Hello ng,

I've got a little project to add some grab bars. One is next to a
toilet, and they want it diagonal. Another is next to the shower stall
and vertical. The third is inside the shower and diagonal.

The house is in Oakland, CA. It has real 2 x 4's, lathe and plaster,
and tile in the shower.

Q1) Should I expect 16" on center framing?

When at all possible, I want to be fastening onto studs.

Q2) If not possible, then are toggle bolts the best way to go?

At home depot, they had "Glacier Bay" products that looked really
chintzy, and half of what was out there had been returned and re-taped.

Elsewhere, I've found "Delta" products that looked a little better.

I can order "Moen" products online, and they're a brand that hasn't made
me regret ever using them

Q3) What brand would you go with?

Finally, I want to get every bit of fastening power I can out of these,
and toggle bolts get slumpy if they have any play in them and poor
performers for handling the vertical load.

Q4) What in the world of adhesives might is use to promote a better
bond between the flange and the ceramic walls that might have 1/2" holes
drilled in it? Isn't there some chance that water could find its way in
if I don't put something goopy where I half 1/2" tunnels for the toggle
bolts? Off the top of my head, I was thinking of ordinary bathroom
caulk, epoxy, or silicon.

Thanks for your comment,
--
Cal

"Cal Dershowitz" wrote in message
...
Hello ng,

I've got a little project to add some grab bars. One is next to a toilet,
and they want it diagonal. Another is next to the shower stall and
vertical. The third is inside the shower and diagonal.

The house is in Oakland, CA. It has real 2 x 4's, lathe and plaster, and
tile in the shower.

Q1) Should I expect 16" on center framing?

When at all possible, I want to be fastening onto studs.

Q2) If not possible, then are toggle bolts the best way to go?

At home depot, they had "Glacier Bay" products that looked really chintzy,
and half of what was out there had been returned and re-taped.

Elsewhere, I've found "Delta" products that looked a little better.

I can order "Moen" products online, and they're a brand that hasn't made
me regret ever using them

Q3) What brand would you go with?

Finally, I want to get every bit of fastening power I can out of these,
and toggle bolts get slumpy if they have any play in them and poor
performers for handling the vertical load.

Q4) What in the world of adhesives might is use to promote a better bond
between the flange and the ceramic walls that might have 1/2" holes
drilled in it? Isn't there some chance that water could find its way in
if I don't put something goopy where I half 1/2" tunnels for the toggle
bolts? Off the top of my head, I was thinking of ordinary bathroom caulk,
epoxy, or silicon.

Thanks for your comment,

See if you can get a copy if the gov CD on the ADA requirements/

Secind check some if the disability sutes (usenet is decreasing so blogs
might be a better bet

"NotMe" wrote in message
"Cal Dershowitz" wrote in message
...
Hello ng,

I've got a little project to add some grab bars. One is next to a
toilet, and they want it diagonal. Another is next to the shower
stall
and vertical. The third is inside the shower and diagonal.

The house is in Oakland, CA. It has real 2 x 4's, lathe and plaster,
and tile in the shower.

Q1) Should I expect 16" on center framing?

When at all possible, I want to be fastening onto studs.

Q2) If not possible, then are toggle bolts the best way to go?


Unless you want to open things up and put in some deadwood, toggles or
molly bolts are about it.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 12/19/2014 4:20 PM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:
Hello ng,

I've got a little project to add some grab bars. One is next to a toilet,
and they want it diagonal. Another is next to the shower stall and
vertical. The third is inside the shower and diagonal.

The house is in Oakland, CA. It has real 2 x 4's, lathe and plaster, and
tile in the shower.

Q1) Should I expect 16" on center framing?

When at all possible, I want to be fastening onto studs.

Q2) If not possible, then are toggle bolts the best way to go?

At home depot, they had "Glacier Bay" products that looked really chintzy,
and half of what was out there had been returned and re-taped.

Elsewhere, I've found "Delta" products that looked a little better.

I can order "Moen" products online, and they're a brand that hasn't made me
regret ever using them

Q3) What brand would you go with?

Finally, I want to get every bit of fastening power I can out of these, and
toggle bolts get slumpy if they have any play in them and poor performers
for handling the vertical load.

Q4) What in the world of adhesives might is use to promote a better bond
between the flange and the ceramic walls that might have 1/2" holes drilled
in it? Isn't there some chance that water could find its way in if I don't
put something goopy where I half 1/2" tunnels for the toggle bolts? Off
the top of my head, I was thinking of ordinary bathroom caulk, epoxy, or
silicon.

Thanks for your comment,

You want to be either directly into studs or into something strong which is
well attached to the studs. In my mind regular anchors or molly bolts don't
begin to meet the strength requirements - remember that one of these bars
might suddenly be expected to support hundreds of pounds and failure is not
an option. You are the one who will be called into court to explain the
failure.

Moen makes the best bars I've found. Their stainless are my preferred
option and Amazon sells them pretty cheaply. I have always depended on
opening the wall (from the front or the rear) in question and installing
either 3/4" or 7/8" plywood to 2X2 cleats screwed and glued to the studs.
Making the plywood at least 2 feet wide spanning from 18" to 42" from the
floor removes most anxiety over aiming the screws. If this is impossible
(it ain't easy!) then Moen makes some anchors which they claim will always
do the job when applied correctly. Drilling heavy porcelain tile is always
a bitch and drilling the big hole for one of the Moen anchors will call for
a good diamond core bit. For smaller screw holes Amazon sells multi-packs
of throw-away 15/64" Chinese diamond bits which will last for two or three
holes if you keep them well wetted while drilling.

Moen anchors:
http://www.moen.com/shared/docs/prod.../sma1000sp.pdf

No matter what you do, make sure that sufficient silicone caulking is used
to keep water out of the joint -- it will get in where you least expect it
and will never do the wall any good.

Can you get to the other side of the installing wall and make a small exploratory hole? If not, is there a closet or someplace you can see what the mounting centers are for the studs. Maybe a climb into the attic will reveal somthing, you can look strsight down on the header above an inside wall and see where the nails go straight down into the top of the studs if the walls were prenailed before erecting them. Maybe a deep-penetration setting on a regular electronic wall stud finder would be sensitive enough to find the studs behind the plaster and lath.

You should probably check out Taymor as well.

Bathware | Taymor Canada

Taymor is a Japanese company that makes everything in both Residential and Commercial hardware; from kitchen and bath faucets to recessed soap dishes to medicine cabinets and door closers and electronic dead bolts. They're probably the largest residential and commercial hardware manufacturer in the world. I like their products and Allmar, my local hardware wholesaler carries Taymor (as will at least one of the hardware wholesalers in every city).

Instead of using molybolts or hollow wall anchors, I would check out the safety grab bars offered by Moen and Taymor and use whichever one fits. Between the two companies, you should have a good selection of different grab bar lengths. I know a lot (if not all) of the hardware Taymor makes for baths and showers is stainless, and I wouldn't put in anything that's not seriously waterproof in a shower or even a bath.

On 12/19/2014 4:20 PM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:


The house is in Oakland, CA. It has real 2 x 4's, lathe and plaster,
and tile in the shower.

Q1) Should I expect 16" on center framing?

Crap shoot on a house like that. Have you tried a stud finder? Not
sure how they work with lath. I'd try some holes in a closet wall.


When at all possible, I want to be fastening onto studs.

Q2) If not possible, then are toggle bolts the best way to go?

There are anchors made for them. Never used them but probably better
than regular toggles.



Q3) What brand would you go with?

The bars I put in the upstairs bath came from the plumbing supply but I
don't recall the brand. Downstairs i used Moen. I'd say they are equal
in stability, quality, and nearly identical flanges. The Moen has a
slightly smoother grab if that matters.




Q4) What in the world of adhesives might is use to promote a better
bond between the flange and the ceramic walls that might have 1/2" holes
drilled in it? Isn't there some chance that water could find its way in
if I don't put something goopy where I half 1/2" tunnels for the toggle
bolts? Off the top of my head, I was thinking of ordinary bathroom
caulk, epoxy, or silicon.

I don't think water will be much of a problem. Run a bead of silicone
on the inside edge of the flange and it will seal with no visible caulk.

You will be able to Google placement easily if you have questions.
Every shower should have them even if you are not old.

On 12/19/2014 4:20 PM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:
Hello ng,

I've got a little project to add some grab bars. One is next to a
toilet, and they want it diagonal. Another is next to the shower stall
and vertical. The third is inside the shower and diagonal.

The house is in Oakland, CA. It has real 2 x 4's, lathe and plaster,
and tile in the shower.

Q1) Should I expect 16" on center framing?

When at all possible, I want to be fastening onto studs.

Wood or metal lathe? I have metal and it makes a stud finder useless.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On 12/19/2014 7:59 PM, BenignBodger wrote:
On 12/19/2014 4:20 PM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:
Hello ng,

I've got a little project to add some grab bars. One is next to a
toilet,
and they want it diagonal. Another is next to the shower stall and
vertical. The third is inside the shower and diagonal.

The house is in Oakland, CA. It has real 2 x 4's, lathe and plaster, and
tile in the shower.

Q1) Should I expect 16" on center framing?

When at all possible, I want to be fastening onto studs.

Q2) If not possible, then are toggle bolts the best way to go?

At home depot, they had "Glacier Bay" products that looked really
chintzy,
and half of what was out there had been returned and re-taped.

Elsewhere, I've found "Delta" products that looked a little better.

I can order "Moen" products online, and they're a brand that hasn't
made me
regret ever using them

Q3) What brand would you go with?

Finally, I want to get every bit of fastening power I can out of
these, and
toggle bolts get slumpy if they have any play in them and poor performers
for handling the vertical load.

Q4) What in the world of adhesives might is use to promote a better bond
between the flange and the ceramic walls that might have 1/2" holes
drilled
in it? Isn't there some chance that water could find its way in if I
don't
put something goopy where I half 1/2" tunnels for the toggle bolts? Off
the top of my head, I was thinking of ordinary bathroom caulk, epoxy, or
silicon.

Thanks for your comment,

You want to be either directly into studs or into something strong which
is well attached to the studs. In my mind regular anchors or molly bolts
don't begin to meet the strength requirements - remember that one of
these bars might suddenly be expected to support hundreds of pounds and
failure is not an option. You are the one who will be called into court
to explain the failure.

Moen makes the best bars I've found. Their stainless are my preferred
option and Amazon sells them pretty cheaply. I have always depended on
opening the wall (from the front or the rear) in question and installing
either 3/4" or 7/8" plywood to 2X2 cleats screwed and glued to the
studs. Making the plywood at least 2 feet wide spanning from 18" to 42"
from the floor removes most anxiety over aiming the screws. If this is
impossible (it ain't easy!) then Moen makes some anchors which they
claim will always do the job when applied correctly. Drilling heavy
porcelain tile is always a bitch and drilling the big hole for one of
the Moen anchors will call for a good diamond core bit. For smaller
screw holes Amazon sells multi-packs of throw-away 15/64" Chinese
diamond bits which will last for two or three holes if you keep them
well wetted while drilling.

Moen anchors:
http://www.moen.com/shared/docs/prod.../sma1000sp.pdf

No matter what you do, make sure that sufficient silicone caulking is
used to keep water out of the joint -- it will get in where you least
expect it and will never do the wall any good.

+1

Except I don't know about Moen products, they may be fine, I simply
haven't tried them.

My wife was in accident and is now crippled. I purchased grab bars at
the local medical supply house. Chromed steel bars need to be screwed
into solid wood. That may mean opening up the wall and installing
plywood (3/4" minimum) using cleats (or letting plywood into) the
existing studs. It is absolutely mandatory that the bars support at
least 300 lbs, more is better for saftey. I chose a total remodel for
other reasons so this wasn't a problem for me. If you can get to it from
an adjoining room so much the better. If you can't then consider it a
good time to remodel. Either way *do not* skimp on the support as there
are many hard surfaces in a bathroom that can cause fatal injuries in a
fall.

I tried the lever and suction models designed for the purpose and found
that they are useless so don't waste your money. In fact they are worse
than useless in that they appear to work when first applied but over a
day or so loosen up and fail.

John

Cal Dershowitz wrote in news:cfjj50Fmiv2U1
@mid.individual.net:

I've got a little project to add some grab bars. One is next to a
toilet, and they want it diagonal. Another is next to the shower stall
and vertical. The third is inside the shower and diagonal.


You certainly came to the right place to ask that question. There are a
lot of very old people hanging around here and most of them are crippled in
some way.

On 12/19/2014 03:20 PM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:
Hello ng,

I've got a little project to add some grab bars. One is next to a
toilet, and they want it diagonal. Another is next to the shower stall
and vertical. The third is inside the shower and diagonal.

The house is in Oakland, CA. It has real 2 x 4's, lathe and plaster,
and tile in the shower.

Q1) Should I expect 16" on center framing?

When at all possible, I want to be fastening onto studs.

Q2) If not possible, then are toggle bolts the best way to go?

A


snip


I just added some to the basement stairway of my 19th century home.


First off, since someone might be putting a lot of weight on the grab
bars, it would be better to anchor them right into the studs. However
since the wall is lathe and plaster , toggle bolts would certainly be
better than if trying to install on thin Sheetrock.


I assumed my house would be non-standard so used a stud finder...but due
to artifacts in the lathe and plaster, it was not correct.

I ended up finding the studs the old fashioned way by simply driving in
an extremely fine nail until I hit studs. The eight tiny holes I made
were easily filled by a tiny dab of Spackle applied with my finger tip.

On 12/20/2014 12:02 AM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 12/19/2014 4:20 PM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:
Hello ng,
The house is in Oakland, CA. It has real 2 x 4's, lathe and plaster,
and tile in the shower.


Wood or metal lathe? I have metal and it makes a stud finder useless.


Try not to get your hair caught in the lathe.
Especially when the lathe is running.
http://colinhansen.files.wordpress.c...he-christs.jpg
And it should be on GFCI when used in the shower.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/20/2014 1:17 AM, John wrote:
good time to remodel. Either way *do not* skimp on the support as there
are many hard surfaces in a bathroom that can cause fatal injuries in a
fall.

I tried the lever and suction models designed for the purpose and found
that they are useless so don't waste your money. In fact they are worse
than useless in that they appear to work when first applied but over a
day or so loosen up and fail.

John

That's real world wisdom. Do the job right,
and do good anchor. Thank you.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/20/2014 3:32 AM, Zak W wrote:

You certainly came to the right place to ask that question. There are a
lot of very old people hanging around here and most of them are crippled in
some way.


You are so right, young fellow.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/20/2014 9:14 AM, philo wrote:
First off, since someone might be putting a lot of weight on the grab
bars, it would be better to anchor them right into the studs. However
since the wall is lathe and plaster , toggle bolts would certainly be
better than if trying to install on thin Sheetrock.


I assumed my house would be non-standard so used a stud finder...but due
to artifacts in the lathe and plaster, it was not correct.

I ended up finding the studs the old fashioned way by simply driving in
an extremely fine nail until I hit studs. The eight tiny holes I made
were easily filled by a tiny dab of Spackle applied with my finger tip.


How do you use your lathe
http://colinhansen.files.wordpress.c...he-christs.jpg
if you put plaster on it?

BTW, there is a home wall construction
technique called "lath and plaster."


-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/20/2014 1:17 AM, John wrote:


I tried the lever and suction models designed for the purpose and found
that they are useless so don't waste your money. In fact they are worse
than useless in that they appear to work when first applied but over a
day or so loosen up and fail.

John

I had one temporarily at the shower before I remodeled. Don't think of
it as a grab bar, but something to steady yourself. They are not
designed to hold serious weight.

It did let go a couple of times, but on a smooth surface it would stay
for a few weeks. Real bars are the right solution though.

On 12/19/2014 9:24 PM, wrote:
Can you get to the other side of the installing wall and make a small exploratory hole? If not, is there a closet or someplace you can see what the mounting centers are for the studs. Maybe a climb into the attic will reveal somthing, you can look strsight down on the header above an inside wall and see where the nails go straight down into the top of the studs if the walls were prenailed before erecting them. Maybe a deep-penetration setting on a regular electronic wall stud finder would be sensitive enough to find the studs behind the plaster and lath.


To add to what I posted yesterday:

Actual ADA approved grab bars have a screw pattern wider than a standard
stud, so at best you may get 2 of 3 screws into the stud on one end and
perhaps only one on the other end. Open the wall, put in solid wood and
do it right.

I also don't advise using bars that aren't knurled. Knurling is a cross
hatch pattern machined into the metal. Wet hands can easily slip off of
smooth surfaces. A smooth finish may look better but its an accident
waiting to happen.

John

On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 13:38:39 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 12/20/2014 1:17 AM, John wrote:


I tried the lever and suction models designed for the purpose and found
that they are useless so don't waste your money. In fact they are worse
than useless in that they appear to work when first applied but over a
day or so loosen up and fail.

John

I had one temporarily at the shower before I remodeled. Don't think of
it as a grab bar, but something to steady yourself. They are not

I can imagine that. I use my towel bar even thught it's barely
attached to the wall, and I've pulled out two simlarly mounted ones. I
wouldn't say I steady myself with it so much as it's a leading indicator
of whether I'm tipping over, even before my toes or my semicircular
canals know it. So I can asjust how my feet are keeping me standing
up.

I put in a grabbar for my mother once, and I drilled the holes smaller
than normal, to be SURE the screws didn't come out.

It was hard to get them in and nearly impossible to get them out, It
was a contest to see if the screw slots and heads got ruined before the
screws were out. And it was a rented apartment, so I didn't want to
leave this for them. My mother had been there for about 10 years, and
they told me not to worry about filling holes or spackling, but a screw
or two sticking out was going too far.

It was not on tile, and I had no trouble finding studs. They had
sheet rock but the electronic stud finders are fantastic, and a good one
(like the first one that came out, before maybe cheaper ones) with a
sensitivity adjustment knob would. I think. work with lath.


designed to hold serious weight.

It did let go a couple of times, but on a smooth surface it would stay
for a few weeks. Real bars are the right solution though.

On 12/20/2014 6:54 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 12/20/2014 9:14 AM, philo wrote:
First off, since someone might be putting a lot of weight on the grab
bars, it would be better to anchor them right into the studs. However
since the wall is lathe and plaster , toggle bolts would certainly be
better than if trying to install on thin Sheetrock.


I assumed my house would be non-standard so used a stud finder...but due
to artifacts in the lathe and plaster, it was not correct.

I ended up finding the studs the old fashioned way by simply driving in
an extremely fine nail until I hit studs. The eight tiny holes I made
were easily filled by a tiny dab of Spackle applied with my finger tip.


How do you use your lathe
http://colinhansen.files.wordpress.c...he-christs.jpg
if you put plaster on it?

BTW, there is a home wall construction
technique called "lath and plaster."


-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

Dude, you can read the crap that JS, jr. quoth whilst looking into a hat
at face value, and you're harping on my mistaken terminal "e"? I could
rattle off a hundred glaring mistakes from his forgery, but the one I
find most compelling is that no one would write "and it came to pass" in
metal a thousand times. Try it once. Use the Gaelic characters that JS
jr. produced as evidence of his "reformed egyptian."
--
Cal

"Mormonism: ten minutes on the internet can save you ten percent."

On 12/20/2014 03:41 PM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:


Dude, you can read the crap that JS, jr. quoth whilst looking into a hat
at face value, and you're harping on my mistaken terminal "e"? I could
rattle off a hundred glaring mistakes from his forgery, but the one I
find most compelling is that no one would write "and it came to pass" in
metal a thousand times. Try it once. Use the Gaelic characters that JS
jr. produced as evidence of his "reformed egyptian."
--
Cal

"Mormonism: ten minutes on the internet can save you ten percent."



As you see "SN" is the newsgroup troll.

Pay no attention to him.

On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 13:41:37 -0800, Cal Dershowitz
wrote:

On 12/20/2014 6:54 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 12/20/2014 9:14 AM, philo wrote:
First off, since someone might be putting a lot of weight on the grab
bars, it would be better to anchor them right into the studs. However
since the wall is lathe and plaster , toggle bolts would certainly be
better than if trying to install on thin Sheetrock.


I assumed my house would be non-standard so used a stud finder...but due
to artifacts in the lathe and plaster, it was not correct.

I ended up finding the studs the old fashioned way by simply driving in
an extremely fine nail until I hit studs. The eight tiny holes I made
were easily filled by a tiny dab of Spackle applied with my finger tip.


How do you use your lathe
http://colinhansen.files.wordpress.c...he-christs.jpg
if you put plaster on it?

BTW, there is a home wall construction
technique called "lath and plaster."


-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

Dude, you can read the crap that JS, jr. quoth whilst looking into a hat
at face value, and you're harping on my mistaken terminal "e"? I could

Chris did not quote you. He was responding to Philo and he was just
being funny.

Maybe your news server didn't deliver the post which Chris replied to
(although he quoted it), or maybe you're upset about the ailments which
are causing someone in your family to need the grab bar. On those
possibilities, I will not tell you to "Get a grip."


rattle off a hundred glaring mistakes from his forgery, but the one I
find most compelling is that no one would write "and it came to pass" in
metal a thousand times. Try it once. Use the Gaelic characters that JS
jr. produced as evidence of his "reformed egyptian."

John posted for all of us...



On 12/19/2014 9:24 PM, wrote:
Can you get to the other side of the installing wall and make a small exploratory hole? If not, is there a closet or someplace you can see what the mounting centers are for the studs. Maybe a climb into the attic will reveal somthing, you can look strsight down on the header above an inside wall and see where the nails go straight down into the top of the studs if the walls were prenailed before erecting them. Maybe a deep-penetration setting
on a regular electronic wall stud finder would be sensitive enough to find the studs behind the plaster and lath.


To add to what I posted yesterday:

Actual ADA approved grab bars have a screw pattern wider than a standard
stud, so at best you may get 2 of 3 screws into the stud on one end and
perhaps only one on the other end. Open the wall, put in solid wood and
do it right.

I also don't advise using bars that aren't knurled. Knurling is a cross
hatch pattern machined into the metal. Wet hands can easily slip off of
smooth surfaces. A smooth finish may look better but its an accident
waiting to happen.

John

+50 as a user of them.

--
Tekkie

John posted for all of us...


I also don't advise using bars that aren't knurled.

Double negatives are hard to follow. Don't use no
double negatives, nohow. Avoid double negatives like
the plague, and keep far away from double negatives.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ...
John posted for all of us...


I also don't advise using bars that aren't knurled.

Double negatives are hard to follow. Don't use no
double negatives, nohow. Avoid double negatives like
the plague, and keep far away from double negatives.

What about a triple negative with 2 positives?

On Sat, 10 Jan 2015 18:10:24 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

John posted for all of us...


I also don't advise using bars that aren't knurled.

Double negatives are hard to follow. Don't use no
double negatives, nohow. Avoid double negatives like
the plague, and keep far away from double negatives.
The poster's double use of the negative was not technically a double
negative, and was perfectly correct. He does not recommend - a bar
that is not knurled. Each negative is part of a totally different
segment of the sentance. There is one negative in the verb part and
one in the noun/pronoun part.

posted for all of us...



On Sat, 10 Jan 2015 18:10:24 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

John posted for all of us...


I also don't advise using bars that aren't knurled.

Double negatives are hard to follow. Don't use no
double negatives, nohow. Avoid double negatives like
the plague, and keep far away from double negatives.
The poster's double use of the negative was not technically a double
negative, and was perfectly correct. He does not recommend - a bar
that is not knurled. Each negative is part of a totally different
segment of the sentance. There is one negative in the verb part and
one in the noun/pronoun part.

The only negative is Stumped, single, double through infinity...

--
Tekkie