Our oil-fired water heater is getting temperamental and may have to be replaced. (It turns off overnight and needs to be reset but not on warm nights, only on cold nights.) A friend said that they got an electric tankless water heater at her house and always have hot water when needed for the three people living there. Any opinions or experience with tankless water heaters? They're supposed to be more energy efficient, from what I read, but the savings alone don't seem to justify the investment.

Paul

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 08:17:59 -0700 (PDT), Pavel314
wrote:

Our oil-fired water heater is getting temperamental and may have to be replaced. (It turns off overnight and needs to be reset but not on warm nights, only on cold nights.) A friend said that they got an electric tankless water heater at her house and always have hot water when needed for the three people living there. Any opinions or experience with tankless water heaters? They're supposed to be more energy efficient, from what I read, but the savings alone don't seem to justify the investment.

Paul

If I were building new, I'd put them in (gas). I have seen a number
of the installed. One house had three zones.

Read some of this before you decide.

http://tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/

"Pavel314" wrote in message
...
Our oil-fired water heater is getting temperamental and may have to be
replaced. (It turns off overnight and needs to be reset but not on warm
nights, only on cold nights.) A friend said that they got an electric
tankless water heater at her house and always have hot water when needed for
the three people living there. Any opinions or experience with tankless
water heaters? They're supposed to be more energy efficient, from what I
read, but the savings alone don't seem to justify the investment.

Paul
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

There are several things to think about. What part of the country do you
live in ? If very cold water is comming into the tankless, it may not heat
it hot enough for you. If you loose power often and have a generator, most
will not run the tankless where your oil or standard tank electric heater
will on a 5 kw or so generator.
Your power feed from the main line may not be large enough and that will be
an extra cost.

I doubt that I would put one in a new house and surely not in a house that
it was not wired for.

If installing in an an older house it will take years to pay back for
whatever you may save.



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

Per Pavel314:
Our oil-fired water heater is getting temperamental and may have to be replaced. (It turns off overnight and needs to be reset but not on warm nights, only on cold nights.) A friend said that they got an electric tankless water heater at her house and always have hot water when needed for the three people living there. Any opinions or experience with tankless water heaters? They're supposed to be more energy efficient, from what I read, but the savings alone don't seem to justify the investment.

20 years ago, everybody where we visited in Germany has point-of-service
hot water heaters. Gas in the older houses, electric in the new. That
would be a device at each faucet in the house.

Now, for reasons I do not know, they have gone over to a single
tank-type heater for the house.

The only other thing I know is that, in the Dominican Republic where I
went on a windsurfing vacation once, the shower-mounted electric heaters
were referred to as "Widow-Makers".

Maybe somebody who actually knows something can comment.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:00:14 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

The only other thing I know is that, in the Dominican Republic where I
went on a windsurfing vacation once, the shower-mounted electric heaters
were referred to as "Widow-Makers".

Maybe somebody who actually knows something can comment.

....um, let me think on that one

My neighbor had a tankless installed a few years ago and was quite happy with it until one fateful morning...the ****ing thing quit in the middle of his morning
shower. There was no warning, the water temp dropped instantly from a nice warm shower temp to 52F, the temp of his well water.

Needless to say, he has a tank style again.

"Pavel314" wrote in message
...
Our oil-fired water heater is getting temperamental and may have to be
replaced. (It turns off overnight and needs to be reset but not on warm
nights, only on cold nights.) A friend said that they got an electric
tankless water heater at her house and always have hot water when needed
for the three people living there. Any opinions or experience with
tankless water heaters? They're supposed to be more energy efficient, from
what I read, but the savings alone don't seem to justify the investment.

Paul
--
Lake house has a whole house tankless electric water heater.
Will never ever go back to a tank unit.

Water on..electric on
Water off..electric off.

Per Oren:
...um, let me think on that one

Yeah... I didn't want to muddy the waters with my preconceptions.... but
I think we're on the same square.... especially since I saw the wires
sparking on the one I used.
--
Pete Cresswell

Per Marc:
My neighbor had a tankless installed a few years ago and was quite happy with it until one fateful morning...the ****ing thing quit in the middle of his morning
shower. There was no warning, the water temp dropped instantly from a nice warm shower temp to 52F, the temp of his well water.

Now that you have said it.... one of the things I like about our nat
gas-fired heater is that it is immune to power outages.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 17:32:31 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Marc:
My neighbor had a tankless installed a few years ago and was quite happy with it until one fateful morning...the ****ing thing quit in the middle of his morning
shower. There was no warning, the water temp dropped instantly from a nice warm shower temp to 52F, the temp of his well water.

Now that you have said it.... one of the things I like about our nat
gas-fired heater is that it is immune to power outages.

NG tankless is immune from power outages - if you buy one that uses an
in-line micro-turbine igniter. When water is called, the water demand
allows the turbine to spark the gas and heats the water. No worry
about power failure. Or backup power for an electric unit.

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 17:31:00 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Oren:
...um, let me think on that one

Yeah... I didn't want to muddy the waters with my preconceptions.... but
I think we're on the same square.... especially since I saw the wires
sparking on the one I used.

You betcha.

Oren wrote:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 08:17:59 -0700 (PDT), Pavel314
wrote:

Our oil-fired water heater is getting temperamental and may have to be replaced. (It turns off overnight and needs to be reset but not on warm nights, only on cold nights.) A friend said that they got an electric tankless water heater at her house and always have hot water when needed for the three people living there. Any opinions or experience with tankless water heaters? They're supposed to be more energy efficient, from what I read, but the savings alone don't seem to justify the investment.

Paul

If I were building new, I'd put them in (gas). I have seen a number
of the installed. One house had three zones.

Read some of this before you decide.

http://tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/

Tankless is way overhyped. The efficiency increase over tank type is
small, standby losses just aren't that significant on any modern WH that
is well insulated.

The drawbacks are significant - the need for a large and more expensive
power or gas feed, the lack of any power / gas outage ridethrough, and
also in reliability.

On the reliability front, since the tankless units have to run at a much
higher BTU/hr rate than tank type, their elements or burners are under
more stress and tend to not last as long as a quality tank type unit.

Additionally a tank type unit provides a reserve supply of potable water
in the event of a water supply outage (municipal or well) that is always
there even when the outage comes with no warning.

The one solid advantage that tankless types do have is in size, and for
most that's not a significant consideration.

I've stayed at some places with tankless heaters, and unless they are
absolutely top of the line units, there are issues with consistent water
temperature are lower flow rates, i.e. when you're trying to get your
shower temperature set correctly in the summer when the "cold" water
supply isn't all that cold so you don't need as much hot water in the
mix.
Another issue with electric tankless units is their power demands is so
high you can often see the cycling of their elements in slight dimming
of the lighting in the room.

On 4/14/2014 5:32 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

Now that you have said it.... one of the things I like about our nat
gas-fired heater is that it is immune to power outages.


I remember during the various power cuts
I've endured, a gas water heater has really
been wonderful.

Someone tried run a garden hose off the laundry
hot, and slowly run hot water through a garden
hose, which is indoors on the floor. Warmed the
house like Wirsbo radiant floor heat. Clever.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

to go tankless electric be prepared to install a new electric service, 200 amps just to heat water.. pllus your regular service, call your power company the neighborhood transormer may need upgraded too.....

tankless electric isnt a good idea

On 4/14/2014 11:17 AM, Pavel314 wrote:
Our oil-fired water heater is getting temperamental and may have to be replaced. (It turns off overnight and needs to be reset but not on warm nights, only on cold nights.) A friend said that they got an electric tankless water heater at her house and always have hot water when needed for the three people living there. Any opinions or experience with tankless water heaters? They're supposed to be more energy efficient, from what I read, but the savings alone don't seem to justify the investment.

Paul


Have oil heat?

Check out www.energykinetics.com and get an indirect fired water tank.I
sace 37% to 39% on oil compared to the old boiler.

Mixed review on tankless. You need a lot of juice to power them.

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 18:16:35 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

to go tankless electric be prepared to install a new electric service, 200 amps just to heat water.. pllus your regular service, call your power company the neighborhood transormer may need upgraded too.....

tankless electric isnt a good idea
Can't install one here - maximum 150 amp service unless I pay about
$8000 to upgrade the underground. Not happening!!!

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 21:42:14 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 4/14/2014 11:17 AM, Pavel314 wrote:
Our oil-fired water heater is getting temperamental and may have to be replaced. (It turns off overnight and needs to be reset but not on warm nights, only on cold nights.) A friend said that they got an electric tankless water heater at her house and always have hot water when needed for the three people living there. Any opinions or experience with tankless water heaters? They're supposed to be more energy efficient, from what I read, but the savings alone don't seem to justify the investment.

Paul


Have oil heat?

Check out www.energykinetics.com and get an indirect fired water tank.I
sace 37% to 39% on oil compared to the old boiler.

Mixed review on tankless. You need a lot of juice to power them.
Doesn't work with oil forced air - - - -

On 4/14/2014 9:16 PM, bob haller wrote:
to go tankless electric be prepared to install a new electric service, 200 amps just to heat water.. pllus your regular service, call your power company the neighborhood transormer may need upgraded too.....

tankless electric isnt a good idea

http://www.ecosmartus.com/products/e...-tankless.aspx
These run on double pole 40 or 60 breaker. My
concern would be cost of use. Electric is more
pricey than natural gas, in many markets.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 23:13:07 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 21:42:14 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



Have oil heat?

Check out www.energykinetics.com and get an indirect fired water tank.I
sace 37% to 39% on oil compared to the old boiler.

Mixed review on tankless. You need a lot of juice to power them.
Doesn't work with oil forced air - - - -

Yes, it can
http://www.energykinetics.com/comfortAir.shtml

On Monday, April 14, 2014 6:23:33 PM UTC-4, Pete C. wrote:
Oren wrote:



On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 08:17:59 -0700 (PDT), Pavel314

wrote:



Our oil-fired water heater is getting temperamental and may have to be replaced. (It turns off overnight and needs to be reset but not on warm nights, only on cold nights.) A friend said that they got an electric tankless water heater at her house and always have hot water when needed for the three people living there. Any opinions or experience with tankless water heaters? They're supposed to be more energy efficient, from what I read, but the savings alone don't seem to justify the investment.



Paul



If I were building new, I'd put them in (gas). I have seen a number

of the installed. One house had three zones.



Read some of this before you decide.



http://tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/



Tankless is way overhyped. The efficiency increase over tank type is

small, standby losses just aren't that significant on any modern WH that

is well insulated.



I agree that the standby losses of the tank can't be all that much.
In the summer, with a gas tank type, my total gas bill is typically $18.
That includes whatever it takes to heat the water that is used, some
gas grilling outside, and the standby losses. So, I'm guessing the
loss part might be ~$5/mth.




The drawbacks are significant - the need for a large and more expensive

power or gas feed, the lack of any power / gas outage ridethrough, and

also in reliability.



I believe there are some that have battery ignition, so they will
operate when the power is out.




On the reliability front, since the tankless units have to run at a much

higher BTU/hr rate than tank type, their elements or burners are under

more stress and tend to not last as long as a quality tank type unit.



Additionally a tank type unit provides a reserve supply of potable water

in the event of a water supply outage (municipal or well) that is always

there even when the outage comes with no warning.



The one solid advantage that tankless types do have is in size, and for

most that's not a significant consideration.



Another advantage is they have an unlimited supply of hot water.
Depending on the application and needs, that can be a major point.




I've stayed at some places with tankless heaters, and unless they are

absolutely top of the line units, there are issues with consistent water

temperature are lower flow rates, i.e. when you're trying to get your

shower temperature set correctly in the summer when the "cold" water

supply isn't all that cold so you don't need as much hot water in the

mix.

Another issue with electric tankless units is their power demands is so

high you can often see the cycling of their elements in slight dimming

of the lighting in the room.

If the service can even support a whole house electric. I would think
they could make sense in warmer climates, where the incoming water temp
doesn't get down to 40F in winter. It's all about the worst case temp
delta and flow rate required.

On Tuesday, April 15, 2014 5:53:17 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 4/14/2014 9:16 PM, bob haller wrote:

to go tankless electric be prepared to install a new electric service, 200 amps just to heat water.. pllus your regular service, call your power company the neighborhood transormer may need upgraded too.....



tankless electric isnt a good idea



http://www.ecosmartus.com/products/e...-tankless.aspx

These run on double pole 40 or 60 breaker. My

concern would be cost of use. Electric is more

pricey than natural gas, in many markets.



But those don't support a whole house. They are point of use, ie enough
for say one bathroom with a shower. And if you put 3 of them in a house,
then you're back to the problem of the electric service needing the
capacity to support all of them.

On 4/15/2014 9:13 AM, trader_4 wrote:
http://www.ecosmartus.com/products/e...-tankless.aspx
These run on double pole 40 or 60 breaker. My
concern would be cost of use. Electric is more
pricey than natural gas, in many markets.


But those don't support a whole house. They are point of use, ie enough
for say one bathroom with a shower. And if you put 3 of them in a house,
then you're back to the problem of the electric service needing the
capacity to support all of them.

I didn't see if those were sink or whole house or
what. Interesting that a whole house instant would
take that much amps. Seriously, that could get
very expensive, especially in a house with teen-
agers who love endless showers.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Interesting that a whole house instant would
take that much amps.

thats because the water MUST be heated instantly, with electric its impossible, without at least a 200 amp service, and in a worse case, with low incoming water temp, in wither you could need 2 200 amp tankless in series.

that would be 400 amps to heat water plus 200 amps for you normal home.

wonder how much the power upgrade will cost?

you could run a recurciliate line, either continious or activted by pussing a button so how water always arrives at the faucets immediately

"bob haller" wrote in message
...
Interesting that a whole house instant would
take that much amps.

thats because the water MUST be heated instantly, with electric its
impossible, without at least a 200 amp service, and in a worse case, with
low incoming water temp, in wither you could need 2 200 amp tankless in
series.

that would be 400 amps to heat water plus 200 amps for you normal home.

wonder how much the power upgrade will cost?
--
My lakehouse, whole house electric takes 2- 50amp lines.
Works fine, no problems.
Cold well water for feed.

On Tuesday, April 15, 2014 9:37:24 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 4/15/2014 9:13 AM, trader_4 wrote:

http://www.ecosmartus.com/products/e...-tankless.aspx

These run on double pole 40 or 60 breaker. My

concern would be cost of use. Electric is more

pricey than natural gas, in many markets.





But those don't support a whole house. They are point of use, ie enough

for say one bathroom with a shower. And if you put 3 of them in a house,

then you're back to the problem of the electric service needing the

capacity to support all of them.



I didn't see if those were sink or whole house or

what. Interesting that a whole house instant would

take that much amps. Seriously, that could get

very expensive, especially in a house with teen-

agers who love endless showers.



Two points to that:

1 - The electric power that it takes to heat the water that you
use is going to be the same, regardless of whether you heat it slowly
in a tank, or fast in a tankless. The tankless has the advantage of
not having the standy losses, but as I said they can't be that much.
My whole gas bill is just $18 in summer. I would think the vast
majority of that is heating water that is actually used. A related
point that in many cases could make the tank type less expensive is
that a lot of utilities have reduced rates for electric power during
non-peak periods. With a timer, the electric water heater can be set
to only come on when the rates are low. Even decades ago, I remember
water heaters being on a seperate meter, with a timer, where you
got a much lower rate for electricity. With move to smart meters, I
would think that's the future for more people.

2 - With a tank type, it will put an upper limit on exceesive usage.
Once the hot water is gone, it's gone.

On 4/15/2014 11:24 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Two points to that:
1 - The electric power that it takes to heat the water that you
use is going to be the same, regardless of whether you heat it slowly
in a tank, or fast in a tankless.

SM1: Yes, fast or slow, a watt is still, uh,
can't remember watt.

The tankless has the advantage of
not having the standy losses, but as I said they can't be that much.

SM2: More standby loss in winter, when the
tank loses more heat.

My whole gas bill is just $18 in summer. I would think the vast
majority of that is heating water that is actually used.

SM3: Perhaps pilot lights? I've got a couple of those.

A related
point that in many cases could make the tank type less expensive is
that a lot of utilities have reduced rates for electric power during
non-peak periods. With a timer, the electric water heater can be set
to only come on when the rates are low. Even decades ago, I remember
water heaters being on a seperate meter, with a timer, where you
got a much lower rate for electricity. With move to smart meters, I
would think that's the future for more people.

SM4: I used to know a guy who had 82 gal water
heater, which only ran night time, "off peak"
side of the meter. Lived alone, so he didn't
often run out of hot. No teenagers with bottomless
showers (ha, ha).


2 - With a tank type, it will put an upper limit on exceesive usage.
Once the hot water is gone, it's gone.

SM5: Yes, the recovery rate and all. Good idea in
some families. I split your two points down a bit
finer, sorry.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 17:23:33 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Oren wrote:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 08:17:59 -0700 (PDT), Pavel314
wrote:

Our oil-fired water heater is getting temperamental and may have to be replaced. (It turns off overnight and needs to be reset but not on warm nights, only on cold nights.) A friend said that they got an electric tankless water heater at her house and always have hot water when needed for the three people living there. Any opinions or experience with tankless water heaters? They're supposed to be more energy efficient, from what I read, but the savings alone don't seem to justify the investment.

Paul

If I were building new, I'd put them in (gas). I have seen a number
of the installed. One house had three zones.

Read some of this before you decide.

http://tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/

Tankless is way overhyped. The efficiency increase over tank type is
small, standby losses just aren't that significant on any modern WH that
is well insulated.

The drawbacks are significant - the need for a large and more expensive
power or gas feed, the lack of any power / gas outage ridethrough, and
also in reliability.

On the reliability front, since the tankless units have to run at a much
higher BTU/hr rate than tank type, their elements or burners are under
more stress and tend to not last as long as a quality tank type unit.

Additionally a tank type unit provides a reserve supply of potable water
in the event of a water supply outage (municipal or well) that is always
there even when the outage comes with no warning.

The one solid advantage that tankless types do have is in size, and for
most that's not a significant consideration.

I've stayed at some places with tankless heaters, and unless they are
absolutely top of the line units, there are issues with consistent water
temperature are lower flow rates, i.e. when you're trying to get your
shower temperature set correctly in the summer when the "cold" water
supply isn't all that cold so you don't need as much hot water in the
mix.
Another issue with electric tankless units is their power demands is so
high you can often see the cycling of their elements in slight dimming
of the lighting in the room.

I don't think tankless are a good idea as a retrofit due to the sizing
needs for electric, gas line, water line, meter or electric panel. If
building new construction I would use NG and put them on dedicated
zones.

The house with 3 zones, I've seen, the tankless are mounted outside -
inside the stucco with an access panel (Mojave Desert) for service.
They are quality units. The house was built with larger water supply
lines and a larger gas meter. 5,000 sq. ft. house. Powder room and
master bath have one unit. Kitchen and laundry have its own zone.
Three others baths have one zone. The guy that built the house as
owner/builder loves them. When he later built an out
building/shop/game room, he put a tankless there also.

I watched the Ron Hazelton show some time ago where he put one in his
house. When it was over, I thought and noticed not one single time
did he mention (IIRC) anything about sizing the system or possible
needs for a retrofit of a tank unit. He walked into HD and bought it
off the shelf. I got the impression that viewers might attempt to do
the same without some serious research and what the needs are or
considerations needed before installing tankless.

On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 11:35:50 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 4/15/2014 11:24 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Two points to that:
1 - The electric power that it takes to heat the water that you
use is going to be the same, regardless of whether you heat it slowly
in a tank, or fast in a tankless.

SM1: Yes, fast or slow, a watt is still, uh,
can't remember watt.

The tankless has the advantage of
not having the standy losses, but as I said they can't be that much.

SM2: More standby loss in winter, when the
tank loses more heat.

Actually in my case, the opposite. The "lost" heat in the winter just
reduces the amount of heat my furnace needs to produce to heat my
basement. In the summer, ANY lost heat is LOST and adds to the amount
of AC required (when the AC is run )

My whole gas bill is just $18 in summer. I would think the vast
majority of that is heating water that is actually used.

SM3: Perhaps pilot lights? I've got a couple of those.

A related
point that in many cases could make the tank type less expensive is
that a lot of utilities have reduced rates for electric power during
non-peak periods. With a timer, the electric water heater can be set
to only come on when the rates are low. Even decades ago, I remember
water heaters being on a seperate meter, with a timer, where you
got a much lower rate for electricity. With move to smart meters, I
would think that's the future for more people.

The old "demand" heaters - and even "flat rate" heaters - you rented
from the PUC and it was connected BEFORE the meter -------

SM4: I used to know a guy who had 82 gal water
heater, which only ran night time, "off peak"
side of the meter. Lived alone, so he didn't
often run out of hot. No teenagers with bottomless
showers (ha, ha).


2 - With a tank type, it will put an upper limit on exceesive usage.
Once the hot water is gone, it's gone.

SM5: Yes, the recovery rate and all. Good idea in
some families. I split your two points down a bit
finer, sorry.

On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:03:19 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 17:23:33 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Oren wrote:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 08:17:59 -0700 (PDT), Pavel314
wrote:

Our oil-fired water heater is getting temperamental and may have to be replaced. (It turns off overnight and needs to be reset but not on warm nights, only on cold nights.) A friend said that they got an electric tankless water heater at her house and always have hot water when needed for the three people living there. Any opinions or experience with tankless water heaters? They're supposed to be more energy efficient, from what I read, but the savings alone don't seem to justify the investment.

Paul

If I were building new, I'd put them in (gas). I have seen a number
of the installed. One house had three zones.

Read some of this before you decide.

http://tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/

Tankless is way overhyped. The efficiency increase over tank type is
small, standby losses just aren't that significant on any modern WH that
is well insulated.

The drawbacks are significant - the need for a large and more expensive
power or gas feed, the lack of any power / gas outage ridethrough, and
also in reliability.

On the reliability front, since the tankless units have to run at a much
higher BTU/hr rate than tank type, their elements or burners are under
more stress and tend to not last as long as a quality tank type unit.

Additionally a tank type unit provides a reserve supply of potable water
in the event of a water supply outage (municipal or well) that is always
there even when the outage comes with no warning.

The one solid advantage that tankless types do have is in size, and for
most that's not a significant consideration.

I've stayed at some places with tankless heaters, and unless they are
absolutely top of the line units, there are issues with consistent water
temperature are lower flow rates, i.e. when you're trying to get your
shower temperature set correctly in the summer when the "cold" water
supply isn't all that cold so you don't need as much hot water in the
mix.
Another issue with electric tankless units is their power demands is so
high you can often see the cycling of their elements in slight dimming
of the lighting in the room.

I don't think tankless are a good idea as a retrofit due to the sizing
needs for electric, gas line, water line, meter or electric panel. If
building new construction I would use NG and put them on dedicated
zones.

The house with 3 zones, I've seen, the tankless are mounted outside -
inside the stucco with an access panel (Mojave Desert) for service.
They are quality units. The house was built with larger water supply
lines and a larger gas meter. 5,000 sq. ft. house. Powder room and
master bath have one unit. Kitchen and laundry have its own zone.
Three others baths have one zone. The guy that built the house as
owner/builder loves them. When he later built an out
building/shop/game room, he put a tankless there also.

I watched the Ron Hazelton show some time ago where he put one in his
house. When it was over, I thought and noticed not one single time
did he mention (IIRC) anything about sizing the system or possible
needs for a retrofit of a tank unit. He walked into HD and bought it
off the shelf. I got the impression that viewers might attempt to do
the same without some serious research and what the needs are or
considerations needed before installing tankless.
In the house in Livingstone (Zambia) we shut the geiser off for the
hot season. Gravity feed tank in the "attic" absorbed a LOT of heat.
90F out of the tap was on the cool side. With the water pipes on the
outside of masonry walls you could almost scald yourself when you
first opened the COLD water tap some days!!!

On Tuesday, April 15, 2014 11:35:50 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 4/15/2014 11:24 AM, trader_4 wrote:



Two points to that:

1 - The electric power that it takes to heat the water that you

use is going to be the same, regardless of whether you heat it slowly

in a tank, or fast in a tankless.



SM1: Yes, fast or slow, a watt is still, uh,

can't remember watt.



The tankless has the advantage of

not having the standy losses, but as I said they can't be that much.



SM2: More standby loss in winter, when the

tank loses more heat.


My WH is in the basement. Maybe it's 65 in summer, 55 in winter, ie
not much difference in ambient temperature. 130 - 55, 130 -65, isn't
going to make much difference in a number that's already fairly small.






My whole gas bill is just $18 in summer. I would think the vast

majority of that is heating water that is actually used.



SM3: Perhaps pilot lights? I've got a couple of those.


Only pilot light is in the WH.





A related

point that in many cases could make the tank type less expensive is

that a lot of utilities have reduced rates for electric power during

non-peak periods. With a timer, the electric water heater can be set

to only come on when the rates are low. Even decades ago, I remember

water heaters being on a seperate meter, with a timer, where you

got a much lower rate for electricity. With move to smart meters, I

would think that's the future for more people.



SM4: I used to know a guy who had 82 gal water

heater, which only ran night time, "off peak"

side of the meter. Lived alone, so he didn't

often run out of hot. No teenagers with bottomless

showers (ha, ha).



That' exactly how it worked at my parents house decades ago.
We almost never ran out of hot water either.





2 - With a tank type, it will put an upper limit on exceesive usage.

Once the hot water is gone, it's gone.



SM5: Yes, the recovery rate and all. Good idea in

some families. I split your two points down a bit

finer, sorry.



--

.

Christopher A. Young

Learn about Jesus

www.lds.org

.

"bob haller" wrote in message
...
Interesting that a whole house instant would
take that much amps.

thats because the water MUST be heated instantly, with electric its
impossible, without at least a 200 amp service, and in a worse case, with
low incoming water temp, in wither you could need 2 200 amp tankless in
series.

that would be 400 amps to heat water plus 200 amps for you normal home.

wonder how much the power upgrade will cost?

I worked at a large plant and two tankless units were installed at two
sinks. Then it was discovered that there was not electricity capacity near
the sinks and it would cost a lot to provide it. They were removed and
small tanks were installed.



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bob haller wrote:
you could run a recurciliate line, either continious or activted by
pussing a button so how water always arrives at the faucets immediately

As far as I know, the "button method" does not provide hot water
immediately. Don't you have to wait until the cold water is replaced with
hot water in the pipes? Granted, you may get hot water as soon as you turn
the faucet on, but only after waiting for the cold water to be replaced by
hot. You _save_ water, but you still have to wait.

As far as a continuous pump, that seems like a double waste. Doesn't that
waste electricity since the pump is running 24-7? Don't you have heat lost
to the air from the hot water running in the pipes 24-7?

On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 7:54:54 AM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
bob haller wrote:

you could run a recurciliate line, either continious or activted by

pussing a button so how water always arrives at the faucets immediately



As far as I know, the "button method" does not provide hot water

immediately. Don't you have to wait until the cold water is replaced with

hot water in the pipes? Granted, you may get hot water as soon as you turn

the faucet on, but only after waiting for the cold water to be replaced by

hot. You _save_ water, but you still have to wait.



I think this is a good app for an X10 motion sensor. As soon as
someone enters the bathroom, it turns on the pump.





As far as a continuous pump, that seems like a double waste. Doesn't that

waste electricity since the pump is running 24-7? Don't you have heat lost

to the air from the hot water running in the pipes 24-7?

These pumps made for that purpose typically have a timer and also a
thermostat. You can set the timer so that water will only circulate
during certain times of the day, when it's likely someone will need it.
And the thermostat turns it off, once hot water reaches the faucet.
Those two things won't eliminate wasted heat, but can greatly reduce it.

you could run a recirculating line, either continuous or
activated by pushing a button so how water always arrives
at the faucets immediately

As far as a continuous pump, that seems like a double waste.
Doesn't that waste electricity since the pump is running 24-7?

These pumps made for that purpose typically have a timer and also a
thermostat. You can set the timer so that water will only circulate
during certain times of the day, when it's likely someone will need
it.

I installed a 1/2" recirculating line when I plumbed our house, since our
hot water heater is about 40-50 feet away from the farthest fixture. Then
I installed a pump at the water heater to circulate the hot water.

The 3/4" main lines hold a lot of water over that distance, and the draw
is slow with low flow sinks and shower heads.

Without the pump running, it takes well over a minute for hot water to
reach the shower head in our master shower (the farthest fixture). That
doesn't sound bad unless you're standing around on a cold morning waiting
for hot water. Then it seems like an eternity.

With the pump running, we get hot water in 5-10 seconds (the time to
empty the short pipe between the recirculating line and the shower head).

Mine doesn't have a thermostat, but I do have a timer that only runs the
pump a few hours in the morning, and a few hours in the evening (the
times we are most likely to use hot water). We can still use the hot
water other times of the day, we just have to wait longer for it.

I originally had a pump with a built-in timer, but that timer failed
within a few years so I added an external timer. These days I have the
pump connected to an Insteon switch that I control with my computer.

I'm sure there is some minor heat loss from the recirculating line, since
it actually warms the floor in our laundry room. However, I don't see any
significant difference in our electric bill (electric water heater). I'm
sure the timer and the insulated pipes help with that.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

Per trader_4:
I think this is a good app for an X10 motion sensor. As soon as
someone enters the bathroom, it turns on the pump.

My low-tech workaround:

- Turn on the shower

- Brush my teeth

- Take my morning dump

- Step into the shower.
--
Pete Cresswell

Oren posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:00:14 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

The only other thing I know is that, in the Dominican Republic where I
went on a windsurfing vacation once, the shower-mounted electric heaters
were referred to as "Widow-Makers".

Maybe somebody who actually knows something can comment.

...um, let me think on that one

Get pix before you invest too much time! Pete send pix so we can form on
opinion; we are strictly impartial, sealed envelopes and all...

--
Tekkie

(PeteCresswell) posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


Per trader_4:
I think this is a good app for an X10 motion sensor. As soon as
someone enters the bathroom, it turns on the pump.

My low-tech workaround:

- Turn on the shower
Okay

- Brush my teeth
2 minutes per ADA guidelines.

- Take my morning dump
Depends on reading material

- Step into the shower.
No pix needed..

Why not go into energy saving mode and reverse the last two process'.

Be Zestfully clean!

--
Tekkie

Per Tekkie®:
Why not go into energy saving mode and reverse the last two process'.

Aesthetics.... -)
--
Pete Cresswell

trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 7:54:54 AM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
bob haller wrote:

you could run a recurciliate line, either continious or activted by
pussing a button so how water always arrives at the faucets immediately

As far as I know, the "button method" does not provide hot water
immediately. Don't you have to wait until the cold water is replaced with
hot water in the pipes? Granted, you may get hot water as soon as you turn
the faucet on, but only after waiting for the cold water to be replaced by
hot. You _save_ water, but you still have to wait.

I think this is a good app for an X10 motion sensor. As soon as
someone enters the bathroom, it turns on the pump.


As far as a continuous pump, that seems like a double waste. Doesn't that
waste electricity since the pump is running 24-7? Don't you have heat lost
to the air from the hot water running in the pipes 24-7?

These pumps made for that purpose typically have a timer and also a
thermostat. You can set the timer so that water will only circulate
during certain times of the day, when it's likely someone will need it.
And the thermostat turns it off, once hot water reaches the faucet.
Those two things won't eliminate wasted heat, but can greatly reduce it.

My 1st floor kitchen and 2nd floor bathroom are directly above the basement
WH. Hot water is pretty close to instantaneous.

My basement bathroom is about as far from the WH as it can be, pipe wise. I
had to explain to my wife that it makes no sense for her to turn the
bathroom sink faucet to hot to wash her hands unless she is planning on
waiting.

I explained to her that all she was doing was pulling hot water into the
pipes, causing the WH to turn on but never using the hot water because
she's done before it reaches the sink. Some folks just don't realize what's
going on in the background when they turn on a faucet or a light, etc.