On Monday, November 24, 2014 11:44:20 AM UTC-5, N8N wrote:
On Saturday, November 22, 2014 2:37:55 PM UTC-5, Hongyi Kang wrote:
On Saturday, November 22, 2014 1:38:39 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, November 22, 2014 12:54:35 PM UTC-5, Hongyi Kang wrote:
On Saturday, November 22, 2014 11:56:53 AM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:
trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, November 21, 2014 8:52:22 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/21/2014 8:40 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
panes. Panel can be reused after cleaning with CLR.

Ideally, with the flow of water through, the
panel "never needs cleaning". But nothing is
perfect.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

The panels in those last a year to maybe 3 years, depending on
how hard the water is. For the OP:

Hi,
If your water is not hard. Digital ATD type humidity sensor hardly ever
goes out of calibration.

Thanks Tony for all the responses and thanks Stormin for helping again! Unfortunately I'm Chinese but I always wished I could understand Korean
If the flap you were referring to was the damper that controls the air flow from supply to the humidifier(the one that I could control with the horizontal/vertical switch), then yes I did double check and make sure it was fully on. I've also tried different water flow from the hot water supply, from minimum to maximum, humidity output did not change. The humidity monitor I was using was AcuRite 00613A1 Indoor Humidity Monitor. Bought from Amazon, not sure if it's okay to post links here so I'll just skip that for now. Anyways for the two years since I had it its performance had been satisfactory for me, it was able to sense humidity changes and never fluctuated when in a stable environment.

I just found out that the lowest reading this humidity monitor can have was 16%, therefore the hot air I was measuring probably was even lower than 16%, this is the main thing I was concerned about, and also why I think I might be experiencing something different from other people who has the same unit.


You said you were measuring the 16% right at the heat register. Keep in mind
that the air there is much hotter than room temperature. When that air cools
down to room temp, the humidity will be much higher than 16%. You also said
that the humidity in the room was 33% and the outside temps were as low as
29F. If you set that unit to 45%, as the outside temp drops, the unit will
automatically lower the humidity below 45%, assuming it has the outside temp
sensor connected. When it's in the 20s you probably don't want it above 40%.

Also, a furnace hunidifier can't humidify when it's not on. If it's not
very cold out, then it may not run enough to be able to boost it as high as
you want. Depending on how it's wired up, if it runs when the blower is on,
you could run the blower constantly for a while to get more humidity out of it.
You'll get humidity out, just not quite as much as you would if the furnace
was firing. You apparently have hot water going into it, so that will help.

Thanks Trader, your statement about hot air cooling down and then becoming much higher than 16% sounds reasonable, but I'm not sure if this hot/cold air difference will be able to account for the difference between the 45% and 16%. The humidifier should not sense the outside temperature because when I had it installed I specifically asked for them to not put in the automatic one, but the manual one instead. So the humidistat on the return duct is just a round knob pointing to different numbers, no digital display.

So I guess my question boils down to whether the 16% humidity right out of register is reasonable or not, if it is, I probably shouldn't even bother getting the service guy back in again. But if it's not, I'm thinking whether there are other hardware configuration problems involved that they could make improvements on.

Thanks again.

yes it definitely would. Hot air can absorb much more water than cool air. That is why in the winter the inside of your house is so dry to begin with - it may be 80% RH outside at 20 degrees but (let me google for a real number) that same mass of air heated to 65 degrees will be around 15% RH without having any change in water content.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_humidity
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html

So, the most accurate RH measurements should not be made at the register but in fact as far away from them as possible, as the air coming out of the supply duct will be warmer than the ambient temperature of the house.

Now that said, 16% does seem a little low, but it will definitely be lower than your target of 40-45% due to the temperature difference.

This is also why your humidistat is mounted on the return duct.

nate

This is definitely very useful information! I never knew this hot/cold RH difference before. I'll keep my humidistat by the return register then. Thanks Nate!

On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:53:27 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:

I set the manual humidistat to 45% since the very beginning.
And I have another small humidistat clipped right on one of the
second floor registers where the hot air comes out.

Just FYI ... the control device is a humidistat. The sensor (or gauge)
is a hygrometer.

You'd be surprised how much difference temperature makes in how much
water air can hold. I found a calculator at

http://andrew.rsmas.miami.edu/bmcnoldy/Humidity.html

and plugged in some of the numbers you'd quoted. It doesn't convert
directly from RH at one temperature to RH at another temperature, so
you have to take it in two steps.

If the temperature is 72F and the relative humidity is 45%, then the
dewpoint is about 50F.

If the dewpoint is 50F and the relative humidity is 16%, then the
temperature is 105F.

And 105F coming out of a register from a gas furnace is reasonable.

So yes, it's quite reasonable that the RH could be 16% at the register
and 45% in the middle of the room. Or IOW, 16% RH at 105F and 45% RH
at 72F are the same *absolute* humidity.

Edward

Edward Reid wrote:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:53:27 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:

I set the manual humidistat to 45% since the very beginning.
And I have another small humidistat clipped right on one of the
second floor registers where the hot air comes out.

Just FYI ... the control device is a humidistat. The sensor (or gauge)
is a hygrometer.

You'd be surprised how much difference temperature makes in how much
water air can hold. I found a calculator at

http://andrew.rsmas.miami.edu/bmcnoldy/Humidity.html

and plugged in some of the numbers you'd quoted. It doesn't convert
directly from RH at one temperature to RH at another temperature, so
you have to take it in two steps.

If the temperature is 72F and the relative humidity is 45%, then the
dewpoint is about 50F.

If the dewpoint is 50F and the relative humidity is 16%, then the
temperature is 105F.

And 105F coming out of a register from a gas furnace is reasonable.

So yes, it's quite reasonable that the RH could be 16% at the register
and 45% in the middle of the room. Or IOW, 16% RH at 105F and 45% RH
at 72F are the same *absolute* humidity.

Edward

Hi,
Every house I had custom built and lived in always had humidistat
mounted side by side with thermostat. In present house I upgraded to
wireless thermostat which I can move around in the house and humidity
is monitored by humidistat still at location next to thermostat used to
be on a wall.

On Monday, November 24, 2014 6:35:53 PM UTC-5, Edward Reid wrote:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:53:27 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:

I set the manual humidistat to 45% since the very beginning.
And I have another small humidistat clipped right on one of the
second floor registers where the hot air comes out.

Just FYI ... the control device is a humidistat. The sensor (or gauge)
is a hygrometer.

You'd be surprised how much difference temperature makes in how much
water air can hold. I found a calculator at

http://andrew.rsmas.miami.edu/bmcnoldy/Humidity.html

and plugged in some of the numbers you'd quoted. It doesn't convert
directly from RH at one temperature to RH at another temperature, so
you have to take it in two steps.

If the temperature is 72F and the relative humidity is 45%, then the
dewpoint is about 50F.

If the dewpoint is 50F and the relative humidity is 16%, then the
temperature is 105F.

And 105F coming out of a register from a gas furnace is reasonable.

So yes, it's quite reasonable that the RH could be 16% at the register
and 45% in the middle of the room. Or IOW, 16% RH at 105F and 45% RH
at 72F are the same *absolute* humidity.

Edward

Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air coming out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit so that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

If you are getting condensation on your windows, you have enough humidity. Whether or not it is comfortable is a separate matter. If the humidistat is set for maximum, that is all you can do if everything else has been checked out.

You might call the manufacturer and see if they would send out someone for free to look at your problem as a goodwill gesture. If you tell about an unsatsfactory service call and your wife and new baby, they might be more wiling to send someone out without a charge to preserve their reputation. It might not hurt to mention this series of posts on this forum and how it is hurting their reputation to not have solved the problem. A little pressure on themg.

On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:28:33 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:


Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html=20

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just=
finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70=
% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air comi=
ng out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think=
my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's =
problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit s=
o that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

That' a very good idea. I had a room AC when I lived in a very small
room and the AC was right next to my bed, and the fan ran all night even
if the air had cooled off and the compressor wasn't running. I hated
the noise.

I took off the cover, and just had to rearrange three slip-on
connectors. I didnt' have to cut or solder anything, and when the
compressor went off, the fan did too. Furnaces and humidifiers are
more spread out so it probably won't be that easy, but it can certainly
be done.

Actually you only need one wire with two ends.

There is probably a neutral wire from the humidifier to a common neutral
somewhere . You can leave that alone. All you need is a hot
wire that runs from the hot wire where the blower gets its power and
goes straight to the humidifier, where the hot wire from the furnace
control unit already connects to the humidifier. So the power
doesn't have to go through the furnace control unit.

You ought to put a switch on the wire, for when your wife is fully
recovered, or for when you trade houses with someone from New Zealand.

On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 23:46:36 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:28:33 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:


Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html=20

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just=
finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70=
% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air comi=
ng out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think=
my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's =
problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit s=
o that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

That' a very good idea. I had a room AC when I lived in a very small
room and the AC was right next to my bed, and the fan ran all night even
if the air had cooled off and the compressor wasn't running. I hated
the noise.

I took off the cover, and just had to rearrange three slip-on
connectors. I didnt' have to cut or solder anything, and when the
compressor went off, the fan did too. Furnaces and humidifiers are
more spread out so it probably won't be that easy, but it can certainly
be done.

Actually you only need one wire with two ends.

There is probably a neutral wire from the humidifier to a common neutral
somewhere . You can leave that alone. All you need is a hot
wire that runs from the hot wire where the blower gets its power and
goes straight to the humidifier, where the hot wire from the furnace
control unit already connects to the humidifier. So the power
doesn't have to go through the furnace control unit.

You ought to put a switch on the wire, for when your wife is fully
recovered, or for when you trade houses with someone from New Zealand.

You also might (eventually?) want a humidistat to control this wire
too**. I didn't read all of the thead, but I'm guessing you want
higher than you have now, but lower than 100% RH. If you put the
blower on ON, so it runs 24 hours a day, you might well get more
humidity than even you want.

**You could probably wire it to inlude the current humidistat, but I
never read whether that was part of the problem or not. AFAIK yoiu
might need a second one set higher.

On Monday, November 24, 2014 10:28:36 PM UTC-5, Hongyi Kang wrote:
On Monday, November 24, 2014 6:35:53 PM UTC-5, Edward Reid wrote:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:53:27 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:

I set the manual humidistat to 45% since the very beginning.
And I have another small humidistat clipped right on one of the
second floor registers where the hot air comes out.

Just FYI ... the control device is a humidistat. The sensor (or gauge)
is a hygrometer.

You'd be surprised how much difference temperature makes in how much
water air can hold. I found a calculator at

http://andrew.rsmas.miami.edu/bmcnoldy/Humidity.html

and plugged in some of the numbers you'd quoted. It doesn't convert
directly from RH at one temperature to RH at another temperature, so
you have to take it in two steps.

If the temperature is 72F and the relative humidity is 45%, then the
dewpoint is about 50F.

If the dewpoint is 50F and the relative humidity is 16%, then the
temperature is 105F.

And 105F coming out of a register from a gas furnace is reasonable.

So yes, it's quite reasonable that the RH could be 16% at the register
and 45% in the middle of the room. Or IOW, 16% RH at 105F and 45% RH
at 72F are the same *absolute* humidity.

Edward

Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air coming out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit so that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

If the humidity is already at 70 to 75% and you're intending to drive it
higher, you're almost certainly headed for trouble in NY. No building
science folks I've ever seen recommend humidity anywhere near that high.
About 50% is tops for a house in winter. And if it gets down to 10F or 20F
then more like 30% is tops. At 70%+ expect lots of condensation and likely
damage. The most I would do is keep maybe a bedroom higher, with a separate
humidifier.

On Monday, November 24, 2014 11:46:43 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:28:33 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:


Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html=20

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just=
finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70=
% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air comi=
ng out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think=
my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's =
problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit s=
o that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

That' a very good idea. I had a room AC when I lived in a very small
room and the AC was right next to my bed, and the fan ran all night even
if the air had cooled off and the compressor wasn't running. I hated
the noise.

I took off the cover, and just had to rearrange three slip-on
connectors. I didnt' have to cut or solder anything, and when the
compressor went off, the fan did too. Furnaces and humidifiers are
more spread out so it probably won't be that easy, but it can certainly
be done.

Actually you only need one wire with two ends.

There is probably a neutral wire from the humidifier to a common neutral
somewhere . You can leave that alone. All you need is a hot
wire that runs from the hot wire where the blower gets its power and
goes straight to the humidifier, where the hot wire from the furnace
control unit already connects to the humidifier. So the power
doesn't have to go through the furnace control unit.


Are you aware that he said he had a variable speed blower, which
today is likely ECM?


You ought to put a switch on the wire, for when your wife is fully
recovered, or for when you trade houses with someone from New Zealand.

On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:58:57 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, November 24, 2014 11:46:43 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:28:33 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:


Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html=20

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just=
finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70=
% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air comi=
ng out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think=
my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's =
problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit s=
o that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

That' a very good idea. I had a room AC when I lived in a very small
room and the AC was right next to my bed, and the fan ran all night even
if the air had cooled off and the compressor wasn't running. I hated
the noise.

I took off the cover, and just had to rearrange three slip-on
connectors. I didnt' have to cut or solder anything, and when the
compressor went off, the fan did too. Furnaces and humidifiers are
more spread out so it probably won't be that easy, but it can certainly
be done.

Actually you only need one wire with two ends.

There is probably a neutral wire from the humidifier to a common neutral
somewhere . You can leave that alone. All you need is a hot
wire that runs from the hot wire where the blower gets its power and
goes straight to the humidifier, where the hot wire from the furnace
control unit already connects to the humidifier. So the power
doesn't have to go through the furnace control unit.


Are you aware that he said he had a variable speed blower, which
today is likely ECM?

right.

and even with an old fashion multi speed blower there are complications. If you connect the humdifier directly to the blower motor, the humidifer will be fed with different voltages when the blower operates at different speeds.

The best way to deal with this is to add another relay to power the humidifer. A not so bad way to deal with it is to connect the humidifier to the HIGH speed tap. Then the humidifier will see full line voltage when the blower is on high and it will see LOWER line voltage when the blower is on low.. This is not too bad usually. The worst thing you can do is connect the humidifer to a low speed tap. Then the voltage to the humdifier may get above 120 when the blower is on high speed, which can be very bad for the humidifer.

Bottom line, use a relay or be sure to connect to a the high speed tap and use a meter to check the voltage at the humidifer over all modes of operation.
Nothing is ever easy. :-)

Mark

On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 9:25:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:58:57 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, November 24, 2014 11:46:43 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:28:33 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:


Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html=20

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just=
finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70=
% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air comi=
ng out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think=
my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's =
problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit s=
o that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

That' a very good idea. I had a room AC when I lived in a very small
room and the AC was right next to my bed, and the fan ran all night even
if the air had cooled off and the compressor wasn't running. I hated
the noise.

I took off the cover, and just had to rearrange three slip-on
connectors. I didnt' have to cut or solder anything, and when the
compressor went off, the fan did too. Furnaces and humidifiers are
more spread out so it probably won't be that easy, but it can certainly
be done.

Actually you only need one wire with two ends.

There is probably a neutral wire from the humidifier to a common neutral
somewhere . You can leave that alone. All you need is a hot
wire that runs from the hot wire where the blower gets its power and
goes straight to the humidifier, where the hot wire from the furnace
control unit already connects to the humidifier. So the power
doesn't have to go through the furnace control unit.


Are you aware that he said he had a variable speed blower, which
today is likely ECM?

right.

and even with an old fashion multi speed blower there are complications. If you connect the humdifier directly to the blower motor, the humidifer will be fed with different voltages when the blower operates at different speeds.

The best way to deal with this is to add another relay to power the humidifer.

They have current sensing relays that can be added. But he may not even
need one. It's a modern furnace and they typically have outputs on the
control board for a humidifier, air cleaner, etc. First thing is to find
out what the furnace has and under what conditions it's activated.

Plus it looks like a moot point to me. After measuring the humidity in
the house, instead of at the hot air register, I believe the OP reported he
was getting 70 - 75% with the way it's wired now. He said something about
making it higher, but that's another story, and IMO, a bad idea.




Bottom line, use a relay or be sure to connect to a the high speed tap and use a meter to check the voltage at the humidifer over all modes of operation.
Nothing is ever easy. :-)

Mark

Leaving what's working alone is.....

On Monday, November 24, 2014 10:54:22 PM UTC-5, wrote:
If you are getting condensation on your windows, you have enough humidity.. Whether or not it is comfortable is a separate matter. If the humidistat is set for maximum, that is all you can do if everything else has been checked out.

You might call the manufacturer and see if they would send out someone for free to look at your problem as a goodwill gesture. If you tell about an unsatsfactory service call and your wife and new baby, they might be more wiling to send someone out without a charge to preserve their reputation. It might not hurt to mention this series of posts on this forum and how it is hurting their reputation to not have solved the problem. A little pressure on themg.

Thanks for the advice! Will certainly do.

On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:56:01 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, November 24, 2014 10:28:36 PM UTC-5, Hongyi Kang wrote:
On Monday, November 24, 2014 6:35:53 PM UTC-5, Edward Reid wrote:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:53:27 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:

I set the manual humidistat to 45% since the very beginning.
And I have another small humidistat clipped right on one of the
second floor registers where the hot air comes out.

Just FYI ... the control device is a humidistat. The sensor (or gauge)
is a hygrometer.

You'd be surprised how much difference temperature makes in how much
water air can hold. I found a calculator at

http://andrew.rsmas.miami.edu/bmcnoldy/Humidity.html

and plugged in some of the numbers you'd quoted. It doesn't convert
directly from RH at one temperature to RH at another temperature, so
you have to take it in two steps.

If the temperature is 72F and the relative humidity is 45%, then the
dewpoint is about 50F.

If the dewpoint is 50F and the relative humidity is 16%, then the
temperature is 105F.

And 105F coming out of a register from a gas furnace is reasonable.

So yes, it's quite reasonable that the RH could be 16% at the register
and 45% in the middle of the room. Or IOW, 16% RH at 105F and 45% RH
at 72F are the same *absolute* humidity.

Edward

Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air coming out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit so that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

If the humidity is already at 70 to 75% and you're intending to drive it
higher, you're almost certainly headed for trouble in NY. No building
science folks I've ever seen recommend humidity anywhere near that high.
About 50% is tops for a house in winter. And if it gets down to 10F or 20F
then more like 30% is tops. At 70%+ expect lots of condensation and likely
damage. The most I would do is keep maybe a bedroom higher, with a separate
humidifier.

Oh the 70% came from the salt and water calibration you mentioned before. I put the hygrometer with water saturated salt in a zip bag and it read 70% instead of 75%, my room never was that high lol.

On Monday, November 24, 2014 11:54:26 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 23:46:36 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:28:33 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:


Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html=20

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just=
finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70=
% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air comi=
ng out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think=
my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's =
problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit s=
o that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

That' a very good idea. I had a room AC when I lived in a very small
room and the AC was right next to my bed, and the fan ran all night even
if the air had cooled off and the compressor wasn't running. I hated
the noise.

I took off the cover, and just had to rearrange three slip-on
connectors. I didnt' have to cut or solder anything, and when the
compressor went off, the fan did too. Furnaces and humidifiers are
more spread out so it probably won't be that easy, but it can certainly
be done.

Actually you only need one wire with two ends.

There is probably a neutral wire from the humidifier to a common neutral
somewhere . You can leave that alone. All you need is a hot
wire that runs from the hot wire where the blower gets its power and
goes straight to the humidifier, where the hot wire from the furnace
control unit already connects to the humidifier. So the power
doesn't have to go through the furnace control unit.

You ought to put a switch on the wire, for when your wife is fully
recovered, or for when you trade houses with someone from New Zealand.

You also might (eventually?) want a humidistat to control this wire
too**. I didn't read all of the thead, but I'm guessing you want
higher than you have now, but lower than 100% RH. If you put the
blower on ON, so it runs 24 hours a day, you might well get more
humidity than even you want.

**You could probably wire it to inlude the current humidistat, but I
never read whether that was part of the problem or not. AFAIK yoiu
might need a second one set higher.

I think Tony mentioned earlier that the humidifiers should come with a transformer which allows the blower power be hooked up with it, maybe I could ask the contractor and see if they have that?

On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 9:25:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:58:57 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, November 24, 2014 11:46:43 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:28:33 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:


Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html=20

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just=
finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70=
% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air comi=
ng out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think=
my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's =
problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit s=
o that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

That' a very good idea. I had a room AC when I lived in a very small
room and the AC was right next to my bed, and the fan ran all night even
if the air had cooled off and the compressor wasn't running. I hated
the noise.

I took off the cover, and just had to rearrange three slip-on
connectors. I didnt' have to cut or solder anything, and when the
compressor went off, the fan did too. Furnaces and humidifiers are
more spread out so it probably won't be that easy, but it can certainly
be done.

Actually you only need one wire with two ends.

There is probably a neutral wire from the humidifier to a common neutral
somewhere . You can leave that alone. All you need is a hot
wire that runs from the hot wire where the blower gets its power and
goes straight to the humidifier, where the hot wire from the furnace
control unit already connects to the humidifier. So the power
doesn't have to go through the furnace control unit.


Are you aware that he said he had a variable speed blower, which
today is likely ECM?

right.

and even with an old fashion multi speed blower there are complications. If you connect the humdifier directly to the blower motor, the humidifer will be fed with different voltages when the blower operates at different speeds.

The best way to deal with this is to add another relay to power the humidifer. A not so bad way to deal with it is to connect the humidifier to the HIGH speed tap. Then the humidifier will see full line voltage when the blower is on high and it will see LOWER line voltage when the blower is on low. This is not too bad usually. The worst thing you can do is connect the humidifer to a low speed tap. Then the voltage to the humdifier may get above 120 when the blower is on high speed, which can be very bad for the humidifer.

Bottom line, use a relay or be sure to connect to a the high speed tap and use a meter to check the voltage at the humidifer over all modes of operation.
Nothing is ever easy. :-)

Mark

Tony mentioned that those humidifiers should usually come with a little transformer which transforms 120V to 24V I suppose, and can be used to connect the blower power to the humidifier. I might be able to ask the contractor that?

On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 8:50:18 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 9:25:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:58:57 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, November 24, 2014 11:46:43 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:28:33 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:


Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html=20

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just=
finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70=
% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air comi=
ng out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think=
my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's =
problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit s=
o that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

That' a very good idea. I had a room AC when I lived in a very small
room and the AC was right next to my bed, and the fan ran all night even
if the air had cooled off and the compressor wasn't running. I hated
the noise.

I took off the cover, and just had to rearrange three slip-on
connectors. I didnt' have to cut or solder anything, and when the
compressor went off, the fan did too. Furnaces and humidifiers are
more spread out so it probably won't be that easy, but it can certainly
be done.

Actually you only need one wire with two ends.

There is probably a neutral wire from the humidifier to a common neutral
somewhere . You can leave that alone. All you need is a hot
wire that runs from the hot wire where the blower gets its power and
goes straight to the humidifier, where the hot wire from the furnace
control unit already connects to the humidifier. So the power
doesn't have to go through the furnace control unit.


Are you aware that he said he had a variable speed blower, which
today is likely ECM?

right.

and even with an old fashion multi speed blower there are complications. If you connect the humdifier directly to the blower motor, the humidifer will be fed with different voltages when the blower operates at different speeds.

The best way to deal with this is to add another relay to power the humidifer.

They have current sensing relays that can be added. But he may not even
need one. It's a modern furnace and they typically have outputs on the
control board for a humidifier, air cleaner, etc. First thing is to find
out what the furnace has and under what conditions it's activated.

Plus it looks like a moot point to me. After measuring the humidity in
the house, instead of at the hot air register, I believe the OP reported he
was getting 70 - 75% with the way it's wired now. He said something about
making it higher, but that's another story, and IMO, a bad idea.




Bottom line, use a relay or be sure to connect to a the high speed tap and use a meter to check the voltage at the humidifer over all modes of operation.
Nothing is ever easy. :-)

Mark

Leaving what's working alone is.....

Hi Trader, the 70% was actually measured in a zip bag with water saturated
salt to calibrate the hygrometer. My room was never that high. These a few days it had been warmer, the humidity had been aroun 45%-50%.

wrote:
Are you aware that he said he had a variable speed blower, which
today is likely ECM?

right.

and even with an old fashion multi speed blower there are complications. If you connect the humdifier directly to the blower motor, the humidifer will be fed with different voltages when the blower operates at different speeds.

The best way to deal with this is to add another relay to power the humidifer. A not so bad way to deal with it is to connect the humidifier to the HIGH speed tap. Then the humidifier will see full line voltage when the blower is on high and it will see LOWER line voltage when the blower is on low. This is not too bad usually. The worst thing you can do is connect the humidifer to a low speed tap. Then the voltage to the humdifier may get above 120 when the blower is on high speed, which can be very bad for the humidifer.

Bottom line, use a relay or be sure to connect to a the high speed tap and use a meter to check the voltage at the humidifer over all modes of operation.
Nothing is ever easy. :-)

Mark

Hi,
ECM or X13 type motor draws power from main AC, Humidifier connection
should be there. ECM is servorized DC motor ans X13 is also DC motor
with speed taps. Rectifiers produce DC for them for main 120V AC input.
Look at the control board schematics and trace the AC input to blower
circuit. No relay or hard thinking needed.

On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 11:19:15 AM UTC-5, Hongyi Kang wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 9:25:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:58:57 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, November 24, 2014 11:46:43 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:28:33 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:


Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html=20

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just=
finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70=
% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air comi=
ng out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think=
my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's =
problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit s=
o that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

That' a very good idea. I had a room AC when I lived in a very small
room and the AC was right next to my bed, and the fan ran all night even
if the air had cooled off and the compressor wasn't running. I hated
the noise.

I took off the cover, and just had to rearrange three slip-on
connectors. I didnt' have to cut or solder anything, and when the
compressor went off, the fan did too. Furnaces and humidifiers are
more spread out so it probably won't be that easy, but it can certainly
be done.

Actually you only need one wire with two ends.

There is probably a neutral wire from the humidifier to a common neutral
somewhere . You can leave that alone. All you need is a hot
wire that runs from the hot wire where the blower gets its power and
goes straight to the humidifier, where the hot wire from the furnace
control unit already connects to the humidifier. So the power
doesn't have to go through the furnace control unit.


Are you aware that he said he had a variable speed blower, which
today is likely ECM?

right.

and even with an old fashion multi speed blower there are complications.. If you connect the humdifier directly to the blower motor, the humidifer will be fed with different voltages when the blower operates at different speeds.

The best way to deal with this is to add another relay to power the humidifer. A not so bad way to deal with it is to connect the humidifier to the HIGH speed tap. Then the humidifier will see full line voltage when the blower is on high and it will see LOWER line voltage when the blower is on low. This is not too bad usually. The worst thing you can do is connect the humidifer to a low speed tap. Then the voltage to the humdifier may get above 120 when the blower is on high speed, which can be very bad for the humidifer.

Bottom line, use a relay or be sure to connect to a the high speed tap and use a meter to check the voltage at the humidifer over all modes of operation.
Nothing is ever easy. :-)

Mark

Tony mentioned that those humidifiers should usually come with a little transformer which transforms 120V to 24V I suppose, and can be used to connect the blower power to the humidifier. I might be able to ask the contractor that?

See the post from mako about blower motors. It's not as simple as
just connecting the humidifier directly to the blower motor, certainly not with
a modern variable speed blower. An older style multi-speed blower has
multiple windings that selectively get powered to get the various speeds.
New ones are typical ECM, with a complex controller on the furnace board
that drives the motor, not a wire with 120V on it.

On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 11:27:34 AM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:
wrote:
Are you aware that he said he had a variable speed blower, which
today is likely ECM?

right.

and even with an old fashion multi speed blower there are complications.. If you connect the humdifier directly to the blower motor, the humidifer will be fed with different voltages when the blower operates at different speeds.

The best way to deal with this is to add another relay to power the humidifer. A not so bad way to deal with it is to connect the humidifier to the HIGH speed tap. Then the humidifier will see full line voltage when the blower is on high and it will see LOWER line voltage when the blower is on low. This is not too bad usually. The worst thing you can do is connect the humidifer to a low speed tap. Then the voltage to the humdifier may get above 120 when the blower is on high speed, which can be very bad for the humidifer.

Bottom line, use a relay or be sure to connect to a the high speed tap and use a meter to check the voltage at the humidifer over all modes of operation.
Nothing is ever easy. :-)

Mark

Hi,
ECM or X13 type motor draws power from main AC, Humidifier connection
should be there. ECM is servorized DC motor ans X13 is also DC motor
with speed taps. Rectifiers produce DC for them for main 120V AC input.
Look at the control board schematics and trace the AC input to blower
circuit. No relay or hard thinking needed.

Hi Tony, my furnace was a Trane XV95, I can probably look through the manual
for the control board schematics? is that right?

On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 11:28:50 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 11:19:15 AM UTC-5, Hongyi Kang wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 9:25:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:58:57 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, November 24, 2014 11:46:43 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:28:33 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:


Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html=20

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just=
finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70=
% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air comi=
ng out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think=
my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's =
problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit s=
o that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

That' a very good idea. I had a room AC when I lived in a very small
room and the AC was right next to my bed, and the fan ran all night even
if the air had cooled off and the compressor wasn't running. I hated
the noise.

I took off the cover, and just had to rearrange three slip-on
connectors. I didnt' have to cut or solder anything, and when the
compressor went off, the fan did too. Furnaces and humidifiers are
more spread out so it probably won't be that easy, but it can certainly
be done.

Actually you only need one wire with two ends.

There is probably a neutral wire from the humidifier to a common neutral
somewhere . You can leave that alone. All you need is a hot
wire that runs from the hot wire where the blower gets its power and
goes straight to the humidifier, where the hot wire from the furnace
control unit already connects to the humidifier. So the power
doesn't have to go through the furnace control unit.


Are you aware that he said he had a variable speed blower, which
today is likely ECM?

right.

and even with an old fashion multi speed blower there are complications. If you connect the humdifier directly to the blower motor, the humidifer will be fed with different voltages when the blower operates at different speeds.

The best way to deal with this is to add another relay to power the humidifer. A not so bad way to deal with it is to connect the humidifier to the HIGH speed tap. Then the humidifier will see full line voltage when the blower is on high and it will see LOWER line voltage when the blower is on low. This is not too bad usually. The worst thing you can do is connect the humidifer to a low speed tap. Then the voltage to the humdifier may get above 120 when the blower is on high speed, which can be very bad for the humidifer.

Bottom line, use a relay or be sure to connect to a the high speed tap and use a meter to check the voltage at the humidifer over all modes of operation.
Nothing is ever easy. :-)

Mark

Tony mentioned that those humidifiers should usually come with a little transformer which transforms 120V to 24V I suppose, and can be used to connect the blower power to the humidifier. I might be able to ask the contractor that?

See the post from mako about blower motors. It's not as simple as
just connecting the humidifier directly to the blower motor, certainly not with
a modern variable speed blower. An older style multi-speed blower has
multiple windings that selectively get powered to get the various speeds.
New ones are typical ECM, with a complex controller on the furnace board
that drives the motor, not a wire with 120V on it.

Hi Trader, the furnace I had installed was a Trane xv95. I will look
through the manual to see if it's possible. I'm also waiting for the
contractor company to call me back and let me know if it is doable.

On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 11:27:34 AM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:
wrote:
Are you aware that he said he had a variable speed blower, which
today is likely ECM?

right.

and even with an old fashion multi speed blower there are complications.. If you connect the humdifier directly to the blower motor, the humidifer will be fed with different voltages when the blower operates at different speeds.

The best way to deal with this is to add another relay to power the humidifer. A not so bad way to deal with it is to connect the humidifier to the HIGH speed tap. Then the humidifier will see full line voltage when the blower is on high and it will see LOWER line voltage when the blower is on low. This is not too bad usually. The worst thing you can do is connect the humidifer to a low speed tap. Then the voltage to the humdifier may get above 120 when the blower is on high speed, which can be very bad for the humidifer.

Bottom line, use a relay or be sure to connect to a the high speed tap and use a meter to check the voltage at the humidifer over all modes of operation.
Nothing is ever easy. :-)

Mark

Hi,
ECM or X13 type motor draws power from main AC, Humidifier connection
should be there. ECM is servorized DC motor ans X13 is also DC motor
with speed taps. Rectifiers produce DC for them for main 120V AC input.
Look at the control board schematics and trace the AC input to blower
circuit. No relay or hard thinking needed.

I don't know about your furnace or blower. But mine and I think most modern
ones of the type we're talking about,
the AC comes into the main furnace control board on a pair of wires that
gets connected to the house 120V AC.
The ECM blower motor is driven by a wiring harness connected between the blower
motor and that main control board. Between the incoming AC and the
ECM blower is the guts of the control board including CPU and power control
electonics to drive the ECM motor. IDK how exactly one figures
out what is going on in there and simply taps into a PC board. And even
if you do, what's there surely isn't just 120V, because the controller
can make the motor spin at whatever continously variable speed it wants and can somehow even sense the load on the motor to gauge the airflow.

If it's done the way you say, I'd like to see an example of an
install manual for a humidifier that says so.

On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Hongyi Kang wrote:

Hi Tony, my furnace was a Trane XV95, I can probably look through the manual
for the control board schematics? is that right?

Several installation manuals are listed he
http://www.platformusers.net/rt/tran...lation-manual/

They require signing up at the site to read. I didn't do that. The "Full
Download" is the biggest file.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

Hongyi Kang wrote:
On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 11:27:34 AM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:
wrote:
Are you aware that he said he had a variable speed blower, which
today is likely ECM?

right.

and even with an old fashion multi speed blower there are complications. If you connect the humdifier directly to the blower motor, the humidifer will be fed with different voltages when the blower operates at different speeds.

The best way to deal with this is to add another relay to power the humidifer. A not so bad way to deal with it is to connect the humidifier to the HIGH speed tap. Then the humidifier will see full line voltage when the blower is on high and it will see LOWER line voltage when the blower is on low. This is not too bad usually. The worst thing you can do is connect the humidifer to a low speed tap. Then the voltage to the humdifier may get above 120 when the blower is on high speed, which can be very bad for the humidifer.

Bottom line, use a relay or be sure to connect to a the high speed tap and use a meter to check the voltage at the humidifer over all modes of operation.
Nothing is ever easy. :-)

Mark

Hi,
ECM or X13 type motor draws power from main AC, Humidifier connection
should be there. ECM is servorized DC motor ans X13 is also DC motor
with speed taps. Rectifiers produce DC for them for main 120V AC input.
Look at the control board schematics and trace the AC input to blower
circuit. No relay or hard thinking needed.

Hi Tony, my furnace was a Trane XV95, I can probably look through the manual
for the control board schematics? is that right?

Hi,
Of course.
If and when some times you need extra humidity in the house now
you have to run the heating mode to activate the humidifier which is not
ideal. I always hooked up the humidifier to run when blower runs.
When I installed Aprilaire kit, it contained humidistat, small 24V AC
transformer, outdoor temperature sensor to automate the humidity level.
I did not use this sensor. Before this unit I used Lennox spray nozzle type.
Next time I want to try steam generating type. It is getting cold again
here with snow coming down.

There are two separate problems here.

The humidifier may or may not be keeping the house at the designed humidity..

Some humans in the house have symptoms or discomfort that may or may not be related to low humidity.

If there is condensation on the windows, normally that means the humidity is too high. If that condensation is liquid (a slight haze up to actual drips) then there is no question. That level of humidity is dangerously high. It can lead to mold growth which can lead to respiratory systems in sensitive people.

If that condensation is beautiful frost crystals, there is some chance humidity is not too high, but the window is too cold. That's bad too because you're wasting energy, but the humidity might not be too high. There is still almost no chance the humidity is too low, IMO.

How tight the house is makes a difference, too. By tight, I mean how much outside air sneaks in. That outside air is cold, so it can't hold a lot of moisture. When it warms up, it can hold more, so the air is relatively dry. Houses in the US are usually not very tight. When we lived in Germany our house was very tight and had to be ventilated by opening windows daily even in winter.

On Friday, November 28, 2014 8:47:21 AM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
There are two separate problems here.

Maybe even more issues, but I'm not sure there is any real problem.



The humidifier may or may not be keeping the house at the designed humidity.


HK finally reported that the actual humidity he's measuring in the house
is 45 - 50%. So, apparently the humidifier is working.



Some humans in the house have symptoms or discomfort that may or may not be related to low humidity.

If there is condensation on the windows, normally that means the humidity is too high. If that condensation is liquid (a slight haze up to actual drips) then there is no question. That level of humidity is dangerously high. It can lead to mold growth which can lead to respiratory systems in sensitive people.


I mostly agree. I think some small amount of condensation at few windows
may still be OK. But if there is condensation, water on a lot of windows,
then the humidity is too high. I think 45% is the max you typically want
when it's ~35 outside, less as the temperature goes down. Which is why
the better models come with the outdoor temp sensor, to automatically
compensate, but apparently some people don't want that.


If that condensation is beautiful frost crystals, there is some chance humidity is not too high, but the window is too cold. That's bad too because you're wasting energy, but the humidity might not be too high. There is still almost no chance the humidity is too low, IMO.

I think HK's biggest problem was that instead of measuring the humidity
by placing the hygrometer at some typical locations inside the house,
he was placing it at the heat register, giving a false reading.



How tight the house is makes a difference, too. By tight, I mean how much outside air sneaks in. That outside air is cold, so it can't hold a lot of moisture. When it warms up, it can hold more, so the air is relatively dry. Houses in the US are usually not very tight. When we lived in Germany our house was very tight and had to be ventilated by opening windows daily even in winter.

Agree.

I currently see condensation mainly just on the bathroom and kitchen windows. And Trader, when I mentioned 45% to 50%, I also said it was because the weather became warmer, not because the hunidifier was behaving differently.. Now the outdoor temperature has decreased again, the humidity dropped again to between 35% and 40%.

On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 11:19:15 AM UTC-5, Hongyi Kang wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 9:25:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:58:57 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, November 24, 2014 11:46:43 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:28:33 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:


Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html=20

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just=
finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70=
% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air comi=
ng out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think=
my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's =
problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit s=
o that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

That' a very good idea. I had a room AC when I lived in a very small
room and the AC was right next to my bed, and the fan ran all night even
if the air had cooled off and the compressor wasn't running. I hated
the noise.

I took off the cover, and just had to rearrange three slip-on
connectors. I didnt' have to cut or solder anything, and when the
compressor went off, the fan did too. Furnaces and humidifiers are
more spread out so it probably won't be that easy, but it can certainly
be done.

Actually you only need one wire with two ends.

There is probably a neutral wire from the humidifier to a common neutral
somewhere . You can leave that alone. All you need is a hot
wire that runs from the hot wire where the blower gets its power and
goes straight to the humidifier, where the hot wire from the furnace
control unit already connects to the humidifier. So the power
doesn't have to go through the furnace control unit.


Are you aware that he said he had a variable speed blower, which
today is likely ECM?

right.

and even with an old fashion multi speed blower there are complications.. If you connect the humdifier directly to the blower motor, the humidifer will be fed with different voltages when the blower operates at different speeds.

The best way to deal with this is to add another relay to power the humidifer. A not so bad way to deal with it is to connect the humidifier to the HIGH speed tap. Then the humidifier will see full line voltage when the blower is on high and it will see LOWER line voltage when the blower is on low. This is not too bad usually. The worst thing you can do is connect the humidifer to a low speed tap. Then the voltage to the humdifier may get above 120 when the blower is on high speed, which can be very bad for the humidifer.

Bottom line, use a relay or be sure to connect to a the high speed tap and use a meter to check the voltage at the humidifer over all modes of operation.
Nothing is ever easy. :-)

Mark

Tony mentioned that those humidifiers should usually come with a little transformer which transforms 120V to 24V I suppose, and can be used to connect the blower power to the humidifier. I might be able to ask the contractor that?

Some humidifiers are powered by 120VAC and some are powered by 24VAC. Some furnace control boards have a "humidifier" terminal that outputs 120VAC and some output 24VAC. Some do not have a "humidifier" terminal at all.

In any case, a relay or two should fix you up if you have a mismatch between your boards and your humidifier. But I would assume if this was professionally installed, that everything is reasonably copacetic. (NB: not always.... e.g. I had to rework the humidifier installation at my old place where the humidifier was installed before the AC unit, so it was wired into the "EAC" not the "HUM" terminal. So the humidifier could run when the AC was on, or the fan was manually turned on by the new thermostat. Old heat only stat was a honeywell round mercury thing with no separate fan terminal so either would have worked in the original configuration. Easy fix though.)

Have you had a chance to let your hygrometer sit in the middle of a room long enough for it to stabilize? What was the reading?

On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 11:21:18 AM UTC-5, Hongyi Kang wrote:
On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 8:50:18 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 9:25:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:58:57 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, November 24, 2014 11:46:43 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:28:33 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:


Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html=20

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH. And I just=
finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70=
% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air comi=
ng out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think=
my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's =
problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit s=
o that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

That' a very good idea. I had a room AC when I lived in a very small
room and the AC was right next to my bed, and the fan ran all night even
if the air had cooled off and the compressor wasn't running. I hated
the noise.

I took off the cover, and just had to rearrange three slip-on
connectors. I didnt' have to cut or solder anything, and when the
compressor went off, the fan did too. Furnaces and humidifiers are
more spread out so it probably won't be that easy, but it can certainly
be done.

Actually you only need one wire with two ends.

There is probably a neutral wire from the humidifier to a common neutral
somewhere . You can leave that alone. All you need is a hot
wire that runs from the hot wire where the blower gets its power and
goes straight to the humidifier, where the hot wire from the furnace
control unit already connects to the humidifier. So the power
doesn't have to go through the furnace control unit.


Are you aware that he said he had a variable speed blower, which
today is likely ECM?

right.

and even with an old fashion multi speed blower there are complications. If you connect the humdifier directly to the blower motor, the humidifer will be fed with different voltages when the blower operates at different speeds.

The best way to deal with this is to add another relay to power the humidifer.

They have current sensing relays that can be added. But he may not even
need one. It's a modern furnace and they typically have outputs on the
control board for a humidifier, air cleaner, etc. First thing is to find
out what the furnace has and under what conditions it's activated.

Plus it looks like a moot point to me. After measuring the humidity in
the house, instead of at the hot air register, I believe the OP reported he
was getting 70 - 75% with the way it's wired now. He said something about
making it higher, but that's another story, and IMO, a bad idea.




Bottom line, use a relay or be sure to connect to a the high speed tap and use a meter to check the voltage at the humidifer over all modes of operation.
Nothing is ever easy. :-)

Mark

Leaving what's working alone is.....

Hi Trader, the 70% was actually measured in a zip bag with water saturated
salt to calibrate the hygrometer. My room was never that high. These a few days it had been warmer, the humidity had been aroun 45%-50%.

That should be fine then, that's typically your target humidity. Too much lower and you can feel the effects of the dryness; too much higher and you're risking mold growth etc. and also possible damage from condensation. If it's really cold outside you may get condensation on your windows even at 40-45% RH inside, so you may have to drop back a little in really cold weather.

nate

On Monday, December 1, 2014 11:02:50 AM UTC-5, N8N wrote:
On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 11:21:18 AM UTC-5, Hongyi Kang wrote:
On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 8:50:18 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 9:25:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:58:57 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, November 24, 2014 11:46:43 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:28:33 -0800 (PST), Hongyi Kang
wrote:


Thanks Edward, one of the websites Nate posted earlier:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html=20

actually had the conversion between different temperature's RH.. And I just=
finished the salt calibration of my hygrometer, it's actually measuring 70=
% instead of 75%, so I guess it is 5% off. The temperature of the air comi=
ng out of the hot register was between 95 and 102. Based on these, I think=
my humidifier is probably working fine, just not enough yet for my wife's =
problem. I'll ask the service tech and see if they could rewire the unit s=
o that it can run while the blower is on. Thanks!

That' a very good idea. I had a room AC when I lived in a very small
room and the AC was right next to my bed, and the fan ran all night even
if the air had cooled off and the compressor wasn't running. I hated
the noise.

I took off the cover, and just had to rearrange three slip-on
connectors. I didnt' have to cut or solder anything, and when the
compressor went off, the fan did too. Furnaces and humidifiers are
more spread out so it probably won't be that easy, but it can certainly
be done.

Actually you only need one wire with two ends.

There is probably a neutral wire from the humidifier to a common neutral
somewhere . You can leave that alone. All you need is a hot
wire that runs from the hot wire where the blower gets its power and
goes straight to the humidifier, where the hot wire from the furnace
control unit already connects to the humidifier. So the power
doesn't have to go through the furnace control unit.


Are you aware that he said he had a variable speed blower, which
today is likely ECM?

right.

and even with an old fashion multi speed blower there are complications. If you connect the humdifier directly to the blower motor, the humidifer will be fed with different voltages when the blower operates at different speeds.

The best way to deal with this is to add another relay to power the humidifer.

They have current sensing relays that can be added. But he may not even
need one. It's a modern furnace and they typically have outputs on the
control board for a humidifier, air cleaner, etc. First thing is to find
out what the furnace has and under what conditions it's activated.

Plus it looks like a moot point to me. After measuring the humidity in
the house, instead of at the hot air register, I believe the OP reported he
was getting 70 - 75% with the way it's wired now. He said something about
making it higher, but that's another story, and IMO, a bad idea.




Bottom line, use a relay or be sure to connect to a the high speed tap and use a meter to check the voltage at the humidifer over all modes of operation.
Nothing is ever easy. :-)

Mark

Leaving what's working alone is.....

Hi Trader, the 70% was actually measured in a zip bag with water saturated
salt to calibrate the hygrometer. My room was never that high. These a few days it had been warmer, the humidity had been aroun 45%-50%.

That should be fine then, that's typically your target humidity. Too much lower and you can feel the effects of the dryness; too much higher and you're risking mold growth etc. and also possible damage from condensation. If it's really cold outside you may get condensation on your windows even at 40-45% RH inside, so you may have to drop back a little in really cold weather.

nate

Which is why the models with an outdoor temp sensor that automatically reduces
the target humidity level as the temp drops are a good idea. You don't have
to remember and fiddle with the setting when temps swing around in winter.

On Monday, 24 November 2014 16:44:20 UTC, N8N wrote:
On Saturday, November 22, 2014 2:37:55 PM UTC-5, Hongyi Kang wrote:
On Saturday, November 22, 2014 1:38:39 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, November 22, 2014 12:54:35 PM UTC-5, Hongyi Kang wrote:
On Saturday, November 22, 2014 11:56:53 AM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:
trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, November 21, 2014 8:52:22 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/21/2014 8:40 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
panes. Panel can be reused after cleaning with CLR.

Ideally, with the flow of water through, the
panel "never needs cleaning". But nothing is
perfect.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

The panels in those last a year to maybe 3 years, depending on
how hard the water is. For the OP:

Hi,
If your water is not hard. Digital ATD type humidity sensor hardly ever
goes out of calibration.

Thanks Tony for all the responses and thanks Stormin for helping again! Unfortunately I'm Chinese but I always wished I could understand Korean
If the flap you were referring to was the damper that controls the air flow from supply to the humidifier(the one that I could control with the horizontal/vertical switch), then yes I did double check and make sure it was fully on. I've also tried different water flow from the hot water supply, from minimum to maximum, humidity output did not change. The humidity monitor I was using was AcuRite 00613A1 Indoor Humidity Monitor. Bought from Amazon, not sure if it's okay to post links here so I'll just skip that for now. Anyways for the two years since I had it its performance had been satisfactory for me, it was able to sense humidity changes and never fluctuated when in a stable environment.

I just found out that the lowest reading this humidity monitor can have was 16%, therefore the hot air I was measuring probably was even lower than 16%, this is the main thing I was concerned about, and also why I think I might be experiencing something different from other people who has the same unit.


You said you were measuring the 16% right at the heat register. Keep in mind
that the air there is much hotter than room temperature. When that air cools
down to room temp, the humidity will be much higher than 16%. You also said
that the humidity in the room was 33% and the outside temps were as low as
29F. If you set that unit to 45%, as the outside temp drops, the unit will
automatically lower the humidity below 45%, assuming it has the outside temp
sensor connected. When it's in the 20s you probably don't want it above 40%.

Also, a furnace hunidifier can't humidify when it's not on. If it's not
very cold out, then it may not run enough to be able to boost it as high as
you want. Depending on how it's wired up, if it runs when the blower is on,
you could run the blower constantly for a while to get more humidity out of it.
You'll get humidity out, just not quite as much as you would if the furnace
was firing. You apparently have hot water going into it, so that will help.

Thanks Trader, your statement about hot air cooling down and then becoming much higher than 16% sounds reasonable, but I'm not sure if this hot/cold air difference will be able to account for the difference between the 45% and 16%. The humidifier should not sense the outside temperature because when I had it installed I specifically asked for them to not put in the automatic one, but the manual one instead. So the humidistat on the return duct is just a round knob pointing to different numbers, no digital display.

So I guess my question boils down to whether the 16% humidity right out of register is reasonable or not, if it is, I probably shouldn't even bother getting the service guy back in again. But if it's not, I'm thinking whether there are other hardware configuration problems involved that they could make improvements on.

Thanks again.

yes it definitely would. Hot air can absorb much more water than cool air. That is why in the winter the inside of your house is so dry to begin with - it may be 80% RH outside at 20 degrees but (let me google for a real number) that same mass of air heated to 65 degrees will be around 15% RH without having any change in water content.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_humidity
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html

So, the most accurate RH measurements should not be made at the register but in fact as far away from them as possible, as the air coming out of the supply duct will be warmer than the ambient temperature of the house.

Now that said, 16% does seem a little low, but it will definitely be lower than your target of 40-45% due to the temperature difference.

This is also why your humidistat is mounted on the return duct.

nate

Hi Nate!

You posted this website "http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/rh.html" in the past, and i am trying to log onto this. I cannot access this website. Is it possible to speak with you regarding theoretical RH at given temperatures?

I need some help.

thanks

Sim