The sad answer is: Not much.

Russia has the Gross Domestic Product of Italy, and so it's not a economic power house, but it does have vast oil and gas reserves that Ukraine and other European countries rely on for fuel. Basically, Russia can get by better without the revenues from gas and oil sales a lot better than Ukrainians and Europeans can get by without the gas and oil.

I just hope that the people at the negotiating tables over there realize that any "peaceful solution" that's imposed on Ukraine from the barrel of a Russian gun won't last for long.

On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 11:09:50 PM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
The sad answer is: Not much.



Russia has the Gross Domestic Product of Italy, and so it's not a

economic power house, but it does have vast oil and gas reserves that

Ukraine and other European countries rely on for fuel. And, of course,

it still has a massive army, navy and air force that can deliver nuclear

weapons.



I'm just hoping that whatever happens over there, that bullets don't fly

(although I understand they already have). Once blood is spilled on

either side of a conflict, it makes the peaceful resolution of that

conflict so much more difficult. No one wants their son or daughter to

have been killed fighting for their country, only to have that conflict

resolved at a negotiating table. It makes that death pointless.



The bottom line is, regardless of what treaties and assurances were

signed in the past, no country now wants to back up it's treaties and

assurances by sending their sons and daughters into harm's way. It's

just not politically do-able. Let this be a lesson for students of

international politics... signatures on paper don't mean squat.









--

nestork

Isolationism. Then dissect Republicans alive on world TV. THe Russinas will no longer be a threat.

On 3/12/2014 10:09 PM, nestork wrote:

The bottom line is, regardless of what treaties and assurances were
signed in the past, no country now wants to back up it's treaties and
assurances by sending their sons and daughters into harm's way. It's
just not politically do-able. Let this be a lesson for students of
international politics... signatures on paper don't mean squat.

No, you chickenhawks can't have another war. We're still busy paying
off the last ones you got us into, back when you decided deficits
didn't matter. Remember that? And now for the past several years (when
a Democrat is president) you've suddenly decided deficits *do* matter.
Well, then - you can't afford your war. Too bad, so sad. Keep on
playing keyboard commandos. It's all you're good for.

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 04:09:50 +0100, nestork
wrote:

The sad answer is: Not much.

I can think of a few, but are not popular.

- Repeal federal law prohibiting assassination of foreign dignitaries.

- Let NATO invade Russia, kill all the leaders, and listen to a
lamentations of the women.

- Through Black OP's; shut down the banking system, exploit, kill the
power grid, transportation systems, and transfer the money out of the
country.

“To the victor goes the spoils”!
--
"..,what is good is the front end if you don't have the back end"-- Kimberly Guilfoyle

Oren:

I think the point that most people are missing here is that this is a conflict between two generations.

The Ukrainians camping out in Independance Square in Kiev are mostly young people, who were born after 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed.

Putin, on the other hand, is a relic of the cold war.

The more the Ukrainians in Independance Square are subjugated by Putin and his Russian army, the greater the resentment against Moscow, and the longer and deeper the hostility and animosity between Kiev and Moscow will be. That much goes no matter what. You can influence someone's decisions far more with friendship and encouragement than you can with threats and anger.

Exactly the same thing has happened in Georgia, and Georgians have invited Islamic radicals from other countries, like Pakistan, to Georgia to teach Georgians how to make bombs, and conduct terrorist attacks.

I just don't want to see the country from where I ultimately came from in this situation.

But, I even more don't want to see it going down the same road as Georgia, where they resort to terrorist attackes on innocent people in Moscow as a way of fighting back.

But, in the final analysis, this is a struggle between young "western thinking" people in Ukraine and the former communist regime in Russia. The young people in Ukraine do have the support of the older people. During the recent riots in Kiev, it was the young people throwing rocks and molotov cocktails and setting fire to barracades made of old tires. But, it was the older people that were bringing them food to eat and tending to their injuries.

In article ,
Oren wrote:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 04:09:50 +0100, nestork
wrote:

The sad answer is: Not much.

I can think of a few, but are not popular.

- Repeal federal law prohibiting assassination of foreign dignitaries.

Unless there was a follow up law, this was only an Executive Order
which can easily be overturned by another. Of course, assassinating a
honcho is pretty much the archetypical Casus belli.
--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 23:16:29 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

- Repeal federal law prohibiting assassination of foreign dignitaries.

Unless there was a follow up law, this was only an Executive Order
which can easily be overturned by another. Of course, assassinating a
honcho is pretty much the archetypical Casus belli.

Are those words Spanish for Revolution?

In article ,
Oren wrote:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 23:16:29 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

- Repeal federal law prohibiting assassination of foreign dignitaries.

Unless there was a follow up law, this was only an Executive Order
which can easily be overturned by another. Of course, assassinating a
honcho is pretty much the archetypical Casus belli.

Are those words Spanish for Revolution?

Latin for act of war.
--
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital."
-- Aaron Levenstein

On Fri, 14 Mar 2014 07:35:04 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article ,
Oren wrote:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 23:16:29 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

- Repeal federal law prohibiting assassination of foreign dignitaries.

Unless there was a follow up law, this was only an Executive Order
which can easily be overturned by another. Of course, assassinating a
honcho is pretty much the archetypical Casus belli.

Are those words Spanish for Revolution?

Latin for act of war.

More specifically Latin, an occasion or occurance of war. Meaning:
"an event or action that justifies or allegedly justifies a war or
conflict " Origin: 1840-50; Neo-Latin:

So it wouldn't have to be an actual act of war. If you spit in Putin's
face or accidentally stepped on his toe, or laughed at Qadafi's shoes,
and he said that was his reason for attacking wherever you live, the
spitting or stepping or laughing alone would be a casus belli. With
some crackpots, it really would be the reason.

I had heard it translated cause of war, and though that fits, nowhere
could I find today a translation of casus as cause.

Micky:

The English language has changed over the past few hundred years, and so it's not unreasonable that other languages have as well.

Prior to Gutenberg's printing press, the way you shaped your letters was largely a matter of who taught you to read and write.

Prior to Webster's dictionary, how you spelled a word was a matter of personal preference, just as how you open and close a letter (as with Dear Sir or Yours Truly) is a matter of personal preference and your relationship with the recipient. If the recipient could understand what you ment to sai, that was al that matered.

So, "casus belli" means the purported cause of a war, and how it came to acquire that meaning is lost in history. I believe we can all live with that.

On Fri, 14 Mar 2014 07:35:04 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article ,
Oren wrote:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 23:16:29 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

- Repeal federal law prohibiting assassination of foreign dignitaries.

Unless there was a follow up law, this was only an Executive Order
which can easily be overturned by another. Of course, assassinating a
honcho is pretty much the archetypical Casus belli.

Are those words Spanish for Revolution?

Latin for act of war.

I did not look at the USC or CFR, but did find EO 11905 by President
Ford.

"...The Executive Order was created and signed by Gerald Ford after
the Church Committee and Pike Committee had divulged secrets about the
U.S. Intelligence Community in the 1970s, particularly regarding the
Central Intelligence Agency's assassination operations. The committees
had been investigating the CIA's activity and EO 11905 was signed in
an attempt to ban assassination and reform the intelligence
community.."

"...United States' first ban on assassination (political): "No
employee of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire
to engage in, political assassination."

Modified:

EO 11905 (Ford) (1976) ·
EO 12036 (Carter) (1978) ·
EO 12333 (Reagan) (1981) ·
EO 13355 (G.W. Bush) (2004) ·
EO 13470 (G. W. Bush) (2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_11905

On Fri, 14 Mar 2014 22:52:40 +0100, nestork
wrote:


micky;3210623 Wrote:

I had heard it translated cause of war, and though that fits, nowhere
could I find today a translation of casus as cause.

Micky:

The English language has changed over the past few hundred years, and so
it's not unreasonable that other languages have as well.

Prior to Gutenberg's printing press, the way you shaped your letters was
largely a matter of who taught you to read and write.

Prior to Webster's dictionary,

Well the first edition of that was 1828, and the second edition was
1841. By 1845 it became the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

how you spelled a word was a matter of
personal preference,

But the phrase in question appeared in English, it seems, between 1840
and 1850, after the first edition and probably after the second**.
Plus I'm living 170 years after that, so I certainly care how words are
spelled. **I'm not saying casus belli made it into any particular
edition of any early dictionary, only that a growing number of people
cared about details of words by then.

just as how you open and close a letter (as with
Dear Sir or Yours Truly) is a matter of personal preference and your
relationship with the recipient. If the recipient could understand what
you ment to sai, that was al that matered.

Three interesting paragraphs, probably all true, but inapplicable to
casus belli. Even though the phrase is first found in print in
English, iiuc, around 1840, there's no doubt how the words were spelled
in Latin. Or how they were spelled when first used in English.

So, "casus belli" means the purported cause of a war,

That's what I said, in the part you snipped.

and how it came to
acquire that meaning is lost in history.

I don't know about that. I didn't look that far. M-W.com and
dictionary.com, both of which I looked at, and the dictionaries they
cite, don't claim to give all there is that is known about the history
of a word or phrase. Since it's a Latin phrase, all they give is the
most applicable meaning of the Latin words.

Perhaps the phrase itself was used in Latin, in written works still
available, and it was introducted lock, stock, and barrel to English in
the mid-1800's. This seem the most likely.

Or perhaps it was coined in English from two Latin words and the guy who
did that explained himself. By 1840 or 50 people might well explain
why they coined a phrase.

I believe we can all live with
that.

Of course, but you make it sound like either we need to live with only
that, or that I gave some false info and you're tactfully walking me
back. . I don't agree with any of that.


BTW, I'm hoping to publish my own dictionary within a few years, so this
is not some flighty interest of mine.

On Fri, 14 Mar 2014 15:14:26 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 14 Mar 2014 07:35:04 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article ,
Oren wrote:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 23:16:29 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

- Repeal federal law prohibiting assassination of foreign dignitaries.

Unless there was a follow up law, this was only an Executive Order
which can easily be overturned by another. Of course, assassinating a
honcho is pretty much the archetypical Casus belli.

Are those words Spanish for Revolution?

Latin for act of war.

I did not look at the USC or CFR, but did find EO 11905 by President
Ford.

"...The Executive Order was created and signed by Gerald Ford after
the Church Committee and Pike Committee had divulged secrets about the
U.S. Intelligence Community in the 1970s, particularly regarding the
Central Intelligence Agency's assassination operations. The committees
had been investigating the CIA's activity and EO 11905 was signed in
an attempt to ban assassination and reform the intelligence
community.."

"...United States' first ban on assassination (political): "No
employee of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire
to engage in, political assassination."

Very interesting.

Modified:

EO 11905 (Ford) (1976) ·
EO 12036 (Carter) (1978) ·
EO 12333 (Reagan) (1981) ·
EO 13355 (G.W. Bush) (2004) ·
EO 13470 (G. W. Bush) (2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_11905

At that rate, it's almost due for another change.

This may not seem related but it does to me.

WRT Snowdon, can't a reward be posted for his return and then some
bounty hunter go after him and get him? Bounty hunting is still
legal within the US. I don't know about other countries. Bounty
hunters have rights and powers that the police don't have, although I
don't think any bounties are posted that explicitly provide for payment
*dead* or alive, and I'm sure they're not allowed to kill the person as
a matter of choice. If they kill someone in self-defense, that's like
any self-defense, but I don't know if they still get the bounty.
That's in the US.

But I don't want Snowdon killed. I want him dragged back here to stand
trial.

On Fri, 14 Mar 2014 20:00:55 -0400, micky
wrote:

BTW, I'm hoping to publish my own dictionary within a few years, so this
is not some flighty interest of mine.

....Casus belli Translation

Available on the following languages:
English Greek Chinese (s) Chinese (t) Arabic Spanish Russian Dutch
Portuguese Turkish Italian French German Japanese Hebrew Swedish Other
languages

http://translation.babylon.com/english/Casus%20belli%20/

Did not check Casus.