The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"
http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically
borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading
http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it
seems to confirm the benefits of borate.

Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate
can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30
boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5
each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use
PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly
PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).

The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable
ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer
hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less
a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.

Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought
all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am
going to try it.

On Fri, 02 May 2014 15:49:08 -0700, sms
wrote:

The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"
http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically
borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading
http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it
seems to confirm the benefits of borate.

Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate
can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30
boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5
each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use
PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly
PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).

The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable
ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer
hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less
a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.

Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought
all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am
going to try it.

Search the "BBB Method". Plus Muriatic Acid as a forth solution.

Given what I have read this last few weeks, I'll never buy stuff from
the pool store again. Get a pro test kit. I did.

BBB - Bleach, Baking Soda and Borax.

You still need muriatic acid as the forth.

On 5/2/2014 5:49 PM, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"
http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically
borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading
http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it
seems to confirm the benefits of borate.

Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate
can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30
boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5
each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use
PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly
PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).

The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable
ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer
hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less
a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.

Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought
all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am
going to try it.

Never heard of it but keep us updated on the results.

On 5/2/2014 5:54 PM, gonjah wrote:
On 5/2/2014 5:49 PM, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"
http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically
borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading
http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it
seems to confirm the benefits of borate.

Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate
can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30
boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5
each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use
PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly
PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).

The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable
ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer
hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less
a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.

Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought
all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am
going to try it.

Never heard of it but keep us updated on the results.

Also, borate, like cyanuric acid (stabilizer) doesn't evaporate, so you
only add it when you fill the pool, and maybe a little extra every year
to compensate for splashed out water and overflow.

Started adding it last night. You put it into the skimmer, a little at a
time. They warn that if you dump in a lot all at once it won't dissolve
right away and can clog the pipe to the pump and that it takes a long
time dissolve when that happens.

On 5/3/2014 10:32 AM, sms wrote:
On 5/2/2014 5:54 PM, gonjah wrote:
On 5/2/2014 5:49 PM, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"
http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically
borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading
http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it
seems to confirm the benefits of borate.

Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate
can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30
boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5
each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use
PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly
PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).

The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable
ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer
hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less
a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.

Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought
all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am
going to try it.

Never heard of it but keep us updated on the results.

Also, borate, like cyanuric acid (stabilizer) doesn't evaporate, so you
only add it when you fill the pool, and maybe a little extra every year
to compensate for splashed out water and overflow.

Started adding it last night. You put it into the skimmer, a little at a
time. They warn that if you dump in a lot all at once it won't dissolve
right away and can clog the pipe to the pump and that it takes a long
time dissolve when that happens.

I might do it if algae becomes an issue. Since I refinished the pool
last November I have seen one bit of algae. I think almost all of my
algae issues were caused by the black algae firmly embedded in the old
plaster. The pool was at least 27 y/o when I bought the house and the
pool wasn't maintained very well. The plaster was badly pitted. Last
November I basically bought a new pool.

On 5/3/2014 10:47 AM, gonjah wrote:
On 5/3/2014 10:32 AM, sms wrote:
On 5/2/2014 5:54 PM, gonjah wrote:
On 5/2/2014 5:49 PM, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"
http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically
borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading
http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it
seems to confirm the benefits of borate.

Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate
can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need
about 30
boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5
each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To
use
PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly
PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the
ph).

The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable
ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer
hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours
less
a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.

Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought
all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am
going to try it.

Never heard of it but keep us updated on the results.

Also, borate, like cyanuric acid (stabilizer) doesn't evaporate, so you
only add it when you fill the pool, and maybe a little extra every year
to compensate for splashed out water and overflow.

Started adding it last night. You put it into the skimmer, a little at a
time. They warn that if you dump in a lot all at once it won't dissolve
right away and can clog the pipe to the pump and that it takes a long
time dissolve when that happens.

I might do it if algae becomes an issue. Since I refinished the pool
last November I *have* seen one bit of algae. I think almost all of my
algae issues were caused by the black algae firmly embedded in the old
plaster. The pool was at least 27 y/o when I bought the house and the
pool wasn't maintained very well. The plaster was badly pitted. Last
November I basically bought a new pool.

"haven't"

On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"

http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically

borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading

http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it

seems to confirm the benefits of borate.



Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate

can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30

boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5

each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use

PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly

PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).



The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable

ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer

hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less

a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.



Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates
must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we
have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an
hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.

If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered
switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at
half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.
I'm in the process of doing that right now.






Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought

all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am

going to try it.

On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"

http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically

borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading

http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it

seems to confirm the benefits of borate.



Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate

can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30

boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5

each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use

PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly

PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).



The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable

ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer

hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less

a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.



Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates
must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we
have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an
hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.

If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered
switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at
half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.
I'm in the process of doing that right now.



I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a fairly new pump,

On Saturday, May 3, 2014 11:37:03 AM UTC-4, gonjah wrote:
On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:

The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"



http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically



borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading



http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it



seems to confirm the benefits of borate.







Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate



can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30



boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5



each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use



PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly



PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).







The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable



ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer



hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less



a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.







Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates

must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we

have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an

hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.



If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered

switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at

half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.

I'm in the process of doing that right now.







I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a fairly new pump,

Why wait? The new motor only cost $190. All the
other stuff to wire it in, etc it's about $225 total.
Figure to be saving $30+ a month.

Certainly you should follow those "BBB Method" directions, but I can't see why you can't just leave the borax in your pool's water all summer.

Borates are by far the safest wood preservatives, to mammals at least. In fact in China and other Asian countries, borax is used as a food additive. So swimming in water with a low concentration of borax dissoved in it shouldn't pose any danger, especially if people make a point of not swallowing the pool water.

Borax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The FDA has banned Borax as a food additive in the USA, but it's commonly available for a host of other uses.

On 5/3/2014 10:24 AM, nestork wrote:

Certainly you should follow those "BBB Method" directions, but I can't
see why you can't just leave the borax in your pool's water all summer.

There's no way to remove the borates, short of draining (like cyanuric
acid) so removing them isn't an option. For pools in cold climates where
you drain the pool for the winter than probably borates aren't practical
because of the initial cost.

I tend to believe the guy at the pool store I go to (The Pool Guys) when
it comes to the benefits of borates. This particular store has a big
self-interest in minimizing recurring chemical usage because retail
sales of chemicals and equipment are a minor part of their business.
Most of their money comes from their pool maintenance business and the
monthly fee is the same no matter how much the chemicals cost them. They
are big fans of borate products like PoolProof (which they also have in
very large sizes not normally sold to the public though they will sell
these to the public) and big users of Orenda products which they buy in
275 gallon containers that are shipped to them on a pallet (and which
they won't sell to retail customers--I've tried). They also sell higher
percentage chlorine in returnable bottles for a lot less than the boxes
of two disposable, lower-concentration, chlorine, sold at Home Depot or
Leslie's (and it's fresher since it's delivered every couple of days
from the factory).

I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories but this was on a web site: "The
pool stores and chemical companies don't promote Borate use for the
simple reason that it will cost them money. Selling a product that will
allow a pool owner to use 40% or more less chemicals in their pools is
not a smart business practice."

On Sat, 3 May 2014 19:24:34 +0200, nestork
wrote:


Certainly you should follow those "BBB Method" directions, but I can't
see why you can't just leave the borax in your pool's water all summer.

Borates are by far the safest wood preservatives, to mammals at least.
In fact in China and other Asian countries, borax is used as a food
additive. So swimming in water with a low concentration of borax
dissoved in it shouldn't pose any danger, especially if people make a
point of not swallowing the pool water.

'Borax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borax)

The FDA has banned Borax as a food additive in the USA, but it's
commonly available for a host of other uses.

I had never heard of "BBB Method" before... a slave to pool stores
trying to "sell" stuff. I found out about it as I kept searching. A
guy from California using the method and I found his videos. He is a
pool service guy, posted it on Youtube, and links to what other
professionals doing the same thing.

I bought a professional test kit now. It talks about BBB and Soda Ash,
among other things. I'm still reading the booklet. I'll get the pool
tamed soon.

On 5/3/2014 11:01 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, May 3, 2014 11:37:03 AM UTC-4, gonjah wrote:
On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:

The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"



http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically



borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading



http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it



seems to confirm the benefits of borate.







Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate



can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30



boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5



each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use



PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly



PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).







The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable



ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer



hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less



a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.







Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates

must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we

have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an

hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.



If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered

switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at

half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.

I'm in the process of doing that right now.







I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a fairly new pump,

Why wait? The new motor only cost $190. All the
other stuff to wire it in, etc it's about $225 total.
Figure to be saving $30+ a month.


Too many other pans in the fryer right now. You don't want to ask.

On 5/3/2014 8:37 AM, gonjah wrote:
On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"

http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically

borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading

http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it

seems to confirm the benefits of borate.



Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate

can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30

boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5

each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use

PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly

PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).



The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable

ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer

hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less

a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.



Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates
must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we
have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an
hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.

If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered
switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at
half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.
I'm in the process of doing that right now.



I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a fairly new pump,

I calculated the cost of running the pump 4 hours a day versus 6 hours a
day.

I have a one speed, 1.5HP pump rated at 230V/9.3A. It pushes me into the
top tier of rates which is 36¢/KWhour. It draws 2.139 KW. So I'm paying
77¢/hour. If I cut cut down the pump time by two hours a day I'd save
$46.20 per month. So the $75 was wrong. It will costs about $160 to
bring the borate level to 50ppm. So it will take a little less than four
months to pay for itself. But the other benefit is being able to have a
lower chlorine level so there are also savings in chlorine, probably
about $20 per month.

sms wrote:
On 5/3/2014 8:37 AM, gonjah wrote:
On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"

http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof
which is
basically borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading

http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx
and it seems to confirm the benefits of borate.



Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous
mark-up but
borate can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team
Borax. I would need
about 30 boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight
gallons of acid (about
$5 each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the
ph back down.
To use PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid
was necessary
(supposedly PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure
borate powder raises
the ph). The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are
supposed to be a more
stable ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run
the pool pump for
fewer hours. That last one could really make it pay for
itself. Two
hours less a day of the pump running would probably
save me $75 per month.



Either you must have a very big pump or your electric
rates
must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW.
Here in NJ
we have some of the highest electric rates and it costs
about 25c an
hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.

If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you
considered
switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running
it at
half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage
in half.
I'm in the process of doing that right now.



I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a
fairly new pump,

I calculated the cost of running the pump 4 hours a day
versus 6
hours a day.

I have a one speed, 1.5HP pump rated at 230V/9.3A. It
pushes me into
the top tier of rates which is 36¢/KWhour. It draws 2.139
KW. So I'm
paying 77¢/hour. If I cut cut down the pump time by two
hours a day
I'd save $46.20 per month. So the $75 was wrong. It will
costs about
$160 to bring the borate level to 50ppm. So it will take a
little
less than four months to pay for itself. But the other
benefit is
being able to have a lower chlorine level so there are
also savings
in chlorine, probably about $20 per month.

Where the hell do you live that you pay 36¢/KW?

On 5/3/2014 10:32 AM, ChairMan wrote:

snip

Where the hell do you live that you pay 36¢/KW?

Northern California.

There are four tiers (rounded to whole numbers):
Tier 1 is 351KWH at 13¢ each
Tier 2 is 105KWH at 15¢ each
Tier 3 is 246KWH at 32¢ each
Tier 4 is anything over tiers 1-3 at 37¢/KWH
(These tiers were on my March bill)

We almost never run our A/C since the weather is so mild (most houses
don't even have A/C in our neighborhood), and our water heater, furnace,
and clothes dryer run on natural gas. Our biggest use of electricity is
the pool pump.

I do have a two speed pump that I am going to install but I was waiting
for the current pump to break. The two-speed, and variable speed, pumps
have a much shorter service life than the older one-speed pumps
according to the pool store (I don't know why they would admit this when
they are trying to sell $1200 variable speed pumps!).

One other issue I have is that it's an older pool, built when they built
deep pools so you could have a diving board. The deep end is 13' deep,
and the shallow end is very small. So the volume of water is very large,
probably 35-40K gallons. So that's a lot of pumping to filter the water.

I tried just filling the shallow end of the pool, and leaving the deep
end empty, but I couldn't get that to work.

So the claimed benefits of borate a

1. Allows you to maintain the chlorine level at a lower PPM saving on
sanitizer cost.
2. Allows you to run the pump for fewer hours per day saving on electricity.
3. Reduces the need for algaecide saving the cost of algaecide.
4. Stabilizes the ph so there is less need for acid.
5. Does not raise the alkalinity when used to raise the ph.
6. Makes the water "sparkle."

The downsides a

1. Initial cost
2. Animals should not drink water from the pool.

We'll see. I'm always leery of stuff the pool store tries to sell me,
but I did not buy the borate there anyway.

On Saturday, May 3, 2014 1:15:05 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/3/2014 8:37 AM, gonjah wrote:

On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:

The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"



http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically



borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading



http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it



seems to confirm the benefits of borate.







Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate



can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30



boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5



each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use



PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly



PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).







The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable



ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer



hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less



a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.







Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates

must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we

have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an

hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.



If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered

switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at

half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.

I'm in the process of doing that right now.







I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a fairly new pump,



I calculated the cost of running the pump 4 hours a day versus 6 hours a

day.



Why 4 vs 6? If you use run the pump at half speed, it shoule be 3 vs 6.
And running at half speed, instead of pulling 9.3A, it would probably
pull more like 2 amps. You have to run it twice as long to move the
same amount of water, but even so, it winds up using less than half
the electricity.



I have a one speed, 1.5HP pump rated at 230V/9.3A. It pushes me into the

top tier of rates which is 36�/KWhour.


I guess the folks where you live, CA I presume, let the idiot hippies
take control. Sadly, at the moment, that's where we're all headed.



It draws 2.139 KW. So I'm paying

77�/hour. If I cut cut down the pump time by two hours a day I'd save

$46.20 per month. So the $75 was wrong. It will costs about $160 to

bring the borate level to 50ppm. So it will take a little less than four

months to pay for itself. But the other benefit is being able to have a

lower chlorine level so there are also savings in chlorine, probably

about $20 per month.

And still without regard to the borate, if you;re paying 36c/kwh, a dual
speed pump would appear to be at the top of the list. Here in NJ, with
18c kwh rates the new pump I just put in will pay for itself in less
than 2 years. And I would
think that hippie states might have utility rebates that would make it
pay off in a year.

On Sat, 3 May 2014 10:52:51 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, May 3, 2014 1:15:05 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/3/2014 8:37 AM, gonjah wrote:

On 5/3/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:49:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:

The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"



http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically



borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading



http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it



seems to confirm the benefits of borate.







Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate



can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30



boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5



each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use



PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly



PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).







The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable



ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer



hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less



a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.







Either you must have a very big pump or your electric rates

must be sky high, or both. A 1hp pump is about 1.5KW. Here in NJ we

have some of the highest electric rates and it costs about 25c an

hour to run. Two hours a day, would be ~$15 a month.



If it's costing that much to run the pump, have you considered

switching the motor to one that is dual speed? Running it at

half speed for twice as long can cut the electric usage in half.

I'm in the process of doing that right now.







I'm going that route when my pump quits, but it's a fairly new pump,



I calculated the cost of running the pump 4 hours a day versus 6 hours a

day.



Why 4 vs 6? If you use run the pump at half speed, it shoule be 3 vs 6.
And running at half speed, instead of pulling 9.3A, it would probably
pull more like 2 amps. You have to run it twice as long to move the
same amount of water, but even so, it winds up using less than half
the electricity.



I have a one speed, 1.5HP pump rated at 230V/9.3A. It pushes me into the

top tier of rates which is 36�/KWhour.


I guess the folks where you live, CA I presume, let the idiot hippies
take control. Sadly, at the moment, that's where we're all headed.



It draws 2.139 KW. So I'm paying

77�/hour. If I cut cut down the pump time by two hours a day I'd save

$46.20 per month. So the $75 was wrong. It will costs about $160 to

bring the borate level to 50ppm. So it will take a little less than four

months to pay for itself. But the other benefit is being able to have a

lower chlorine level so there are also savings in chlorine, probably

about $20 per month.

And still without regard to the borate, if you;re paying 36c/kwh, a dual
speed pump would appear to be at the top of the list. Here in NJ, with
18c kwh rates the new pump I just put in will pay for itself in less
than 2 years. And I would
think that hippie states might have utility rebates that would make it
pay off in a year.


Don't any of you folks have Time of Day Rates? My off-peak rate here
is about half the on-peak rate in the summer. Winter there isn't much
difference. So I run my pool in the off-peak hours and keep the AC
set higher in the on-peak and then turn it down after 8 at night till
1 in the afternoon the next day when the on-peak hits again.

On 5/2/2014 3:49 PM, sms wrote:
The pool store I go to is always pushing "PoolProof"
http://nisuscorp.com/pool-spa/products/poolproof which is basically
borate dissolved in a liquid. I was reading
http://www.poolspanews.com/efflorescence/borate-chemistry.aspx and it
seems to confirm the benefits of borate.

Of course anything sold for a pool has an enormous mark-up but borate
can be purchased at Walmart as 20 Mule Team Borax. I would need about 30
boxes (76 ounces each, $4) and about eight gallons of acid (about $5
each) to bring the Borate level up to 50ppm and the ph back down. To use
PoolProof would cost me about $300 if no acid was necessary (supposedly
PoolProof liquid is ph neutral) while pure borate powder raises the ph).

The benefits of a 50 ppm borate level are supposed to be a more stable
ph, less algae problems, and the ability to run the pool pump for fewer
hours. That last one could really make it pay for itself. Two hours less
a day of the pump running would probably save me $75 per month.

Anyone used PoolProof or other form of borate in their pool? I bought
all the borax that my local Walmart had in stock (eight boxes) and am
going to try it.

Another cite http://blog.poolcenter.com/article.aspx?articleid=6341

It starts with: "Hey kids ~ want to have less pH bounce, shinier,
silkier water with no algae problems? But wait, there's more! You'll
also be using half as much chlorine as you do now! Hard to believe?"

Basically you have choice of a pre-mixed solution that is ph neutral or
buying borate and acid and adding them alternately to keep the ph from
going up.

replying to sms, Pj wrote:
Was looking at borate to my local pool stores eather act dumb or say they
can't get it looking at ordering off amazon. How did you make out and there is
a calculator that will figure the boxes and asid needed to do it the 20 mule
way

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