I have just discovered that our 120v microwave oven is tapped into the
240v stove circuit. The stove circuit is a two wire cable with ground, and
the microwave is connected to one hot wire and the neutral is connected to
the grounding wire of the stove circuit. I'm not an electrician, but I
know intuitively this is not right. What is the major danger? Any ideas
for a remedy?

--

On 03/11/2015 02:44 AM, ShirtFree wrote:
I have just discovered that our 120v microwave oven is tapped into the
240v stove circuit. The stove circuit is a two wire cable with ground, and
the microwave is connected to one hot wire and the neutral is connected to
the grounding wire of the stove circuit. I'm not an electrician, but I
know intuitively this is not right. What is the major danger?

Fire and/or electrocution!

Any ideas for a remedy?


Apparently your house was wired by the village idiot. Get it repaired by a competent electrician.

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 02:44:01 +0000, ShirtFree
wrote:

I have just discovered that our 120v microwave oven is tapped into the
240v stove circuit. The stove circuit is a two wire cable with ground, and
the microwave is connected to one hot wire and the neutral is connected to
the grounding wire of the stove circuit. I'm not an electrician, but I
know intuitively this is not right. What is the major danger? Any ideas
for a remedy?


Sounds like an Edison circuit. Two circuits on three wires. It is
possible to split a 240 into two 120's using the common neutral, but I
don't know if it is legal to have both voltages. I don't know enough
about the code to say if it is compliant or not.

The only way to eliminate it is to run a new wire either from the
breaker box or from a junction box that can support the additional
load.

The Edison circuit was originally designed by Edison using his DC
system, but he lost out to Westinghouse and AC.

I have just discovered that our 120v microwave oven is tapped into the
240v stove circuit. The stove circuit is a two wire cable with ground, and
the microwave is connected to one hot wire and the neutral is connected to
the grounding wire of the stove circuit. I'm not an electrician, but I
know intuitively this is not right. What is the major danger? Any ideas
for a remedy?


*Your best remedy is to install a new 20 amp 120 volt circuit to power the microwave oven.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 02:44:01 +0000, ShirtFree
wrote:

I have just discovered that our 120v microwave oven is tapped into the
240v stove circuit. The stove circuit is a two wire cable with ground, and
the microwave is connected to one hot wire and the neutral is connected to
the grounding wire of the stove circuit. I'm not an electrician, but I
know intuitively this is not right. What is the major danger? Any ideas
for a remedy?

There should not be too much danger as long as you pay the Fire
Department to park and staff a fire truck in your driveway 24/7.
They will likely be able to limit the fire, so it only destroys your
kitchen.

For a remedy, call an electrician, to wire it properly!!!

That outlet is probably not even on a correct size breaker or fuse.

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 2:09:01 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 02:44:01 +0000, ShirtFree
wrote:

I have just discovered that our 120v microwave oven is tapped into the
240v stove circuit. The stove circuit is a two wire cable with ground, and
the microwave is connected to one hot wire and the neutral is connected to
the grounding wire of the stove circuit. I'm not an electrician, but I
know intuitively this is not right. What is the major danger? Any ideas
for a remedy?

The major danger is the neutral current can show up on the frame of
the stove if you have a fault in the grounded conductor.


Agree with the above. The stove circuit is of the older variety,
with one wire sharing the function of neutral and ground. That is
assuming that the stove has 120V loads as well as 240V loads,
which they typically do. If the stove was just 240V, then the one
wire would be just the ground. Assuming it was wired up years ago
when it was code compliant, there is no issue there with the stove.

What some yahoo did was tap into it for the microwave and that is
not code compliant. The best solution would be to do a new run back
to the panel for the microwave outlet. It would also be an opportunity
to add other receptacles if you need them.

Contrary to what some are saying, assuming all else was done correctly,
there is no fire danger, immediate safety hazard, etc. Like Gfre says,
the danger would be if the ground/neutral were to be cut, disconnected
at the panel, etc. In that case, the metal case of the microwave
would become energized. But even with only the stove, installed to
previous code, the same thing would happen with the stove metal itself and
that was allowed for 50 years without disasters everywhere. The chance
of the one wire being interrupted somehow is very low.

So, it should be corrected, but no need to panic.

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 9:30:28 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 2:09:01 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 02:44:01 +0000, ShirtFree
wrote:

I have just discovered that our 120v microwave oven is tapped into the
240v stove circuit. The stove circuit is a two wire cable with ground, and
the microwave is connected to one hot wire and the neutral is connected to
the grounding wire of the stove circuit. I'm not an electrician, but I
know intuitively this is not right. What is the major danger? Any ideas
for a remedy?

The major danger is the neutral current can show up on the frame of
the stove if you have a fault in the grounded conductor.


Agree with the above. The stove circuit is of the older variety,
with one wire sharing the function of neutral and ground. That is
assuming that the stove has 120V loads as well as 240V loads,
which they typically do. If the stove was just 240V, then the one
wire would be just the ground. Assuming it was wired up years ago
when it was code compliant, there is no issue there with the stove.



My stove is old enough to be 3 wire, and it has an outlet for plugging in a coffee pot, microwave, etc.

Does the OP have a separate 120 outlet daisy chained to the stove outlet? That sounds out of code to me.

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 9:41:02 AM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 9:30:28 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 2:09:01 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 02:44:01 +0000, ShirtFree
wrote:

I have just discovered that our 120v microwave oven is tapped into the
240v stove circuit. The stove circuit is a two wire cable with ground, and
the microwave is connected to one hot wire and the neutral is connected to
the grounding wire of the stove circuit. I'm not an electrician, but I
know intuitively this is not right. What is the major danger? Any ideas
for a remedy?

The major danger is the neutral current can show up on the frame of
the stove if you have a fault in the grounded conductor.


Agree with the above. The stove circuit is of the older variety,
with one wire sharing the function of neutral and ground. That is
assuming that the stove has 120V loads as well as 240V loads,
which they typically do. If the stove was just 240V, then the one
wire would be just the ground. Assuming it was wired up years ago
when it was code compliant, there is no issue there with the stove.



My stove is old enough to be 3 wire, and it has an outlet for plugging in a coffee pot, microwave, etc.

Does the OP have a separate 120 outlet daisy chained to the stove outlet? That sounds out of code to me.

From what was described, that's indeed what they have and it is a
code violation and should be fixed. The thing I worry about with things
like this is if some yahoo did this,
what else did they do with that circuit and/or the rest of the house
that you don't know about?

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 9:30:28 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 2:09:01 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 02:44:01 +0000, ShirtFree
wrote:

I have just discovered that our 120v microwave oven is tapped into the
240v stove circuit. The stove circuit is a two wire cable with ground, and
the microwave is connected to one hot wire and the neutral is connected to
the grounding wire of the stove circuit. I'm not an electrician, but I
know intuitively this is not right. What is the major danger? Any ideas
for a remedy?

The major danger is the neutral current can show up on the frame of
the stove if you have a fault in the grounded conductor.


Agree with the above. The stove circuit is of the older variety,
with one wire sharing the function of neutral and ground. That is
assuming that the stove has 120V loads as well as 240V loads,
which they typically do. If the stove was just 240V, then the one
wire would be just the ground. Assuming it was wired up years ago
when it was code compliant, there is no issue there with the stove.

What some yahoo did was tap into it for the microwave and that is
not code compliant. The best solution would be to do a new run back
to the panel for the microwave outlet. It would also be an opportunity
to add other receptacles if you need them.

Contrary to what some are saying, assuming all else was done correctly,
there is no fire danger, immediate safety hazard, etc. Like Gfre says,
the danger would be if the ground/neutral were to be cut, disconnected
at the panel, etc. In that case, the metal case of the microwave
would become energized. But even with only the stove, installed to
previous code, the same thing would happen with the stove metal itself and
that was allowed for 50 years without disasters everywhere. The chance
of the one wire being interrupted somehow is very low.


Must be running a bit slow today. I take back part of what I said
above about the possible disconnection of the neutral/ground being
the only safety issue. That is one angle, but there is a big safety issue
here, and that is that the microwave outlet is being protected by the breaker
for the stove. That's going to typically be a 40A or larger breaker.
So, you have a 15 or 20 amp outlet plus the wiring between the outlet
and stove, on a 40A or bigger breaker. That is a potential fire hazard.

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 9:55:03 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
Contrary to what some are saying, assuming all else was done correctly,
there is no fire danger, immediate safety hazard, etc. Like Gfre says,
the danger would be if the ground/neutral were to be cut, disconnected
at the panel, etc. In that case, the metal case of the microwave
would become energized. But even with only the stove, installed to
previous code, the same thing would happen with the stove metal itself and
that was allowed for 50 years without disasters everywhere. The chance
of the one wire being interrupted somehow is very low.


Must be running a bit slow today. I take back part of what I said
above about the possible disconnection of the neutral/ground being
the only safety issue. That is one angle, but there is a big safety issue
here, and that is that the microwave outlet is being protected by the breaker
for the stove. That's going to typically be a 40A or larger breaker.
So, you have a 15 or 20 amp outlet plus the wiring between the outlet
and stove, on a 40A or bigger breaker. That is a potential fire hazard.

So you could potentially plug way too many devices into that outlet and never trip anything, that makes sense as the main safety issue.

That 40 A breaker is a double. I'm not sure how they work. Does it take 40 A to trip either side?

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 10:38:15 AM UTC-4, TimR wrote:


So you could potentially plug way too many devices into that outlet and never trip anything, that makes sense as the main safety issue.

That 40 A breaker is a double. I'm not sure how they work. Does it take 40 A to trip either side?

Yes.

replying to ShirtFree, Chuck wrote:
ShirtFree wrote:

I have just discovered that our 120v microwave oven is tapped into the 240v
stove circuit. The stove circuit is a two wire cable with ground, and the
microwave is connected to one hot wire and the neutral is connected to the
grounding wire of the stove circuit. I'm not an electrician, but I know
intuitively this is not right. What is the major danger? Any ideas for a
remedy?



Thanks, guys, for all the input. There are no 120v devices on the stove
(very cheap model). No clocks, outlets or the like. Strictly 240v heating
elements. The house was constructed in the late 60's, early 70's (with
aluminum wiring) and the kitchen "remodeling" was done in 2010, at which
time the jerry rigged wiring was installed. I'm sure no permitting took
place.

Glad to learn about the extent and nature of the dangers, though. I will
make sure that there is continuity in the ground between the stove and the
distribution panel. I'm going to go with having a separate circuit
installed as time and circumstances allow.

PS The Anne Arundel County Fire Service was not interested in stationing
fire fighters and equipment in the vicinity. The entire community has
aluminum wiring and yet there have been no house fires that I am aware of.

Thanks again to all of you for your help.

--

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:34:35 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:44:01 +0000, Chuck
m wrote:

replying to ShirtFree, Chuck wrote:
ShirtFree wrote:

I have just discovered that our 120v microwave oven is tapped into the 240v
stove circuit. The stove circuit is a two wire cable with ground, and the
microwave is connected to one hot wire and the neutral is connected to the
grounding wire of the stove circuit. I'm not an electrician, but I know
intuitively this is not right. What is the major danger? Any ideas for a
remedy?



Thanks, guys, for all the input. There are no 120v devices on the stove
(very cheap model). No clocks, outlets or the like. Strictly 240v heating
elements. The house was constructed in the late 60's, early 70's (with
aluminum wiring) and the kitchen "remodeling" was done in 2010, at which
time the jerry rigged wiring was installed. I'm sure no permitting took
place.

Glad to learn about the extent and nature of the dangers, though. I will
make sure that there is continuity in the ground between the stove and the
distribution panel. I'm going to go with having a separate circuit
installed as time and circumstances allow.

PS The Anne Arundel County Fire Service was not interested in stationing
fire fighters and equipment in the vicinity. The entire community has
aluminum wiring and yet there have been no house fires that I am aware of.

Thanks again to all of you for your help.

If, in fact, there are no 120v loads, it is legal today.

The microwave is the thing that pushes it over to the illegal side.
If you can drop in a 20a 120v circuit, that is the way to go.


An electrician that wires a 20A circuit to a 40A breaker should go to
jail.

replying to trader_4 , Chuck wrote:
trader4 wrote:

From what was described, that's indeed what they have and it is a
code violation and should be fixed. The thing I worry about with things
like this is if some yahoo did this,
what else did they do with that circuit and/or the rest of the house
that you don't know about?



Your point is well taken. You wouldn't believe what we have come across.
For instance, the front porch light switch was wired to ground. Turn it
on, and the breaker tripped. It has been an expensive nightmare, and it
just keeps on.


--

On 03/11/2015 2:43 PM, wrote:
....

Consider this. The Microwave (MW) develops a problem, causing a dead
short. There is no properly sized breaker to trip. ...

A "dead short" will certainly trip even the 40A breaker instantly.

The actual fire danger is, imo, quite low w/ the single device; where it
would be a serious hazard from that standpoint would be multiple outlets
where one could easily put a normal load that greatly exceeds the
outlet/local wiring heating limits, but that isn't the case here of the
single device.

Is it right? No.
Should it be corrected? Yes.
But is it an _imminent,standing_ fire or safety hazard? No.

--

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 2:43:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:


Consider this. The Microwave (MW) develops a problem, causing a dead
short. There is no properly sized breaker to trip. Several things can
happen.

A dead short will trip the existing 40A or whatever breaker for
the stove instantly. It's an overload that exceeds the wiring to the
outlet, but not the breaker, ie the range of 15A or 20A to 40A, that would
be the fire hazard from the wiring overheating.




If you're lucky. only the MW will be destroyed as smoke pours
out of it, making it hard to breathe and sooting up the house, until it
finally burns the internal wires and components enough to be
disconnected from the power. -OR- If you're not so lucky, the
unprotected #12 or #14 wires to that outlet ignite, setting the house on
fire, destroying your home. It's a gamble, and with Alum wire, the odds
are NOT in your favor. So, you might want to have some marshmallows
handy to roast as your home burns to the ground.

I have not addressed any possible electrocution issues in this reply.

There really aren't any electrocution issues. No more so than with
the stove that also uses a shared ground and neutral that is connected
to it's metal case. And that is still code compliant as long as it
was wired before the code changed.

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:51:31 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 03/11/2015 2:43 PM, wrote:
...

Consider this. The Microwave (MW) develops a problem, causing a dead
short. There is no properly sized breaker to trip. ...

A "dead short" will certainly trip even the 40A breaker instantly.

The actual fire danger is, imo, quite low w/ the single device; where it
would be a serious hazard from that standpoint would be multiple outlets
where one could easily put a normal load that greatly exceeds the
outlet/local wiring heating limits, but that isn't the case here of the
single device.

Is it right? No.
Should it be corrected? Yes.
But is it an _imminent,standing_ fire or safety hazard? No.

Take a 20 A circuit in the kitchen. Each appliance used in the
kitchen will normally max out the circuit. Is there a danger with
only the microwave plugged in? Not normally.

Plug a microwave and a deep fryer into the same outlet (on a 40A
breaker). Fire hazard easily.

On 03/11/2015 1:53 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 2:43:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:


Consider this. The Microwave (MW) develops a problem, causing a dead
short. There is no properly sized breaker to trip. Several things can
happen.

A dead short will trip the existing 40A or whatever breaker for
the stove instantly. It's an overload that exceeds the wiring to the
outlet, but not the breaker, ie the range of 15A or 20A to 40A, that would
be the fire hazard from the wiring overheating.
....

And, of course, while presuming 14ga/15A outlet, any load above that is
in violation of Code, the actual breaker thermal trip level is generally
about 5-7.5% _above_ the nominal breaker rating at which point the
bimetallic strip opens so the actual load might be as much as 43A or so
before the breaker itself saw the overload.

But, mitigating that is that the actual current-carrying capacity of
wiring or the outlet is quite a lot greater than that for which it is
rated for Code application so there's quite a margin of safety before a
real fire danger is present.

I don't have the data at hand on what the temperature rise in a 14ga Cu
would be in open air at 43A but it'll be warm...will it be fire-setting
hot I don't know for certain.

See the previous comment above as well...it certainly should be fixed
but I don't believe it's an imminent hazard in the next 10 minutes.

--

On 03/11/2015 2:08 PM, Seymore4Head wrote:
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:51:31 -0500, wrote:

On 03/11/2015 2:43 PM, wrote:
...

Consider this. The Microwave (MW) develops a problem, causing a dead
short. There is no properly sized breaker to trip. ...

A "dead short" will certainly trip even the 40A breaker instantly.

The actual fire danger is, imo, quite low w/ the single device; where it
would be a serious hazard from that standpoint would be multiple outlets
where one could easily put a normal load that greatly exceeds the
outlet/local wiring heating limits, but that isn't the case here of the
single device.

Is it right? No.
Should it be corrected? Yes.
But is it an _imminent,standing_ fire or safety hazard? No.

Take a 20 A circuit in the kitchen. Each appliance used in the
kitchen will normally max out the circuit. Is there a danger with
only the microwave plugged in? Not normally.

Plug a microwave and a deep fryer into the same outlet (on a 40A
breaker). Fire hazard easily.

That's the point though, there's only the one device here.

--

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:44:01 +0000, Chuck
wrote:

replying to ShirtFree, Chuck wrote:
ShirtFree wrote:

I have just discovered that our 120v microwave oven is tapped into the 240v
stove circuit. The stove circuit is a two wire cable with ground, and the
microwave is connected to one hot wire and the neutral is connected to the
grounding wire of the stove circuit. I'm not an electrician, but I know
intuitively this is not right. What is the major danger? Any ideas for a
remedy?



Thanks, guys, for all the input. There are no 120v devices on the stove
(very cheap model). No clocks, outlets or the like. Strictly 240v heating
elements. The house was constructed in the late 60's, early 70's (with
aluminum wiring) and the kitchen "remodeling" was done in 2010, at which
time the jerry rigged wiring was installed. I'm sure no permitting took
place.


And that outlet is probably wired with #12 or #14 wire, which is
connected to a 40A or 50A breaker. And likely they have copper wire to
the outlet connected to Alum wire, which is likely to corrode due to the
dialectric action of different metals.

Glad to learn about the extent and nature of the dangers, though. I will
make sure that there is continuity in the ground between the stove and the
distribution panel. I'm going to go with having a separate circuit
installed as time and circumstances allow.

What are you going to do, check the connections every day? I'd get that
separate circuit installed THIS WEEK or sooner.

PS The Anne Arundel County Fire Service was not interested in stationing
fire fighters and equipment in the vicinity. The entire community has
aluminum wiring and yet there have been no house fires that I am aware of.

In that case, the whole house might burn to the ground.

Your house could be the FIRST one to burn.

Consider this. The Microwave (MW) develops a problem, causing a dead
short. There is no properly sized breaker to trip. Several things can
happen. If you're lucky. only the MW will be destroyed as smoke pours
out of it, making it hard to breathe and sooting up the house, until it
finally burns the internal wires and components enough to be
disconnected from the power. -OR- If you're not so lucky, the
unprotected #12 or #14 wires to that outlet ignite, setting the house on
fire, destroying your home. It's a gamble, and with Alum wire, the odds
are NOT in your favor. So, you might want to have some marshmallows
handy to roast as your home burns to the ground.

I have not addressed any possible electrocution issues in this reply.

As another poster said "the person who wired that should be in jail".

Thanks again to all of you for your help.

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 06:40:54 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

My stove is old enough to be 3 wire, and it has an outlet for plugging
in a coffee pot, microwave, etc.

Stoves like that have an internal 15A or 20A fuse or breaker for those
built in 120V devices. What the OP said, the outlet is wired directly
to the RANGE outlet. THere is no smaller fuse or breaker. BIG
DIFFERENCE!

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:44:01 +0000, Chuck
wrote:

replying to ShirtFree, Chuck wrote:
ShirtFree wrote:

I have just discovered that our 120v microwave oven is tapped into the 240v
stove circuit. The stove circuit is a two wire cable with ground, and the
microwave is connected to one hot wire and the neutral is connected to the
grounding wire of the stove circuit. I'm not an electrician, but I know
intuitively this is not right. What is the major danger? Any ideas for a
remedy?



Thanks, guys, for all the input. There are no 120v devices on the stove
(very cheap model). No clocks, outlets or the like.

I never thought an outlet on the stove was a great idea. Eventually
someone will turn the burner on when an electric cord is going over the
burner.

Strictly 240v heating
elements. The house was constructed in the late 60's, early 70's (with
aluminum wiring) and the kitchen "remodeling" was done in 2010, at which
time the jerry rigged wiring was installed. I'm sure no permitting took
place.

Glad to learn about the extent and nature of the dangers, though. I will
make sure that there is continuity in the ground between the stove and the
distribution panel. I'm going to go with having a separate circuit
installed as time and circumstances allow.

PS The Anne Arundel County Fire Service was not interested in stationing

I actually live in the next county (I think).

fire fighters and equipment in the vicinity. The entire community has
aluminum wiring and yet there have been no house fires that I am aware of.

Thanks again to all of you for your help.

On 3/11/2015 4:34 PM, micky wrote:
I never thought an outlet on the stove was a great idea. Eventually
someone will turn the burner on when an electric cord is going over the
burner.

Maybe we shouldn't put burners on the stove top because some dumbass democrat will burn themselves?
And maybe limit the oven temp to 120F?

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 3:14:01 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 03/11/2015 1:53 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 2:43:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:


Consider this. The Microwave (MW) develops a problem, causing a dead
short. There is no properly sized breaker to trip. Several things can
happen.

A dead short will trip the existing 40A or whatever breaker for
the stove instantly. It's an overload that exceeds the wiring to the
outlet, but not the breaker, ie the range of 15A or 20A to 40A, that would
be the fire hazard from the wiring overheating.
...

And, of course, while presuming 14ga/15A outlet, any load above that is
in violation of Code, the actual breaker thermal trip level is generally
about 5-7.5% _above_ the nominal breaker rating at which point the
bimetallic strip opens so the actual load might be as much as 43A or so
before the breaker itself saw the overload.

But, mitigating that is that the actual current-carrying capacity of
wiring or the outlet is quite a lot greater than that for which it is
rated for Code application so there's quite a margin of safety before a
real fire danger is present.

I don't have the data at hand on what the temperature rise in a 14ga Cu
would be in open air at 43A but it'll be warm...will it be fire-setting
hot I don't know for certain.


Copper 14g is 2.5 ohms per 1000 ft, or .0025 per ft. At 40 amps,
I2R is 1600 x .0025, or 4 watts per foot. You have two conductors,
so double that, 8W. 8W spread out over a foot of wire doesn't sound
like a lot of heat to me either. Like you say, warm, but I doubt
it would melt romex insulation. There is a lot of margin in the code.


See the previous comment above as well...it certainly should be fixed
but I don't believe it's an imminent hazard in the next 10 minutes.

--

I agree, especially now that he knows not to plug another big load
into that same receptacle with the microwave.

On 03/11/2015 4:34 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 3:14:01 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
....

I don't have the data at hand on what the temperature rise in a 14ga Cu
would be in open air at 43A but it'll be warm...will it be fire-setting
hot I don't know for certain.


Copper 14g is 2.5 ohms per 1000 ft, or .0025 per ft. At 40 amps,
I2R is 1600 x .0025, or 4 watts per foot. You have two conductors,
so double that, 8W. 8W spread out over a foot of wire doesn't sound
like a lot of heat to me either. Like you say, warm, but I doubt
it would melt romex insulation. There is a lot of margin in the code.
....

Thanks for the update--I couldn't recall well enough to venture w/o
looking it up and didn't want to take the time/effort at the time.

Well, let's see if can do a little more on the temperature rise given
the heat load...

Well, shoot! Can't find in a quick search any specifically applicable
heat transfer coefficients for romex so it'll have to wait until can
find more time...by which time I'll likely have lost interest!

--

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 16:53:30 -0400, Dick
wrote:

On 3/11/2015 4:34 PM, micky wrote:
I never thought an outlet on the stove was a great idea. Eventually
someone will turn the burner on when an electric cord is going over the
burner.

Maybe we shouldn't put burners on the stove top because some dumbass democrat will burn themselves?

What does this have to do with Democrats? You need full-time therapy.

And maybe limit the oven temp to 120F?

On 3/11/2015 3:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:44:01 +0000, Chuck
wrote:

PS The Anne Arundel County Fire Service was not interested in stationing
fire fighters and equipment in the vicinity. The entire community has
aluminum wiring and yet there have been no house fires that I am aware of.

In that case, the whole house might burn to the ground.

Your house could be the FIRST one to burn.


I have not addressed any possible electrocution issues in this reply.

As another poster said "the person who wired that should be in jail".

Another moaners hub poster, displaying intelligence.

Yep, aluminum wiring and no problems. Yet.
-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 03/11/2015 5:13 PM, dpb wrote:
....

Well, let's see if can do a little more on the temperature rise given
the heat load...

Well, shoot! Can't find in a quick search any specifically applicable
heat transfer coefficients for romex so it'll have to wait until can
find more time...by which time I'll likely have lost interest!
....

I've lost interest...but, I did find one study that bundled 12(!!!)
various-sized cables from 14 to 10ga in a single bundle through a top
plate hole as constricted as possible yet get them through it.

They then powered each and every circuit to it's 80% rating by adjusting
a bunch of resistance heat loads and watched. It raised the temperature
to above the 90C (~200F) rating temperature after a period of several
hours from which they concluded this was a bad idea and Code should
prevent it! (DOH!)

OBTW, this was on an experimental structure of a west-facing wall in the
AZ desert at full summer sun...

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On 03/12/2015 1:09 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 12:41:45 -0500, wrote:

On 03/11/2015 5:13 PM, dpb wrote:
...

Well, let's see if can do a little more on the temperature rise given
the heat load...

Well, shoot! Can't find in a quick search any specifically applicable
heat transfer coefficients for romex so it'll have to wait until can
find more time...by which time I'll likely have lost interest!
...

I've lost interest...but, I did find one study that bundled 12(!!!)
various-sized cables from 14 to 10ga in a single bundle through a top
plate hole as constricted as possible yet get them through it.

They then powered each and every circuit to it's 80% rating by adjusting
a bunch of resistance heat loads and watched. It raised the temperature
to above the 90C (~200F) rating temperature after a period of several
hours from which they concluded this was a bad idea and Code should
prevent it! (DOH!)

OBTW, this was on an experimental structure of a west-facing wall in the
AZ desert at full summer sun...

Check out 334.80, It has been in the code for several cycles.

Where more than two NM cables containing two or more current-carrying
conductors are installed, without maintaining spacing between the
cables, through the same opening in wood framing that is to be fire-
or draft-stopped using thermal insulation, caulk, or sealing foam, the
allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be adjusted in accordance
with Table 310.15(B)(2)(a) and the provisions of 310.15(A)(2),
Exception, shall not apply.

I'm aware of it, just reporting the story of an "experiment" as,
basically, "jobsite" humor...but, apparently these nitwits weren't.

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