I see that the latest NEC revisions prescribe that AFCI breakers are to
be used not merely for bedroom circuits but for just about every living
space -- OK, I guess.

But I see that it is now a violation to have a duplex outlet on a
GFCI-protected circuit for a single prescribed appliance, e.g.,
refrigerator, sump pump; why on earth...? (Someone suggested --
humorously, I guess -- that it was to sell more outlets and to make more
[paid] work for electricians, who would then have to install additional
circuits and outlets.)

Perce

On 01/23/2015 09:27 AM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
I see that the latest NEC revisions prescribe that AFCI breakers are to
be used not merely for bedroom circuits but for just about every living
space -- OK, I guess.

But I see that it is now a violation to have a duplex outlet on a
GFCI-protected circuit for a single prescribed appliance, e.g.,
refrigerator, sump pump; why on earth...? (Someone suggested --
humorously, I guess -- that it was to sell more outlets and to make more
[paid] work for electricians, who would then have to install additional
circuits and outlets.)

Perce



My guess is that a "false trip" for a critical item such as a
refrigerator or sump-pump would be deemed to be worse than the very
small risk of shock hazard.


Elsewhere however, not a bad safety precaution.


They should also put a label on them:

Not to be used under water.

On 01/23/2015 10:40 AM, philo wrote:

I see that the latest NEC revisions prescribe that AFCI breakers are to
be used not merely for bedroom circuits but for just about every living
space -- OK, I guess.

But I see that it is now a violation to have a duplex outlet on a
GFCI-protected circuit for a single prescribed appliance, e.g.,
refrigerator, sump pump; why on earth...? (Someone suggested --
humorously, I guess -- that it was to sell more outlets and to make more
[paid] work for electricians, who would then have to install additional
circuits and outlets.)

My guess is that a "false trip" for a critical item such as a
refrigerator or sump-pump would be deemed to be worse than the very
small risk of shock hazard.


Elsewhere however, not a bad safety precaution.


They should also put a label on them:

Not to be used under water.

But it doesn't say (at least not according to the summary I was reading)
that it is a violation to have *additional* outlets on one of those
GFCI-protected circuits.

I know that existing installations do not have to be brought into
compliance with the new NEC at every change, but out of curiosity: both
our sump pump itself *and* the charger for the battery-powered backup
sump pump are plugged into a GFCI-protected duplex outlet; would that be
considered a violation of the new rule?

Perce

I see that the latest NEC revisions prescribe that AFCI breakers are to
be used not merely for bedroom circuits but for just about every living
space -- OK, I guess.

But I see that it is now a violation to have a duplex outlet on a
GFCI-protected circuit for a single prescribed appliance, e.g.,
refrigerator, sump pump; why on earth...? (Someone suggested --
humorously, I guess -- that it was to sell more outlets and to make more
[paid] work for electricians, who would then have to install additional
circuits and outlets.)

Perce

*As far as I know it is not a code violation to have a dedicated GFI circuit for an appliance. Doesn't matter if the outlet is single or duplex. If it is a 20 amp circuit and there will only be one single receptacle, then that single receptacle must be rated for 20 amps. Do you have a code reference article number for what you read?

There are no longer any exceptions for GFI protection. I responded in another newsgroup about the ceiling outlet in a garage that normally powers the garage door opener. That is required to have GFI protection as well as the other outlets in the garage. If the refrigerator is within six feet of the kitchen sink it must have GFI protection. Any outlets in the unfinished part of a basement must have GFI protection.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

On 01/23/2015 9:57 AM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 01/23/2015 10:40 AM, philo wrote:
....

But I see that it is now a violation to have a duplex outlet on a
GFCI-protected circuit for a single prescribed appliance, e.g.,
refrigerator, sump pump; why on earth...? ...
....
But it doesn't say (at least not according to the summary I was reading)
that it is a violation to have *additional* outlets on one of those
GFCI-protected circuits.

I know that existing installations do not have to be brought into
compliance with the new NEC at every change, but out of curiosity: both
our sump pump itself *and* the charger for the battery-powered backup
sump pump are plugged into a GFCI-protected duplex outlet; would that be
considered a violation of the new rule?
....

I haven't actually seen the new wording but if have additional outlets
on the circuit then it wouldn't be a dedicated circuit as prescribed...

That seems excessive and wouldn't say that's it w/o actually seeing the
revised Code...

--

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 11:21:30 AM UTC-5, John G wrote:
I see that the latest NEC revisions prescribe that AFCI breakers are to
be used not merely for bedroom circuits but for just about every living
space -- OK, I guess.

But I see that it is now a violation to have a duplex outlet on a
GFCI-protected circuit for a single prescribed appliance, e.g.,
refrigerator, sump pump; why on earth...? (Someone suggested --
humorously, I guess -- that it was to sell more outlets and to make more
[paid] work for electricians, who would then have to install additional
circuits and outlets.)

Perce

*As far as I know it is not a code violation to have a dedicated GFI circuit for an appliance. Doesn't matter if the outlet is single or duplex. If it is a 20 amp circuit and there will only be one single receptacle, then that single receptacle must be rated for 20 amps. Do you have a code reference article number for what you read?

There are no longer any exceptions for GFI protection. I responded in another newsgroup about the ceiling outlet in a garage that normally powers the garage door opener. That is required to have GFI protection as well as the other outlets in the garage. If the refrigerator is within six feet of the kitchen sink it must have GFI protection. Any outlets in the unfinished part of a basement must have GFI protection.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV


Maybe Perce can provide a link to what he's reading about this new code?

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 10:21:30 AM UTC-6, John G wrote:

If the refrigerator is within six feet of the kitchen sink it must have GFI protection.

....and what if a refrigerator is more than 6 feet but has an icemaker plumbed?

On 01/23/2015 11:41 AM, wrote:

I see that the latest NEC revisions prescribe that AFCI breakers are to
be used not merely for bedroom circuits but for just about every living
space -- OK, I guess.

But I see that it is now a violation to have a duplex outlet on a
GFCI-protected circuit for a single prescribed appliance, e.g.,
refrigerator, sump pump; why on earth...? (Someone suggested --
humorously, I guess -- that it was to sell more outlets and to make more
[paid] work for electricians, who would then have to install additional
circuits and outlets.)

You need to cite that. I am not sure which rule you might be talking
about.

I was not reading the code itself: I was reading a _Codes for
Homeowners_ (or some such title) book that I picked up and skimmed while
I waited for assistance at one of the local Home Improvement stores. No
"chapter and verse" were cited.

The only one of those I have seen as being interpreted that way is the
15a receptacle behind a refrigerator in the kitchen and that is
because it is *not* required to be GFCI and not a 20a like the rest of
the circuits in a kitchen.

Kitchen circuits have to be 20A? And with 20A outlets, or still with
only 15A outlets but with wiring and breakers for 20A?

Some jurisdictions say if it is only for
the fridge, it should be a single receptacle with no other outlets.
The flaw in that logic is you can have more than one piece of
"refrigeration equipment". (maybe a wine cooler next to the fridge or
a fridge and a freezer)
If it is not in the kitchen the fridge can be on any circuit
available. If it is a place requiring GFCI, it needs to be a GFCI.
Back when there were exceptions for things that did not need to be on
a GFCI in those areas, some inspectors wanted a single but the
exceptions are pretty much gone now.

As for AFCI, that has been expanded beyond the bedrooms for 15 years.

The book only claimed to include the latest revisions, not to be listing
only the latest revisions; I did not word my first paragraph carefully
enough. Our house was built before there were such things as AFCI
breakers (as far as I know), but I did substitute an AFCI breaker for
the original on the bedroom circuits a while back.

Perce

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 12:25:37 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

You need to cite that. I am not sure which rule you might be talking
about.

I was not reading the code itself: I was reading a _Codes for
Homeowners_ (or some such title) book that I picked up and skimmed while
I waited for assistance at one of the local Home Improvement stores. No
"chapter and verse" were cited.

_Home Improvement Book Recall: Contain Wiring Instructions Errors_

2010 - See more at:
http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/home-im...vySpBOFv.dpuf_

On 01/23/2015 01:04 PM, wrote:

I see that the latest NEC revisions prescribe that AFCI breakers are to
be used not merely for bedroom circuits but for just about every living
space -- OK, I guess.

But I see that it is now a violation to have a duplex outlet on a
GFCI-protected circuit for a single prescribed appliance, e.g.,
refrigerator, sump pump; why on earth...? (Someone suggested --
humorously, I guess -- that it was to sell more outlets and to make more
[paid] work for electricians, who would then have to install additional
circuits and outlets.)

You need to cite that. I am not sure which rule you might be talking
about.

I was not reading the code itself: I was reading a _Codes for
Homeowners_ (or some such title) book that I picked up and skimmed while
I waited for assistance at one of the local Home Improvement stores. No
"chapter and verse" were cited.

Those books are notoriously inaccurate and usually do not even cite
which code cycle they are talking about


The only one of those I have seen as being interpreted that way is the
15a receptacle behind a refrigerator in the kitchen and that is
because it is *not* required to be GFCI and not a 20a like the rest of
the circuits in a kitchen.

Kitchen circuits have to be 20A? And with 20A outlets, or still with
only 15A outlets but with wiring and breakers for 20A?

As long as you have more than one receptacle on the circuit, it is
legal to use 15a receptacles on a 20. A duplex is two for the purposes
of this rule. All kitchen receptacles except the one for the
refrigeration equipment have to be on 20a "small appliance" circuits
that can only serve the "kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room,
or similar area". (minimum of 2)

So the NEC is gradually moving toward separate "power" and "lighting"
circuits -- which the UK and Australia had eons ago?

Some jurisdictions say if it is only for
the fridge, it should be a single receptacle with no other outlets.
The flaw in that logic is you can have more than one piece of
"refrigeration equipment". (maybe a wine cooler next to the fridge or
a fridge and a freezer)
If it is not in the kitchen the fridge can be on any circuit
available. If it is a place requiring GFCI, it needs to be a GFCI.
Back when there were exceptions for things that did not need to be on
a GFCI in those areas, some inspectors wanted a single but the
exceptions are pretty much gone now.

As for AFCI, that has been expanded beyond the bedrooms for 15 years.

The book only claimed to include the latest revisions, not to be listing
only the latest revisions; I did not word my first paragraph carefully
enough. Our house was built before there were such things as AFCI
breakers (as far as I know), but I did substitute an AFCI breaker for
the original on the bedroom circuits a while back.

AFCIs originally showed up in the 99 code with deferred implementation
until 2002 (mostly because when they went to print the AFCI was not
available). Originally it was just bedrooms. By 2008 it was expanded
to "family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries,
dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or
similar rooms or areas" and they started recognizing the newer
versions of the AFCI that actually do what was promised in 1999.
Too bad if you paid a lot of money for the earlier, ineffective ones
at the point of a government gun. ;-)

It might have been about 2005/6 that I installed the AFCI breaker: it's
a CH breaker with a yellow-slider test switch. Any good?

Perce

On 01/23/2015 01:34 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 12:25:37 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

You need to cite that. I am not sure which rule you might be talking
about.

I was not reading the code itself: I was reading a _Codes for
Homeowners_ (or some such title) book that I picked up and skimmed while
I waited for assistance at one of the local Home Improvement stores. No
"chapter and verse" were cited.

_Home Improvement Book Recall: Contain Wiring Instructions Errors_

2010 - See more at:
http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/home-im...vySpBOFv.dpuf_

None of those. It was a Black and Decker book that claimed to be updated
to 2014.

Perce

On 01/23/2015 11:31 AM, dpb wrote:

But I see that it is now a violation to have a duplex outlet on a
GFCI-protected circuit for a single prescribed appliance, e.g.,
refrigerator, sump pump; why on earth...? ...
...
But it doesn't say (at least not according to the summary I was reading)
that it is a violation to have *additional* outlets on one of those
GFCI-protected circuits.

I know that existing installations do not have to be brought into
compliance with the new NEC at every change, but out of curiosity: both
our sump pump itself *and* the charger for the battery-powered backup
sump pump are plugged into a GFCI-protected duplex outlet; would that be
considered a violation of the new rule?
...

I haven't actually seen the new wording but if have additional outlets
on the circuit then it wouldn't be a dedicated circuit as prescribed...

But does it have to be a *dedicated* circuit? Only one appliance per
GFCI breaker? IF (big "if", as I haven't seen the Code itself, and IAC I
am not one of the priesthood authorized to interpret it) it merely says
that a refrigerator has to be on a GFCI-protected circuit, can the
kitchen refrigerator, the bar refrigerator, and the freezer in the
garage all be on that same GFCI-protected circuit?

Perce

On 1/23/2015 3:21 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

But does it have to be a *dedicated* circuit? Only one appliance per
GFCI breaker? IF (big "if", as I haven't seen the Code itself, and IAC I
am not one of the priesthood authorized to interpret it) it merely says
that a refrigerator has to be on a GFCI-protected circuit, can the
kitchen refrigerator, the bar refrigerator, and the freezer in the
garage all be on that same GFCI-protected circuit?

Perce



That does not sound like a smart combination. I hope you just used that
as an example. Garage circuits are on a GFCI anyway. Refrigerators and
freezers should be as isolated as possible from a practical point, but
if I had them on a circuit easily tripped, I'd want a night lite or
something that would let me know the circuit is out.

I cannot imagine having to pull out a fridge to reset the GFCI tripped
by some other source such as a power surge.

On 01/23/2015 06:13 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

But does it have to be a *dedicated* circuit? Only one appliance per
GFCI breaker? IF (big "if", as I haven't seen the Code itself, and IAC I
am not one of the priesthood authorized to interpret it) it merely says
that a refrigerator has to be on a GFCI-protected circuit, can the
kitchen refrigerator, the bar refrigerator, and the freezer in the
garage all be on that same GFCI-protected circuit?

That does not sound like a smart combination. I hope you just used that
as an example. Garage circuits are on a GFCI anyway. Refrigerators and
freezers should be as isolated as possible from a practical point, but
if I had them on a circuit easily tripped, I'd want a night lite or
something that would let me know the circuit is out.

I cannot imagine having to pull out a fridge to reset the GFCI tripped
by some other source such as a power surge.

Why "pull out" a fridge? I'm talking about a common circuit protected by
a GFCI *breaker*, not a GFCI outlet *behind* the freezer or fridge.

Are you suggested that every refrigerator and freezer should be on its
own circuit?

Perce

I cannot imagine having to pull out a fridge to reset the GFCI tripped
by some other source such as a power surge.

Why "pull out" a fridge? I'm talking about a common circuit protected by
a GFCI *breaker*, not a GFCI outlet *behind* the freezer or fridge.

Are you suggested that every refrigerator and freezer should be on its
own circuit?

Perce

I looked into this years ago and believe they are supposed to be on a dedicated circuit

presented the following explanation :
On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 13:38:56 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 01/23/2015 01:04 PM, wrote:

I see that the latest NEC revisions prescribe that AFCI breakers are to
be used not merely for bedroom circuits but for just about every living
space -- OK, I guess.

But I see that it is now a violation to have a duplex outlet on a
GFCI-protected circuit for a single prescribed appliance, e.g.,
refrigerator, sump pump; why on earth...? (Someone suggested --
humorously, I guess -- that it was to sell more outlets and to make more
[paid] work for electricians, who would then have to install additional
circuits and outlets.)

You need to cite that. I am not sure which rule you might be talking
about.

I was not reading the code itself: I was reading a _Codes for
Homeowners_ (or some such title) book that I picked up and skimmed while
I waited for assistance at one of the local Home Improvement stores. No
"chapter and verse" were cited.

Those books are notoriously inaccurate and usually do not even cite
which code cycle they are talking about


The only one of those I have seen as being interpreted that way is the
15a receptacle behind a refrigerator in the kitchen and that is
because it is *not* required to be GFCI and not a 20a like the rest of
the circuits in a kitchen.

Kitchen circuits have to be 20A? And with 20A outlets, or still with
only 15A outlets but with wiring and breakers for 20A?

As long as you have more than one receptacle on the circuit, it is
legal to use 15a receptacles on a 20. A duplex is two for the purposes
of this rule. All kitchen receptacles except the one for the
refrigeration equipment have to be on 20a "small appliance" circuits
that can only serve the "kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room,
or similar area". (minimum of 2)

So the NEC is gradually moving toward separate "power" and "lighting"
circuits -- which the UK and Australia had eons ago?

The only places where that is true is the kitchen and bathrooms where
you have special requirements for receptacle circuits that have "no
other outlets" and that is not even true in a bathroom if the circuit
only serves one bathroom.. (the receptacles can be on the same circuit
as the lights and fan in that case)

Australia as seperate receptacle and lighting circuits almost
exclusively.


Some jurisdictions say if it is only for
the fridge, it should be a single receptacle with no other outlets.
The flaw in that logic is you can have more than one piece of
"refrigeration equipment". (maybe a wine cooler next to the fridge or
a fridge and a freezer)
If it is not in the kitchen the fridge can be on any circuit
available. If it is a place requiring GFCI, it needs to be a GFCI.
Back when there were exceptions for things that did not need to be on
a GFCI in those areas, some inspectors wanted a single but the
exceptions are pretty much gone now.

As for AFCI, that has been expanded beyond the bedrooms for 15 years.

The book only claimed to include the latest revisions, not to be listing
only the latest revisions; I did not word my first paragraph carefully
enough. Our house was built before there were such things as AFCI
breakers (as far as I know), but I did substitute an AFCI breaker for
the original on the bedroom circuits a while back.
AFCIs originally showed up in the 99 code with deferred implementation
until 2002 (mostly because when they went to print the AFCI was not
available). Originally it was just bedrooms. By 2008 it was expanded
to "family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries,
dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or
similar rooms or areas" and they started recognizing the newer
versions of the AFCI that actually do what was promised in 1999.
Too bad if you paid a lot of money for the earlier, ineffective ones
at the point of a government gun. ;-)

It might have been about 2005/6 that I installed the AFCI breaker: it's
a CH breaker with a yellow-slider test switch. Any good?

Perce

That is better than the 2002 era AFCI assuming new stock but I think
the newer ones are better than that. Is it "CH CAFCI" model?
We are on about V2.2 on the AFCI with two main groups, the original
and the "combination" type (series and parallel fault)
There are incremental improvements within those groups as technology
got better.

--
John G Sydney.

On 1/23/2015 9:33 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 01/23/2015 06:13 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

But does it have to be a *dedicated* circuit? Only one appliance per
GFCI breaker? IF (big "if", as I haven't seen the Code itself, and IAC I
am not one of the priesthood authorized to interpret it) it merely says
that a refrigerator has to be on a GFCI-protected circuit, can the
kitchen refrigerator, the bar refrigerator, and the freezer in the
garage all be on that same GFCI-protected circuit?

That does not sound like a smart combination. I hope you just used that
as an example. Garage circuits are on a GFCI anyway. Refrigerators and
freezers should be as isolated as possible from a practical point, but
if I had them on a circuit easily tripped, I'd want a night lite or
something that would let me know the circuit is out.

I cannot imagine having to pull out a fridge to reset the GFCI tripped
by some other source such as a power surge.

Why "pull out" a fridge? I'm talking about a common circuit protected by
a GFCI *breaker*, not a GFCI outlet *behind* the freezer or fridge.

Are you suggested that every refrigerator and freezer should be on its
own circuit?

Perce

It is in my house and yes, it is located behind the fridge. My house is
34 years old so it is not GFCI.

My second fridge and freezer do not have individual circuits, but both
are not on the same one so little chance they would start at the same
time and cause an overload. They do take small loads running these days
though, just that startup may be more.

It can be protected by a GFCI that is upstream, but I don't think it is
good practice to have it on the same circuit as an electric fry pan,
toaster, and coffee maker. *ersonally, I don't see the need to have a
GFCI on a refrigerator but there may be some statistics that show
otherwise. I wonder how many service techs get clled out and all that
is needed is a reset.

I have a receptacle on the deck that of course is downstream from a
GFCI. It is located in the bathroom downstairs though.

pretended :
On Sat, 24 Jan 2015 15:24:57 +1100, John G wrote:

So the NEC is gradually moving toward separate "power" and "lighting"
circuits -- which the UK and Australia had eons ago?
The only places where that is true is the kitchen and bathrooms where
you have special requirements for receptacle circuits that have "no
other outlets" and that is not even true in a bathroom if the circuit
only serves one bathroom.. (the receptacles can be on the same circuit
as the lights and fan in that case)

Australia as seperate receptacle and lighting circuits almost
exclusively.

This isn't Australia. We require boxes behind the wall ;-)

http://lot271.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/img_2521.jpg

What are you trying to say?
And where is the picture from? Not australia I will bet.

We use seperate circuits from the main board for lighting and General
purpose outlets.

--
John G Sydney.

On 1/23/2015 11:21 PM, wrote:


I cannot imagine having to pull out a fridge to reset the GFCI tripped
by some other source such as a power surge.

A GFCI behind a fridge is illegal in 2011 NEC and beyond. They must be
"readily accessible" (without having to "climb over or remove
obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.")


Thanks for the clarification.

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 11:48:07 AM UTC-5, bob_villa wrote:
On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 10:21:30 AM UTC-6, John G wrote:

If the refrigerator is within six feet of the kitchen sink it must have GFI protection.

...and what if a refrigerator is more than 6 feet but has an icemaker plumbed?



*An icemaker is not a consideration for the 6' rule. Over six feet it is usually not possible for a human to touch the refigerator and the sink at the same time. This is why dishwashers are now required to be GFI protected. You can easily touch a dishwasher and the sink at the same time in many cases.

The electronic components that control appliances can break down over time and leak small amounts of current that won't trip a regular circuit breaker..

If the refrigerator is within six feet of the kitchen sink it must have GFI protection

Huh?
My copy of 210.8(A)(1) says "Sinks located in areas other than
kitchens where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the
outside edge of the sink."

What you say is true in the laundry or adjacent to a wet bar sink, but
not the refrigeration outlet in the kitchen. That is the reason why
*some* AHJs want it to be a single.

*In NEC 2014 article 210.8(A)(7) "Sinks___Where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6') of the outside edge of the sink." Also required under 210.8(B)(5)

In ,
typed:
On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 21:33:56 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

Are you suggested that every refrigerator and freezer should be on
its own circuit?

In a dwelling kitchen, they either have to be on a dedicated
"refrigeration equipment circuit" or on one of the "small appliance"
circuits.

Interesting. I didn't know that -- not that I claim to know all of the
codes. But, when I was re-doing kitchens in places that I own (a few years
ago), I remember thinking that the books and other information that I had
(not the NEC) seemed to be a little vague about the actual requirements for
a refrigerator.

Did the code requirements recently change to the above, or have they been
that way for years and I just didn't know it?

In ,
typed:
On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 18:13:43 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/23/2015 3:21 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

But does it have to be a *dedicated* circuit? Only one appliance per
GFCI breaker? IF (big "if", as I haven't seen the Code itself, and
IAC I am not one of the priesthood authorized to interpret it) it
merely says that a refrigerator has to be on a GFCI-protected
circuit, can the kitchen refrigerator, the bar refrigerator, and
the freezer in the garage all be on that same GFCI-protected
circuit?

Perce

That does not sound like a smart combination. I hope you just used
that as an example. Garage circuits are on a GFCI anyway.
Refrigerators and freezers should be as isolated as possible from a
practical point, but if I had them on a circuit easily tripped, I'd
want a night lite or something that would let me know the circuit is
out.

I cannot imagine having to pull out a fridge to reset the GFCI
tripped by some other source such as a power surge.

A GFCI behind a fridge is illegal in 2011 NEC and beyond. They must be
"readily accessible" (without having to "climb over or remove
obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.")

More news that I never knew about -- until now! Thanks for posting that.

So, for a residential kitchen fridge: a dedicated refrigeration circuit; on
a GFCI; and the GFCI cannot be behind the fridge.

Did I get that right?

In ,
typed:
On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:21:37 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 01/23/2015 11:31 AM, dpb wrote:

But I see that it is now a violation to have a duplex outlet on a
GFCI-protected circuit for a single prescribed appliance, e.g.,
refrigerator, sump pump; why on earth...? ...
...
But it doesn't say (at least not according to the summary I was
reading) that it is a violation to have *additional* outlets on
one of those GFCI-protected circuits.

I know that existing installations do not have to be brought into
compliance with the new NEC at every change, but out of curiosity:
both our sump pump itself *and* the charger for the
battery-powered backup sump pump are plugged into a GFCI-protected
duplex outlet; would that be considered a violation of the new
rule?
...

I haven't actually seen the new wording but if have additional
outlets on the circuit then it wouldn't be a dedicated circuit as
prescribed...

But does it have to be a *dedicated* circuit? Only one appliance per
GFCI breaker? IF (big "if", as I haven't seen the Code itself, and
IAC I am not one of the priesthood authorized to interpret it) it
merely says that a refrigerator has to be on a GFCI-protected
circuit, can the kitchen refrigerator, the bar refrigerator, and the
freezer in the garage all be on that same GFCI-protected circuit?

Perce

I am still waiting to see someone tell me where it says refrigerators
in the kitchen need to be on a GFCI. (in a dwelling)
The 2014 did add the dishwasher to the list and the whole kitchen is
on the AFCI list.

Oops, that changes another post that I just wrote above.

In ,
TomR typed:
In ,
typed:
On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 18:13:43 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:
On 1/23/2015 3:21 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

But does it have to be a *dedicated* circuit? Only one appliance
per GFCI breaker? IF (big "if", as I haven't seen the Code itself,
and IAC I am not one of the priesthood authorized to interpret it)
it merely says that a refrigerator has to be on a GFCI-protected
circuit, can the kitchen refrigerator, the bar refrigerator, and
the freezer in the garage all be on that same GFCI-protected
circuit?

Perce

That does not sound like a smart combination. I hope you just used
that as an example. Garage circuits are on a GFCI anyway.
Refrigerators and freezers should be as isolated as possible from a
practical point, but if I had them on a circuit easily tripped, I'd
want a night lite or something that would let me know the circuit is
out.

I cannot imagine having to pull out a fridge to reset the GFCI
tripped by some other source such as a power surge.

A GFCI behind a fridge is illegal in 2011 NEC and beyond. They must
be "readily accessible" (without having to "climb over or remove
obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.")

More news that I never knew about -- until now! Thanks for posting
that.
So, for a residential kitchen fridge: a dedicated refrigeration
circuit; on a GFCI; and the GFCI cannot be behind the fridge.

Did I get that right?

Oops, I see that I got that wrong after reading another of your posts where
you wrote:

"I am still waiting to see someone tell me where it says refrigerators
in the kitchen need to be on a GFCI. (in a dwelling)
The 2014 did add the dishwasher to the list and the whole kitchen is
on the AFCI list."

So, a residential fridge in the kitchen does not need to be on a GFCI.

I wish you people would make my mind up :-)

....everyone blew-over my question? 'Thinking'~maybe they all have me kill-filed~
Such is life in mediocrity.

"bob_villa" wrote in message
...
...everyone blew-over my question? 'Thinking'~maybe they all have me
kill-filed~
Such is life in mediocrity.

What question? About icemakers and the 6 foot rule? I think John G
answered that one. I'd add that most icemakers I've seen are plumbed with
plastic tubing which would tend, IMHO, to mitigate any shock hazard.

--
Bobby G.

My second fridge and freezer do not have individual circuits, but both
are not on the same one so little chance they would start at the same
time and cause an overload. They do take small loads running these days
though, just that startup may be more.

ahh take a power failure situation that lasts for awhile. in this case both fridges will likely turn on at the same time, breaker trips and if no one is home you could lose both fridges food

But does it have to be a *dedicated* circuit? Only one appliance
per GFCI breaker? IF (big "if", as I haven't seen the Code itself,
and IAC I am not one of the priesthood authorized to interpret it)
it merely says that a refrigerator has to be on a GFCI-protected
circuit, can the kitchen refrigerator, the bar refrigerator, and
the freezer in the garage all be on that same GFCI-protected
circuit?

Perce

That does not sound like a smart combination. I hope you just used
that as an example. Garage circuits are on a GFCI anyway.
Refrigerators and freezers should be as isolated as possible from a
practical point, but if I had them on a circuit easily tripped, I'd
want a night lite or something that would let me know the circuit is
out.

I cannot imagine having to pull out a fridge to reset the GFCI
tripped by some other source such as a power surge.

A GFCI behind a fridge is illegal in 2011 NEC and beyond. They must
be "readily accessible" (without having to "climb over or remove
obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.")

More news that I never knew about -- until now! Thanks for posting
that.
So, for a residential kitchen fridge: a dedicated refrigeration
circuit; on a GFCI; and the GFCI cannot be behind the fridge.

Did I get that right?

Oops, I see that I got that wrong after reading another of your posts where
you wrote:

"I am still waiting to see someone tell me where it says refrigerators
in the kitchen need to be on a GFCI. (in a dwelling)
The 2014 did add the dishwasher to the list and the whole kitchen is
on the AFCI list."

So, a residential fridge in the kitchen does not need to be on a GFCI.

I wish you people would make my mind up :-)


*The receptacle for the refrigerator only needs to be GFCI protected if it is within six feet of the sink. As someone pointed out, it needs to be accessible for testing purposes. If you want it to be dedicated, you could put a faceless GFCI somewhere accessible to protect the refrigerator outlet. It does require AFCI protection as well.

The wording was changed in the 2014 code. The decriptive terms were deleted and the only word left is "Sinks". Any outlet within six feet of a sink, including commercial installations, requires GFCI protection.

On Saturday, January 24, 2015 at 5:42:58 PM UTC-6, Robert Green wrote:
"bob_villa" wrote in message
...
...everyone blew-over my question? 'Thinking'~maybe they all have me
kill-filed~
Such is life in mediocrity.

What question? About icemakers and the 6 foot rule? I think John G
answered that one. I'd add that most icemakers I've seen are plumbed with
plastic tubing which would tend, IMHO, to mitigate any shock hazard.

--
Bobby G.

Isn't water conduction the point of GFCI?

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:AcGdnQPmy9EGSF_JnZ2dnUU7-

I cannot imagine having to pull out a fridge to reset the GFCI tripped
by some other source such as a power surge.

When I added several new 20A circuits to the kitchen I used GFCI's on all of
the circuits. The upstairs outlet were fed from the basement where the
GFCI's were located just to avoid the problem you've noted - moving the
fridge to reset the GFCI.

I'm a little concerned because it sounds to me from what I've read here that
it wasn't NEC-worthy to have the new kitchen outlets wired downstream from
the GFCI outlets in the basement. But it certainly seems more sensible than
burying a GFCI and its reset and test button behind the fridge.

This is an old house with 15A cloth covered wires and only two circuits
feeding the kitchen. With all the kitchen appliances we would alway be
tripping a breaker if we were careful. The refrigerator often tripped the
GFCI. It got so frequent that I bought a little relay/buzzer unit that
sounds an alarm whenever an outlet it's plugged into looses power. That had
really low spouse approval so I was tempted to put the fridge on a non-GFCI
circuit. Then I read two things here that helped solve the problem.

One thread talked about how old refrigerators often developed ground faults.
The other was how inefficient old refrigerators are compared to new unit.
Turns out the 30 year old refrigerator had a real ground fault (I think it
was the insulation which had become moisture soaked). In any event, a new
unit (and a new GFCI - I had used some old Slater units I had purchased in
the 80's) eliminated the nuisance tripping problem.

The biggest bonus was how much less the new unit cost to run that the old
one. The new unit uses less than half the juice as the old one. I suspect
it's both the more efficient compressor and the newer and much thicker
insulation. I suspect that the final "cost to run" analysis won't be as
rosy as it seems just based on the lower electric bill. First, I'm afraid
that the new unit won't last thirty years. The compressor's already become
pretty noisy (it started two weeks after the warranty expired) and I've
already had to repair the door light switch because it didn't mate properly
with the door and repair a sagging door.

The magnetic gasketing isn't very strong either. When you close the
refrigerator compartment door, the freezer door pops open slightly. It
*usually* recloses but when the freezer is very full, I've had it stay
slightly ajar causing major headaches during humid weather. Just last week
I added some super neodynium magnets to the freezer door. Now the door
doesn't "pop" when the lower door is closed and it really makes a positive
sounding "snap" when the magnets mate. I might do the same for the lower
compartment. The snapping sound turns out to be important feedback in
making sure the doors are completely closed.

--
Bobby G.

On 01/24/2015 06:44 PM, John G wrote:

*The receptacle for the refrigerator only needs to be GFCI protected if it is within six feet of the sink. As someone pointed out, it needs to be accessible for testing purposes. If you want it to be dedicated, you could put a faceless GFCI somewhere accessible to protect the refrigerator outlet. It does require AFCI protection as well.

Are there breakers that are both GFCI and AFCI?

Perce

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 7:28:03 AM UTC-8, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
I see that the latest NEC revisions prescribe that AFCI breakers are to
be used not merely for bedroom circuits but for just about every living
space -- OK, I guess.

But I see that it is now a violation to have a duplex outlet on a
GFCI-protected circuit for a single prescribed appliance, e.g.,
refrigerator, sump pump; why on earth...? (Someone suggested --
humorously, I guess -- that it was to sell more outlets and to make more
[paid] work for electricians, who would then have to install additional
circuits and outlets.)

Perce

1st off,a dedicated circuit is supposed to mean it's dedicated.
2nd, The devices that require dedicated circuits will pull LRA or Locked Rotor Amps upon start up, although this will only be for a second or 3, it is 3 times or more the RLA or Run Load Amps of the devices.

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 7:28:03 AM UTC-8, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
I see that the latest NEC revisions prescribe that AFCI breakers are to
be used not merely for bedroom circuits but for just about every living
space -- OK, I guess.

But I see that it is now a violation to have a duplex outlet on a
GFCI-protected circuit for a single prescribed appliance, e.g.,
refrigerator, sump pump; why on earth...? (Someone suggested --
humorously, I guess -- that it was to sell more outlets and to make more
[paid] work for electricians, who would then have to install additional
circuits and outlets.)

Perce

A GFI with any device that pulls LRA at start up will have nuisance trips almost without a doubt,especially if it gets foggy with the unit outdoors.

On 1/24/2015 8:27 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 01/24/2015 06:44 PM, John G wrote:

*The receptacle for the refrigerator only needs to be GFCI protected
if it is within six feet of the sink. As someone pointed out, it
needs to be accessible for testing purposes. If you want it to be
dedicated, you could put a faceless GFCI somewhere accessible to
protect the refrigerator outlet. It does require AFCI protection as
well.

Are there breakers that are both GFCI and AFCI?

Perce


Yes
http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-Q115DF.../dp/B00LN74SX4

As well as others

"bob_villa" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, January 24, 2015 at 5:42:58 PM UTC-6, Robert Green wrote:
"bob_villa" wrote in message
...
...everyone blew-over my question? 'Thinking'~maybe they all have me
kill-filed~
Such is life in mediocrity.

What question? About icemakers and the 6 foot rule? I think John G
answered that one. I'd add that most icemakers I've seen are plumbed
with
plastic tubing which would tend, IMHO, to mitigate any shock hazard.

--
Bobby G.

Isn't water conduction the point of GFCI?

Yes, but . . . I'd think the shock hazard is greatest when you're dealing
with things like metal sinks and actual contact with grounded wet surfaces
that improve conduction. With an icemaker you've got narrow diameter
plastic tubing and tap water, whose conductivity will vary with the ion
content of the water and very little chance of contact with liquid water or
the tubing that delivers it to the unit in normal use.

The truth is that I really don't know what the NEC says. I've read lots of
articles that say not to use a GFCI with a refrigerator because of nuisance
trips when the unit starts, but my GE box and Leviton GFCI have lived
happily with each other for over two years now.

Remember, I did say 'mitigate' and not 'eliminate' any shock hazard. (-:
After all, plastic piping is one reason that grounding rules have changed in
recent years. Even when they are filled with water, they don't make a very
good ground. It is an interesting point. Maybe someone out there knows
what the NEC actually says about icemakers, GFCIs, distance rules and
grounding.

I looked around and found this site:

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/gfci-...-fridge-10639/

While the posters there are kicking around the same issues, one comment
seems germane:

"The Refrigerator can be fed with a 15A Dedicated Circuit or on the 20A
Kitchen Circuit......but since it is not on the counter top it does not have
to be GFCI."

There's a very lengthy thread about GFCIs and nuisance trips from motors
he

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/gfci-...-23176/index4/

IIRC, the last time I researched this is that early models of GFCIs, like
AFCIs, were far more prone to nuisance tripping than current models. It's
not nearly the problem it used to be and that's why my refrigerator is on a
GFCI (and not a dedicated circuit - which I might run the next time I decide
to add another circuit in the house. We recently bought an electric skillet
that managed to trip the breaker during Thanksgiving when everything was
running at once.

--
Bobby G.

On Saturday, January 24, 2015 at 10:05:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2015 15:36:38 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:



My second fridge and freezer do not have individual circuits, but both
are not on the same one so little chance they would start at the same
time and cause an overload. They do take small loads running these days
though, just that startup may be more.

ahh take a power failure situation that lasts for awhile. in this case both fridges will likely turn on at the same time, breaker trips and if no one is home you could lose both fridges food


That is old school thinking. Modern refrigerators are low current
appliances these days, even when starting. Most modern breakers are
HACR anyway and are curved to handle a compressor or two starting.
I have a big side by side and with the doors closed, running, it only
pulls a few amps. Opening the doors and turning the (4) lights on
bumps it up about 50%.

During hurricane Sandy I was running off a generator and had my KillaWatt
meter inline. Had a fridge and a freezer, one was about 7 years old, the
other 2. When either went to start, I saw the power blip up to
about 350 watts for a couple seconds, then it started to quickly decline.
Once running they pull less than 100W. So, I agree, I don't see the
startup of two modern fridges being an issue. Even my 25 year old one
that I replaced pulled only 250W when running. IDK what the startup
draw was, but you would think even two of those would be OK on a 15A
circuit.

In ,
typed:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2015 17:29:17 -0500, "TomR" wrote:

In ,
typed:
On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 21:33:56 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

Are you suggested that every refrigerator and freezer should be on
its own circuit?

In a dwelling kitchen, they either have to be on a dedicated
"refrigeration equipment circuit" or on one of the "small appliance"
circuits.

Interesting. I didn't know that -- not that I claim to know all of
the codes. But, when I was re-doing kitchens in places that I own
(a few years ago), I remember thinking that the books and other
information that I had (not the NEC) seemed to be a little vague
about the actual requirements for a refrigerator.

Did the code requirements recently change to the above, or have they
been that way for years and I just didn't know it?

The dedicated 15a fridge circuit has been in the code since 1996 and
the minimum 2 small appliance circuit requirement was 1990. It is
really just relief from the otherwise required 20a requirement on the
rest of the receptacles.

Thanks. I knew about the 2 small appliance circuit requirements, but the
dedicated fridge circuit requirement was the one that stumped me. I like
the idea of a dedicated fridge circuit requirement and I always try to do
that anyway since I think it is a good idea.

On Saturday, January 24, 2015 at 10:35:28 PM UTC-6, Robert Green wrote:
"bob_villa" wrote in message

Isn't water conduction the point of GFCI?

Yes, but . . . I'd think the shock hazard is greatest when you're dealing
with things like metal sinks and actual contact with grounded wet surfaces
that improve conduction. With an icemaker you've got narrow diameter
plastic tubing and tap water, whose conductivity will vary with the ion
content of the water and very little chance of contact with liquid water or
the tubing that delivers it to the unit in normal use.

Thanks Mr. Green!

On 1/25/2015 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2015 08:02:43 -0800 (PST), bob_villa
wrote:

On Saturday, January 24, 2015 at 10:35:28 PM UTC-6, Robert Green wrote:
"bob_villa" wrote in message

Isn't water conduction the point of GFCI?

Yes, but . . . I'd think the shock hazard is greatest when you're dealing
with things like metal sinks and actual contact with grounded wet surfaces
that improve conduction. With an icemaker you've got narrow diameter
plastic tubing and tap water, whose conductivity will vary with the ion
content of the water and very little chance of contact with liquid water or
the tubing that delivers it to the unit in normal use.

Thanks Mr. Green!

I do think this GFCI thing seems to be out of control.
It made sense to have GFCI on the small appliance circuits since most
of them do not use grounded plugs but the dishwasher and fridge have
grounded cases. The same is true of washers and dryers and the washing
machine receptacle is required to be GFCI now too.
Can the dryer be far behind? If not, why not?

Are there 220V gfci plugs or breakers even available?

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.