(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Terry Coombs:
Battery power in the camper can give us light for many hours if we
put the refrigerator on gas .

Propane, right? Or do you have nat gas piped in?

Propane , we have no natgas out here in the woods . Not enough houses out
here to make it profitable .

--
Snag

Per JR Ewing:
Those clowns don't even know what a gas can is. They have a lawn service.

http://www.amazon.com/Eagle-U2-51-S-.../dp/B000BQO15I

A can that looked pretty much like that totally vindicated my practice
of never, ever, under any circumstances storing gasoline in the building
that I live in.

Had it in the garden shed. Opened up the shed one day to discover that
it had rusted from the inside out and dribbled it's contents across the
floor of the shed.

Supposedly the "Real Deal" NATO spec cans have a lining sprayed into
them that prevents that.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Mon, 26 May 2014 16:54:11 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

We'd have to have a propane tank or gasoline/diesel storage tank put in ,
no natgas out here in the weeds

propane is probably the better way to go, its useful for heating, cooking etc etc.

unlike natural gas its self contained to your property.....
And unlike gasoline it neither goes bad in storage nor ends up being
pilfered.

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
...
Per Terry Coombs:
I can adfford to be hot more than I can afford the fuel bill for runnin'
them .

Also, my experience during prolonged outages is that the gas stations'
power is out too.... making it difficult to procure gasoline if you do
not have enough stored.


Depending on the nature of the outage NG may be interrupted as well. We use
NG as primary with LPG as back up

On Monday, May 26, 2014 11:01:44 PM UTC-4, NotMe wrote:
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message

...

Per Terry Coombs:

I can adfford to be hot more than I can afford the fuel bill for runnin'

them .



Also, my experience during prolonged outages is that the gas stations'

power is out too.... making it difficult to procure gasoline if you do

not have enough stored.





Depending on the nature of the outage NG may be interrupted as well. We use

NG as primary with LPG as back up

I am 57 and have NEVER had a natural gas failure. Nearby residents did when a backhoe broke a water and a gas line. The water flooded the gas line, and made a real mess that took 2 weeks to make everything all right.

But in a grid down I wouldnt be surprised if natural gas quit working.....

On Tue, 27 May 2014 14:04:01 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Monday, May 26, 2014 11:01:44 PM UTC-4, NotMe wrote:
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message

...

Per Terry Coombs:

I can adfford to be hot more than I can afford the fuel bill for runnin'

them .



Also, my experience during prolonged outages is that the gas stations'

power is out too.... making it difficult to procure gasoline if you do

not have enough stored.





Depending on the nature of the outage NG may be interrupted as well. We use

NG as primary with LPG as back up

I am 57 and have NEVER had a natural gas failure. Nearby residents did when a backhoe broke a water and a gas line. The water flooded the gas line, and made a real mess that took 2 weeks to make everything all right.

But in a grid down I wouldnt be surprised if natural gas quit working.....
Why would it? All of the represurizing stations are gas powered, with
their own generators to run the required electrics. The massive east
coast blackout a number of years back, and the big ice storm that took
down power across Ont, Quebec and the eastern states didn't affect the
gas distribution system at all.

JR Ewing posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On 5/26/2014 3:55 PM, Frank wrote:

Just finished my biennial change of gasoline by putting old in the car and buying new and adding Stabil. Stabil says good for a year but I've
been getting two. It is a pain and I told my wife that the genius in the EPA that mandated spill proof cans should have use one once.

Those clowns don't even know what a gas can is. They have a lawn service.

http://www.amazon.com/Eagle-U2-51-S-.../dp/B000BQO15I

Could you fill it then have gift wrapped and sent to me?

--
Tekkie

bob haller posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

I am 57 and have NEVER had a natural gas failure.


My blowhole has been reliable.

--
Tekkie

Dave C posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On Sat, 24 May 2014 19:35:50 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:

On 5/24/2014 5:28 PM, Dave C wrote:
I live in an area (New England) where we have had extended AC power
interuptions. I just bought a back up, Generac 6500 watt generator.
Now awaiting the next hurricane, with a bit less trepidation !

I would appreciate any advice on how best to use the generator.
Obviously I could use the 4 generator AC plugs, providing a direct
extension cord feed to my key appliances. (The unit came with a 30
amp/ 4 plug "extension" cord.)

I have no idea how difficult it is to install a transfer switch (or
similar option). There i could energize specific circuits. If that is
the recommended option, any suggestions as to the install process.

I have a similar setup that I installed myself. My only regret is that
I didn't talk to somebody who had one/installed one YEARS ago. I'm a
very handy guy with electrical, home repair, remodeling but I just
figured "it had to be too difficult (especially based upon the location
of my 200amp panel in a finished wall.

Well, I did speak with somebody who installed one and immediately bought
a Pro Tran by Reliance, manual transfer panel.

Piece of cake. The only difficult task I had was running the 10ga
feeder from the external power plug (which connects to the backup
generator in its own enclosure about 20' from the house.

Once you have the generator feed line run to the transfer panel, all you
do is figure out which circuits you want to power when the grid fails you.

Then you 1) remove the hot wire feeding that circuit from your circuit
breaker, connect it with a wire nut to a numbered wire feeding into your
service panel from the transfer switch, 2) connect the matching numbered
wire of that pair to the existing circuit breaker, 3) connect the common
to the common buss. That circuit is done.

My transfer switch has 6 120v breakers and 2 240v breakers.

Repeat as necessary.

When power fails, connect the umbilical cord from the generator to the
plug on the outside of the house, fire up the generator and go inside
and activate the circuits one by one and you're in business until the
power company decides to repair the problem.

The transfer switches are BREAK before MAKE so that you will never be
able to backfeed your generator power back into the grid. We have one
centrally located circuit (for some wall outlets) that are NOT supplied
power through the transfer switch. We leave a light or radio plugged in
and turned on to let us know when the power comes back on and we can
shut down the generator.

Still a bit hesitant after speaking with the guy who convinced me to go
ahead... I shot an email to customer service at Reliance on a Saturday
morning and received a detailed answer to my question that same day.
Great service for a Saturday.

Imagine my shock when a company VP (family owned company in the
Milwaukee area) called me by phone first thing Monday morning to make
sure that my question had been answered and asking if I needed anything
further.

Bottom line: If you can get the standby power feed to the vicinity of
your circuit breaker panel AND are handy enough to swap out a dead
circuit breaker, you can install your own panel.

Check Reliance and some of the others. Pretty sure there are videos
that will walk you through it as well.




Why don't you set up a microwave transmitter at the genny then use microwave
dishes to receive all the power? Your rooftop festooned with s series of
dishes and waveguides to your devices will be a source of pride and joy. No
need to worry about heating or cooking.

--
Tekkie

"bob haller" wrote in message
...
On Monday, May 26, 2014 11:01:44 PM UTC-4, NotMe wrote:

snip

Depending on the nature of the outage NG may be interrupted as well. We
use
NG as primary with LPG as back up

I am 57 and have NEVER had a natural gas failure. Nearby residents did
when a backhoe broke a water and a gas line. The water flooded the gas
line, and made a real mess that took 2 weeks to make everything all right.
{{{

Good on you, Depending on the emergency (hurricanes and tornados come to
mind) and the nature of the damage the utility will cut the supply on orders
from FEMA, the fire department, the state or city.

BTW I have an interest in a company that supplies emergency gen sets to the
oil patch and cell phone companies. Back up and redundancy is the name of
the game if you want to keep the lights.

Might add that NOLA used NG as back up for their emergency communications
system. That was BEFORE Katrina. The practice was to put gen sets in the
basement as well and everyone know how well that worked.

As for me and mine we have duel and in some cases tri-fuel options.
Equipment is mounted well above the 500 year flood line. In Okla. and N
Texas we have the equipment and fuel in safe rooms.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 May 2014 14:04:01 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Monday, May 26, 2014 11:01:44 PM UTC-4, NotMe wrote:
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message

...

Per Terry Coombs:

I can adfford to be hot more than I can afford the fuel bill for
runnin'

them .



Also, my experience during prolonged outages is that the gas stations'

power is out too.... making it difficult to procure gasoline if you do

not have enough stored.





Depending on the nature of the outage NG may be interrupted as well. We
use

NG as primary with LPG as back up

I am 57 and have NEVER had a natural gas failure. Nearby residents did
when a backhoe broke a water and a gas line. The water flooded the gas
line, and made a real mess that took 2 weeks to make everything all right.

But in a grid down I wouldnt be surprised if natural gas quit working.....
Why would it? All of the represurizing stations are gas powered, with
their own generators to run the required electrics. The massive east
coast blackout a number of years back, and the big ice storm that took
down power across Ont, Quebec and the eastern states didn't affect the
gas distribution system at all.

If the user facilities afe taken down by wind or water pipes are exposed
often vented to the air. To minimize the possability of explosion the
supplys are cut.

On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 10:14:55 PM UTC-4, NotMe wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Tue, 27 May 2014 14:04:01 -0700 (PDT), bob haller

wrote:



On Monday, May 26, 2014 11:01:44 PM UTC-4, NotMe wrote:

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message



...



Per Terry Coombs:



I can adfford to be hot more than I can afford the fuel bill for

runnin'



them .







Also, my experience during prolonged outages is that the gas stations'



power is out too.... making it difficult to procure gasoline if you do



not have enough stored.











Depending on the nature of the outage NG may be interrupted as well. We

use



NG as primary with LPG as back up



I am 57 and have NEVER had a natural gas failure. Nearby residents did

when a backhoe broke a water and a gas line. The water flooded the gas

line, and made a real mess that took 2 weeks to make everything all right.



But in a grid down I wouldnt be surprised if natural gas quit working.....

Why would it? All of the represurizing stations are gas powered, with

their own generators to run the required electrics. The massive east

coast blackout a number of years back, and the big ice storm that took

down power across Ont, Quebec and the eastern states didn't affect the

gas distribution system at all.



If the user facilities afe taken down by wind or water pipes are exposed

often vented to the air. To minimize the possability of explosion the

supplys are cut.

And if it gets that bad, a generator isn't likely to matter anyway.
Here in NJ, during Sandy, nat gas was cut off to some shore areas
that were the hardest hit, totally flooded, wrecked, etc. But residents
were forced to evacuate and not allowed in those areas for weeks to months either. So if it gets that bad, it isn't too likely that a generator is going
to do you any good regardless of what it's fueled with. In 50 years
of various outages, I've never had nat gas go out. During Sandy, I
was without electricity for a week, but had nat gas the whole time.
You have to so some reasonable analysis of likely scenarios. And I
think in many cases, nat gas is about the best solution there is.

On Wed, 28 May 2014 21:14:55 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 27 May 2014 14:04:01 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Monday, May 26, 2014 11:01:44 PM UTC-4, NotMe wrote:
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message

...

Per Terry Coombs:

I can adfford to be hot more than I can afford the fuel bill for
runnin'

them .



Also, my experience during prolonged outages is that the gas stations'

power is out too.... making it difficult to procure gasoline if you do

not have enough stored.





Depending on the nature of the outage NG may be interrupted as well. We
use

NG as primary with LPG as back up

I am 57 and have NEVER had a natural gas failure. Nearby residents did
when a backhoe broke a water and a gas line. The water flooded the gas
line, and made a real mess that took 2 weeks to make everything all right.

But in a grid down I wouldnt be surprised if natural gas quit working.....
Why would it? All of the represurizing stations are gas powered, with
their own generators to run the required electrics. The massive east
coast blackout a number of years back, and the big ice storm that took
down power across Ont, Quebec and the eastern states didn't affect the
gas distribution system at all.

If the user facilities afe taken down by wind or water pipes are exposed
often vented to the air. To minimize the possability of explosion the
supplys are cut.

Which has nothing to do with "the grid" going down. Yes, you CAN lose
gas supply in a severe disaster - but by then gasoline and electricity
are usually also in extremely limited supply.

Per NotMe:
If the user facilities afe taken down by wind or water pipes are exposed
often vented to the air. To minimize the possability of explosion the
supplys are cut.

That's what happened to at least one New Jersey town in the aftermath of
Sandy.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Thursday, May 29, 2014 9:15:10 PM UTC-4, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per NotMe:

If the user facilities afe taken down by wind or water pipes are exposed

often vented to the air. To minimize the possability of explosion the

supplys are cut.



That's what happened to at least one New Jersey town in the aftermath of

Sandy.

--

Pete Cresswell

It sure did. And in every case where that happened that I heard of
here, the area was under mandatory evacuation. People were not allowed
to return, re-occupy homes, etc for weeks to months. So, losing nat
gas that way shouldn't deter someone from relying on it for the more
typical generator scenarios. No backup scheme is perfect, but IMO
using nat gas is about the best scenario out there for most people who
have it available. In 35+ years of experience, I've never had nat gas
go out during a power outage. It hasn't gone out at all, except I think
one time when the gas company was doing work and notified everyone of
an interruption for a few hours.

trader_4 posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On Thursday, May 29, 2014 9:15:10 PM UTC-4, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per NotMe:

If the user facilities afe taken down by wind or water pipes are exposed

often vented to the air. To minimize the possability of explosion the

supplys are cut.



That's what happened to at least one New Jersey town in the aftermath of

Sandy.

--

Pete Cresswell

It sure did. And in every case where that happened that I heard of
here, the area was under mandatory evacuation. People were not allowed
to return, re-occupy homes, etc for weeks to months. So, losing nat
gas that way shouldn't deter someone from relying on it for the more
typical generator scenarios. No backup scheme is perfect, but IMO
using nat gas is about the best scenario out there for most people who
have it available. In 35+ years of experience, I've never had nat gas
go out during a power outage. It hasn't gone out at all, except I think
one time when the gas company was doing work and notified everyone of
an interruption for a few hours.

This is probably the best thought on this. Nat gas if you can get it,
propane if not.

The school district where I used to work had a deal with the Nat gas
supplier for a better rate if they could cut it off during peak demands.
Which they did!

The nat gas supplier to my area wants a $1 a foot to lay pipeline from the
closest source. Ouch. If I was younger and had money I would go propane and
a genset in a heartbeat. I am old and cranky and outages bother me more and
more.

--
Tekkie

Per Tekkie®:
This is probably the best thought on this. Nat gas if you can get it,
propane if not.
.....
The nat gas supplier to my area wants a $1 a foot to lay pipeline from the
closest source. Ouch. If I was younger and had money I would go propane and
a genset in a heartbeat. I am old and cranky and outages bother me more and
more.

I think I am going to cost out running nat gas out to the gennie and
then compare that to the cost of propane.

I'm thinking 10 days absolute worst case for an outage around here.

My suspicion is that I'll be able to buy enough propane to operate two
or three times that period for less than what running nat gas out to the
gennie will cost - but I want to get down to dollars and cents before I
make a choice.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Friday, May 30, 2014 8:16:13 PM UTC-4, Tekkie® wrote:
trader_4 posted for all of us...



And I know how to SNIP





On Thursday, May 29, 2014 9:15:10 PM UTC-4, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

Per NotMe:



If the user facilities afe taken down by wind or water pipes are exposed



often vented to the air. To minimize the possability of explosion the



supplys are cut.







That's what happened to at least one New Jersey town in the aftermath of



Sandy.



--



Pete Cresswell



It sure did. And in every case where that happened that I heard of

here, the area was under mandatory evacuation. People were not allowed

to return, re-occupy homes, etc for weeks to months. So, losing nat

gas that way shouldn't deter someone from relying on it for the more

typical generator scenarios. No backup scheme is perfect, but IMO

using nat gas is about the best scenario out there for most people who

have it available. In 35+ years of experience, I've never had nat gas

go out during a power outage. It hasn't gone out at all, except I think

one time when the gas company was doing work and notified everyone of

an interruption for a few hours.



This is probably the best thought on this. Nat gas if you can get it,

propane if not.



The school district where I used to work had a deal with the Nat gas

supplier for a better rate if they could cut it off during peak demands.

Which they did!



The nat gas supplier to my area wants a $1 a foot to lay pipeline from the

closest source. Ouch. If I was younger and had money I would go propane and

a genset in a heartbeat. I am old and cranky and outages bother me more and

more.



--

Tekkie

$1 a foot sounds like a great deal to me. If you're using oil for example,
even if you paid for 1000ft install, it would only be $1000. Any place
where significant winter heating is involved, you could recover that cost
savings in fuel, servicing, etc in just a few years. My nat gas usage
over the winter for heating was $630. I'd bet oil would easily be 50%+
more. In 3 years, you'd have the cost of a 1000 ft run covered.

trader_4 posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

$1 a foot sounds like a great deal to me. If you're using oil for example,
even if you paid for 1000ft install, it would only be $1000. Any place
where significant winter heating is involved, you could recover that cost
savings in fuel, servicing, etc in just a few years. My nat gas usage
over the winter for heating was $630. I'd bet oil would easily be 50%+
more. In 3 years, you'd have the cost of a 1000 ft run covered.


I will check on the price I was working from memory which in my case is none
too reliable. In this fellows case the nearest point was 1-1/4 miles away.

New homes here are always underground propane.

--
Tekkie

``On Tuesday, June 3, 2014 6:57:58 PM UTC-4, Tekkie® wrote:
trader_4 posted for all of us...



And I know how to SNIP



$1 a foot sounds like a great deal to me. If you're using oil for example,

even if you paid for 1000ft install, it would only be $1000. Any place

where significant winter heating is involved, you could recover that cost

savings in fuel, servicing, etc in just a few years. My nat gas usage

over the winter for heating was $630. I'd bet oil would easily be 50%+

more. In 3 years, you'd have the cost of a 1000 ft run covered.





I will check on the price I was working from memory which in my case is none

too reliable. In this fellows case the nearest point was 1-1/4 miles away.



New homes here are always underground propane.



--

Tekkie

I was comparing heating bills with a friend last night who has oil.
My guess that oil was at least 50% higher was way off. He said he's
paying $500 a month in winter and his house is smaller, but old and
not as well insulated. I just looked at the EPA estimates for the cost
of heating by various methods, based on Q413 energy prices. Oil is
2.7 X the cost of nat gas!

http://www.eia.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls%E2%80%8E

And propane is just as much as oil.