We had a couple of major power outages this year and ran out of water, so
it has renewed my interest in finding a backup when the power goes out.
We live in Washington state and everything here is powered by
electricity.

We have a woodstove for backup heat, and battery powered LED lights and
radio that can last for days. Power failures almost always occur during
cold winter storms, so we can just stick our perishible foods outside if
the power goes out for more than a few hours. As long as we have water,
we can cook on the woodstove or heat water in a pan for washing up.

We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the power
goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.

I've thought about adding a second pressure tank, but there's no way I
can think of to ensure one is always fully pressurized (short of filling
it up and shutting the valve off. I am trying to avoid stagnant water).
Odds are both tanks would be just about empty when the power goes out.

The cheap solution is just to store containers of water somewhere. But,
that takes space and isn't very convenient. I don't know that my daughter
would be able or willing to lift a 5 gallon container of water to refill
a toilet tank if I'm not around.

A generator is an obvious option, but power outages are rather rare. I
don't want one more engine to have to maintain, worry about gas getting
stale and gumming up, etc. Propane generators might overcome the long
term storage issue, but they still take up space and require maintenance.
Not to mention, I don't really want to go out in cold wind storms to
start up a generator. Call me lazy.

An inverter/charger system with batteries would be a good solution.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen an affordable system that can power my 1/2
HP 240V well pump. The ones I have seen cost more than a generator, or I
would have to cobble together multiple devices (inverters, chargers, auto
transformers, etc.) to make everything work.

One final option I've thought of would be to store a water tank in our
heated attic space. I figured I could plumb the inlet at the top and the
outlet at the bottom so it is flushed regularly. With only a 9' rise it
would offer very little pressure, but I would think it would still refill
the toilets. We wouldn't be taking showers or washing laundry during a
power outage anyway. The major downside to this option is getting the
tank into the attic space and modifying all the plumbing. Doable, just
not my ideal option.

I'm curious what backup systems other water well users have come up with.

I am only looking for a backup for a day, not outages lasting a week or
more.

Thanks,

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

On 11/28/2014 12:00 PM, HerHusband wrote:
We had a couple of major power outages this year and ran out of water, so
it has renewed my interest in finding a backup when the power goes out.
We live in Washington state and everything here is powered by
electricity.

We have a woodstove for backup heat, and battery powered LED lights and
radio that can last for days. Power failures almost always occur during
cold winter storms, so we can just stick our perishible foods outside if
the power goes out for more than a few hours. As long as we have water,
we can cook on the woodstove or heat water in a pan for washing up.

We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the power
goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.



snip


Why would the tank not be full at all times?

I'd figure out a way to always keep it full .

On 11/28/2014 12:25 PM, philo wrote:
On 11/28/2014 12:00 PM, HerHusband wrote:
....

We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the power
goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.



snip


Why would the tank not be full at all times?
....

Because pump will only kick on again when pressure drops to low-pressure
setpoint...which point has, if the pressure is set corretly, emptied
about 75% of the full capacity.

--

On 11/28/2014 12:34 PM, dpb wrote:
On 11/28/2014 12:25 PM, philo wrote:
On 11/28/2014 12:00 PM, HerHusband wrote:
...

We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the
power
goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.



snip


Why would the tank not be full at all times?
...

Because pump will only kick on again when pressure drops to low-pressure
setpoint...which point has, if the pressure is set corretly, emptied
about 75% of the full capacity.



Ok then. If the OP goes with the reserve tank in the attic...better take
into account the weight of water.

80 gallons would be something like 650#

"philo " wrote in message

On 11/28/2014 12:34 PM, dpb wrote:
On 11/28/2014 12:25 PM, philo wrote:
On 11/28/2014 12:00 PM, HerHusband wrote:
...

We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power
goes out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush
a
lot of toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full
when the power
goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost
power.



snip


Why would the tank not be full at all times?
...

Because pump will only kick on again when pressure drops to
low-pressure
setpoint...which point has, if the pressure is set corretly, emptied
about 75% of the full capacity.



Ok then. If the OP goes with the reserve tank in the attic...better take
into account the weight of water.

80 gallons would be something like 650#

And if his attic was made with trusses he probably wouldn't want that
weight on them. I wouldn't.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

If the OP goes with the reserve tank in the attic...
better take into account the weight of water.
80 gallons would be something like 650#

if his attic was made with trusses he probably wouldn't
want that weight on them. I wouldn't.

Our "attic" is just a small 6'x24' room above our guest bath and laundry.
It's below the insulation so it doesn't freeze in winter or cook in the
summer. It has it's own 2x6 floor joists @ 16" OC that span about six feet.
Weight wouldn't be much of issue. But, it's only about 4 feet high and the
access hole is fairly small. I would probably have to install several
smaller tanks instead of one larger one.

In any case, that's kind of a last resort option as it would involve
running new pipes up to the attic. By the time I bought the tanks,
modified the plumbing, and installed and plumbed drip pans in case a tank
leaks, it's more trouble than it's worth.

Just one of those crazy ideas I was tossing around.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

Why would the tank not be full at all times?

The pump fills up the tank then shuts off when it reaches full pressure.

At that point, the pressurized tank supplies water to the house.

When the tank pressure drops to the minimum cutoff, the pump turns on and
refills the tank.

If the power goes out when the tank is full, we have 80 gallons of water.
If the power goes out when the tank is about the reach the minimum cutoff,
we may only have 5-10 gallons.

I'd figure out a way to always keep it full.

That's kind of like ensuring the gas tank in your car is always full.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

On Friday, November 28, 2014 10:25:46 AM UTC-8, philo* wrote:
On 11/28/2014 12:00 PM, HerHusband wrote:
We had a couple of major power outages this year and ran out of water, so
it has renewed my interest in finding a backup when the power goes out.
We live in Washington state and everything here is powered by
electricity.

We have a woodstove for backup heat, and battery powered LED lights and
radio that can last for days. Power failures almost always occur during
cold winter storms, so we can just stick our perishible foods outside if
the power goes out for more than a few hours. As long as we have water,
we can cook on the woodstove or heat water in a pan for washing up.

We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the power
goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.



snip


Why would the tank not be full at all times?

I'd figure out a way to always keep it full .

Because pressure tanks run on air pressure. Pump controller turns on at a set low pressure, fills tank to a set high pressure and cuts off.

Harry K

We live in a similar situation - propane for heating, electricity for everything
else including well. Average power out situations more than 15 minutes maybe
once a year. Longest power outage in the past 8 years has been 24 hours, with a
few that were 1-6 hours.

We keep a 50 gallon potable water storage tank in the garage along with a couple
of filled 8 gallon jerry cans. Add a small amount of chlorine per EPA guidelines
and storage isn't an issue. The storage tank and jerry cans have faucet valves
on them, so taking smaller amounts isn't an issue. That more than covers
drinking water, flushing toilets and the occasional navy shower.

We have an advanced septic system with pumps and an air compressor. That has a
certain amount of buffer (maybe a few hundred gallons max) before it needs power
to process, so more storage water isn't a good solution.

An inverter/battery/charger based system is going to be expensive to get any
kind of wattage/duration. I think a portable generator is really the correct
answer. Costco has a nice dual fuel (gas / propane) portable genset for around
$700 last time I looked. You can't run it off a BBQ grill tank for a long time,
but if you have larger tanks for your house it should work quite well. They
don't show it at Costco.com, but it looks like this one:

http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...sp?page=P03888

Make sure you get a transfer switch wired into your house. Cheap manual ones
work just fine. Running a suicide cord to a dryer outlet (or worse) is not a
good idea. Maintenance isn't that big a deal. Run it for 15 minutes every month.
If you use gasoline, add Stabil and replace or burn it dry once a year.

I've seen no reports for how well these work, but if you can get by with 900W,
they look interesting:

http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...1000iS_Bi_Fuel

Keep in mind that well motors (or any motor) have a significant surge/startup
draw that can overload your generator if not sized properly. And if you do an
inverter, make sure it's a true sine wave inverter. They are more expensive than
the square wave inverters, but a lot easier on your devices (if they work at
all).

Or just go to Costco and buy a 100 cases of water in 1/2 liter bottles.


HerHusband wrote:

We had a couple of major power outages this year and ran out of water, so
it has renewed my interest in finding a backup when the power goes out.
We live in Washington state and everything here is powered by
electricity.

We have a woodstove for backup heat, and battery powered LED lights and
radio that can last for days. Power failures almost always occur during
cold winter storms, so we can just stick our perishible foods outside if
the power goes out for more than a few hours. As long as we have water,
we can cook on the woodstove or heat water in a pan for washing up.

We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the power
goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.

I've thought about adding a second pressure tank, but there's no way I
can think of to ensure one is always fully pressurized (short of filling
it up and shutting the valve off. I am trying to avoid stagnant water).
Odds are both tanks would be just about empty when the power goes out.

The cheap solution is just to store containers of water somewhere. But,
that takes space and isn't very convenient. I don't know that my daughter
would be able or willing to lift a 5 gallon container of water to refill
a toilet tank if I'm not around.

A generator is an obvious option, but power outages are rather rare. I
don't want one more engine to have to maintain, worry about gas getting
stale and gumming up, etc. Propane generators might overcome the long
term storage issue, but they still take up space and require maintenance.
Not to mention, I don't really want to go out in cold wind storms to
start up a generator. Call me lazy.

An inverter/charger system with batteries would be a good solution.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen an affordable system that can power my 1/2
HP 240V well pump. The ones I have seen cost more than a generator, or I
would have to cobble together multiple devices (inverters, chargers, auto
transformers, etc.) to make everything work.

One final option I've thought of would be to store a water tank in our
heated attic space. I figured I could plumb the inlet at the top and the
outlet at the bottom so it is flushed regularly. With only a 9' rise it
would offer very little pressure, but I would think it would still refill
the toilets. We wouldn't be taking showers or washing laundry during a
power outage anyway. The major downside to this option is getting the
tank into the attic space and modifying all the plumbing. Doable, just
not my ideal option.

I'm curious what backup systems other water well users have come up with.

I am only looking for a backup for a day, not outages lasting a week or
more.

Thanks,

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

We keep a 50 gallon potable water storage tank in the garage along
with a couple of filled 8 gallon jerry cans. Add a small amount of
chlorine per EPA guidelines and storage isn't an issue.

I don't really have the space for a 50 gallon tank. I think several 5-10
gallon containers would be more doable. Those would at least fit in the
garage attic.

We have an advanced septic system with pumps and an air compressor.

Thankfully, ours is a regular gravity feed system. No power needed.

An inverter/battery/charger based system is going to be expensive to
get any kind of wattage/duration.

All I was really hoping for is a single recharge of the 80 gallon pressure
tank. If the power is out much longer than that, I would probably look for
other options (motel, etc.).

The 1/2 HP pump doesn't need much power, but as you said the startup surge
can be three times that, increasing the size of the inverter or generator
needed.

Make sure you get a transfer switch wired into your house.

Our pump is in a well house that has it's own power supply (not connected
to the house). I already wired the pump with a plug I can unplug from the
wall and plug into another power source. All I need is the other power
source.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

"HerHusband" wrote in message


Our pump is in a well house that has it's own power supply (not
connected
to the house). I already wired the pump with a plug I can unplug from
the
wall and plug into another power source. All I need is the other power
source.

I wonder, can a hand pump be fitted to a well along with the electric
pump? I have no idea but I well remember a hand pump on our back entry,
used to pump soft rain water from a cistern (city water was very hard).

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 7:04:20 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
"HerHusband" wrote in message


Our pump is in a well house that has it's own power supply (not
connected
to the house). I already wired the pump with a plug I can unplug from
the
wall and plug into another power source. All I need is the other power
source.

I wonder, can a hand pump be fitted to a well along with the electric
pump? I have no idea but I well remember a hand pump on our back entry,
used to pump soft rain water from a cistern (city water was very hard).

--

dadiOH
____________________________


In some cases, yes.. But the max lift for water is ~25 ft. So if
the water level is lower than that, then you need either a jet pump or
submersible.

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 7:04:20 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
"HerHusband" wrote in message


Our pump is in a well house that has it's own power supply (not
connected
to the house). I already wired the pump with a plug I can unplug from
the
wall and plug into another power source. All I need is the other power
source.

I wonder, can a hand pump be fitted to a well along with the electric
pump? I have no idea but I well remember a hand pump on our back entry,
used to pump soft rain water from a cistern (city water was very hard).

--

dadiOH
____________________________


In some cases, yes.. But the max lift for water is ~25 ft. So if
the water level is lower than that, then you need either a jet pump or
submersible.

how about a small 12v submersible?

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 4:34:31 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 7:04:20 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
"HerHusband" wrote in message


Our pump is in a well house that has it's own power supply (not
connected
to the house). I already wired the pump with a plug I can unplug from
the
wall and plug into another power source. All I need is the other power
source.

I wonder, can a hand pump be fitted to a well along with the electric
pump? I have no idea but I well remember a hand pump on our back entry,
used to pump soft rain water from a cistern (city water was very hard).

--

dadiOH
____________________________


In some cases, yes.. But the max lift for water is ~25 ft. So if
the water level is lower than that, then you need either a jet pump or
submersible.

That is if you are using a suction type pump. There are lots of pumps that have the working part down in the water worked by what is known as "suction rods". Those are what were used by windmills back in the pre-electric power days. IIANM there are hand pumps working the same way. Now the 'static level' of the well comes into play as one wouldn't want to try to manually pump a 100'
column of water.

Harry K

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 4:04:20 AM UTC-8, dadiOH wrote:
"HerHusband" wrote in message


Our pump is in a well house that has it's own power supply (not
connected
to the house). I already wired the pump with a plug I can unplug from
the
wall and plug into another power source. All I need is the other power
source.

I wonder, can a hand pump be fitted to a well along with the electric
pump? I have no idea but I well remember a hand pump on our back entry,
used to pump soft rain water from a cistern (city water was very hard).


Yes it can and is done but I have no idea if there is a depth limit on one.

Harry K

Harry K wrote:
....

Yes it can and is done but I have no idea if there is a depth limit on one.

if you don't need that many gallons per day you can
use a much smaller pump run off battery backup. i'm
pretty sure they have them available.

in terms of simple and least expensive when the power
goes out here i have a few gallon jugs in the closet
for flushing when needed. only used them a few times.

the last time the power went out i filled up some
buckets from the faucet while the water had pressure
and we used that water instead -- i never needed to get
the gallon jugs out.

our water table is really high (2-3ft most of the
year) so i could get by with a hand pump for almost
everything except drinking/cooking water. i don't
know how high the well water gets under natural
pressure but i think it is down several hundred feet.
shallow wells get salty and/or coal seam flavored water.


songbird

On 11/28/2014 1:33 PM, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
We live in a similar situation - propane for heating, electricity for everything
else including well. Average power out situations more than 15 minutes maybe
once a year. Longest power outage in the past 8 years has been 24 hours, with a
few that were 1-6 hours.

We keep a 50 gallon potable water storage tank in the garage along with a couple
of filled 8 gallon jerry cans. Add a small amount of chlorine per EPA guidelines
and storage isn't an issue. The storage tank and jerry cans have faucet valves
on them, so taking smaller amounts isn't an issue. That more than covers
drinking water, flushing toilets and the occasional navy shower.

We have an advanced septic system with pumps and an air compressor. That has a
certain amount of buffer (maybe a few hundred gallons max) before it needs power
to process, so more storage water isn't a good solution.

An inverter/battery/charger based system is going to be expensive to get any
kind of wattage/duration. I think a portable generator is really the correct
answer. Costco has a nice dual fuel (gas / propane) portable genset for around
$700 last time I looked. You can't run it off a BBQ grill tank for a long time,
but if you have larger tanks for your house it should work quite well. They
don't show it at Costco.com, but it looks like this one:

http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...sp?page=P03888

Make sure you get a transfer switch wired into your house. Cheap manual ones
work just fine. Running a suicide cord to a dryer outlet (or worse) is not a
good idea. Maintenance isn't that big a deal. Run it for 15 minutes every month.
If you use gasoline, add Stabil and replace or burn it dry once a year.

I've seen no reports for how well these work, but if you can get by with 900W,
they look interesting:

http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...1000iS_Bi_Fuel

Keep in mind that well motors (or any motor) have a significant surge/startup
draw that can overload your generator if not sized properly. And if you do an
inverter, make sure it's a true sine wave inverter. They are more expensive than
the square wave inverters, but a lot easier on your devices (if they work at
all).

Or just go to Costco and buy a 100 cases of water in 1/2 liter bottles.


HerHusband wrote:

I'm curious what backup systems other water well users have come up with.

I am only looking for a backup for a day, not outages lasting a week or
more.

I'm not a well user, but my backup power is a
gasoline generator. I've got a gascan for the
mower, etc, so have some gas on hand.

Generator oversized by a bit is good idea, and
also to check the amp draw of the motor, if
you've got those skills.

Another option to discuss, is a power inverter
to put on your car battery with the car running.
Extension cords to the well.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Friday, November 28, 2014 1:00:58 PM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:

My first thought is if it's just for a day, whatever min is in
that 80 gallon tank, ie assuming it's almost about to kick the
pump on when power goes out, would be enough for me. Or that
plus a couple of 5 gallon jugs.

One easy option would be to adjust the kick in pressure on your 80
tank so that it doesn't get as low before it kicks on. That should
give you a min of 20 gallons to work with. Or add
that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no
air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for
about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons,
X being the size of the additional tank into buckets. I guess you
could also plumb in a tank of compressed air that you could activate,
that would then provide pressure, so that you could use the full 80
or whatever gallons.

For me, in lieu of all that, I'd just get a generator, because not
only can it supply water, but it can keep the heat, lights, fridge, etc
going too.

One easy option would be to adjust the kick in pressure on your 80
tank so that it doesn't get as low before it kicks on. That should
give you a min of 20 gallons to work with.

Interesting idea, but it would make the pump run more frequently
(shortening it's life). I don't know if there would be any other side
effects.

Or add that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no
air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for
about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons,
X being the size of the additional tank into buckets.

We sort of have that situation now. Even when the tank is empty, we still
have whatever water is in the 150+ 1" pipe running from the well to the
house. The pressure tank sits 10-15 feet higher than the house, so it still
flows (slowly) into the house. It's usually good for 4-5 toilet flushes
even once the tank is empty.

I'd just get a generator, because not only can it supply water,
but it can keep the heat, lights, fridge, etc going too.

The well and house are on two separate power supplies. Unless I want to
move the generator back and forth, it wouldn't be very convenient. Not to
mention having to rewire the house circuits.

I'm fine going without power for a day or two, but it's harder to do
without water.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

On Friday, November 28, 2014 10:35:59 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, November 28, 2014 1:00:58 PM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:

My first thought is if it's just for a day, whatever min is in
that 80 gallon tank, ie assuming it's almost about to kick the
pump on when power goes out, would be enough for me. Or that
plus a couple of 5 gallon jugs.

One easy option would be to adjust the kick in pressure on your 80
tank so that it doesn't get as low before it kicks on. That should
give you a min of 20 gallons to work with. Or add
that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no
air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for
about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons,
X being the size of the additional tank into buckets.

Wrong. Both tanks will fill and empty simultaneously. Basically you would be simulating one double size tank as far as system operation goes.

snip

Harry K

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:33:08 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
On Friday, November 28, 2014 10:35:59 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, November 28, 2014 1:00:58 PM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:

My first thought is if it's just for a day, whatever min is in
that 80 gallon tank, ie assuming it's almost about to kick the
pump on when power goes out, would be enough for me. Or that
plus a couple of 5 gallon jugs.

One easy option would be to adjust the kick in pressure on your 80
tank so that it doesn't get as low before it kicks on. That should
give you a min of 20 gallons to work with. Or add
that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no
air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for
about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons,
X being the size of the additional tank into buckets.

Wrong. Both tanks will fill and empty simultaneously. Basically you would be simulating one double size tank as far as system operation goes.

snip

Harry K

Not wrong. You don't have air or an air bladder in the second tank.
The second tank is 100% water. Water from the existing tank comes into
the bottom. Water supply to the house comes out the top. The only air
is in the bladder in his existing tank.

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:03:36 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:33:08 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
On Friday, November 28, 2014 10:35:59 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, November 28, 2014 1:00:58 PM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:

My first thought is if it's just for a day, whatever min is in
that 80 gallon tank, ie assuming it's almost about to kick the
pump on when power goes out, would be enough for me. Or that
plus a couple of 5 gallon jugs.

One easy option would be to adjust the kick in pressure on your 80
tank so that it doesn't get as low before it kicks on. That should
give you a min of 20 gallons to work with. Or add
that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no
air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for
about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons,
X being the size of the additional tank into buckets.

Wrong. Both tanks will fill and empty simultaneously. Basically you would be simulating one double size tank as far as system operation goes.

snip

Harry K

Not wrong. You don't have air or an air bladder in the second tank.
The second tank is 100% water. Water from the existing tank comes into
the bottom. Water supply to the house comes out the top. The only air
is in the bladder in his existing tank.

1. What is keeping the water in the second tank from draining out? It would have to have an air inlet to drain. It is remotely feasible to put an air valve on top of the second tank, fill it, turn off the air valve and have your 80 gallons of reserve. But then in short order you have 80 gallons of stagnant water. No different than putting in an 80gal tank and filling it through a hose.

2. Water in well pressure tanks comes out through the bottom, actually through the same pipe.

Harry K

On 11/29/2014 10:45 AM, Harry K wrote:
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:03:36 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
Not wrong. You don't have air or an air bladder in the second tank.
The second tank is 100% water. Water from the existing tank comes into
the bottom. Water supply to the house comes out the top. The only air
is in the bladder in his existing tank.

1. What is keeping the water in the second tank from
draining out? It would have to have an air inlet to drain.

CY: Some thing called sheet metal, and fiberglass
keeps the water from draining out.
Yes, if there were air inlet and drain valve, it
might release its water.

It is remotely feasible to put an air valve on top of the
second tank, fill it, turn off the air valve and have your
80 gallons of reserve.

CY: We mentioned put the second tank inline with the water
supply.

But then in short order you have 80 gallons of stagnant water.

CY: Inline with the inlet.

No different than putting in an 80gal tank and filling it
through a hose.

CY: Reading comprehension....

2. Water in well pressure tanks comes out through the bottom,
actually through the same pipe.

CY: And if it's a huge Extrol kind of tank, goes out the
same pipe.

Harry K

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 10:45:52 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:03:36 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:33:08 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
On Friday, November 28, 2014 10:35:59 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, November 28, 2014 1:00:58 PM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:

My first thought is if it's just for a day, whatever min is in
that 80 gallon tank, ie assuming it's almost about to kick the
pump on when power goes out, would be enough for me. Or that
plus a couple of 5 gallon jugs.

One easy option would be to adjust the kick in pressure on your 80
tank so that it doesn't get as low before it kicks on. That should
give you a min of 20 gallons to work with. Or add
that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no
air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for
about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons,
X being the size of the additional tank into buckets.

Wrong. Both tanks will fill and empty simultaneously. Basically you would be simulating one double size tank as far as system operation goes.

snip

Harry K

Not wrong. You don't have air or an air bladder in the second tank.
The second tank is 100% water. Water from the existing tank comes into
the bottom. Water supply to the house comes out the top. The only air
is in the bladder in his existing tank.

1. What is keeping the water in the second tank from draining out?

What is keeping the water in the rest of the system from draining out, eg
all the water in the pipes, the water heeater, etc?

It would have to have an air inlet to drain. It is remotely feasible to put an air valve on top of the second tank, fill it, turn off the air valve and have your 80 gallons of reserve. But then in short order you have 80 gallons of stagnant water.

No you don't. Because per my descripiton, that 80 gallons is in the
normal flow during normal operation, 99% of the time. It only becomes
"stagnant" when the power goes off. I hardly think the water is going to
go bad in just a day or two. Good grief.


No different than putting in an 80gal tank and filling it through a hose.


Yes it is, because per my suggestion the second tank is in the normal flow
of water. If you did what you just suggested, then you would have a tank
of water that becomes stagnant. Capiche?


2. Water in well pressure tanks comes out through the bottom, actually through the same pipe.

Harry K

Irreleveant

On 11/29/2014 2:33 AM, Harry K wrote:
On Friday, November 28, 2014 10:35:59 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
Or add
that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no
air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for
about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons,
X being the size of the additional tank into buckets.

Wrong. Both tanks will fill and empty simultaneously.
Basically you would be simulating one double size tank
as far as system operation goes.

snip

Harry K


Wrong. Trader means to put some thing like a 20
gal water heater in the cold line that goes to
the pressure tank. When the power is off, the OP
can let air in the TP valve, and drain water off
the sediment faucet. With what old folks called a
"tempering tank" he'd have another few gal of water
in the house that gets refreshed automatic like.

Wrong. How's it feel, now?

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 5:09:07 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/29/2014 2:33 AM, Harry K wrote:
On Friday, November 28, 2014 10:35:59 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
Or add
that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no
air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for
about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons,
X being the size of the additional tank into buckets.

Wrong. Both tanks will fill and empty simultaneously.
Basically you would be simulating one double size tank
as far as system operation goes.

snip

Harry K


Wrong. Trader means to put some thing like a 20
gal water heater in the cold line that goes to
the pressure tank. When the power is off, the OP
can let air in the TP valve, and drain water off
the sediment faucet. With what old folks called a
"tempering tank" he'd have another few gal of water
in the house that gets refreshed automatic like.

Wrong. How's it feel, now?


In particular, it seemed a valid and pertinent suggestion, since
HH stated this:

"I've thought about adding a second pressure tank, but there's no way I
can think of to ensure one is always fully pressurized (short of filling
it up and shutting the valve off. I am trying to avoid stagnant water).
Odds are both tanks would be just about empty when the power goes out. "

As you say, my suggestion keeps the second tank full of water.
It will only have pressure as much as the original tanks has.
But after that pressure is gone, he still will have a tank full of
water that he can draw from via a bucket. And it won't be stagnant.
As I suggested, he could even have a tank of compressed air rigged
up, so that he could pressurize it during an outage. If he made it
CO2, he could have sparkling water to bath in!

On 11/29/2014 7:06 AM, trader_4 wrote:
In particular, it seemed a valid and pertinent suggestion, since
HH stated this:

"I've thought about adding a second pressure tank, but there's no way I
can think of to ensure one is always fully pressurized (short of filling
it up and shutting the valve off. I am trying to avoid stagnant water).
Odds are both tanks would be just about empty when the power goes out. "

As you say, my suggestion keeps the second tank full of water.
It will only have pressure as much as the original tanks has.
But after that pressure is gone, he still will have a tank full of
water that he can draw from via a bucket. And it won't be stagnant.
As I suggested, he could even have a tank of compressed air rigged
up, so that he could pressurize it during an outage. If he made it
CO2, he could have sparkling water to bath in!

If the "tempering tank" (got to call it some thing)
was plumbed with a couple valve, the water out could
come either from the top (normal) or bottom (in case
of emergency). For day to day use, the water coming
in the bottom and out the top would keep the tank full.

In case of power cut, put on the carbon dioxide tank,
and discharge water out the bottom of the tempering tank,
into the house water piping.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:09:07 AM UTC-8, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/29/2014 2:33 AM, Harry K wrote:
On Friday, November 28, 2014 10:35:59 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
Or add
that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no
air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for
about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons,
X being the size of the additional tank into buckets.

Wrong. Both tanks will fill and empty simultaneously.
Basically you would be simulating one double size tank
as far as system operation goes.

snip

Harry K


Wrong. Trader means to put some thing like a 20
gal water heater in the cold line that goes to
the pressure tank. When the power is off, the OP
can let air in the TP valve, and drain water off
the sediment faucet. With what old folks called a
"tempering tank" he'd have another few gal of water
in the house that gets refreshed automatic like.

Wrong. How's it feel, now?

His system will work tht way as long as you are satisfied with stagnant, stinky water when you need it. Or at least flush it several times a year. I have a 1/4 mile interconnect between me and my neighbors well in case one of us has a well oproblem. We have both used it (I had to use it for a month last summer). To use it though one has to flush 1/4 mile pipe thoroughly (I used the lawn sprinkler). You do not want to smell what first comes out..

Harry K.

On 11/29/2014 10:50 AM, Harry K wrote:
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:09:07 AM UTC-8, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wrong. Trader means to put some thing like a 20
gal water heater in the cold line that goes to
the pressure tank. When the power is off, the OP
can let air in the TP valve, and drain water off
the sediment faucet. With what old folks called a
"tempering tank" he'd have another few gal of water
in the house that gets refreshed automatic like.

Wrong. How's it feel, now?

His system will work that way as long as you are
satisfied with stagnant, stinky water when you need
it. Or at least flush it several times a year. I
have a 1/4 mile interconnect between me and my
neighbors well in case one of us has a well problem.
We have both used it (I had to use it for a month
last summer). To use it though one has to flush
1/4 mile pipe thoroughly (I used the lawn sprinkler).
You do not want to smell what first comes out.

Harry K.


The system Trader mentioned, uses a tank inline
with the water inlet to his pressure tank. Every
time you use water inside the house, the tempering
tank water is being replaced. Your reading
comprehension sucks bigtime, you are clueless
at this point.

Do you, (clueless), and your neighbor (also
clueless) use compressed air to try and empty
out the 1/4 mile pipe between uses? No, didn't
think so.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/28/2014 10:00 AM, HerHusband wrote:


We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the power
goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.

I've thought about adding a second pressure tank, but there's no way I
can think of to ensure one is always fully pressurized (short of filling
it up and shutting the valve off. I am trying to avoid stagnant water).
Odds are both tanks would be just about empty when the power goes out.



You had better hope your pressure tank DOESN'T fill up. That would mean
it has an air leak and your well pump would run continuously.

When our well pump died several years ago, we bought a bunch of 5 gallon
plastic water cans to supplement the one can we had for camping trips.
Took to neighbors and filled them.

Your daughter can fill a kitchen pot from the water can and dump into
the toilet tank. Sure, takes more time.

If the road to a neighbor with power is open, make a deal with them to
fill you cans. You do have a pickup, don't you?

If the water is stored in the dark and kept cool, it should last as long
as the winter storms are possible. then dump and refill at the beginning
of next winter.

Your outages can't be as long as we had in Issaquah, Wa in 1994. More
than a week.

Paul, in Central Oregon

You had better hope your pressure tank DOESN'T fill up. That would
mean it has an air leak and your well pump would run continuously.

Yep, good point. I should have said the tank had reached it's upper cutoff
point ("full").

When our well pump died several years ago, we bought a bunch of 5
gallon plastic water cans to supplement the one can we had for camping
trips.

That's sounding more and more like the most reasonable and cost effective
solution.

You do have a pickup, don't you?

Nope, just a couple of small VW cars. As long as the snow plow can make it
up the hill, we can make it out.

Your outages can't be as long as we had in Issaquah, Wa in 1994.
More than a week.

We rarely have more than one or two outages a year, and those are usually
just a few hours at most. The ones this year were actually longer than we
typically have. However, I think it was about the same time frame as you
that our power went out for close to a week. We had no backup heat at that
time, which made for a rough week.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

On Fri, 28 Nov 2014 18:00:39 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote in


Call me lazy.

Ok, you are lazy, and there aren't any good solutions for lazy people.

If you weren't so lazy, I would reccomend that generator solution. It
will not only solve your water problems, but it would also provide
some lights and fans to move the heat from the wood stove around.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

HerHusband wrote:
We had a couple of major power outages this year and ran out of
water, so it has renewed my interest in finding a backup when the
power goes out. We live in Washington state and everything here is
powered by electricity.

We have a woodstove for backup heat, and battery powered LED lights
and radio that can last for days. Power failures almost always occur
during cold winter storms, so we can just stick our perishible foods
outside if the power goes out for more than a few hours. As long as
we have water, we can cook on the woodstove or heat water in a pan
for washing up.

We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the
power goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost
power.

I've thought about adding a second pressure tank, but there's no way I
can think of to ensure one is always fully pressurized (short of
filling it up and shutting the valve off. I am trying to avoid
stagnant water). Odds are both tanks would be just about empty when
the power goes out.

The cheap solution is just to store containers of water somewhere.
But, that takes space and isn't very convenient. I don't know that my
daughter would be able or willing to lift a 5 gallon container of
water to refill a toilet tank if I'm not around.

A generator is an obvious option, but power outages are rather rare. I
don't want one more engine to have to maintain, worry about gas
getting stale and gumming up, etc. Propane generators might overcome
the long term storage issue, but they still take up space and require
maintenance. Not to mention, I don't really want to go out in cold
wind storms to start up a generator. Call me lazy.

An inverter/charger system with batteries would be a good solution.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen an affordable system that can power my
1/2 HP 240V well pump. The ones I have seen cost more than a
generator, or I would have to cobble together multiple devices
(inverters, chargers, auto transformers, etc.) to make everything
work.

One final option I've thought of would be to store a water tank in our
heated attic space. I figured I could plumb the inlet at the top and
the outlet at the bottom so it is flushed regularly. With only a 9'
rise it would offer very little pressure, but I would think it would
still refill the toilets. We wouldn't be taking showers or washing
laundry during a power outage anyway. The major downside to this
option is getting the tank into the attic space and modifying all the
plumbing. Doable, just not my ideal option.

I'm curious what backup systems other water well users have come up
with.

I am only looking for a backup for a day, not outages lasting a week
or more.

Thanks,

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

A small generator set is really your best option . Use it to fill the
tanks then shut it down . Most modern sets have a valve to shut off fuel
flow so you can run the carb dry , and a little sta-bil in the tank
especially if you can get non-eth fuel will keep the gas usable for
months .

--
Snag

On 11/28/2014 2:35 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
A small generator set is really your best option . Use it to fill the
tanks then shut it down . Most modern sets have a valve to shut off fuel
flow so you can run the carb dry , and a little sta-bil in the tank
especially if you can get non-eth fuel will keep the gas usable for
months .


My ETQ two stroke developed some really awful rod
knock after I ran it dry a couple times. Need to
use the rocker switch, and leave the gas mix in
the crankcase. Still runs, but the quiet is gone.

I thought I was helping, by running it dry.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/28/2014 3:10 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

My ETQ two stroke developed some really awful rod
knock after I ran it dry a couple times. Need to
use the rocker switch, and leave the gas mix in
the crankcase. Still runs, but the quiet is gone.

I thought I was helping, by running it dry.

According to the experts at Stihl, running it dry is the proper thing to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPRwCf6-ybs

On 11/28/2014 7:36 PM, Fake ID wrote:
On 11/28/2014 3:10 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

My ETQ two stroke developed some really awful rod
knock after I ran it dry a couple times. Need to
use the rocker switch, and leave the gas mix in
the crankcase. Still runs, but the quiet is gone.

I thought I was helping, by running it dry.

According to the experts at Stihl, running it dry is the proper thing to
do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPRwCf6-ybs


Well, if I ever get an ETQ brand generator by
Stihl, I'll have the correct information.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Friday, November 28, 2014 5:00:02 PM UTC-8, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/28/2014 7:36 PM, Fake ID wrote:
On 11/28/2014 3:10 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

My ETQ two stroke developed some really awful rod
knock after I ran it dry a couple times. Need to
use the rocker switch, and leave the gas mix in
the crankcase. Still runs, but the quiet is gone.

I thought I was helping, by running it dry.

According to the experts at Stihl, running it dry is the proper thing to
do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPRwCf6-ybs


Well, if I ever get an ETQ brand generator by
Stihl, I'll have the correct information.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

So far you haven't given any cite to any manufacturer saying to "fog it".

Harry K

On Friday, November 28, 2014 4:36:50 PM UTC-8, Fake ID wrote:
On 11/28/2014 3:10 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

My ETQ two stroke developed some really awful rod
knock after I ran it dry a couple times. Need to
use the rocker switch, and leave the gas mix in
the crankcase. Still runs, but the quiet is gone.

I thought I was helping, by running it dry.

According to the experts at Stihl, running it dry is the proper thing to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPRwCf6-ybs

According to every chain saw manual I have ever seen (and I have seen a whole bunch) they should be run dry before putting them away. Even at the last 'cough' they have just drawn charge of fuel/oil mix.

Harry K

On Friday, November 28, 2014 3:10:03 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/28/2014 2:35 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
A small generator set is really your best option . Use it to fill the
tanks then shut it down . Most modern sets have a valve to shut off fuel
flow so you can run the carb dry , and a little sta-bil in the tank
especially if you can get non-eth fuel will keep the gas usable for
months .


My ETQ two stroke developed some really awful rod
knock after I ran it dry a couple times. Need to
use the rocker switch, and leave the gas mix in
the crankcase. Still runs, but the quiet is gone.

I thought I was helping, by running it dry.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

yeah, a two stroke that draws through the crankcase is the exception, don't run those dry.

nate

On 11/28/2014 4:07 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014 15:10:27 -0500, Stormin Mormon

My ETQ two stroke developed some really awful rod
knock after I ran it dry a couple times. Need to
use the rocker switch, and leave the gas mix in
the crankcase. Still runs, but the quiet is gone.

I thought I was helping, by running it dry.

You fog 2 strokes


I'm not sure why you are telling me that I do
some thing, when I've got no idea what it is
you are telling me that I do. How would you
know that I do this "whatever" thing?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..