I forgot to put the foam cover on the water spigot in my unheated garage. The pipe to the spigot runs for about ten feet through a wall that is common with the garage and my living room. I turned off that supply line in the basement; now I'm afraid to turn it back on in case the pipe has burst. I can't think of any way to know if the pipe burst without turning on the water and waiting to see if it comes through the wall into the living room. Any better ideas?

wrote in message
...
I forgot to put the foam cover on the water spigot in my unheated garage.
The pipe to the spigot runs for about ten feet through a wall that is
common with the garage and my living room. I turned off that supply line in
the basement; now I'm afraid to turn it back on in case the pipe has burst.
I can't think of any way to know if the pipe burst without turning on the
water and waiting to see if it comes through the wall into the living room.
Any better ideas?

When it warms up put some air pressure on the spigot and see if you loose
the air. Be sure to turn on the outside spigot.

wrote:
I forgot to put the foam cover on the water spigot in my unheated
garage. The pipe to the spigot runs for about ten feet through a wall
that is common with the garage and my living room. I turned off that
supply line in the basement; now I'm afraid to turn it back on in
case the pipe has burst. I can't think of any way to know if the pipe
burst without turning on the water and waiting to see if it comes
through the wall into the living room. Any better ideas?

If you drained the pipe after turning off the water, and the turn-off valve
works properly, you should have no problem

On 1/14/2015 9:23 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message
...
I forgot to put the foam cover on the water spigot in my unheated garage.
The pipe to the spigot runs for about ten feet through a wall that is
common with the garage and my living room. I turned off that supply line in
the basement; now I'm afraid to turn it back on in case the pipe has burst.
I can't think of any way to know if the pipe burst without turning on the
water and waiting to see if it comes through the wall into the living room.
Any better ideas?

When it warms up put some air pressure on the spigot and see if you loose
the air. Be sure to turn on the outside spigot.


I'd use a vacuum.
Suck on the end of the hose.
If you use pressure and it's broke, all the water in the pipe will end
up in your wall.

On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:57:39 -0800, "Bob F" wrote:

wrote:
I forgot to put the foam cover on the water spigot in my unheated

I did the same one year but nothing froze. OTOH my situation is not
exactly like yours.

Is the spigot in the garage? Is the garage door shut most of the
time? All of the time? Even unheated, the garage provides some level
of insulation against the cold. After all, the foam cover is unheated
inside, but it often keeps the pipe from freezing. I gather it has been
enough in prior years.

(If you open the garage door to let in the car, the heat of the car and
of your body I would guess matches the heat lost through the open garage
door.)

garage. The pipe to the spigot runs for about ten feet through a wall
that is common with the garage and my living room. I turned off that
supply line in the basement;

When? Before it got cold or after you thought the pipe may have
burst?

As you probably figured out by now, there is really no point to turning
off the water unless you also drain the pipe from the valve to the
spigot. And in many cases you can't even drain the pipe by opening
the spigot because part of the pipe runs uphill That's what the bleeder
valve on the turn-off-valve is for, a little brass cylinder that you
open after you turn off the water, open the spigot, and then go back
inside to drain the pipe.

Although the foam cover may be enough depending on the weather where you
live (where is that?)

now I'm afraid to turn it back on in
case the pipe has burst. I can't think of any way to know if the pipe
burst without turning on the water and waiting to see if it comes
through the wall into the living room. Any better ideas?

What happens when you turn the water on at the spigot?

Regardless of the answers above, I sort of think you should act now,
because there may be colder periods ahead in the next 6 or 7 weeks.

Maybe you need 3 or 4 people. First turn the water on at the spigot.
Does the slightest amount of water come out? Of course not much will
because the inside valve is closed.

Now you need one person to turn the water on a trickle at the inside
valve, one to immediately note and report if water is coming out at the
spigot and how much, and two to watch the wall in question, both inside
the house and inside the garage, to immediately report signs of water
leakage. Since it's only open a trickle, you may have to wait 10??
minutes. You may have to wait 30 but then you can make the rounds and
do the checking If they see any wetness, turn off the inside valve
immediately.

Can you patch it from the garage side?


If there is no sign of leaking and the water runs out the spigot even a
tifle, let it run and it it will melt any ice in the pipe and the water
flow will soon match how much the inside valve is open.

If you drained the pipe after turning off the water, and the turn-off valve
works properly, you should have no problem

Sarcasm? I'm sure he didn't do all that or he wouldn't need the foam
cover at all.

On Wednesday, January 14, 2015 at 11:38:07 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I forgot to put the foam cover on the water spigot in my unheated garage. The pipe to the spigot runs for about ten feet through a wall that is common with the garage and my living room. I turned off that supply line in the basement; now I'm afraid to turn it back on in case the pipe has burst. I can't think of any way to know if the pipe burst without turning on the water and waiting to see if it comes through the wall into the living room. Any better ideas?

From experience, you should know how cold it gets in the garage with
recent outside temps. Does stuff easily freeze? It sounds like only
the spigot is in the garage, with the pipe going directly into the
heated living space. It's likely there is enough heat transfer that
it wouldn't freeze unless the garage was left open, got extremely cold,
heat in the house was off, etc., without the insulation cover.
I'd say you probably have nothing to worry about.

The correct implemenation there is to use a freeze proof sill cock.
Then there is no need to shut off the water, drain it, etc. And you
can have water during the winter, if needed. You could put one in,
but it would require access to the pipe on the other side of the wall.

On 01/14/2015 10:38 PM, wrote:
I forgot to put the foam cover on the water spigot in my unheated garage. The pipe to the spigot runs for about ten feet through a wall that is common with the garage and my living room. I turned off that supply line in the basement; now I'm afraid to turn it back on in case the pipe has burst. I can't think of any way to know if the pipe burst without turning on the water and waiting to see if it comes through the wall into the living room. Any better ideas?




A foam cover is not going to do much, so if you forgot to put it on it
should not be a big deal. Hopefully you had enough sense to drain the
pipe...but even if you forgot to do that...it's not likely the portion
behind a heated wall would freeze.

On 1/14/2015 11:38 PM, wrote:
I forgot to put the foam cover on the water spigot in my unheated garage. The pipe to the spigot runs for about ten feet through a wall that is common with the garage and my living room. I turned off that supply line in the basement; now I'm afraid to turn it back on in case the pipe has burst. I can't think of any way to know if the pipe burst without turning on the water and waiting to see if it comes through the wall into the living room. Any better ideas?

In my old house near Chicago, I had an attached garage with a bedroom
over it. The faucet was on the front of the garage. The garage was
basically unheated, however, there was a heating register in the garage,
built before local codes prohibited that. But, it was mostly closed.
There was a shutoff/drain in the basement. The pipe ran under the
concrete garage floor, came up just inside the front wall, went up the
wall on the surface of the drywall, turned and went to the sill cock. I
would shut off the valve, open the drain in the basement and open the
sill cock outside. Maybe 1/2 cup of water would drain back; certainly
not an amount for approximately 30' of 1/2" pipe. I'm sure it froze
every winter. Never had a problem unless a hose was left attached.

The one time I had some experience with the foam covers, was at my
father-in-law's house. He'd put it on religiously every year, even
though it was a so called freeze proof faucet. It froze and burst inside
of a bedroom closet, just on the other side where the faucet was
located. So, I too, think foam covers are snake oil.

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On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 7:52:26 AM UTC-5, philo* wrote:
On 01/14/2015 10:38 PM, wrote:
I forgot to put the foam cover on the water spigot in my unheated garage. The pipe to the spigot runs for about ten feet through a wall that is common with the garage and my living room. I turned off that supply line in the basement; now I'm afraid to turn it back on in case the pipe has burst. I can't think of any way to know if the pipe burst without turning on the water and waiting to see if it comes through the wall into the living room. Any better ideas?




A foam cover is not going to do much, so if you forgot to put it on it
should not be a big deal. Hopefully you had enough sense to drain the
pipe...but even if you forgot to do that...it's not likely the portion
behind a heated wall would freeze.

I would think a foam cover would help a bit, but I agree, I don't think
it will help a lot. It would be interesting to see some test results
where they were actually tested to see the temp diff with and without.
They would help more outside, where they would keep the wind off of it.
But I think the bottom line is, what good are they really? If it's
subject to freezing, then it should be turned off and drained or
even better, a freeze proof sillcock. I sure wouldn't rely on one.

Art Todesco wrote:

The one time I had some experience with the foam covers, was at my
father-in-law's house. He'd put it on religiously every year, even
though it was a so called freeze proof faucet. It froze and burst inside
of a bedroom closet, just on the other side where the faucet was
located. So, I too, think foam covers are snake oil.

Foam works fine -- if there is heat tape under it. Even if there is water
flow periodically it might help conserve the heat but it's not going to
generate any heat by itself.

If you shut off the water in the cellar there should
be no problem. In the Spring, just turn it back on.
It should "hiss" for maybe 2-4 seconds as the pipe
refills. If that hissing sound of running water doesn't
stop then you know you have a burst pipe.

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 10:20:52 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

If you shut off the water in the cellar there should
be no problem. In the Spring, just turn it back on.
It should "hiss" for maybe 2-4 seconds as the pipe
refills. If that hissing sound of running water doesn't
stop then you know you have a burst pipe.

Exactly! It is unlikely that your pipe burst, but do what this guy
says and you will sure in the spring.

On 01/15/2015 08:37 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 7:52:26 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 01/14/2015 10:38 PM, wrote:
I forgot to put the foam cover on the water spigot in my unheated garage. The pipe to the spigot runs for about ten feet through a wall that is common with the garage and my living room. I turned off that supply line in the basement; now I'm afraid to turn it back on in case the pipe has burst. I can't think of any way to know if the pipe burst without turning on the water and waiting to see if it comes through the wall into the living room. Any better ideas?




A foam cover is not going to do much, so if you forgot to put it on it
should not be a big deal. Hopefully you had enough sense to drain the
pipe...but even if you forgot to do that...it's not likely the portion
behind a heated wall would freeze.

I would think a foam cover would help a bit, but I agree, I don't think
it will help a lot. It would be interesting to see some test results
where they were actually tested to see the temp diff with and without.
They would help more outside, where they would keep the wind off of it.
But I think the bottom line is, what good are they really? If it's
subject to freezing, then it should be turned off and drained or
even better, a freeze proof sillcock. I sure wouldn't rely on one.




Even if the spigot was insulated, if it's out doors it's going to approx
reach ambient temperature. A small amount of heat from the house might
be retained but I don't think much.

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 10:26:19 -0500, Pat wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 10:20:52 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

If you shut off the water in the cellar there should
be no problem. In the Spring, just turn it back on.
It should "hiss" for maybe 2-4 seconds as the pipe
refills. If that hissing sound of running water doesn't
stop then you know you have a burst pipe.

Exactly! It is unlikely that your pipe burst, but do what this guy
says and you will sure in the spring.
I always see typos later. I left out the word "be" - ...you will be
sure in the spring.

wrote:
I forgot to put the foam cover on the water spigot in my unheated garage. The pipe to the spigot runs for about ten feet through a wall that is common with the garage and my living room. I turned off that supply line in the basement; now I'm afraid to turn it back on in case the pipe has burst. I can't think of any way to know if the pipe burst without turning on the water and waiting to see if it comes through the wall into the living room. Any better ideas?

Hi,
In that case I highly doubt there sat full volume of water in the pipe.
Spring comes, just slowly open up the water. I have 3 spigots, 2
outside, 1 in the unheated garage, I shut off all of them from inside
the basement and leave the spigots open after that. But I blow sprinkler
system for sure.

On 1/15/2015 10:39 AM, Pat wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 10:26:19 -0500, Pat wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 10:20:52 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

If you shut off the water in the cellar there should
be no problem. In the Spring, just turn it back on.
It should "hiss" for maybe 2-4 seconds as the pipe
refills. If that hissing sound of running water doesn't
stop then you know you have a burst pipe.

Exactly! It is unlikely that your pipe burst, but do what this guy
says and you will sure in the spring.
I always see typos later. I left out the word "be" - ...you will be
sure in the spring.

I really don't understand the logic here.
If your pipe is empty, no problem, it ain't frozen or broke.
If it is frozen or broke it's because it has water in it.
And if you leave it that way, it may freeze in a different place and break
there too.
If you can, get the water out NOW!

| I really don't understand the logic here.
| If your pipe is empty, no problem, it ain't frozen or broke.
| If it is frozen or broke it's because it has water in it.
| And if you leave it that way, it may freeze in a different place and break
| there too.
| If you can, get the water out NOW!

He's already turned off the water. I've never
seen a pipe burst when the water's been turned
off. Covering the faucet itself would have been
unlikely to do anything, so it doesn't matter that
he forgot to do that.

I have a similar situation. I've got a water pipe
going through my unheated shop -- which right now
is well below freezing -- to an outdoor spigot. I shut
off the valve in the heated part of the cellar in
the fall. I'm not worried that the pipe may burst.
If that were a worry then we'd all have to have
a gizmo to suck water from outdoor taps every fall.
I've never heard of anyone having or using such
a gizmo.

So.... It's almost certain the pipe hasn't burst.

If it did, how can it burst again with less water
in it than it had before? (Remember the theoretical
burst will have released pressure, and the valve in
the cellar is closed, so no additional water can get
into the pipe until Spring.) What you're proposing
is that water in a burst pipe, which will certainly drain
and evaporate a bit if it thaws, could then somehow
refreeze with such pressure that it would burst the
pipe again in a second location. It just doesn't work
that way.

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 22:21:33 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| I really don't understand the logic here.
| If your pipe is empty, no problem, it ain't frozen or broke.
| If it is frozen or broke it's because it has water in it.
| And if you leave it that way, it may freeze in a different place and break
| there too.
| If you can, get the water out NOW!

He's already turned off the water. I've never
seen a pipe burst when the water's been turned
off. Covering the faucet itself would have been
unlikely to do anything, so it doesn't matter that
he forgot to do that.

I have a similar situation. I've got a water pipe
going through my unheated shop -- which right now
is well below freezing -- to an outdoor spigot. I shut
off the valve in the heated part of the cellar in
the fall. I'm not worried that the pipe may burst.
If that were a worry then we'd all have to have
a gizmo to suck water from outdoor taps every fall.
I've never heard of anyone having or using such
a gizmo.

So.... It's almost certain the pipe hasn't burst.

If it did, how can it burst again with less water
in it than it had before? (Remember the theoretical
burst will have released pressure, and the valve in
the cellar is closed, so no additional water can get
into the pipe until Spring.) What you're proposing
is that water in a burst pipe, which will certainly drain
and evaporate a bit if it thaws, could then somehow
refreeze with such pressure that it would burst the
pipe again in a second location. It just doesn't work
that way.

Actually, sometimes it does. I've seen pipes split with the water
turned off and the tap open. If water pools in a low spot, totally
filling a sizeable section of pipe, it can split - and it can split a
second low spot a day or two later.

| Actually, sometimes it does. I've seen pipes split with the water
| turned off and the tap open. If water pools in a low spot, totally
| filling a sizeable section of pipe, it can split - and it can split a
| second low spot a day or two later.

It sounds like you've got some 3 Stooges pipes,
turning down and then back up again in an exterior
wall.

On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 10:54:34 PM UTC-5, Mayayana wrote:
| Actually, sometimes it does. I've seen pipes split with the water
| turned off and the tap open. If water pools in a low spot, totally
| filling a sizeable section of pipe, it can split - and it can split a
| second low spot a day or two later.

It sounds like you've got some 3 Stooges pipes,
turning down and then back up again in an exterior
wall.

I worked at a company that tried to save $$ by turning off the heat in the warehouse. Most of the water in the building was shut off too. Plumbers drained lines, it cost a fortune

Complaints were filed with the city lack of bathrooms etc.

So the heat was turned back on, to the delight of everyone who was working in freezing conditions with 75 people sharing just one toilet....

I happened to be in the warehouse when the water was turned back on. a big mess, low spots in the lines, had leaks everywhere and a major flood.

fixing the broken lines took over a week, and cost a fortune. management later admitted shutting off the heat was a major mistake

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 22:55:58 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| Actually, sometimes it does. I've seen pipes split with the water
| turned off and the tap open. If water pools in a low spot, totally
| filling a sizeable section of pipe, it can split - and it can split a
| second low spot a day or two later.

It sounds like you've got some 3 Stooges pipes,
turning down and then back up again in an exterior
wall.

Nope. It was in a saggy barn. Get down below zero F and you were
fixing pipes, particularly if you had a good wind blowing through and
had no hogs in the front. The dairy side was seldom a problem.

On 1/15/2015 8:52 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
There was a shutoff/drain in the basement. The pipe ran under the
concrete garage floor, came up just inside the front wall, went up the
wall on the surface of the drywall, turned and went to the sill cock. I
would shut off the valve, open the drain in the basement and open the
sill cock outside. Maybe 1/2 cup of water would drain back; certainly
not an amount for approximately 30' of 1/2" pipe. I'm sure it froze
every winter. Never had a problem unless a hose was left attached.


You'd be amazed how many people don't understand
the simple requirement to remove the hose before
freezing weather.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 1/15/2015 10:13 AM, rbowman wrote:
Art Todesco wrote:

The one time I had some experience with the foam covers, was at my
father-in-law's house. He'd put it on religiously every year, even
though it was a so called freeze proof faucet. It froze and burst inside
of a bedroom closet, just on the other side where the faucet was
located. So, I too, think foam covers are snake oil.

Foam works fine -- if there is heat tape under it. Even if there is water
flow periodically it might help conserve the heat but it's not going to
generate any heat by itself.

Need to buy the case lot, and some asbestos
siding. Three times a day, you go light
the cover on fire, and that warms the faucet.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 1/15/2015 1:39 PM, Pat wrote:
Exactly! It is unlikely that your pipe burst, but do what this guy
says and you will sure in the spring.
I always see typos later. I left out the word "be" - ...you will be
sure in the spring.


I'd not about it. We know what meant.

As to the frozen pipe, yes, very possible.
Hope when it thaws, it doesn't turn out to
be a leaker.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 10:20:09 PM UTC-5, Mayayana wrote:
| I really don't understand the logic here.
| If your pipe is empty, no problem, it ain't frozen or broke.
| If it is frozen or broke it's because it has water in it.
| And if you leave it that way, it may freeze in a different place and break
| there too.
| If you can, get the water out NOW!

He's already turned off the water. I've never
seen a pipe burst when the water's been turned
off.

Why wouldn't it? Pipe is still full of water, it expands,
it busts. Just like putting a closed bottle of water
in a freezer.



Covering the faucet itself would have been
unlikely to do anything, so it doesn't matter that
he forgot to do that.

I have a similar situation. I've got a water pipe
going through my unheated shop -- which right now
is well below freezing -- to an outdoor spigot. I shut
off the valve in the heated part of the cellar in
the fall. I'm not worried that the pipe may burst.

You should be. What matters is if the pipe is full of
water. When water freezes, it expands, where is it going
to go? I've seen houses winterized that were unoccupied,
where the low point drain was opened, etc., yet pipes
burst in low spots, because they still had water in them
that couldn't run out.


If that were a worry then we'd all have to have
a gizmo to suck water from outdoor taps every fall.
I've never heard of anyone having or using such
a gizmo.


There are millions of sillcocks installed with an inside
shutoff valve that has a small drain cap. To winterize,
you shut it off, then open the sillcock and open the little
drain cap on the valve, allowing the water to run out.

On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 11:14:34 PM UTC-5, bob haller wrote:
On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 10:54:34 PM UTC-5, Mayayana wrote:
| Actually, sometimes it does. I've seen pipes split with the water
| turned off and the tap open. If water pools in a low spot, totally
| filling a sizeable section of pipe, it can split - and it can split a
| second low spot a day or two later.

It sounds like you've got some 3 Stooges pipes,
turning down and then back up again in an exterior
wall.

I worked at a company that tried to save $$ by turning off the heat in the warehouse. Most of the water in the building was shut off too. Plumbers drained lines, it cost a fortune

Complaints were filed with the city lack of bathrooms etc.

So the heat was turned back on, to the delight of everyone who was working in freezing conditions with 75 people sharing just one toilet....

I happened to be in the warehouse when the water was turned back on. a big mess, low spots in the lines, had leaks everywhere and a major flood.

fixing the broken lines took over a week, and cost a fortune. management later admitted shutting off the heat was a major mistake

+1

I've seen similar.

On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 08:08:25 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/15/2015 1:39 PM, Pat wrote:
Exactly! It is unlikely that your pipe burst, but do what this guy
says and you will sure in the spring.
I always see typos later. I left out the word "be" - ...you will be
sure in the spring.


I'd not about it. We know what meant.
LOL. I deserved that.


As to the frozen pipe, yes, very possible.
Really? If he didn't have any problems in previous years, I doubt he
will have any this year just because he forgot to add his foam cover.
Leaving the foam off could be the final straw, but I doubt it. Just
my opinion.
Hope when it thaws, it doesn't turn out to
be a leaker.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

bob haller wrote:

fixing the broken lines took over a week, and cost a fortune. management
later admitted shutting off the heat was a major mistake

We set up a molding plant that used water in their hydraulic system. The
machinery was old and water hydraulics had been more common in the early
20th century. Part of the system we installed was a cooling tower since
quite a bit of heat was generated. They shut down the operation over the
Christmas holidays and we told them "Do NOT shut off the circulating pumps."
Of course they did. Some of the exterior plumbing split and the cooling
tower was a 5 ton ice cube. They saved some electricity though.

Thanks for all the comments. To clarify: I removed the hose from the faucet but did not shut off the water until after several days of zero weather (Chicago area). The garage wall is cinder block; the living room wall, naturally, is drywall. In 25 years, I had no problem but always either drained the line or put on a foam cover.

As suggested, my plan is to open the valve in the basement and listen for the hissing of running water. If it doesn't stop I have a problem. If it does stop I may try heating a section of pipe in the basement with a hair dryer If the heat travels downstream it will likely indicate a leak. Supposed to get up to 40F tomorrow.

On 1/16/2015 8:55 PM, wrote:
Thanks for all the comments. To clarify: I removed the hose from the faucet but did not shut off the water until after several days of zero weather (Chicago area). The garage wall is cinder block; the living room wall, naturally, is drywall. In 25 years, I had no problem but always either drained the line or put on a foam cover.

As suggested, my plan is to open the valve in the basement and listen for the hissing of running water. If it doesn't stop I have a problem. If it does stop I may try heating a section of pipe in the basement with a hair dryer If the heat travels downstream it will likely indicate a leak. Supposed to get up to 40F tomorrow.

Ice has some interesting properties.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...0CD 8QMygYMBg

If ice is below freezing, warming it up will cause it to EXPAND
until it melts and contracts significantly. So, if the pipe didn't
burst on freezing, you'll get a second chance as it warms up.

Pipes freeze when the heat lost to the colder regions exceeds the
heat gained from the warmer regions.
There's a complex web of convection, conduction and radiation,
but at some point, losses exceed gains...temperature drops...ice ensues.

If your pipes didn't freeze before, put the cover back on the outside.
Open the outside spigot slightly if you can, with the inside valve shut off.
All other things equal, they won't freeze now. And if they are frozen,
the ice will melt slowly. And presumably from the warmer regions that
are at the end of the ice plug. The expansion has somewhere to go.

If you go after it with a heat gun, in the middle of the ice plug,
you may do more harm. I would never recommend heating a frozen pipe
quickly unless you really need to have that spigot back on immediately.

The water is turned off. You don't have a pressing need to have it back on.
Don't get in a hurry. Put the outside cover on and wait a week.
It won't be any worse in a week than it is now. And it might be ok.

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 10:49:31 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 01/15/2015 08:37 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 7:52:26 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 01/14/2015 10:38 PM, wrote:
I forgot to put the foam cover on the water spigot in my unheated garage. The pipe to the spigot runs for about ten feet through a wall that is common with the garage and my living room. I turned off that supply line in the basement; now I'm afraid to turn it back on in case the pipe has burst. I can't think of any way to know if the pipe burst without turning on the water and waiting to see if it comes through the wall into the living room. Any better ideas?




A foam cover is not going to do much, so if you forgot to put it on it
should not be a big deal. Hopefully you had enough sense to drain the
pipe...but even if you forgot to do that...it's not likely the portion
behind a heated wall would freeze.

I would think a foam cover would help a bit, but I agree, I don't think
it will help a lot. It would be interesting to see some test results
where they were actually tested to see the temp diff with and without.
They would help more outside, where they would keep the wind off of it.
But I think the bottom line is, what good are they really? If it's
subject to freezing, then it should be turned off and drained or
even better, a freeze proof sillcock. I sure wouldn't rely on one.




Even if the spigot was insulated, if it's out doors it's going to approx
reach ambient temperature. A small amount of heat from the house might
be retained but I don't think much.

The question is, How much heat is the space inside the foam cover losing
through the cover versus how much is it gaining from the warm pipe
inside the house conducting heat to the outside to the warm the spigot
and the water inside the pipe.

These covers are stiff foam for the most part, maybe 3/4" thick, with
soft foam where they contact the wall, so as to fit closely over rough
spots, like where there is a groove of mortar on a brick wall. They
are probably fairly good insultators.

The amount of heat conducted from the inside of the house to the outside
will vary based on whether the pipe is copper or iron or plastic, and is
probably small per unit of time, The water will also conduct heat.
However much it is, it will happen continuously, 24/7, so the heat will
accumulate, except for what is lost to outside the cover.

I think a lot of people whose garden faucets freeze were close to their
not freezing at all, and the foam covers can make the difference.

But it can always be colder than normal, especially for just a few days
in a row, and I wouldn't suggest relying on one either.

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 08:52:01 -0500, Art Todesco
wrote:

On 1/14/2015 11:38 PM, wrote:
I forgot to put the foam cover on the water spigot in my unheated garage. The pipe to the spigot runs for about ten feet through a wall that is common with the garage and my living room. I turned off that supply line in the basement; now I'm afraid to turn it back on in case the pipe has burst. I can't think of any way to know if the pipe burst without turning on the water and waiting to see if it comes through the wall into the living room. Any better ideas?

In my old house near Chicago, I had an attached garage with a bedroom
over it. The faucet was on the front of the garage. The garage was
basically unheated, however, there was a heating register in the garage,
built before local codes prohibited that. But, it was mostly closed.
There was a shutoff/drain in the basement. The pipe ran under the
concrete garage floor, came up just inside the front wall, went up the
wall on the surface of the drywall, turned and went to the sill cock. I
would shut off the valve, open the drain in the basement and open the
sill cock outside. Maybe 1/2 cup of water would drain back; certainly
not an amount for approximately 30' of 1/2" pipe. I'm sure it froze
every winter. Never had a problem unless a hose was left attached.

The one time I had some experience with the foam covers, was at my
father-in-law's house. He'd put it on religiously every year, even
though it was a so called freeze proof faucet. It froze and burst inside
of a bedroom closet, just on the other side where the faucet was
located. So, I too, think foam covers are snake oil.

So what conclusion did you reach about freeze-proof faucets? Was it
only so-called, or was it really a Freeze-Proof Faucet? If so, how
could it freeze and how could the water behind it freeze? Maybe I
don't understand your story.
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On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 08:05:09 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/15/2015 8:52 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
There was a shutoff/drain in the basement. The pipe ran under the
concrete garage floor, came up just inside the front wall, went up the
wall on the surface of the drywall, turned and went to the sill cock. I
would shut off the valve, open the drain in the basement and open the
sill cock outside. Maybe 1/2 cup of water would drain back; certainly
not an amount for approximately 30' of 1/2" pipe. I'm sure it froze
every winter. Never had a problem unless a hose was left attached.


You'd be amazed how many people don't understand
the simple requirement to remove the hose before
freezing weather.

That's another thing my neighbor hasn't done, in the back.

I don't do it, but I don't *understand* it either.

If the hose is on the ground and isn't closed off by a trigger sprayer
or something at the far end, and the tap is 2 feet high, won't at least
the nearest 2 feet of hose drain In fact, won't must of the hose
drain just by lying there?

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 05:47:45 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 10:20:09 PM UTC-5, Mayayana wrote:
| I really don't understand the logic here.
| If your pipe is empty, no problem, it ain't frozen or broke.
| If it is frozen or broke it's because it has water in it.
| And if you leave it that way, it may freeze in a different place and break
| there too.
| If you can, get the water out NOW!

He's already turned off the water. I've never
seen a pipe burst when the water's been turned
off.

Why wouldn't it? Pipe is still full of water, it expands,
it busts. Just like putting a closed bottle of water
in a freezer.

Agreed. Why woudl turning off the water make any difference, if there
is still water in the pipe. The purpose of turning off the water is so
that one can drain the pipe, so it won't freeze.

But turning off the water inside and opening the faucet outside is very
often not sufficient to drain the pipe, in those cases where the pipe
runs uphill before it gets to the outside faucet. In those cases the
water has to be drained from the pipe by opening a bleeder valve, which
one hopes is present on the inside valve, to drain the part of the pipe
from the inside valve to outside valve.

It's a 3-step process in many many cases.


Covering the faucet itself would have been
unlikely to do anything, so it doesn't matter that
he forgot to do that.

I have a similar situation. I've got a water pipe
going through my unheated shop -- which right now
is well below freezing -- to an outdoor spigot. I shut
off the valve in the heated part of the cellar in
the fall. I'm not worried that the pipe may burst.

You should be. What matters is if the pipe is full of
water. When water freezes, it expands, where is it going
to go? I've seen houses winterized that were unoccupied,
where the low point drain was opened, etc., yet pipes
burst in low spots, because they still had water in them
that couldn't run out.


If that were a worry then we'd all have to have
a gizmo to suck water from outdoor taps every fall.
I've never heard of anyone having or using such
a gizmo.


There are millions of sillcocks installed with an inside
shutoff valve that has a small drain cap. To winterize,
you shut it off, then open the sillcock and open the little
drain cap on the valve, allowing the water to run out.

Exactly. If you can't see this in your own basement, you can go to home
depot and look at one that is for sale.

Before they had these, I presume they used a T-connector and another
full-size valve to do the draining. Not called bleeding until the valve
was smaller and the flow rate was lower.


BTW, after 20 years, often using a pliers to make it tight or loosen it,
I stripped the grooves on the ouside of one drain cap, but found out
they sell replacements for less than $2. It's a set of 2 in the case of
HDepot, to fit all brands I guess.

Called Brass/Drain Cap Replacement Part, "made" by Homewerks Worldwide
and seeming sold under the part number VACCAPW2B.

It's in a box among the metal valves

On Saturday, January 17, 2015 at 4:10:10 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 08:05:09 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/15/2015 8:52 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
There was a shutoff/drain in the basement. The pipe ran under the
concrete garage floor, came up just inside the front wall, went up the
wall on the surface of the drywall, turned and went to the sill cock. I
would shut off the valve, open the drain in the basement and open the
sill cock outside. Maybe 1/2 cup of water would drain back; certainly
not an amount for approximately 30' of 1/2" pipe. I'm sure it froze
every winter. Never had a problem unless a hose was left attached.


You'd be amazed how many people don't understand
the simple requirement to remove the hose before
freezing weather.

That's another thing my neighbor hasn't done, in the back.

I don't do it, but I don't *understand* it either.

If the hose is on the ground and isn't closed off by a trigger sprayer
or something at the far end, and the tap is 2 feet high, won't at least
the nearest 2 feet of hose drain In fact, won't must of the hose
drain just by lying there?

..

The freeze and bust problems are caused when the hose has a nozzle
on the end of it, which is common, and the water can't run out at all.
If the end is open, the faucet is higher, then enough water will run
out to clear the faucet so that it can't freeze and bust.

On Saturday, January 17, 2015 at 4:04:19 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 08:52:01 -0500, Art Todesco
wrote:

On 1/14/2015 11:38 PM, wrote:
I forgot to put the foam cover on the water spigot in my unheated garage. The pipe to the spigot runs for about ten feet through a wall that is common with the garage and my living room. I turned off that supply line in the basement; now I'm afraid to turn it back on in case the pipe has burst. I can't think of any way to know if the pipe burst without turning on the water and waiting to see if it comes through the wall into the living room. Any better ideas?

In my old house near Chicago, I had an attached garage with a bedroom
over it. The faucet was on the front of the garage. The garage was
basically unheated, however, there was a heating register in the garage,
built before local codes prohibited that. But, it was mostly closed.
There was a shutoff/drain in the basement. The pipe ran under the
concrete garage floor, came up just inside the front wall, went up the
wall on the surface of the drywall, turned and went to the sill cock. I
would shut off the valve, open the drain in the basement and open the
sill cock outside. Maybe 1/2 cup of water would drain back; certainly
not an amount for approximately 30' of 1/2" pipe. I'm sure it froze
every winter. Never had a problem unless a hose was left attached.

The one time I had some experience with the foam covers, was at my
father-in-law's house. He'd put it on religiously every year, even
though it was a so called freeze proof faucet. It froze and burst inside
of a bedroom closet, just on the other side where the faucet was
located. So, I too, think foam covers are snake oil.

So what conclusion did you reach about freeze-proof faucets? Was it
only so-called, or was it really a Freeze-Proof Faucet? If so, how
could it freeze and how could the water behind it freeze? Maybe I
don't understand your story.
---
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Properly installed and used, they work. I've had dozens of them, no problems.
You can screw them up several ways:

Leave a hose on so it can't drain
Install it pitched down into the house instead of flat or slightly out
Leave an opening around it, so wind gets to the water part
Not long enough to get to where it's warm

| Why wouldn't it? Pipe is still full of water, it expands,
| it busts. Just like putting a closed bottle of water
| in a freezer.
|
| Agreed. Why woudl turning off the water make any difference, if there
| is still water in the pipe. The purpose of turning off the water is so
| that one can drain the pipe, so it won't freeze.
|

You drain all of your pipes to the outside every year?
I never have and I've never had a frozen/burst pipe. I
shut off the inside valve, open the outside valve to make
sure there's no pressure, then close the outside valve.
Right now it's 5F here and a 6' length of pipe is going
through an unheated area to an outside faucet. I'm not
worried. It hasn't burst yet.

| But turning off the water inside and opening the faucet outside is very
| often not sufficient to drain the pipe, in those cases where the pipe
| runs uphill before it gets to the outside faucet.

Others have said that, but how common is it to
have pipes "rollercoastering" in the average house?
The OP is concerned with a water pipe running
inside the garage wall. What are you suggesting?
That he should rip open the length of the garage
wall because it's *possible* that the plumbing was
done by Rube Goldberg?
It's a good point that such bad plumbing can cause
problems, but it's not a likely situation. If you
really think it is then there is really only one option
for the OP: Rip open the entire wall now to check
the pipe and add special drain valves. (Remember
he's shut off the inside valve. If the pipe has burst
and the temperature goes above freezing there's
a good chance that not enough water will leak out
to show up as a wall stain or a puddle. So the only
way to rule out Rube Goldberg is to rip out the wall.)

On Saturday, January 17, 2015 at 9:29:48 AM UTC-5, Mayayana wrote:
| Why wouldn't it? Pipe is still full of water, it expands,
| it busts. Just like putting a closed bottle of water
| in a freezer.
|
| Agreed. Why woudl turning off the water make any difference, if there
| is still water in the pipe. The purpose of turning off the water is so
| that one can drain the pipe, so it won't freeze.
|

You drain all of your pipes to the outside every year?

That's what I've done when I've had sillcocks that were not the freeze
proof kind. That's why the inside shutoff valves typically have a drain
cap.



I never have and I've never had a frozen/burst pipe. I
shut off the inside valve, open the outside valve to make
sure there's no pressure, then close the outside valve.
Right now it's 5F here and a 6' length of pipe is going
through an unheated area to an outside faucet. I'm not
worried. It hasn't burst yet.

| But turning off the water inside and opening the faucet outside is very
| often not sufficient to drain the pipe, in those cases where the pipe
| runs uphill before it gets to the outside faucet.

Others have said that, but how common is it to
have pipes "rollercoastering" in the average house?

It only has to happen once, how lucky do you feel? If it's
a short length of pipe to a sillcock, you probably could get lucky.
If it's a whole house that you're winterizing, I've seen where
only trying to drain it at the lowest point resulted in some sections
of pipe still having water and busting.



The OP is concerned with a water pipe running
inside the garage wall. What are you suggesting?
That he should rip open the length of the garage
wall because it's *possible* that the plumbing was
done by Rube Goldberg?

I think the discussion has moved way beyond the limited scenario
posed by the OP. What should have been installed there would have
been a freeze proof sillcock, thereby eliminating all the drama
and providing water year round.



It's a good point that such bad plumbing can cause
problems, but it's not a likely situation. If you
really think it is then there is really only one option
for the OP: Rip open the entire wall now to check
the pipe and add special drain valves. (Remember
he's shut off the inside valve. If the pipe has burst
and the temperature goes above freezing there's
a good chance that not enough water will leak out
to show up as a wall stain or a puddle. So the only
way to rule out Rube Goldberg is to rip out the wall.)

I don't see any need to rip open anything. When he turns the water
back on, monitors it, if there is a problem, then he can fix it.

Woops. That sounds far more ominous than your
original description, which sounded like you had
turned off the supply in the fall. It sounds like
there's a good chance of a burst. Still, if it were
me I'd wait until Spring. If it's burst the damage
is done. Unless you want to open up the inside
wall to check it, there's not much to be done.

You'd be amazed how many people don't understand
the simple requirement to remove the hose before
freezing weather.

That's another thing my neighbor hasn't done, in the back.

I don't do it, but I don't *understand* it either.

With freeze proof garden hose faucet, the actual
valve is several inches away from the turn handle.

With the hose on, the tube stays full of water,
freezes, splits.

with the hose off, the tube drains empty. It may
get cold, but the tube won't have the expanding
water as it freezes.

See this reasonable article:
http://www.startribune.com/local/you...243933031.html


-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..