The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"
http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically
borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading
http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it
seems to confirm the benefits of borate.

Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate
can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30
boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5
each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use
PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly
PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).

The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable
ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer
hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less
a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.

Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought
all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am
going to try it.

On Fri, 02 May 2014 15:49:08 -0700, sms
wrote:

The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"
http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically
borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading
http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it
seems to confirm the benefits of borate.

Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate
can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30
boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5
each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use
PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly
PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).

The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable
ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer
hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less
a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.

Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought
all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am
going to try it.

Search the "BBB Method". Plus Muriatic Acid as a forth solution.

Given what I have read this last few weeks, I'll never buy stuff from
the pool store again. Get a pro test kit. I did.

BBB - Bleach, Baking Soda and Borax.

You still need muriatic acid as the forth.

On 5/2/2014 5:49 PM, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"
http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically
borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading
http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it
seems to confirm the benefits of borate.

Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate
can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30
boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5
each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use
PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly
PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).

The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable
ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer
hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less
a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.

Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought
all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am
going to try it.

Never heard of it but keep us updated on the results.

On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"

http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically

borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading

http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it

seems to confirm the benefits of borate.



Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate

can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30

boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5

each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use

PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly

PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).



The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable

ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer

hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less

a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.



Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates
must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we
have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an
hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.

If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered
switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at
half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.
I'm in the process of doing that right now.






Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought

all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am

going to try it.

On 5/2/2014 5:54 PM, gonjah wrote:
On 5/2/2014 5:49 PM, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"
http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically
borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading
http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it
seems to confirm the benefits of borate.

Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate
can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30
boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5
each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use
PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly
PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).

The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable
ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer
hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less
a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.

Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought
all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am
going to try it.

Never heard of it but keep us updated on the results.

Also, borate, like cyanuric acid (stabilizer) doesn't evaporate, so you
only add it when you fill the pool, and maybe a little extra every year
to compensate for splashed out water and overflow.

Started adding it last night. You put it into the skimmer, a little at a
time. They warn that if you dump in a lot all at once it won't dissolve
right away and can clog the pipe to the pump and that it takes a long
time dissolve when that happens.

On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"

http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically

borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading

http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it

seems to confirm the benefits of borate.



Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate

can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30

boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5

each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use

PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly

PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).



The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable

ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer

hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less

a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.



Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates
must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we
have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an
hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.

If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered
switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at
half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.
I'm in the process of doing that right now.



I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a fairly new pump,

On 5/3/2014 10:32 AM, sms wrote:
On 5/2/2014 5:54 PM, gonjah wrote:
On 5/2/2014 5:49 PM, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"
http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically
borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading
http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it
seems to confirm the benefits of borate.

Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate
can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30
boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5
each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use
PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly
PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).

The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable
ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer
hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less
a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.

Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought
all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am
going to try it.

Never heard of it but keep us updated on the results.

Also, borate, like cyanuric acid (stabilizer) doesn't evaporate, so you
only add it when you fill the pool, and maybe a little extra every year
to compensate for splashed out water and overflow.

Started adding it last night. You put it into the skimmer, a little at a
time. They warn that if you dump in a lot all at once it won't dissolve
right away and can clog the pipe to the pump and that it takes a long
time dissolve when that happens.

I might do it if algae becomes an issue. Since I refinished the pool
last November I have seen one bit of algae. I think almost all of my
algae issues were caused by the black algae firmly embedded in the old
plaster. The pool was at least 27 y/o when I bought the house and the
pool wasn't maintained very well. The plaster was badly pitted. Last
November I basically bought a new pool.

On 5/3/2014 10:47 AM, gonjah wrote:
On 5/3/2014 10:32 AM, sms wrote:
On 5/2/2014 5:54 PM, gonjah wrote:
On 5/2/2014 5:49 PM, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"
http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically
borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading
http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it
seems to confirm the benefits of borate.

Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate
can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need
about 30
boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5
each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To
use
PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly
PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the
ph).

The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable
ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer
hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours
less
a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.

Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought
all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am
going to try it.

Never heard of it but keep us updated on the results.

Also, borate, like cyanuric acid (stabilizer) doesn't evaporate, so you
only add it when you fill the pool, and maybe a little extra every year
to compensate for splashed out water and overflow.

Started adding it last night. You put it into the skimmer, a little at a
time. They warn that if you dump in a lot all at once it won't dissolve
right away and can clog the pipe to the pump and that it takes a long
time dissolve when that happens.

I might do it if algae becomes an issue. Since I refinished the pool
last November I *have* seen one bit of algae. I think almost all of my
algae issues were caused by the black algae firmly embedded in the old
plaster. The pool was at least 27 y/o when I bought the house and the
pool wasn't maintained very well. The plaster was badly pitted. Last
November I basically bought a new pool.

"haven't"

On Saturday, May 3, 2014 11:37:03 AM UTC-4, gonjah wrote:
On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:

The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"



http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically



borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading



http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it



seems to confirm the benefits of borate.







Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate



can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30



boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5



each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use



PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly



PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).







The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable



ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer



hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less



a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.







Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates

must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we

have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an

hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.



If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered

switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at

half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.

I'm in the process of doing that right now.







I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a fairly new pump,

Why wait? The new motor only cost $190. All the
other stuff to wire it in, etc it's about $225 total.
Figure to be saving $30+ a month.

On 5/3/2014 8:37 AM, gonjah wrote:
On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"

http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically

borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading

http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it

seems to confirm the benefits of borate.



Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate

can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30

boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5

each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use

PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly

PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).



The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable

ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer

hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less

a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.



Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates
must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we
have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an
hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.

If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered
switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at
half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.
I'm in the process of doing that right now.



I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a fairly new pump,

I calculated the cost of running the pump 4 hours a day versus 6 hours a
day.

I have a one speed, 1.5HP pump rated at 230V/9.3A. It pushes me into the
top tier of rates which is 36¢/KWhour. It draws 2.139 KW. So I'm paying
77¢/hour. If I cut cut down the pump time by two hours a day I'd save
$46.20 per month. So the $75 was wrong. It will costs about $160 to
bring the borate level to 50ppm. So it will take a little less than four
months to pay for itself. But the other benefit is being able to have a
lower chlorine level so there are also savings in chlorine, probably
about $20 per month.

Certainly you should follow those "BBB Method" directions, but I can't see why you can't just leave the borax in your pool's water all summer.

Borates are by far the safest wood preservatives, to mammals at least. In fact in China and other Asian countries, borax is used as a food additive. So swimming in water with a low concentration of borax dissoved in it shouldn't pose any danger, especially if people make a point of not swallowing the pool water.

Borax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The FDA has banned Borax as a food additive in the USA, but it's commonly available for a host of other uses.

sms wrote:
On 5/3/2014 8:37 AM, gonjah wrote:
On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"

http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof
which is
basically borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading

http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx
and it seems to confirm the benefits of borate.



Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous
mark-up but
borate can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team
Borax. I would need
about 30 boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight
gallons of acid (about
$5 each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the
ph back down.
To use PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid
was necessary
(supposedly PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure
borate powder raises
the ph). The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are
supposed to be a more
stable ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run
the pool pump for
fewer hours. That last one could really make it pay for
itself. Two
hours less a day of the pump running would probably
save me $75 per month.



Either you must have a very big pump or your electric
rates
must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW.
Here in NJ
we have some of the highest electric rates and it costs
about 25c an
hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.

If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you
considered
switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running
it at
half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage
in half.
I'm in the process of doing that right now.



I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a
fairly new pump,

I calculated the cost of running the pump 4 hours a day
versus 6
hours a day.

I have a one speed, 1.5HP pump rated at 230V/9.3A. It
pushes me into
the top tier of rates which is 36¢/KWhour. It draws 2.139
KW. So I'm
paying 77¢/hour. If I cut cut down the pump time by two
hours a day
I'd save $46.20 per month. So the $75 was wrong. It will
costs about
$160 to bring the borate level to 50ppm. So it will take a
little
less than four months to pay for itself. But the other
benefit is
being able to have a lower chlorine level so there are
also savings
in chlorine, probably about $20 per month.

Where the hell do you live that you pay 36¢/KW?

On Saturday, May 3, 2014 1:15:05 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/3/2014 8:37 AM, gonjah wrote:

On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:

The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"



http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically



borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading



http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it



seems to confirm the benefits of borate.







Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate



can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30



boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5



each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use



PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly



PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).







The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable



ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer



hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less



a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.







Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates

must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we

have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an

hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.



If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered

switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at

half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.

I'm in the process of doing that right now.







I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a fairly new pump,



I calculated the cost of running the pump 4 hours a day versus 6 hours a

day.



Why 4 vs 6? If you use run the pump at half speed, it shoule be 3 vs 6.
And running at half speed, instead of pulling 9.3A, it would probably
pull more like 2 amps. You have to run it twice as long to move the
same amount of water, but even so, it winds up using less than half
the electricity.



I have a one speed, 1.5HP pump rated at 230V/9.3A. It pushes me into the

top tier of rates which is 36�/KWhour.


I guess the folks where you live, CA I presume, let the idiot hippies
take control. Sadly, at the moment, that's where we're all headed.



It draws 2.139 KW. So I'm paying

77�/hour. If I cut cut down the pump time by two hours a day I'd save

$46.20 per month. So the $75 was wrong. It will costs about $160 to

bring the borate level to 50ppm. So it will take a little less than four

months to pay for itself. But the other benefit is being able to have a

lower chlorine level so there are also savings in chlorine, probably

about $20 per month.

And still without regard to the borate, if you;re paying 36c/kwh, a dual
speed pump would appear to be at the top of the list. Here in NJ, with
18c kwh rates the new pump I just put in will pay for itself in less
than 2 years. And I would
think that hippie states might have utility rebates that would make it
pay off in a year.

On 5/3/2014 11:01 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, May 3, 2014 11:37:03 AM UTC-4, gonjah wrote:
On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:

The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"



http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically



borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading



http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it



seems to confirm the benefits of borate.







Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate



can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30



boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5



each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use



PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly



PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).







The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable



ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer



hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less



a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.







Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates

must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we

have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an

hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.



If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered

switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at

half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.

I'm in the process of doing that right now.







I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a fairly new pump,

Why wait? The new motor only cost $190. All the
other stuff to wire it in, etc it's about $225 total.
Figure to be saving $30+ a month.


Too many other pans in the fryer right now. You don't want to ask.

On 5/3/2014 10:32 AM, ChairMan wrote:

snip

Where the hell do you live that you pay 36¢/KW?

Northern California.

There are four tiers (rounded to whole numbers):
Tier 1 is 351KWH at 13¢ each
Tier 2 is 105KWH at 15¢ each
Tier 3 is 246KWH at 32¢ each
Tier 4 is anything over tiers 1-3 at 37¢/KWH
(These tiers were on my March bill)

We almost never run our A/C since the weather is so mild (most houses
don't even have A/C in our neighborhood), and our water heater, furnace,
and clothes dryer run on natural gas. Our biggest use of electricity is
the pool pump.

I do have a two speed pump that I am going to install but I was waiting
for the current pump to break. The two-speed, and variable speed, pumps
have a much shorter service life than the older one-speed pumps
according to the pool store (I don't know why they would admit this when
they are trying to sell $1200 variable speed pumps!).

One other issue I have is that it's an older pool, built when they built
deep pools so you could have a diving board. The deep end is 13' deep,
and the shallow end is very small. So the volume of water is very large,
probably 35-40K gallons. So that's a lot of pumping to filter the water.

I tried just filling the shallow end of the pool, and leaving the deep
end empty, but I couldn't get that to work.

So the claimed benefits of borate a

1. Allows you to maintain the chlorine level at a lower PPM saving on
sanitizer cost.
2. Allows you to run the pump for fewer hours per day saving on electricity.
3. Reduces the need for algaecide saving the cost of algaecide.
4. Stabilizes the ph so there is less need for acid.
5. Does not raise the alkalinity when used to raise the ph.
6. Makes the water "sparkle."

The downsides a

1. Initial cost
2. Animals should not drink water from the pool.

We'll see. I'm always leery of stuff the pool store tries to sell me,
but I did not buy the borate there anyway.

I expect your high electricity rates are the result of your electric utility burning coal to generate steam to produce electricity, which is an expensive way to do things. Either that, or you use wind to produce electric power.

Here in Manitoba we have more hydro electric potential than we need. In fact, if you were to build dams on all of the places where hydro electric power could be economically generated in Manitoba, we could provide all of Canada's needs. Unfortunately, British Columbia, Ontario, Quebec and Newfoundland are just as well off when it comes to hydro electric power potential, so we have no customers for our electricity right now except Minnesota and North Dakota.

Our electric utility, Manitoba Hydro, is a publically owned company, and Manitobans pay 6.83 cents per kilowatt hour.

When electric cars start replacing gasoline powered cars, Manitoba is going to be the next Saudi Arabia.

On 5/3/2014 11:50 AM, nestork wrote:

sms;3230935 Wrote:
On 5/3/2014 10:32 AM, ChairMan wrote:

snip
-
Where the hell do you live that you pay 36¢/KW?-

Northern California.

There are four tiers (rounded to whole numbers):
Tier 1 is 351KWH at 13¢ each
Tier 2 is 105KWH at 15¢ each
Tier 3 is 246KWH at 32¢ each
Tier 4 is anything over tiers 1-3 at 37¢/KWH
(These tiers were on my March bill)

We almost never run our A/C since the weather is so mild (most houses
don't even have A/C in our neighborhood), and our water heater, furnace,

and clothes dryer run on natural gas. Our biggest use of electricity is

the pool pump.


I expect your high electricity rates are the result of your electric
utility burning coal to generate steam to produce electricity, which is
an expensive way to do things. Either that, or you use wind to produce
electric power.

No coal. Natural gas, oil, and hydro-electric (though this year there
won't be a lot of hydro-electric due to the drought).

Where the hell do you live that you pay 36¢/KW?-

Northern California.

There are four tiers (rounded to whole numbers):
Tier 1 is 351KWH at 13¢ each
Tier 2 is 105KWH at 15¢ each
Tier 3 is 246KWH at 32¢ each
Tier 4 is anything over tiers 1-3 at 37¢/KWH
(These tiers were on my March bill)


Jumping in late here.

So these rates are cumulative for the month?

If I'm reading this right, my highest bill for last year was 1239 KWH
so the first 351 is costing $45.63, the next 105 is $15.75, then 246 @
$78.72 and finally, 536 @ .37 = $213.12.

I thought we had high rates. I paid $194.47 that month but your rate
would be $353.22? OMG, that would change the way we do things in this
house!

Regardless. Burning any kind of fossil fuel to produce electricity is expensive and results in people having to pay high electric bills. Eventually, when electric cars become common, people are going to find out how much hydroelectric power potential Manitoba has.

There is a electricity producing station in East Selkirk, Manitoba that uses either coal or natural gas to produce electricity. Manitoba Hydro only runs that facility when they need additional power during peak demand periods, or so we're being told. I grew up in West Selkirk (across the Red River from East Selkirk), and we could see the smoke stacks of that electrical generating station from West Selkirk, and I never remember seeing smoke come out of those stacks. All of our electrical needs come from falling water, which is free.

On 5/3/2014 1:18 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Where the hell do you live that you pay 36¢/KW?-

Northern California.

There are four tiers (rounded to whole numbers):
Tier 1 is 351KWH at 13¢ each
Tier 2 is 105KWH at 15¢ each
Tier 3 is 246KWH at 32¢ each
Tier 4 is anything over tiers 1-3 at 37¢/KWH
(These tiers were on my March bill)


Jumping in late here.

So these rates are cumulative for the month?

Yes.

If I'm reading this right, my highest bill for last year was 1239 KWH
so the first 351 is costing $45.63, the next 105 is $15.75, then 246 @
$78.72 and finally, 536 @ .37 = $213.12.

I thought we had high rates. I paid $194.47 that month but your rate
would be $353.22? OMG, that would change the way we do things in this
house!

Most people have gas dryers, water heaters, and furnaces since they are
much cheaper to operate. So the major use of electricity is A/C (which
is only common starting in central San Jose and further south, and pool
pumps, which also aren't that common until San Jose. If we didn't have a
pool we'd rarely get beyond tier 2.

On Sat, 03 May 2014 13:47:13 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/3/2014 1:18 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Where the hell do you live that you pay 36¢/KW?-

Northern California.

There are four tiers (rounded to whole numbers):
Tier 1 is 351KWH at 13¢ each
Tier 2 is 105KWH at 15¢ each
Tier 3 is 246KWH at 32¢ each
Tier 4 is anything over tiers 1-3 at 37¢/KWH
(These tiers were on my March bill)


Jumping in late here.

So these rates are cumulative for the month?

Yes.

If I'm reading this right, my highest bill for last year was 1239 KWH
so the first 351 is costing $45.63, the next 105 is $15.75, then 246 @
$78.72 and finally, 536 @ .37 = $213.12.

I thought we had high rates. I paid $194.47 that month but your rate
would be $353.22? OMG, that would change the way we do things in this
house!

Most people have gas dryers, water heaters, and furnaces since they are
much cheaper to operate. So the major use of electricity is A/C (which
is only common starting in central San Jose and further south, and pool
pumps, which also aren't that common until San Jose. If we didn't have a
pool we'd rarely get beyond tier 2.

We have electric dryer and the lightest month last year was about 600
KWH. Gas is not available here, but we use propane to cook oil to
heat. We do use AC in the summer though and that would be expensive.
Gas AC used to be decent, but I don't even know if residential units
are still practical..

On 5/3/2014 2:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

We have electric dryer and the lightest month last year was about 600
KWH. Gas is not available here, but we use propane to cook oil to
heat. We do use AC in the summer though and that would be expensive.
Gas AC used to be decent, but I don't even know if residential units
are still practical..

Gas A/C is really rare these days. I remember as a child the guy across
the street from us, who was a plumber, had gas A/C and a gas refrigerator.

On 5/2/2014 3:49 PM, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"
http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically
borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading
http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it
seems to confirm the benefits of borate.

Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate
can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30
boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5
each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use
PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly
PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).

The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable
ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer
hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less
a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.

Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought
all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am
going to try it.

Another cite http://blog.poolcenter.com/article.aspx?articleid=6341

It starts with: "Hey kids ~ want to have less pH bounce, shinier,
silkier water with no algae problems? But wait, there's more! You'll
also be using half as much chlorine as you do now! Hard to believe?"

Basically you have choice of a pre-mixed solution that is ph neutral or
buying borate and acid and adding them alternately to keep the ph from
going up.

On 5/3/2014 1:18 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Where the hell do you live that you pay 36¢/KW?-

Northern California.

There are four tiers (rounded to whole numbers):
Tier 1 is 351KWH at 13¢ each
Tier 2 is 105KWH at 15¢ each
Tier 3 is 246KWH at 32¢ each
Tier 4 is anything over tiers 1-3 at 37¢/KWH
(These tiers were on my March bill)


Jumping in late here.

So these rates are cumulative for the month?

If I'm reading this right, my highest bill for last year was 1239 KWH
so the first 351 is costing $45.63, the next 105 is $15.75, then 246 @
$78.72 and finally, 536 @ .37 = $213.12.

I thought we had high rates. I paid $194.47 that month but your rate
would be $353.22? OMG, that would change the way we do things in this
house!

Actually the top tier is 36.377¢ so I should have rounded down to 36¢.

trader_4 wrote:
..

Good grief. Coal is probably the cheapest fuel for
generating electricity. His problem isn't coal, it's
that the hippie libs have taken over and royally
screwed California for decades now. They had it so
screwed about ten years ago, the lights went out.

You mean all those hippie libs at Enron?

On Sat, 3 May 2014 10:52:51 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, May 3, 2014 1:15:05 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/3/2014 8:37 AM, gonjah wrote:

On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:

The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"



http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically



borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading



http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it



seems to confirm the benefits of borate.







Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate



can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30



boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5



each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use



PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly



PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).







The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable



ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer



hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less



a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.







Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates

must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we

have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an

hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.



If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered

switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at

half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.

I'm in the process of doing that right now.







I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a fairly new pump,



I calculated the cost of running the pump 4 hours a day versus 6 hours a

day.



Why 4 vs 6? If you use run the pump at half speed, it shoule be 3 vs 6.
And running at half speed, instead of pulling 9.3A, it would probably
pull more like 2 amps. You have to run it twice as long to move the
same amount of water, but even so, it winds up using less than half
the electricity.



I have a one speed, 1.5HP pump rated at 230V/9.3A. It pushes me into the

top tier of rates which is 36�/KWhour.


I guess the folks where you live, CA I presume, let the idiot hippies
take control. Sadly, at the moment, that's where we're all headed.



It draws 2.139 KW. So I'm paying

77�/hour. If I cut cut down the pump time by two hours a day I'd save

$46.20 per month. So the $75 was wrong. It will costs about $160 to

bring the borate level to 50ppm. So it will take a little less than four

months to pay for itself. But the other benefit is being able to have a

lower chlorine level so there are also savings in chlorine, probably

about $20 per month.

And still without regard to the borate, if you;re paying 36c/kwh, a dual
speed pump would appear to be at the top of the list. Here in NJ, with
18c kwh rates the new pump I just put in will pay for itself in less
than 2 years. And I would
think that hippie states might have utility rebates that would make it
pay off in a year.


Don't any of you folks have Time of Day Rates? My off-peak rate here
is about half the on-peak rate in the summer. Winter there isn't much
difference. So I run my pool in the off-peak hours and keep the AC
set higher in the on-peak and then turn it down after 8 at night till
1 in the afternoon the next day when the on-peak hits again.

On Sun, 04 May 2014 00:01:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:





Don't any of you folks have Time of Day Rates? My off-peak rate here
is about half the on-peak rate in the summer. Winter there isn't much
difference. So I run my pool in the off-peak hours and keep the AC
set higher in the on-peak and then turn it down after 8 at night till
1 in the afternoon the next day when the on-peak hits again.

We have it if you choose the electric company as your supplier, but I
don't see any big bargain for most of us. Peak time is Noon to 8 PM
Mon - Fri. The generation rate is. 11.86¢ for peak and 8.36¢ off
peak. With another supplier, I pay 7.95¢ at any time. These are
generation rates only. Add 8.6¢ for delivery.

If the other suppliers stated to offer it, then savings may happen.

On 5/4/2014 5:07 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 04 May 2014 00:01:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:





Don't any of you folks have Time of Day Rates? My off-peak rate here
is about half the on-peak rate in the summer. Winter there isn't much
difference. So I run my pool in the off-peak hours and keep the AC
set higher in the on-peak and then turn it down after 8 at night till
1 in the afternoon the next day when the on-peak hits again.

We have it if you choose the electric company as your supplier, but I
don't see any big bargain for most of us. Peak time is Noon to 8 PM
Mon - Fri. The generation rate is. 11.86¢ for peak and 8.36¢ off
peak. With another supplier, I pay 7.95¢ at any time. These are
generation rates only. Add 8.6¢ for delivery.

If the other suppliers stated to offer it, then savings may happen.

Since the pool pump must be run at peak time, it's better to opt for the
non-time-of-use rates.

On Saturday, May 3, 2014 4:34:00 PM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
sms;3230980 Wrote:



No coal. Natural gas, oil, and hydro-electric (though this year there

won't be a lot of hydro-electric due to the drought).



Regardless. Burning any kind of fossil fuel to produce electricity is

expensive and results in people having to pay high electric bills.


Nonsense. Coal is cheap and has provided cheap electricity for a
hundred years. .



Eventually, when electric cars become common, people are going to find

out how much hydroelectric power potential Manitoba has.



There is a electricity producing station in East Selkirk, Manitoba that

uses either coal or natural gas to produce electricity. Manitoba Hydro

only runs that facility when they need additional power during peak

demand periods, or so we're being told. I grew up in West Selkirk

(across the Red River from East Selkirk), and we could see the smoke

stacks of that electrical generating station from West Selkirk, and I

never remember seeing smoke come out of those stacks. All of our

electrical needs come from falling water, which is free.




It's nice that it works for you, because you have to appropriate
natural resources. It's not like the USA has hundreds of reasonable
hydro sites that could be developed. And any that can be, I can assure
you the hippies will be there blocking those because of the environmental
impact. Damming up rivers, creating huge artificial lakes have environmental
consequences too.











--

nestork

On Saturday, May 3, 2014 9:47:39 PM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

.



Good grief. Coal is probably the cheapest fuel for

generating electricity. His problem isn't coal, it's

that the hippie libs have taken over and royally

screwed California for decades now. They had it so

screwed about ten years ago, the lights went out.



You mean all those hippie libs at Enron?

No, the hippies in CA that screwed with the laws, regulations and free markets.

On Sunday, May 4, 2014 3:01:22 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sat, 3 May 2014 10:52:51 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

wrote:



On Saturday, May 3, 2014 1:15:05 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:

On 5/3/2014 8:37 AM, gonjah wrote:



On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:



On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:



The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"







http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically







borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading







http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it







seems to confirm the benefits of borate.















Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate







can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30







boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5







each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use







PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly







PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).















The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable







ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer







hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less







a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.















Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates



must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we



have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an



hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.







If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered



switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at



half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.



I'm in the process of doing that right now.















I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a fairly new pump,







I calculated the cost of running the pump 4 hours a day versus 6 hours a



day.







Why 4 vs 6? If you use run the pump at half speed, it shoule be 3 vs 6.

And running at half speed, instead of pulling 9.3A, it would probably

pull more like 2 amps. You have to run it twice as long to move the

same amount of water, but even so, it winds up using less than half

the electricity.







I have a one speed, 1.5HP pump rated at 230V/9.3A. It pushes me into the



top tier of rates which is 36�/KWhour.





I guess the folks where you live, CA I presume, let the idiot hippies

take control. Sadly, at the moment, that's where we're all headed.







It draws 2.139 KW. So I'm paying



77�/hour. If I cut cut down the pump time by two hours a day I'd save



$46.20 per month. So the $75 was wrong. It will costs about $160 to



bring the borate level to 50ppm. So it will take a little less than four



months to pay for itself. But the other benefit is being able to have a



lower chlorine level so there are also savings in chlorine, probably



about $20 per month.



And still without regard to the borate, if you;re paying 36c/kwh, a dual

speed pump would appear to be at the top of the list. Here in NJ, with

18c kwh rates the new pump I just put in will pay for itself in less

than 2 years. And I would

think that hippie states might have utility rebates that would make it

pay off in a year.





Don't any of you folks have Time of Day Rates? My off-peak rate here

is about half the on-peak rate in the summer. Winter there isn't much

difference. So I run my pool in the off-peak hours and keep the AC

set higher in the on-peak and then turn it down after 8 at night till

1 in the afternoon the next day when the on-peak hits again.

I was wondering that too for our friends in CA. You would think with the
super progressive rate structure they would have some lower rate at night.
But maybe they have no smart metering.

That rate structure in CA reminds me of the income tax. The hippies pass
these laws claiming it won't affect most people, just those that are
running AC with the windows open or living in a 20,000 sq ft house.
Then before long, you have rates that screw guys like SMS.
Same thing with the income tax. When it was
passed it only applied to incomes that would be the equivalent of $10mil+
today and it was just a couple of percent. Within a decade it applied
to most people and the rate had skyrocketed, eventually reaching 90%.

trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, May 3, 2014 9:47:39 PM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

.



Good grief. Coal is probably the cheapest fuel for

generating electricity. His problem isn't coal, it's

that the hippie libs have taken over and royally

screwed California for decades now. They had it so

screwed about ten years ago, the lights went out.



You mean all those hippie libs at Enron?

No, the hippies in CA that screwed with the laws, regulations and
free markets.

Sure sounds like you're talking about Enron!

http://www.marke****ch.com/story/enr...ts-traders-say

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/07/bu...ents-show.html

On 5/3/2014 10:24 AM, nestork wrote:

Certainly you should follow those "BBB Method" directions, but I can't
see why you can't just leave the borax in your pool's water all summer.

There's no way to remove the borates, short of draining (like cyanuric
acid) so removing them isn't an option. For pools in cold climates where
you drain the pool for the winter than probably borates aren't practical
because of the initial cost.

I tend to believe the guy at the pool store I go to (The Pool Guys) when
it comes to the benefits of borates. This particular store has a big
self-interest in minimizing recurring chemical usage because retail
sales of chemicals and equipment are a minor part of their business.
Most of their money comes from their pool maintenance business and the
monthly fee is the same no matter how much the chemicals cost them. They
are big fans of borate products like PoolProof (which they also have in
very large sizes not normally sold to the public though they will sell
these to the public) and big users of Orenda products which they buy in
275 gallon containers that are shipped to them on a pallet (and which
they won't sell to retail customers--I've tried). They also sell higher
percentage chlorine in returnable bottles for a lot less than the boxes
of two disposable, lower-concentration, chlorine, sold at Home Depot or
Leslie's (and it's fresher since it's delivered every couple of days
from the factory).

I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories but this was on a web site: "The
pool stores and chemical companies don't promote Borate use for the
simple reason that it will cost them money. Selling a product that will
allow a pool owner to use 40% or more less chemicals in their pools is
not a smart business practice."

On Sat, 3 May 2014 19:24:34 +0200, nestork
wrote:


Certainly you should follow those "BBB Method" directions, but I can't
see why you can't just leave the borax in your pool's water all summer.

Borates are by far the safest wood preservatives, to mammals at least.
In fact in China and other Asian countries, borax is used as a food
additive. So swimming in water with a low concentration of borax
dissoved in it shouldn't pose any danger, especially if people make a
point of not swallowing the pool water.

'Borax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borax)

The FDA has banned Borax as a food additive in the USA, but it's
commonly available for a host of other uses.

I had never heard of "BBB Method" before... a slave to pool stores
trying to "sell" stuff. I found out about it as I kept searching. A
guy from California using the method and I found his videos. He is a
pool service guy, posted it on Youtube, and links to what other
professionals doing the same thing.

I bought a professional test kit now. It talks about BBB and Soda Ash,
among other things. I'm still reading the booklet. I'll get the pool
tamed soon.

nestork posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


When electric cars start replacing gasoline powered cars, Manitoba is
going to be the next Saudi Arabia.


Turbans and Taliban?

--
Tekkie

replying to sms, Pj wrote:
Was looking at borate to my local pool stores eather act dumb or say they
can't get it looking at ordering off amazon. How did you make out and there is
a calculator that will figure the boxes and asid needed to do it the 20 mule
way

--
posted from
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...ol-794319-.htm