count on the house blowing away may be over stated. You certainly want
a shelter you can get out of if it does come down tho. That is why
they usually dug a hole out away from the house for the shelter.

On doors you have two issues. For the best wind speed protection, you
want doors that open out but for the best egress with debris outside,
you want one that opens in. You may want a door and a hardened window
at grade. I think that if I was really making a tornado shelter it
would just be a room with a concrete ceiling.. FEMA has plans on their
web site. The time to do it is before you top out your block so you
can get the right tie beam configuration. You will be blocking up a
couple of walls inside too.

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 08:17:51 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 12:21:22 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
The cellar floor slab is formed and ready to pour ... coming next
will be the (heavy) block walls . Got the rebar and filled columns
figured out , next up is the attachment of the floor joists to the
top of said wall . The plan is to set some carriage bolts into the
top run of block at suitable intervals and use those to secure a 2X
plate - width TBD . I'll want to be able to secure a ceiling of some
type to an overhanging top plate , independent of the structure
above - this will also serve as a storm shelter .
The question is , how best to secure the floor joists to that same
top plate , so that they are both stable and secure and yet if a
storm strong enough comes thru to part without taking my ceiling
with it . Or , should I use the floor structure as the top/ceiling ,
and let the wall/floor interface part if it comes to a tornado etc ?
We're actually pretty sheltered , down in a pretty deep bowl - when
the tornado took out half of the nearest town (and many others on
it's way to here) it skipped over The Holler , all we got was some
torn up trees . Possibly pertinent detail - the bottom part of the
structure - probably up to window sill height- will be clad with
native stone . Probably 5-6" thick , depending on what I collect and
bedded on a footing 16" below grade - frost line is at around 12" .
--
Snag

you need to hire a structural engineer forthe best alternatives and
specifications

Thanks for your opinion bob . I've been in building trades for forty years
, and some of the most ****ed up messes I've ever seen were designed by
"structural engineers" and "architects" . I trust my own design capabilities
, just trying to decide where to put the "weak link" in this assembly . As
far as load calculations and truss design type stuff -, there are great
calculators available on line ...

The last time I hired an engineer, required by the plan review in my
county, the guy ended up using my plans and some details he got from
the state, after his plan was rejected twice.

These codes are changing rapidly and usually the state construction
boards have details that they want to see on plans that they hand out
to engineers.. It simply becomes "cut and paste" on that big copier
they have. This guy ended up using my plan in the middle of the
documents and ringed it with the appropriate details from the state.
It sailed right through because plan review saw what they are used to
seeing.

On 10/9/2015 7:22 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 2:01:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Since he lives in a tornado area and is building a whole new house,
wouldn't it be a better and probably simpler idea to build a small
tornado shelter room that will be underground, off the basement,
that's independent of the house above it?


There's no really perfect place to build a tornado shelter. A house or
debris could fall on the entrance and people would be trapped. I think
a good idea would be to build a couple of access entrances to an under
ground shelter. Store food, lights, batteries, a working cell phone, and
other essentials in the shelter. I'd love to have a tornado shelter,
but they're so darn expensive.

--
Maggie

On 10/9/2015 7:35 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 7:22:56 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 2:01:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Since he lives in a tornado area and is building a whole new house,
wouldn't it be a better and probably simpler idea to build a small
tornado shelter room that will be underground, off the basement,
that's independent of the house above it?

Back in the 90's I was working on a generator installation at the home of a fairly well off fellow who had a fallout shelter in his basement built sometime in the late 50's or early 60's. It was solid concrete and I'm sure a tornado could suck the home up to the land of Oz and the fallout shelter would still be there. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Shelter Monster


Back in the 90's I was raising kids. I was outnumbered, and searching
for ways to talk to grown-ups without saying everything twice. "No NO!"
"Stop that! STOP that!"

--
Maggie

On 10/9/2015 8:09 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 2:01:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Since he lives in a tornado area and is building a whole new house,
wouldn't it be a better and probably simpler idea to build a small
tornado shelter room that will be underground, off the basement,
that's independent of the house above it?

We're not so much a tornado area , but we do get some from time to time . A
bigger concern is the ice storms in winter .
As far as a separate room , the cost makes that a non-solution . We're
building on a budget ... This cellar will be about halfway in the ground ,
and the plan is to push the soil removed kind of up the sides of the
cellar - ground will slope away on 3 sides and the 4th is to be decided .
Entry door details are still tbd , but I'm hesitant to just hang a regular
vertical door . IMO best option will be stairs with sloped doors , one door
set up to it can be opened from inside if necessary - probably a removable
panel or something .


If you're going to use it as a shelter, I'd suggest building in more
than one escape route.

--
Maggie

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 10:40:51 -0500, Muggles wrote:

On 10/9/2015 7:22 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 2:01:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Since he lives in a tornado area and is building a whole new house,
wouldn't it be a better and probably simpler idea to build a small
tornado shelter room that will be underground, off the basement,
that's independent of the house above it?


There's no really perfect place to build a tornado shelter. A house or
debris could fall on the entrance and people would be trapped. I think
a good idea would be to build a couple of access entrances to an under
ground shelter. Store food, lights, batteries, a working cell phone, and
other essentials in the shelter. I'd love to have a tornado shelter,
but they're so darn expensive.

At the early construction phase, adding a hardened safe room does not
add that much incremental cost.

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 02:01:22 -0400, wrote:

Simpson also makes connectors to attach the studs to the plate, the
top plate to the studs and then up over the trusses.

+1

PDF:

_Catalog: Wood Construction Connectors 2015-2016_

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/

On 10/9/2015 10:57 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 10:40:51 -0500, Muggles wrote:

On 10/9/2015 7:22 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 2:01:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Since he lives in a tornado area and is building a whole new house,
wouldn't it be a better and probably simpler idea to build a small
tornado shelter room that will be underground, off the basement,
that's independent of the house above it?


There's no really perfect place to build a tornado shelter. A house or
debris could fall on the entrance and people would be trapped. I think
a good idea would be to build a couple of access entrances to an under
ground shelter. Store food, lights, batteries, a working cell phone, and
other essentials in the shelter. I'd love to have a tornado shelter,
but they're so darn expensive.

At the early construction phase, adding a hardened safe room does not
add that much incremental cost.


That's a good thing. If it can be done at that stage I think it's a
good idea. Better to have a safe room like that and never need it.

--
Maggie

Muggles wrote:
On 10/9/2015 8:09 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 2:01:46 AM UTC-4,
wrote:

Since he lives in a tornado area and is building a whole new house,
wouldn't it be a better and probably simpler idea to build a small
tornado shelter room that will be underground, off the basement,
that's independent of the house above it?

We're not so much a tornado area , but we do get some from time to
time . A bigger concern is the ice storms in winter .
As far as a separate room , the cost makes that a non-solution .
We're building on a budget ... This cellar will be about halfway in
the ground , and the plan is to push the soil removed kind of up the
sides of the cellar - ground will slope away on 3 sides and the 4th
is to be decided . Entry door details are still tbd , but I'm
hesitant to just hang a regular vertical door . IMO best option will
be stairs with sloped doors , one door set up to it can be opened
from inside if necessary - probably a removable panel or something .


If you're going to use it as a shelter, I'd suggest building in more
than one escape route.

Of course ! Not certain of the exact location yet , but there is a hatch
and ladder planned for access from the kitchen pantry above . As soon as the
wife makes her decision on cabinet/island/ etc layout that will be firmed up
.. She can't envision from a drawing , I'll have to lay it out on the floor
for her ... some people just don't have that ability .

--
Snag

On 10/9/2015 11:32 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Muggles wrote:
On 10/9/2015 8:09 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 2:01:46 AM UTC-4,
wrote:

Since he lives in a tornado area and is building a whole new house,
wouldn't it be a better and probably simpler idea to build a small
tornado shelter room that will be underground, off the basement,
that's independent of the house above it?

We're not so much a tornado area , but we do get some from time to
time . A bigger concern is the ice storms in winter .
As far as a separate room , the cost makes that a non-solution .
We're building on a budget ... This cellar will be about halfway in
the ground , and the plan is to push the soil removed kind of up the
sides of the cellar - ground will slope away on 3 sides and the 4th
is to be decided . Entry door details are still tbd , but I'm
hesitant to just hang a regular vertical door . IMO best option will
be stairs with sloped doors , one door set up to it can be opened
from inside if necessary - probably a removable panel or something .


If you're going to use it as a shelter, I'd suggest building in more
than one escape route.

Of course ! Not certain of the exact location yet , but there is a hatch
and ladder planned for access from the kitchen pantry above . As soon as the
wife makes her decision on cabinet/island/ etc layout that will be firmed up
. She can't envision from a drawing , I'll have to lay it out on the floor
for her ... some people just don't have that ability .


She's a lucky woman that you're planning for such a safety issue.

--
Maggie

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:28:48 -0500, Muggles wrote:

There's no really perfect place to build a tornado shelter. A house or
debris could fall on the entrance and people would be trapped. I think
a good idea would be to build a couple of access entrances to an under
ground shelter. Store food, lights, batteries, a working cell phone, and
other essentials in the shelter. I'd love to have a tornado shelter,
but they're so darn expensive.

At the early construction phase, adding a hardened safe room does not
add that much incremental cost.


That's a good thing. If it can be done at that stage I think it's a
good idea. Better to have a safe room like that and never need it.

I'd guess an ocean shipping container would be easy. Dig the hole,
make the entry and bury it. Containers can be had on Craigslist for
as little $2500.

On 10/9/2015 11:49 AM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:28:48 -0500, Muggles wrote:

There's no really perfect place to build a tornado shelter. A house or
debris could fall on the entrance and people would be trapped. I think
a good idea would be to build a couple of access entrances to an under
ground shelter. Store food, lights, batteries, a working cell phone, and
other essentials in the shelter. I'd love to have a tornado shelter,
but they're so darn expensive.

At the early construction phase, adding a hardened safe room does not
add that much incremental cost.


That's a good thing. If it can be done at that stage I think it's a
good idea. Better to have a safe room like that and never need it.

I'd guess an ocean shipping container would be easy. Dig the hole,
make the entry and bury it. Containers can be had on Craigslist for
as little $2500.


I'd need a little more land for one of those! They are huge, but it's a
good idea.

--
Maggie

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:23:16 -0500, Muggles wrote:

On 10/9/2015 11:49 AM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:28:48 -0500, Muggles wrote:

There's no really perfect place to build a tornado shelter. A house or
debris could fall on the entrance and people would be trapped. I think
a good idea would be to build a couple of access entrances to an under
ground shelter. Store food, lights, batteries, a working cell phone, and
other essentials in the shelter. I'd love to have a tornado shelter,
but they're so darn expensive.

At the early construction phase, adding a hardened safe room does not
add that much incremental cost.


That's a good thing. If it can be done at that stage I think it's a
good idea. Better to have a safe room like that and never need it.

I'd guess an ocean shipping container would be easy. Dig the hole,
make the entry and bury it. Containers can be had on Craigslist for
as little $2500.


I'd need a little more land for one of those! They are huge, but it's a
good idea.

I think the smallest container is ~ 20'.

Las Vegas has used them to build stores and shops. Other states use
them to build housing for poor folks and the needy.

http://downtowncontainerpark.com/

On 10/9/2015 4:16 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:23:16 -0500, Muggles wrote:

On 10/9/2015 11:49 AM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:28:48 -0500, Muggles wrote:

There's no really perfect place to build a tornado shelter. A house or
debris could fall on the entrance and people would be trapped. I think
a good idea would be to build a couple of access entrances to an under
ground shelter. Store food, lights, batteries, a working cell phone, and
other essentials in the shelter. I'd love to have a tornado shelter,
but they're so darn expensive.

At the early construction phase, adding a hardened safe room does not
add that much incremental cost.


That's a good thing. If it can be done at that stage I think it's a
good idea. Better to have a safe room like that and never need it.

I'd guess an ocean shipping container would be easy. Dig the hole,
make the entry and bury it. Containers can be had on Craigslist for
as little $2500.


I'd need a little more land for one of those! They are huge, but it's a
good idea.

I think the smallest container is ~ 20'.

Las Vegas has used them to build stores and shops. Other states use
them to build housing for poor folks and the needy.

http://downtowncontainerpark.com/


I've heard about them being used for things like that. Even under ground
bug out hide-a-ways for end of times preppers.

--
Maggie

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:16:18 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:23:16 -0500, Muggles wrote:

On 10/9/2015 11:49 AM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:28:48 -0500, Muggles wrote:

There's no really perfect place to build a tornado shelter. A house or
debris could fall on the entrance and people would be trapped. I think
a good idea would be to build a couple of access entrances to an under
ground shelter. Store food, lights, batteries, a working cell phone, and
other essentials in the shelter. I'd love to have a tornado shelter,
but they're so darn expensive.

At the early construction phase, adding a hardened safe room does not
add that much incremental cost.


That's a good thing. If it can be done at that stage I think it's a
good idea. Better to have a safe room like that and never need it.

I'd guess an ocean shipping container would be easy. Dig the hole,
make the entry and bury it. Containers can be had on Craigslist for
as little $2500.


I'd need a little more land for one of those! They are huge, but it's a
good idea.

I think the smallest container is ~ 20'.

Las Vegas has used them to build stores and shops. Other states use
them to build housing for poor folks and the needy.

http://downtowncontainerpark.com/

They have a whole mall built from containers in Christchurch NZ,
slapped together after the earthquake.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zeala...ner%20mall.jpg

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:23:16 -0500, Muggles wrote:

On 10/9/2015 11:49 AM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:28:48 -0500, Muggles wrote:

There's no really perfect place to build a tornado shelter. A house or
debris could fall on the entrance and people would be trapped. I think
a good idea would be to build a couple of access entrances to an under
ground shelter. Store food, lights, batteries, a working cell phone, and
other essentials in the shelter. I'd love to have a tornado shelter,
but they're so darn expensive.

At the early construction phase, adding a hardened safe room does not
add that much incremental cost.


That's a good thing. If it can be done at that stage I think it's a
good idea. Better to have a safe room like that and never need it.

I'd guess an ocean shipping container would be easy. Dig the hole,
make the entry and bury it. Containers can be had on Craigslist for
as little $2500.


I'd need a little more land for one of those! They are huge, but it's a
good idea.

You can get smaller container like buildings that they use for
construction "trailers" in places where security is an issue.
They are as small as 8x12. They get dropped from a dumpster truck.
If you anchored that down well I think it would survive a tornado but
buried they would certainly work. That has to be something you would
do in a place with a very deep water table tho or it would just be an
inground pool.

The most wind resistant structures above ground are concrete dome
homes. We knew a guy north of Tampa who had several dome structures on
his property.

On 10/10/2015 8:55 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:23:16 -0500, Muggles wrote:

On 10/9/2015 11:49 AM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:28:48 -0500, Muggles wrote:

There's no really perfect place to build a tornado shelter. A house or
debris could fall on the entrance and people would be trapped. I think
a good idea would be to build a couple of access entrances to an under
ground shelter. Store food, lights, batteries, a working cell phone, and
other essentials in the shelter. I'd love to have a tornado shelter,
but they're so darn expensive.

At the early construction phase, adding a hardened safe room does not
add that much incremental cost.


That's a good thing. If it can be done at that stage I think it's a
good idea. Better to have a safe room like that and never need it.

I'd guess an ocean shipping container would be easy. Dig the hole,
make the entry and bury it. Containers can be had on Craigslist for
as little $2500.


I'd need a little more land for one of those! They are huge, but it's a
good idea.

You can get smaller container like buildings that they use for
construction "trailers" in places where security is an issue.
They are as small as 8x12. They get dropped from a dumpster truck.
If you anchored that down well I think it would survive a tornado but
buried they would certainly work. That has to be something you would
do in a place with a very deep water table tho or it would just be an
inground pool.

The most wind resistant structures above ground are concrete dome
homes. We knew a guy north of Tampa who had several dome structures on
his property.


We've talked about having a dome home some time in the future, but not
any time soon.

--
Maggie

Terry Coombs posted for all of us...



bob haller wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 12:21:22 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
The cellar floor slab is formed and ready to pour ... coming next
will be the (heavy) block walls . Got the rebar and filled columns
figured out , next up is the attachment of the floor joists to the
top of said wall . The plan is to set some carriage bolts into the
top run of block at suitable intervals and use those to secure a 2X
plate - width TBD . I'll want to be able to secure a ceiling of some
type to an overhanging top plate , independent of the structure
above - this will also serve as a storm shelter .
The question is , how best to secure the floor joists to that same
top plate , so that they are both stable and secure and yet if a
storm strong enough comes thru to part without taking my ceiling
with it . Or , should I use the floor structure as the top/ceiling ,
and let the wall/floor interface part if it comes to a tornado etc ?
We're actually pretty sheltered , down in a pretty deep bowl - when
the tornado took out half of the nearest town (and many others on
it's way to here) it skipped over The Holler , all we got was some
torn up trees . Possibly pertinent detail - the bottom part of the
structure - probably up to window sill height- will be clad with
native stone . Probably 5-6" thick , depending on what I collect and
bedded on a footing 16" below grade - frost line is at around 12" .
--
Snag

you need to hire a structural engineer forthe best alternatives and
specifications

Thanks for your opinion bob . I've been in building trades for forty years
, and some of the most ****ed up messes I've ever seen were designed by
"structural engineers" and "architects" . I trust my own design capabilities
, just trying to decide where to put the "weak link" in this assembly . As
far as load calculations and truss design type stuff -, there are great
calculators available on line ...

If you know so f*n much why do you ask?

--
Tekkie

Muggles posted for all of us...



The most wind resistant structures above ground are concrete dome
homes. We knew a guy north of Tampa who had several dome structures on
his property.


We've talked about having a dome home some time in the future, but not
any time soon.

I have a chrome dome, does that count?

--
Tekkie

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 16:06:22 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

If you know so f*n much why do you ask?

So he can figure out and separate the dumb ****s from Philly.

Tekkie® wrote:
Terry Coombs posted for all of us...



bob haller wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 12:21:22 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
The cellar floor slab is formed and ready to pour ... coming next
will be the (heavy) block walls . Got the rebar and filled columns
figured out , next up is the attachment of the floor joists to the
top of said wall . The plan is to set some carriage bolts into the
top run of block at suitable intervals and use those to secure a 2X
plate - width TBD . I'll want to be able to secure a ceiling of
some type to an overhanging top plate , independent of the
structure above - this will also serve as a storm shelter .
The question is , how best to secure the floor joists to that
same top plate , so that they are both stable and secure and yet
if a storm strong enough comes thru to part without taking my
ceiling with it . Or , should I use the floor structure as the
top/ceiling , and let the wall/floor interface part if it comes to
a tornado etc ? We're actually pretty sheltered , down in a pretty
deep bowl - when the tornado took out half of the nearest town
(and many others on it's way to here) it skipped over The Holler ,
all we got was some torn up trees . Possibly pertinent detail -
the bottom part of the structure - probably up to window sill
height- will be clad with native stone . Probably 5-6" thick ,
depending on what I collect and bedded on a footing 16" below
grade - frost line is at around 12" . --
Snag

you need to hire a structural engineer forthe best alternatives and
specifications

Thanks for your opinion bob . I've been in building trades for
forty years , and some of the most ****ed up messes I've ever seen
were designed by "structural engineers" and "architects" . I trust
my own design capabilities , just trying to decide where to put the
"weak link" in this assembly . As far as load calculations and truss
design type stuff -, there are great calculators available on line
...

If you know so f*n much why do you ask?

Because different people have different perspectives ... and another
perspective may show me something that otherwise i might have missed .
Now how about you **** off and die ?
--
Snag

On 10/10/2015 3:15 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
Muggles posted for all of us...



The most wind resistant structures above ground are concrete dome
homes. We knew a guy north of Tampa who had several dome structures on
his property.


We've talked about having a dome home some time in the future, but not
any time soon.

I have a chrome dome, does that count?


I dunno what a chrome dome is exactly?

--
Maggie

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 16:15:32 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

Muggles posted for all of us...



The most wind resistant structures above ground are concrete dome
homes. We knew a guy north of Tampa who had several dome structures on
his property.


We've talked about having a dome home some time in the future, but not
any time soon.

I have a chrome dome, does that count?

Depends on how much concrete is in there.

Tekkie® wrote:
Terry Coombs posted for all of us...



bob haller wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 12:21:22 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
The cellar floor slab is formed and ready to pour ... coming next
will be the (heavy) block walls . Got the rebar and filled columns
figured out , next up is the attachment of the floor joists to the
top of said wall . The plan is to set some carriage bolts into the
top run of block at suitable intervals and use those to secure a 2X
plate - width TBD . I'll want to be able to secure a ceiling of some
type to an overhanging top plate , independent of the structure
above - this will also serve as a storm shelter .
The question is , how best to secure the floor joists to that same
top plate , so that they are both stable and secure and yet if a
storm strong enough comes thru to part without taking my ceiling
with it . Or , should I use the floor structure as the top/ceiling ,
and let the wall/floor interface part if it comes to a tornado etc ?
We're actually pretty sheltered , down in a pretty deep bowl - when
the tornado took out half of the nearest town (and many others on
it's way to here) it skipped over The Holler , all we got was some
torn up trees . Possibly pertinent detail - the bottom part of the
structure - probably up to window sill height- will be clad with
native stone . Probably 5-6" thick , depending on what I collect and
bedded on a footing 16" below grade - frost line is at around 12" .
--
Snag

you need to hire a structural engineer forthe best alternatives and
specifications

Thanks for your opinion bob . I've been in building trades for forty years
, and some of the most ****ed up messes I've ever seen were designed by
"structural engineers" and "architects" . I trust my own design capabilities
, just trying to decide where to put the "weak link" in this assembly . As
far as load calculations and truss design type stuff -, there are great
calculators available on line ...

If you know so f*n much why do you ask?

I'd say same. How come did he have to ask?
Does not make sense. Maybe he spent in the trade
just digging dirt around with shovel.

Tony Hwang wrote:
Tekkie® wrote:
Terry Coombs posted for all of us...



bob haller wrote:
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 12:21:22 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs
wrote:
The cellar floor slab is formed and ready to pour ... coming next
will be the (heavy) block walls . Got the rebar and filled columns
figured out , next up is the attachment of the floor joists to the
top of said wall . The plan is to set some carriage bolts into the
top run of block at suitable intervals and use those to secure a
2X plate - width TBD . I'll want to be able to secure a ceiling
of some type to an overhanging top plate , independent of the
structure above - this will also serve as a storm shelter .
The question is , how best to secure the floor joists to that
same top plate , so that they are both stable and secure and yet
if a storm strong enough comes thru to part without taking my
ceiling with it . Or , should I use the floor structure as the
top/ceiling , and let the wall/floor interface part if it comes
to a tornado etc ? We're actually pretty sheltered , down in a
pretty deep bowl - when the tornado took out half of the nearest
town (and many others on it's way to here) it skipped over The
Holler , all we got was some torn up trees . Possibly
pertinent detail - the bottom part of the structure - probably up
to window sill height- will be clad with native stone . Probably
5-6" thick , depending on what I collect and bedded on a footing
16" below grade - frost line is at around 12" . --
Snag

you need to hire a structural engineer forthe best alternatives and
specifications

Thanks for your opinion bob . I've been in building trades for
forty years , and some of the most ****ed up messes I've ever seen
were designed by "structural engineers" and "architects" . I trust
my own design capabilities , just trying to decide where to put the
"weak link" in this assembly . As far as load calculations and
truss design type stuff -, there are great calculators available on
line ...

If you know so f*n much why do you ask?

I'd say same. How come did he have to ask?
Does not make sense. Maybe he spent in the trade
just digging dirt around with shovel.

Ya know , I was going to write a blistering diatribe . But you aren't worth
the effort .
--
Snag

Muggles posted for all of us...



On 10/10/2015 3:15 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
Muggles posted for all of us...



The most wind resistant structures above ground are concrete dome
homes. We knew a guy north of Tampa who had several dome structures on
his property.


We've talked about having a dome home some time in the future, but not
any time soon.

I have a chrome dome, does that count?


I dunno what a chrome dome is exactly?

Bald head

--
Tekkie