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#1
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Help- rotted out wood at base of door jam problem
On 7/14/2014 1:55 PM, dpb wrote:
On 07/14/2014 2:16 PM, DaveT wrote: ... Where the qwikcrete touches wood, what prep should be done to the wood? ... Clean and prime. -- OK - I cleaned out all the rot wood, replaced it with treated deck wood that presumably won't rot. I raised the base of the treated wood about an inch higher than the wood went before. I used exterior primer on all exposed wood, then I used regular qwikcrete to fill in the existing hole and vertically fill in all open wood space (the base of the treated wood now lies on about a 1 inch buildup of qwikcrete - that should stop much wicking). The photo shows how things look now. My question is: what to do next? I'm not going to put in any plain trim and have it rot out again. Should I encase the whole area using deckwood? Lay on more qwikcrete vertically up to where the base of the wood trim is now and try to make it look ok? Or use some flashing to somehow cover the thing up? I welcome any sensible ideas. Thanks to everybody for all the help so far. https://www.flickr.com/photos/126231...n/photostream/ |
#2
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Help- rotted out wood at base of door jam problem
On 07/16/2014 1:44 PM, DaveT wrote:
.... OK - I cleaned out all the rot wood, replaced it with treated deck wood that presumably won't rot. I raised the base of the treated wood about an inch higher than the wood went before. I used exterior primer on all exposed wood, then I used regular qwikcrete to fill in the existing hole and vertically fill in all open wood space (the base of the treated wood now lies on about a 1 inch buildup of qwikcrete - that should stop much wicking). The photo shows how things look now. My question is: what to do next? I'm not going to put in any plain trim and have it rot out again. Should I encase the whole area using deckwood? Lay on more qwikcrete vertically up to where the base of the wood trim is now and try to make it look ok? Or use some flashing to somehow cover the thing up? I welcome any sensible ideas. Thanks to everybody for all the help so far. https://www.flickr.com/photos/126231...n/photostream/ Hmmmm....I can't tell for sure what I'm looking at and the shape of the fill in that is the dark area. What I had in mind with the concrete buildup was to form it out a half-inch or so at least in each direction beyond the dimensions of the brick mould so it became the new base but having the recess such that the fill in to that or a replacement piece would fit in as the existing. Looks to me like you've kinda' rounded over that where you're not going to be able to put in a piece of moulding now? I still think you have a basically insurmountable problem with that being a well at the sill level -- what does the rest of the area around it look like and where's the overall drainage? I'd still think the real longterm fix would include raising that sill at least a little above the rest of the grade. I'd like some more explanation and a little more of an overview from now before further more detailed explanations if possible. -- |
#3
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Help- rotted out wood at base of door jam problem
On 7/16/2014 2:11 PM, dpb wrote:
On 07/16/2014 1:44 PM, DaveT wrote: ... OK - I cleaned out all the rot wood, replaced it with treated deck wood that presumably won't rot. I raised the base of the treated wood about an inch higher than the wood went before. I used exterior primer on all exposed wood, then I used regular qwikcrete to fill in the existing hole and vertically fill in all open wood space (the base of the treated wood now lies on about a 1 inch buildup of qwikcrete - that should stop much wicking). The photo shows how things look now. My question is: what to do next? I'm not going to put in any plain trim and have it rot out again. Should I encase the whole area using deckwood? Lay on more qwikcrete vertically up to where the base of the wood trim is now and try to make it look ok? Or use some flashing to somehow cover the thing up? I welcome any sensible ideas. Thanks to everybody for all the help so far. https://www.flickr.com/photos/126231...n/photostream/ Hmmmm....I can't tell for sure what I'm looking at and the shape of the fill in that is the dark area. What I had in mind with the concrete buildup was to form it out a half-inch or so at least in each direction beyond the dimensions of the brick mould so it became the new base but having the recess such that the fill in to that or a replacement piece would fit in as the existing. Looks to me like you've kinda' rounded over that where you're not going to be able to put in a piece of moulding now? I still think you have a basically insurmountable problem with that being a well at the sill level -- what does the rest of the area around it look like and where's the overall drainage? I'd still think the real longterm fix would include raising that sill at least a little above the rest of the grade. I'd like some more explanation and a little more of an overview from now before further more detailed explanations if possible. It's not a well. During heavy rains with wind there was area below the rot wood that was allowing water to get in accumulate before it could drain, and wick up into the wood. It wasn't apparent until I pulled things apart a few days ago. No water has ever been able to go over the sill. Adjacent to the door is a 3x3 ft concrete slab with a low drainage slant which runs into a pit I dug out a long time ago, with a grating over it. I think this is going to solve it and I don't want to go the route of building up a sill and cutting the door to size and finding out that I'll need a new custom cut door..... etc. The door is standard metal with some kind of foam interior and I doubt there's any easy way of modifying it. If this doesn't work, I would agree with you that the next step is a raised sill, but I don't want to go there, yet. -- |
#4
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Help- rotted out wood at base of door jam problem
On 07/16/2014 3:40 PM, DaveT wrote:
On 7/16/2014 2:11 PM, dpb wrote: On 07/16/2014 1:44 PM, DaveT wrote: ... OK - I cleaned out all the rot wood, replaced it with treated deck wood that presumably won't rot. I raised the base of the treated wood about an inch higher than the wood went before. I used exterior primer on all exposed wood, then I used regular qwikcrete to fill in the existing hole and vertically fill in all open wood space (the base of the treated wood now lies on about a 1 inch buildup of qwikcrete - that should stop much wicking). The photo shows how things look now. My question is: what to do next? I'm not going to put in any plain trim and have it rot out again. Should I encase the whole area using deckwood? Lay on more qwikcrete vertically up to where the base of the wood trim is now and try to make it look ok? Or use some flashing to somehow cover the thing up? I welcome any sensible ideas. Thanks to everybody for all the help so far. https://www.flickr.com/photos/126231...n/photostream/ Hmmmm....I can't tell for sure what I'm looking at and the shape of the fill in that is the dark area. What I had in mind with the concrete buildup was to form it out a half-inch or so at least in each direction beyond the dimensions of the brick mould so it became the new base but having the recess such that the fill in to that or a replacement piece would fit in as the existing. Looks to me like you've kinda' rounded over that where you're not going to be able to put in a piece of moulding now? I still think you have a basically insurmountable problem with that being a well at the sill level -- what does the rest of the area around it look like and where's the overall drainage? I'd still think the real longterm fix would include raising that sill at least a little above the rest of the grade. I'd like some more explanation and a little more of an overview from now before further more detailed explanations if possible. It's not a well. During heavy rains with wind there was area below the rot wood that was allowing water to get in accumulate before it could drain, and wick up into the wood. It wasn't apparent until I pulled things apart a few days ago. No water has ever been able to go over the sill. Adjacent to the door is a 3x3 ft concrete slab with a low drainage slant which runs into a pit I dug out a long time ago, with a grating over it. I think this is going to solve it and I don't want to go the route of building up a sill and cutting the door to size and finding out that I'll need a new custom cut door..... etc. The door is standard metal with some kind of foam interior and I doubt there's any easy way of modifying it. If this doesn't work, I would agree with you that the next step is a raised sill, but I don't want to go there, yet. .... It'll certainly help but the door looks in pretty bad shape as well as near as I can tell. It's not so much that the water runs over the sill as that it collects and tends to retain water along the sill in all the crevices and crannies and it undoubtedly runs w/ capillary action under it and to the ends to get into the ends of the jambs and wall sections to greater or lesser degree. That there was the hole where the brick mould ran below the grade before is obviously going to have been a major problem and I agree you'll have helped that part out significantly. I agree w/ the geometry DadiOH suggests; it's the same as did I. I won't argue any further with him over it but Bondo is simply not the right product for this job. The only other lesser disagreement I have with his advice is that it is counter-productive to caulk that seam at the bottom of the brick mould meeting the base; it's the same idea as the purpose of weep holes in masonry or not caulking the bottom of siding laps--any moisture that _does_ get in there needs a way to get out; if it has no way out then it becomes a dam on the wrong side. I'm guessing part of the problem in this area is also that it is shaded a fair amount of the time? -- |
#5
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Help- rotted out wood at base of door jam problem
"dpb" wrote in message
The only other lesser disagreement I have with his advice is that it is counter-productive to caulk that seam at the bottom of the brick mould meeting the base; I could live with that. In fact, I DID live with that. I built four French screen doors a few years ago to enclose an open lanai. I left an uncaulked 1/4" gap at the bottom of the jambs. Do you have any idea how many different types of critters can get through a 1/4" gap??? The cats liked the gap, wife didn't, no more gap OP wouldn't have a critter problem in the house if he left a gap uncaulked so propably better that he does. I might still partially close it with a piece of backer rod, though, just to keep critters from taking up residence within the gap itself. That's what I did on my lanai. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
#6
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Help- rotted out wood at base of door jam problem
On 07/17/2014 6:47 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message The only other lesser disagreement I have with his advice is that it is counter-productive to caulk that seam at the bottom of the brick mould meeting the base; I could live with that. In fact, I DID live with that. I built four French screen doors a few years ago to enclose an open lanai. I left an uncaulked 1/4" gap at the bottom of the jambs. ... I wouldn't leave anything approaching a 1/4" gap... -- |
#7
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Help- rotted out wood at base of door jam problem
I built four French screen doors a few years ago to enclose an open
lanai. I left an uncaulked 1/4" gap at the bottom of the jambs. Do you have any idea how many different types of critters can get through a 1/4" gap??? The cats liked the gap, wife didn't, no more gap As DPB mentioned, you should always leave a gap at the bottom for moisture to escape. However, 1/4" is a huge gap, the gap should be 1/16" or so. Enough for moisture to get out, but not enough for bugs to get in. Anthony Watson www.mountainsoftware.com www.watsondiy.com |
#8
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Help- rotted out wood at base of door jam problem
On 7/16/2014 6:12 PM, dpb wrote:
On 07/16/2014 3:40 PM, DaveT wrote: On 7/16/2014 2:11 PM, dpb wrote: On 07/16/2014 1:44 PM, DaveT wrote: ... OK - I cleaned out all the rot wood, replaced it with treated deck wood that presumably won't rot. I raised the base of the treated wood about an inch higher than the wood went before. I used exterior primer on all exposed wood, then I used regular qwikcrete to fill in the existing hole and vertically fill in all open wood space (the base of the treated wood now lies on about a 1 inch buildup of qwikcrete - that should stop much wicking). The photo shows how things look now. My question is: what to do next? I'm not going to put in any plain trim and have it rot out again. Should I encase the whole area using deckwood? Lay on more qwikcrete vertically up to where the base of the wood trim is now and try to make it look ok? Or use some flashing to somehow cover the thing up? I welcome any sensible ideas. Thanks to everybody for all the help so far. https://www.flickr.com/photos/126231...n/photostream/ Hmmmm....I can't tell for sure what I'm looking at and the shape of the fill in that is the dark area. What I had in mind with the concrete buildup was to form it out a half-inch or so at least in each direction beyond the dimensions of the brick mould so it became the new base but having the recess such that the fill in to that or a replacement piece would fit in as the existing. Looks to me like you've kinda' rounded over that where you're not going to be able to put in a piece of moulding now? I still think you have a basically insurmountable problem with that being a well at the sill level -- what does the rest of the area around it look like and where's the overall drainage? I'd still think the real longterm fix would include raising that sill at least a little above the rest of the grade. I'd like some more explanation and a little more of an overview from now before further more detailed explanations if possible. It's not a well. During heavy rains with wind there was area below the rot wood that was allowing water to get in accumulate before it could drain, and wick up into the wood. It wasn't apparent until I pulled things apart a few days ago. No water has ever been able to go over the sill. Adjacent to the door is a 3x3 ft concrete slab with a low drainage slant which runs into a pit I dug out a long time ago, with a grating over it. I think this is going to solve it and I don't want to go the route of building up a sill and cutting the door to size and finding out that I'll need a new custom cut door..... etc. The door is standard metal with some kind of foam interior and I doubt there's any easy way of modifying it. If this doesn't work, I would agree with you that the next step is a raised sill, but I don't want to go there, yet. ... It'll certainly help but the door looks in pretty bad shape as well as near as I can tell. It's not so much that the water runs over the sill as that it collects and tends to retain water along the sill in all the crevices and crannies and it undoubtedly runs w/ capillary action under it and to the ends to get into the ends of the jambs and wall sections to greater or lesser degree. That there was the hole where the brick mould ran below the grade before is obviously going to have been a major problem and I agree you'll have helped that part out significantly. I agree w/ the geometry DadiOH suggests; it's the same as did I. I won't argue any further with him over it but Bondo is simply not the right product for this job. The only other lesser disagreement I have with his advice is that it is counter-productive to caulk that seam at the bottom of the brick mould meeting the base; it's the same idea as the purpose of weep holes in masonry or not caulking the bottom of siding laps--any moisture that _does_ get in there needs a way to get out; if it has no way out then it becomes a dam on the wrong side. I'm guessing part of the problem in this area is also that it is shaded a fair amount of the time? It's north facing. It gets sun in the am, it's in the shade in the pm, but it's wind driven rain and snow pile up that's the real problem. I'm probably going to fill out the remaining void with qwikrete. The wood is already primered, does there need to be visqueen or something like that between the wood and qwikrete? |
#9
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Help- rotted out wood at base of door jam problem
On 07/17/2014 8:49 AM, DaveT wrote:
.... I'm probably going to fill out the remaining void with qwikrete. The wood is already primered, does there need to be visqueen or something like that between the wood and qwikrete? .... I probably wouldn't bother, but it couldn't hurt I think... -- |
#10
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Help- rotted out wood at base of door jam problem
Dave,
https://www.flickr.com/photos/126231...n/photostream/ I cleaned out all the rot wood, replaced it with treated deck wood that presumably won't rot. Treated wood will still rot, it just takes longer. There are also different ratings for pressure treated lumber. Typical deck lumber has less protection than wood labeled "safe for ground contact". Usually the better ground contact lumber has a series of holes where the chemicals are forced deep into the wood. Also, pressure treatment usually doesn't penetrate that far into the wood. If you cut the board, the center section is usually untreated wood that would need to be painted with preservatives to minimize rot. the base of the treated wood now lies on about a 1 inch buildup of qwikcrete - that should stop much wicking. Unfortunately, concrete does not stop moisture. That's why plastic vapor barriers are placed under concrete slabs. Without some kind of barrier between the concrete and wood, you can potentially still get wicking. Granted, the PT lumber will probably last longer. what to do next? I'm not going to put in any plain trim and have it rot out again. If you're going to continue with the patch job, I would pick up some PVC or composite lumber to use for the trim. It's basically plastic, so it can't rot. It mills and paints just like wood. I agree with DPB though, the door is installed incorrectly. The door sill is sitting below the level of the walkway outside. You may be able seal it off temporarily, but at some point water is going to find it's way under the door sill (there is usually wood under that metal covering on the door sill). It would be smart to either raise the door frame, or lower the sidewalk. I'm betting it would be easier to raise the door frame. As I mentioned previously, you would be better off to order a new composite door frame and stop messing around with patches that may or may not last. I replaced my door frames in about 2-3 hours each. Remove the door from the hinges, remove any interior trim, cut the exterior caulking with a knife, cut the nails with a reciprocating saw, and pop out the old frame. Then it's a simple job to install the new frame. Best wishes with your repair! Anthony Watson www.mountainsoftware.com www.watsondiy.com |
#11
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Help- rotted out wood at base of door jam problem
On 7/16/2014 3:08 PM, HerHusband wrote:
Dave, https://www.flickr.com/photos/126231...n/photostream/ I cleaned out all the rot wood, replaced it with treated deck wood that presumably won't rot. Treated wood will still rot, it just takes longer. There are also different ratings for pressure treated lumber. Typical deck lumber has less protection than wood labeled "safe for ground contact". Usually the better ground contact lumber has a series of holes where the chemicals are forced deep into the wood. Also, pressure treatment usually doesn't penetrate that far into the wood. If you cut the board, the center section is usually untreated wood that would need to be painted with preservatives to minimize rot. the base of the treated wood now lies on about a 1 inch buildup of qwikcrete - that should stop much wicking. Unfortunately, concrete does not stop moisture. That's why plastic vapor barriers are placed under concrete slabs. Without some kind of barrier between the concrete and wood, you can potentially still get wicking. Granted, the PT lumber will probably last longer. what to do next? I'm not going to put in any plain trim and have it rot out again. If you're going to continue with the patch job, I would pick up some PVC or composite lumber to use for the trim. It's basically plastic, so it can't rot. It mills and paints just like wood. I agree with DPB though, the door is installed incorrectly. The door sill is sitting below the level of the walkway outside. You may be able seal it off temporarily, but at some point water is going to find it's way under the door sill (there is usually wood under that metal covering on the door sill). It would be smart to either raise the door frame, or lower the sidewalk. I'm betting it would be easier to raise the door frame. As I mentioned previously, you would be better off to order a new composite door frame and stop messing around with patches that may or may not last. I replaced my door frames in about 2-3 hours each. Remove the door from the hinges, remove any interior trim, cut the exterior caulking with a knife, cut the nails with a reciprocating saw, and pop out the old frame. Then it's a simple job to install the new frame. Best wishes with your repair! Anthony Watson www.mountainsoftware.com www.watsondiy.com Over 11 years, the problem only resulted in about 8 inches of rot on untreated wood, on only one side of the door frame (the other is in good shape), beneath which a small hole used to exist that allowed accumulation of water and wicking. I've got only 3 hrs of work and $22 spent on this, so far, and I'm just not seeing the need to tear out the old frame. "dpb" thinks I should raise the sill, and there's some water control logic in that, but then you create a trip hazard unless you do a ramp on either side, and you need a new door. If it turns out that what I've done creates more problems down the line, I'll own up to it by posting the situation. We'll see. Thanks |
#12
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Help- rotted out wood at base of door jam problem
Dave,
Over 11 years, the problem only resulted in about 8 inches of rot on untreated wood, on only one side of the door frame (the other is in good shape), beneath which a small hole used to exist that allowed accumulation of water and wicking. You had better luck than me. The entry door on our garage, and the back door of our house both rotted out at the bottom within 5-6 years. The front door at my in-laws is also rotting out about 5 years after we installed it. In all three cases, the doors were exposed to the weather with no significant roof overhang. The rot always seems to be worse on the latch side of the door frame. I think that's because the gap around the door is slightly wider there, so it's easier for water to get in. I've got only 3 hrs of work and $22 spent on this, so far, and I'm just not seeing the need to tear out the old frame. I sincerely hope your repair works for you. When I replaced my door frame, I discovered more rot to the structure beneath the frame. Thankfully, I caught it in time so the damage was very minor, but I wouldn't have seen it unless I took the frame out. Before I installed the new door frame, I install a jamsill flashing in the rough opening. This time around I assumed water WILL get past the door frame, so this ensures it gets directed outside the structure. "dpb" thinks I should raise the sill, and there's some water control logic in that, but then you create a trip hazard unless you do a ramp on either side, and you need a new door. I recommend raising the entire door frame, not just the sill. You can reuse the door if you take careful measurements of the hinges and whatnot when you order a new frame. That's what I did with our doors and it worked great. I raised our garage door up about 3 inches, mostly because I need to raise my sidewalk for better drainage. I knew the header above the door was way oversized (double 2x10s for the 3 foot opening), so I simply cut a couple inches from the bottom of the header. Then I poured a small concrete base to raise the bottom of the frame up a few inches. Yes, raising the door will create a small trip hazard, but virtually all homes have a sill you have to step up and over. At the same time, that prevents any water buildup from just running over the top of the door sill. If it turns out that what I've done creates more problems down the line, I'll own up to it by posting the situation. Please keep us posted on how it turns out. I would love to see a picture of your final repair when you get it done. Take care, Anthony Watson www.mountainsoftware.com www.watsondiy.com |
#13
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Help- rotted out wood at base of door jam problem
On 07/17/2014 10:20 AM, HerHusband wrote:
.... "dpb" thinks I should raise the sill, and there's some water control logic in that, but then you create a trip hazard unless you do a ramp on either side, and you need a new door. I recommend raising the entire door frame, not just the sill. ... That is still my primary recommendation; the sill alone was if there was some other requirement that prevented raising the header or if just wanted the minimal way out solution. One place where raising the door overall might be less attractive is if there are other architectural features in line with the top so that the mismatch in heights would not be pleasing in appearance. -- |
#14
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Help- rotted out wood at base of door jam problem
"DaveT" wrote in message
On 7/14/2014 1:55 PM, dpb wrote: On 07/14/2014 2:16 PM, DaveT wrote: OK - I cleaned out all the rot wood, replaced it with treated deck wood that presumably won't rot. I raised the base of the treated wood about an inch higher than the wood went before. I used exterior primer on all exposed wood, then I used regular qwikcrete to fill in the existing hole and vertically fill in all open wood space (the base of the treated wood now lies on about a 1 inch buildup of qwikcrete - that should stop much wicking). The photo shows how things look now. My question is: what to do next? I'm not going to put in any plain trim and have it rot out again. Should I encase the whole area using deckwood? Lay on more qwikcrete vertically up to where the base of the wood trim is now and try to make it look ok? Or use some flashing to somehow cover the thing up? I welcome any sensible ideas. It is hard to see what has been done in the photo with the shears. Based on the other photos, I would... 1. Fix the wood that has been cut off a few inches up. You could either replace the whole piece or scarf in a section. 2. Before the wood, I would make a dam at the bottom out of - guess what? - Bondo.I would make it the same depth and width as the new wood will be; I would slope it from the inside outward: a ramp. 3. On the bottom of the new wood I would also make a slope so that of the wood and Bondo are parallel. I would make the new wood about 1/4" shorter so that its ramp hangs over the one of Bondo. I would build the Bondo ramp up about 1/2-1: higher than the aluminum threshold. 4. I would apply copper napthanate to the entirety of the new wood (you can get it at HD, it is used for painting cut ends of PT lumber). When the copper napthanate is dry - it takes a while - I would prime and paint the new wood with oil paint, then install. 5. Finally, I would caulk the gap between the two ramps. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
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