Stormin Mormon soaked rusty pliers in HCl. Rbowman recommended
phosphoric acid, sold to etch concrete. That reminded me of naval
jelly. I knew it contained phosphoric acid. It also contains a gel and
rubbing alcohol. I wonder what the rubbing alcohol does.

I've had some success with vinegar and with vinegar and salt. Now I've
read the proper way to use vinegar and salt. Use an inert container
such as plastic or glass, big enough for the rusty item. Pour in enough
vinegar to cover the item. Stir in an excess of salt. Put an inert
spacer on the bottom to keep the steel from contacting the salt. Let
the item soak, completely submerged.

Vinegar works, but this mixture also contains HCl. The acetate
apparently keeps the HCl from eating the steel. You can pull the item
out to inspect and brush. When it's ready, immediately wash and oil.

Phosphoric acid is sold for converting rust (not removing it). I don't
know the concentration of the etching stuff, but Ospho is 75%. (Naval
jelly is 25-30%.) You brush or spray Ospho on and let it dry. If the
surface is badly pitted, you may repeat. If you brush away any white
powder, you have a good base to paint.

Ospho says their product can be used if you want to repaint spots where
rust is coming through a painted surface, but you should test to see if
Ospho damages your paint.

I'm looking forward to trying the proper method of using vinegar and salt.

I use Evapo-Rust:

http://www.evapo-rust.com/

Works great and can be reused dozens of times. Available on the shelves at O-Reilly Auto Parts and Harbor Freight.

Both hydrochloric acid and nitric acid will dissolve rust, and IMHO, those are the only two ways to go.

Phosphoric acid simply converts the rust into a relatively soft black compound called ferric phosphate.

Your idea of adding salt to vinegar is going to create an electrolyte so that if the steel is galvanized, the zinc coating will be eaten away if the underlying steel is also exposed. I really don't see how a salt/vinegar combination is going to remove rust any better than hydrochloric acid.

Hydrochloric acid attacks rust much more aggressively than it does bare steel, and it's worked well for me. When my sister's snowblower wheel was rusted onto the drive shaft, I was able to free it by applying hydrochloric acid with an eye dropper to the joint between the wheel's hub and the shaft. Capillary pressure drew the acid into the joint between them, dissolved the rust, and the wheel came free. The drive shaft appeared to be completely unaffected by the acid.

On 9/26/14, 8:40 PM, wrote:
I use Evapo-Rust:

http://www.evapo-rust.com/

Works great and can be reused dozens of times. Available on the shelves at O-Reilly Auto Parts and Harbor Freight.

Wow! They don't say what's in it except a that it's a
chelator/detergent. It's not hazardous, but you shouldn't drink it or
get it on your eyes. Soak to remove rust, rinse, and dip for rust
protection. A modern marvel!

On 9/26/14, 9:14 PM, nestork wrote:
Both hydrochloric acid and nitric acid will dissolve rust, and IMHO,
those are the only two ways to go.

Phosphoric acid simply converts the rust into a relatively soft black
compound called ferric phosphate.

It seems to make a better base for primer than bare metal. I used my
license plate 100,000 miles over several years with no garage and no
paint failure or rust.

Your idea of adding salt to vinegar is going to create an electrolyte so
that if the steel is galvanized, the zinc coating will be eaten away if
the underlying steel is also exposed. I really don't see how a
salt/vinegar combination is going to remove rust any better than
hydrochloric acid.

I hadn't thought of dunking something with a zinc plating. Isn't an HCl
solution an electrolyte? Vinegar is 1/10 normal acetic acid with a pH
of 3. Salt has a pH of 7. The mixture sounds safer for people and
materials than a 1/10 normal solution of HCl, with a pH of 1.

Hydrochloric acid attacks rust much more aggressively than it does bare
steel, and it's worked well for me. When my sister's snowblower wheel
was rusted onto the drive shaft, I was able to free it by applying
hydrochloric acid with an eye dropper to the joint between the wheel's
hub and the shaft. Capillary pressure drew the acid into the joint
between them, dissolved the rust, and the wheel came free. The drive
shaft appeared to be completely unaffected by the acid.

http://www.schsm.org/html/hints_and_tips.html

Marv Klotz described it. He has a machine shop. He has tried HCl but
says he won't have it in his shop now. He says if you keep the item
submerged, the vinegar/salt solution won't attack the base metal.

On 9/27/14, 9:30 AM, RobertMacy wrote:
On Fri, 26 Sep 2014 17:14:48 -0700, J Burns wrote:

Stormin Mormon soaked rusty pliers in HCl. Rbowman recommended
phosphoric acid, sold to etch concrete. That reminded me of naval
jelly. I knew it contained phosphoric acid. It also contains a gel
and rubbing alcohol. I wonder what the rubbing alcohol does.


the alcohol dissolves any water, as in dehydrates, dries. You can use it
to rinse a wet item and speed the drying time.

Naval jelly must contain water to make the acid work, but I think you're
onto something.

I sometimes use rubbing alcohol to get water out of my ears or off a
circuit board. It lowers the surface tension so the water flows away.
By lowering the surface tension of naval jelly, rubbing alcohol would
help it penetrate rust. Drying agent, wetting agent... same thing!

So if I were going to use phosphoric acid on deep rust, it might help to
mix in some rubbing alcohol!

"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 7:58 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message


Marv Klotz described it. He has a machine shop. He has tried HCl
but
says he won't have it in his shop now. He says if you keep the item
submerged, the vinegar/salt solution won't attack the base metal.

That's a matter of degree. Try vinegar/salt with some old copper
pennies first, then steel. The steel will wind up copper plated
because
of the copper that was dissolved.

How long should I soak the penny? I guess the bath would be opaque with
dissolved copper.

Long enough for them to get shiny. The dissolved copper will be in ionic
form, can't see it.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Fri, 26 Sep 2014 20:14:48 -0400, J Burns
wrote:

Stormin Mormon soaked rusty pliers in HCl.

Have you thought about an electrolysis tub? I can find you the Youtube
video if need be. My example of a cast iron fix.

http://oi33.tinypic.com/rmnwo5.jpg

Easy to build the tub with stuff in the garage and a visit to Wally
Mart

On 9/27/14, 5:33 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 7:58 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message


Marv Klotz described it. He has a machine shop. He has tried HCl
but
says he won't have it in his shop now. He says if you keep the item
submerged, the vinegar/salt solution won't attack the base metal.

That's a matter of degree. Try vinegar/salt with some old copper
pennies first, then steel. The steel will wind up copper plated
because
of the copper that was dissolved.

How long should I soak the penny? I guess the bath would be opaque with
dissolved copper.

Long enough for them to get shiny. The dissolved copper will be in
ionic form, can't see it.

Aren't copper ions blue?

This afternoon, I shined up 2 pennies, 2 dimes, and a quarter, all in an
ounce or so of salty vinegar. The appearance of the vinegar stayed the
same. I didn't see any copper from the edges of the dimes and quarter,
deposited on the faces.

On 9/27/14, 5:52 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 26 Sep 2014 20:14:48 -0400, J Burns
wrote:

Stormin Mormon soaked rusty pliers in HCl.

Have you thought about an electrolysis tub? I can find you the Youtube
video if need be. My example of a cast iron fix.

http://oi33.tinypic.com/rmnwo5.jpg

Easy to build the tub with stuff in the garage and a visit to Wally
Mart

I want to try it. I saw a youtube video about it: 1 minute of
information in 20 minutes of video.

On Sat, 27 Sep 2014 19:09:41 -0400, J Burns
wrote:

http://oi33.tinypic.com/rmnwo5.jpg

Easy to build the tub with stuff in the garage and a visit to Wally
Mart

I want to try it. I saw a youtube video about it: 1 minute of
information in 20 minutes of video.

Was it boring to you? Nothing to learn or what? We could get into
carbon anodes - those are better than re-bar.
--

"If you've had an erection lasting four or more hours... congratulations"

"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 5:33 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 7:58 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message


Marv Klotz described it. He has a machine shop. He has tried
HCl
but
says he won't have it in his shop now. He says if you keep the
item submerged, the vinegar/salt solution won't attack the base
metal.

That's a matter of degree. Try vinegar/salt with some old copper
pennies first, then steel. The steel will wind up copper plated
because of the copper that was dissolved.

How long should I soak the penny? I guess the bath would be opaque
with dissolved copper.

Long enough for them to get shiny. The dissolved copper will be in
ionic form, can't see it.

Aren't copper ions blue?

This afternoon, I shined up 2 pennies, 2 dimes, and a quarter, all in an
ounce or so of salty vinegar. The appearance of the vinegar stayed the
same. I didn't see any copper from the edges of the dimes and quarter,
deposited on the faces.

Steel. Use steel.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 9/27/14, 7:26 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 27 Sep 2014 19:09:41 -0400, J Burns
wrote:

http://oi33.tinypic.com/rmnwo5.jpg

Easy to build the tub with stuff in the garage and a visit to Wally
Mart

I want to try it. I saw a youtube video about it: 1 minute of
information in 20 minutes of video.

Was it boring to you? Nothing to learn or what? We could get into
carbon anodes - those are better than re-bar.

There wasn't much information. He said his battery charger was a POS.
That was beside the point. I didn't see any ammeter deflection, and it
seems he hadn't measured the current.

He was doing an adjustable wrench he'd found. After shooting some video
of him waiting by the bucket, he decided to add a hatchet. He was
concerned that there might not be continuity between the handle and the
head, but he didn't test. He was concerned about shorting, but he
didn't unplug the charger. His efforts to hang the hatchet without
shorting seemed to take forever, all recorded.

When he removed the wrench, he discovered that it had been discarded
because it was cracked. Filming the crack while describing his
disappointment seemed to take a couple of minutes more. If I read that
youtube pays posters by the minute, I won't be surprised.

I did something like that to remove tarnish from silverwa a silver
item on aluminum foil in hot water with washing soda dissolved, in a
plastic bowl. I didn't need a power source because the two metals formed
a battery.

On Fri, 26 Sep 2014 17:40:37 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I use Evapo-Rust:

http://www.evapo-rust.com/

Works great and can be reused dozens of times. Available on the shelves at O-Reilly Auto Parts and Harbor Freight.

My experience with it was that it's almost worthless.

On 9/27/14, 7:50 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 5:33 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 7:58 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message


Marv Klotz described it. He has a machine shop. He has tried
HCl
but
says he won't have it in his shop now. He says if you keep the
item submerged, the vinegar/salt solution won't attack the base
metal.

That's a matter of degree. Try vinegar/salt with some old copper
pennies first, then steel. The steel will wind up copper plated
because of the copper that was dissolved.

How long should I soak the penny? I guess the bath would be opaque
with dissolved copper.

Long enough for them to get shiny. The dissolved copper will be in
ionic form, can't see it.

Aren't copper ions blue?

This afternoon, I shined up 2 pennies, 2 dimes, and a quarter, all in an
ounce or so of salty vinegar. The appearance of the vinegar stayed the
same. I didn't see any copper from the edges of the dimes and quarter,
deposited on the faces.

Steel. Use steel.

You want me to use a 1943 penny?

No, copper sulfate is blue. The acid rain that falls on the copper roofs of cathedrals in Europe causes the copper roof to react with the sulfur in the rain to produce copper sulfate, and hence the blue-ish green-ish roofs. Sulphur is a common impurity in coal, and when coal is burned the sulphur in the smoke reacts with water vapour in the air to form sulfuric acid, or "acid rain".

If you dissolve copper sulfate in water, so that you have copper ions and sulfate ions, I really don't know what colour that solution would be, but my guess would be that it would be a light blue. That's because in a solution like that, most of the copper sulfate will dissociate into ions, but there is always going to be some reassociation in the water to form copper sulfate from the abundance of copper and sulfate ions present. That is, there is going to be an equilibrium formed where ions combine to form copper sulfate in the water and then disassociate to form ions again. What little copper sulfate exists in the water will cause a blue-ish tint.

On 9/27/14, 7:50 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 5:33 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 7:58 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message


Marv Klotz described it. He has a machine shop. He has tried
HCl
but
says he won't have it in his shop now. He says if you keep the
item submerged, the vinegar/salt solution won't attack the base
metal.

That's a matter of degree. Try vinegar/salt with some old copper
pennies first, then steel. The steel will wind up copper plated
because of the copper that was dissolved.

How long should I soak the penny? I guess the bath would be opaque
with dissolved copper.

Long enough for them to get shiny. The dissolved copper will be in
ionic form, can't see it.

Aren't copper ions blue?

This afternoon, I shined up 2 pennies, 2 dimes, and a quarter, all in an
ounce or so of salty vinegar. The appearance of the vinegar stayed the
same. I didn't see any copper from the edges of the dimes and quarter,
deposited on the faces.

Steel. Use steel.

I looked for a steel item that I was sure wasn't plated. I tried a
rusty screw with a penny. I got bubbles, a black, water-soluble deposit
on the penny, and copper on the screw.

On 9/27/14, 9:33 PM, nestork wrote:
Aren't copper ions blue?


No, copper sulfate is blue. The acid rain that falls on the copper
roofs of cathedrals in Europe causes the copper roof to react with the
sulfur in the rain to produce copper sulfate, and hence the blue-ish
green-ish roofs. Sulphur is a common impurity in coal, and when coal is
burned the sulphur in the smoke reacts with water vapour in the air to
form sulfuric acid, or "acid rain".

If you dissolve copper sulfate in water, so that you have copper ions
and sulfate ions, I really don't know what colour that solution would
be, but my guess would be that it would be a light blue. That's because
in a solution like that, most of the copper sulfate will dissociate into
ions, but there is always going to be some reassociation in the water to
form copper sulfate from the abundance of copper and sulfate ions
present. That is, there is going to be an equilibrium formed where ions
combine to form copper sulfate in the water and then disassociate to
form ions again. What little copper sulfate exists in the water will
cause a blue-ish tint.


Copper sulfate is a white powder. Magnesium sulfate is a white powder.

Water with dissolved magnesium sulfate is clear. Water with dissolved
copper sulfate is blue. The blue must be the copper ions.

"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 7:50 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 5:33 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 7:58 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message


Marv Klotz described it. He has a machine shop. He has
tried
HCl
but
says he won't have it in his shop now. He says if you keep
the
item submerged, the vinegar/salt solution won't attack the
base metal.

That's a matter of degree. Try vinegar/salt with some old
copper pennies first, then steel. The steel will wind up
copper plated because of the copper that was dissolved.

How long should I soak the penny? I guess the bath would be
opaque with dissolved copper.

Long enough for them to get shiny. The dissolved copper will be
in
ionic form, can't see it.

Aren't copper ions blue?

This afternoon, I shined up 2 pennies, 2 dimes, and a quarter, all
in
an ounce or so of salty vinegar. The appearance of the vinegar
stayed the same. I didn't see any copper from the edges of the
dimes
and quarter, deposited on the faces.

Steel. Use steel.

I looked for a steel item that I was sure wasn't plated. I tried a
rusty screw with a penny. I got bubbles, a black, water-soluble deposit
on the penny, and copper on the screw.

Right. The acid - even though weak - dissolved some copper. Those copper
ions are positive. The acid also dissolved some iron; those ions are also
positive leaving the screw negative. The copper ions are more strongly
attracted to the screw than are the iron ions. The bubbles were hydrogen
gas. The black would be an iron salt.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 09/27/2014 10:44 PM, J Burns wrote:

Aren't copper ions blue?


No, copper sulfate is blue. The acid rain that falls on the copper
roofs of cathedrals in Europe causes the copper roof to react with the
sulfur in the rain to produce copper sulfate, and hence the blue-ish
green-ish roofs. Sulphur is a common impurity in coal, and when coal is
burned the sulphur in the smoke reacts with water vapour in the air to
form sulfuric acid, or "acid rain".

If you dissolve copper sulfate in water, so that you have copper ions
and sulfate ions, I really don't know what colour that solution would
be, but my guess would be that it would be a light blue. That's because
in a solution like that, most of the copper sulfate will dissociate into
ions, but there is always going to be some reassociation in the water to
form copper sulfate from the abundance of copper and sulfate ions
present. That is, there is going to be an equilibrium formed where ions
combine to form copper sulfate in the water and then disassociate to
form ions again. What little copper sulfate exists in the water will
cause a blue-ish tint.


Copper sulfate is a white powder. Magnesium sulfate is a white powder.

Water with dissolved magnesium sulfate is clear. Water with dissolved
copper sulfate is blue. The blue must be the copper ions.

Anhydrous coppers sulfate may well be a white powder, but the only form
in which I've ever seen copper sulfate (other than a solution of it) is
as the blue crystals that contain a significant amount of water.

Perce

No, it's blue.
Hebei Runxuan Chemicals Imp&Exp Trading Co,. Ltd

No, colour arises from the interaction between light and the electrons of atoms and molecules. Light hitting copper sulfate crystals is going to behave differently than light hitting copper metal or light hitting copper ions, which is why copper metal ISN'T blue in colour.

The only way to know what colour dissolved copper sulfate would be would be by experiment. However, as I said in my last post, in a solution of copper sulfate in water, MOST of the copper sulfate will dissociate into ions, but there will always be copper sulfate molecules forming inside the water which, if anything, would give the water a blue-ish tint. It's just a guess, but it's my best guess.

On 9/28/14, 7:23 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 7:50 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 5:33 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 7:58 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message


Marv Klotz described it. He has a machine shop. He has
tried
HCl
but
says he won't have it in his shop now. He says if you keep
the
item submerged, the vinegar/salt solution won't attack the
base metal.

That's a matter of degree. Try vinegar/salt with some old
copper pennies first, then steel. The steel will wind up
copper plated because of the copper that was dissolved.

How long should I soak the penny? I guess the bath would be
opaque with dissolved copper.

Long enough for them to get shiny. The dissolved copper will be
in
ionic form, can't see it.

Aren't copper ions blue?

This afternoon, I shined up 2 pennies, 2 dimes, and a quarter, all
in
an ounce or so of salty vinegar. The appearance of the vinegar
stayed the same. I didn't see any copper from the edges of the
dimes
and quarter, deposited on the faces.

Steel. Use steel.

I looked for a steel item that I was sure wasn't plated. I tried a
rusty screw with a penny. I got bubbles, a black, water-soluble deposit
on the penny, and copper on the screw.

Right. The acid - even though weak - dissolved some copper. Those
copper ions are positive. The acid also dissolved some iron; those ions
are also positive leaving the screw negative. The copper ions are more
strongly attracted to the screw than are the iron ions. The bubbles
were hydrogen gas. The black would be an iron salt.

I wonder why the bath wasn't blue. Maybe there was very little copper
in it at any time, or maybe it was in some form besides CU++ ions.

I imagine the bubbles were both hydrogen and oxygen. Otherwise,
oxidized metal would have accumulated.

"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/28/14, 7:23 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 7:50 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 5:33 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/27/14, 7:58 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message


Marv Klotz described it. He has a machine shop. He has
tried HCl
but
says he won't have it in his shop now. He says if you
keep
the
item submerged, the vinegar/salt solution won't attack
the
base metal.

That's a matter of degree. Try vinegar/salt with some old
copper pennies first, then steel. The steel will wind up
copper plated because of the copper that was dissolved.

How long should I soak the penny? I guess the bath would be
opaque with dissolved copper.

Long enough for them to get shiny. The dissolved copper will
be
in
ionic form, can't see it.

Aren't copper ions blue?

This afternoon, I shined up 2 pennies, 2 dimes, and a quarter,
all
in
an ounce or so of salty vinegar. The appearance of the vinegar
stayed the same. I didn't see any copper from the edges of the

dimes and quarter, deposited on the faces.

Steel. Use steel.

I looked for a steel item that I was sure wasn't plated. I tried a
rusty screw with a penny. I got bubbles, a black, water-soluble
deposit on the penny, and copper on the screw.

Right. The acid - even though weak - dissolved some copper. Those
copper ions are positive. The acid also dissolved some iron; those
ions
are also positive leaving the screw negative. The copper ions are
more
strongly attracted to the screw than are the iron ions. The bubbles
were hydrogen gas. The black would be an iron salt.

I wonder why the bath wasn't blue. Maybe there was very little copper
in it at any time, or maybe it was in some form besides CU++ ions.

Perhaps it would be if there were more? If a copper compound it could be
blue or green, Copper when burned can produce a flame that is green
(usual), blue, red or colorless depending upon temperature and whether the
flame is anoxidizing or reducing one.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 9/29/14, 6:09 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message


I looked for a steel item that I was sure wasn't plated. I
tried a rusty screw with a penny. I got bubbles, a black,
water-soluble deposit on the penny, and copper on the screw.

Right. The acid - even though weak - dissolved some copper.
Those copper ions are positive. The acid also dissolved some
iron; those ions are also positive leaving the screw negative.
The copper ions are
more
strongly attracted to the screw than are the iron ions. The
bubbles were hydrogen gas. The black would be an iron salt.

I wonder why the bath wasn't blue. Maybe there was very little
copper in it at any time, or maybe it was in some form besides CU++
ions.

Perhaps it would be if there were more? If a copper compound it
could be blue or green, Copper when burned can produce a flame that
is green (usual), blue, red or colorless depending upon temperature
and whether the flame is anoxidizing or reducing one.

I've read that you can put pennies in a vinegar-salt bath, remove them,
put in an iron item, and pull it out plated. I'll believe that when I
see it!

I wonder if my copper-plated screw is now rustproof.

"J Burns" wrote in message

On 9/29/14, 6:09 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message


I looked for a steel item that I was sure wasn't plated. I
tried a rusty screw with a penny. I got bubbles, a black,
water-soluble deposit on the penny, and copper on the screw.

Right. The acid - even though weak - dissolved some copper.
Those copper ions are positive. The acid also dissolved some
iron; those ions are also positive leaving the screw negative.
The copper ions are
more
strongly attracted to the screw than are the iron ions. The
bubbles were hydrogen gas. The black would be an iron salt.

I wonder why the bath wasn't blue. Maybe there was very little
copper in it at any time, or maybe it was in some form besides CU++
ions.

Perhaps it would be if there were more? If a copper compound it
could be blue or green, Copper when burned can produce a flame that
is green (usual), blue, red or colorless depending upon temperature
and whether the flame is anoxidizing or reducing one.

I've read that you can put pennies in a vinegar-salt bath, remove them,
put in an iron item, and pull it out plated. I'll believe that when I
see it!

??? You just did. Separate times for copper and steel is no different
than the two simultaneously.

I wonder if my copper-plated screw is now rustproof.

Yes until the exceedingly thin layer of copper is breached.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net