I have a little project in mind, but I need a bit of
1 X 4 to do it with. So yesterday I stopped by the nearest
home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3 S4S (square four sides),
but I don't think a one of them had all 4 corners the full length.
They did have some 1 X 8s that were fairly clean looking
so I got one of those. I suppose I could have gone on over
to Lowes, but I don't have much faith they would have had
anything any better. I'll have to rip the 1 X 8s down, but
I would have had to rip the 1 X 4s too, so that isn't a big
problem.

Of course the first problem will be to clean up the shop so
I can work out there. I have done a number of small projects
that didn't need much space, so I have just been shoving
things out of the way. To do a proper job I really need
to do a complete clean up.

Bill

On 2/24/2014 9:09 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
I have a little project in mind, but I need a bit of
1 X 4 to do it with. So yesterday I stopped by the nearest
home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3 S4S (square four sides),
but I don't think a one of them had all 4 corners the full length.
They did have some 1 X 8s that were fairly clean looking
so I got one of those. I suppose I could have gone on over
to Lowes, but I don't have much faith they would have had
anything any better. I'll have to rip the 1 X 8s down, but
I would have had to rip the 1 X 4s too, so that isn't a big
problem.

Of course the first problem will be to clean up the shop so
I can work out there. I have done a number of small projects
that didn't need much space, so I have just been shoving
things out of the way. To do a proper job I really need
to do a complete clean up.

Bill

I am always hearing from people that lumber was better in the 'old days'
where 'old days' is only vaguely defined. I just had the opportunity
(necessity) to become more familiar with the internal structure of my
smallest bathroom, stripping it back to studs and joists, including
removing the damned mud bed floor. I can say from that experience that 1964
was definitely not the 'old days' of superior lumber quality. There was
some real crap buried in that tiny 38 square foot space. At first I was
confused by the number of studs that had slices almost all the way through
them until I realized that they were somebodies idea to de-crown bent wood.
Other studs had knots taking up at least half the width of the stock and at
least one had a waney edge that took away a third of the stock. I took the
opportunity to glue and screw splints on the compromised studs but left the
waney one alone because I couldn't get to it well enough without causing
possible damage to the wall in an adjacent bath. The wood I'm putting in is
regular borg-grade stuff but at least I've been able to select the least
crappy stock off the shelf.

On 2/24/2014 8:31 AM, BenignBodger wrote:
On 2/24/2014 9:09 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
....
... yesterday I stopped by the nearest
home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3 S4S (square four sides),
but I don't think a one of them had all 4 corners the full length.

....

I am always hearing from people that lumber was better in the 'old days'
where 'old days' is only vaguely defined. I just had the opportunity
(necessity) to become more familiar with the internal structure of my
smallest bathroom, stripping it back to studs and joists, including
removing the damned mud bed floor. I can say from that experience that
1964 was definitely not the 'old days' of superior lumber quality. ...

As always, depended on where the purchaser went in large part...

OTOH, I can confirm that stuff from back in the '10s - '20s was in
general "much more better"...

The barn here was begun just after rationing was lifted after the WWI
armistice (Nov '18) and is open construction. There are 2x6 wall studs,
2x8 haymow floor joists and builtup 2x6 beams (3 or 4 together) and
columns from 12 to 16-ft in length. A large number of them are clear
and very few aren't full dimension all sides. And, of course, the
surfaceed dimensions are nominal -3/8" instead of -9/16" or more (ie,
they're 1-5/8" thick, not 1-1/2 or 1-7/16).

As far as the '60s, we built a set of grain bins in the haymow for a
little feed mill around then and there's some leftover material from
that still stored. Included are some 20-ft 2x10 and 2x12 Doug fir that
are also almost clear and several of which are. I hate to guess what
one might pay for one of those if one could even find a 20-footer at all.

--

On Monday, February 24, 2014 6:09:53 AM UTC-8, Bill Gill wrote:
I have a little project in mind, but I need a bit of
1 X 4 to do it with. So yesterday I stopped by the nearest
home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3 S4S (square four sides),

snip

S4S is "Surfaced 4 Sides", i.e. planed smooth to industrial standard thickness and width.

The "old days" were, in many cases, working with old growth timber so of course the quality is better.

My old man and I both worked in lumber mills back in the 50s. Grading standards have gone down. What is "Common" now, would grade "Cull" back then.

Harry K

trees used to grow slowly over many years, creating much better quality lumber.

Trees now are grown FAST, and replanted. produced in farm like fashion.

these trees arent nearly as good

I've never seen anyone selling #3 pine. Why didn't
you go to a lumber yard?

Lowes and HD both have decent, but slightly inferior,
wood. It used to be standard that pine was sold as
clear or #2. The former had no knots. With the latter
I think the requirement was only coherent knots (that
won't pop out) and not over 1" diameter. Lowes and
HD use different terms because their lumber is not
actually up to spec. On the other hand, you can usually
pick over a large selection and can often find nearly
clear lower grade boards.
A more subtle problem is species and trees. I don't
know much about specific species but I do know that
much of what Lowes and HD sell is not the standard
spruce one used to always get. Some of it is very sappy.

If you want the wood for interior finish, poplar is usually
a better choice and may be even cheaper than clear pine.
It's slightly harder, but is always clear, with small-celled,
tight, smooth grain that takes paint beautifully. And it's
not so hard that you have to pre-drill for nails if you're
careful to hammer very straight.

Avoid pre-primed if possible. In some cases pre-primed
wood is actually glued-up pieces that will separate later.
Also, the primer is junk. Exterior wood should be primed
with oil primer. (The good stuff, that smells like linseed oil.)
You might get away with water-base primer in a dry, warm
climate, but it doesn't stand up tro moisture. I did a job
recently where another contractor had not finished doing
some gutters. He'd left pre-primed moldings behind that
had been sitting outside for a couple of months. The primer
was actually sliding off the moldings in sheets. And of course
the moldings were just glued-up junk, anyway. So I bought
new, unprimed moldings.

-------------------------------------------

"Bill Gill" wrote in message
...
|I have a little project in mind, but I need a bit of
| 1 X 4 to do it with. So yesterday I stopped by the nearest
| home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
| 1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3 S4S (square four sides),
| but I don't think a one of them had all 4 corners the full length.
| They did have some 1 X 8s that were fairly clean looking
| so I got one of those. I suppose I could have gone on over
| to Lowes, but I don't have much faith they would have had
| anything any better. I'll have to rip the 1 X 8s down, but
| I would have had to rip the 1 X 4s too, so that isn't a big
| problem.
|
| Of course the first problem will be to clean up the shop so
| I can work out there. I have done a number of small projects
| that didn't need much space, so I have just been shoving
| things out of the way. To do a proper job I really need
| to do a complete clean up.
|
| Bill

I've never seen anyone selling #3 pine. Why didn't
you go to a lumber yard?

Lowes and HD both have decent, but slightly inferior,
wood. It used to be standard that pine was sold as
clear or #2. The former had no knots. With the latter
I think the requirement was only coherent knots (that
won't pop out) and not over 1" diameter. Lowes and
HD use different terms because their lumber is not
actually up to spec. On the other hand, you can usually
pick over a large selection and can often find nearly
clear lower grade boards.
A more subtle problem is species and trees. I don't
know much about specific species but I do know that
much of what Lowes and HD sell is not the standard
spruce one used to always get. Some of it is very sappy.

If you want the wood for interior finish, poplar is usually
a better choice and may be even cheaper than clear pine.
It's slightly harder, but is always clear, with small-celled,
tight, smooth grain that takes paint beautifully. And it's
not so hard that you have to pre-drill for nails if you're
careful to hammer very straight.

Avoid pre-primed if possible. In some cases pre-primed
wood is actually glued-up pieces that will separate later.
Also, the primer is junk. Exterior wood should be primed
with oil primer. (The good stuff, that smells like linseed oil.)
You might get away with water-base primer in a dry, warm
climate, but it doesn't stand up tro moisture. I did a job
recently where another contractor had not finished doing
some gutters. He'd left pre-primed moldings behind that
had been sitting outside for a couple of months. The primer
was actually sliding off the moldings in sheets. And of course
the moldings were just glued-up junk, anyway. So I bought
new, unprimed moldings.

-------------------------------------------

"Bill Gill" wrote in message
...
|I have a little project in mind, but I need a bit of
| 1 X 4 to do it with. So yesterday I stopped by the nearest
| home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
| 1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3 S4S (square four sides),
| but I don't think a one of them had all 4 corners the full length.
| They did have some 1 X 8s that were fairly clean looking
| so I got one of those. I suppose I could have gone on over
| to Lowes, but I don't have much faith they would have had
| anything any better. I'll have to rip the 1 X 8s down, but
| I would have had to rip the 1 X 4s too, so that isn't a big
| problem.
|
| Of course the first problem will be to clean up the shop so
| I can work out there. I have done a number of small projects
| that didn't need much space, so I have just been shoving
| things out of the way. To do a proper job I really need
| to do a complete clean up.
|
| Bill

On 2014-02-24 9:09 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
I have a little project in mind, but I need a bit of
1 X 4 to do it with. So yesterday I stopped by the nearest
home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3 S4S (square four sides),
but I don't think a one of them had all 4 corners the full length.
They did have some 1 X 8s that were fairly clean looking
so I got one of those. I suppose I could have gone on over
to Lowes, but I don't have much faith they would have had
anything any better. I'll have to rip the 1 X 8s down, but
I would have had to rip the 1 X 4s too, so that isn't a big
problem.

Of course the first problem will be to clean up the shop so
I can work out there. I have done a number of small projects
that didn't need much space, so I have just been shoving
things out of the way. To do a proper job I really need
to do a complete clean up.

Bill

Who cares? Just work with it.

On 2/24/2014 9:21 AM, Harry K wrote:
....

... Grading standards have gone down. ...

I don't think it's so much standards themselves have changed for a given
grade so much but that with the lower availability and higher cost the
use of lower grades for equivalent purposes is inevitable.

Back when lumber was (comparatively) dirt cheap and plentiful there
wasn't any demand for the lesser grades for other than pulp or other
low-level uses or it was simply discarded. Now, it all has value so
even the sawdust is used in most mills.

--

On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 09:31:16 -0500, BenignBodger
wrote:

On 2/24/2014 9:09 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
I have a little project in mind, but I need a bit of
1 X 4 to do it with. So yesterday I stopped by the nearest
home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3 S4S (square four sides),
but I don't think a one of them had all 4 corners the full length.
They did have some 1 X 8s that were fairly clean looking
so I got one of those. I suppose I could have gone on over
to Lowes, but I don't have much faith they would have had
anything any better. I'll have to rip the 1 X 8s down, but
I would have had to rip the 1 X 4s too, so that isn't a big
problem.

Of course the first problem will be to clean up the shop so
I can work out there. I have done a number of small projects
that didn't need much space, so I have just been shoving
things out of the way. To do a proper job I really need
to do a complete clean up.

Bill

I am always hearing from people that lumber was better in the 'old days'
where 'old days' is only vaguely defined. I just had the opportunity
(necessity) to become more familiar with the internal structure of my
smallest bathroom, stripping it back to studs and joists, including
removing the damned mud bed floor. I can say from that experience that 1964
was definitely not the 'old days' of superior lumber quality. There was
some real crap buried in that tiny 38 square foot space. At first I was
confused by the number of studs that had slices almost all the way through
them until I realized that they were somebodies idea to de-crown bent wood.
Other studs had knots taking up at least half the width of the stock and at
least one had a waney edge that took away a third of the stock. I took the
opportunity to glue and screw splints on the compromised studs but left the
waney one alone because I couldn't get to it well enough without causing
possible damage to the wall in an adjacent bath. The wood I'm putting in is
regular borg-grade stuff but at least I've been able to select the least
crappy stock off the shelf.
Just goes to show you that back in 1964 there were "bodgers" in the
trades, just like there is now. And guys who are too cheap or lazy to
make firewood out of inferior materials.

Since all the "old growth" wood is gone, and the price of wood has
gone up, the temptation to use inferior wood has gotten a lot stronger
- and while back then you COULD get good wood (usually) today it is
more difficult. The availability of "rough" wood has not changed
(much).

dpb wrote:
On 2/24/2014 8:31 AM, BenignBodger wrote:
On 2/24/2014 9:09 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
...
... yesterday I stopped by the nearest
home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3 S4S (square four sides),
but I don't think a one of them had all 4 corners the full length.

...

I am always hearing from people that lumber was better in the 'old days'
where 'old days' is only vaguely defined. I just had the opportunity
(necessity) to become more familiar with the internal structure of my
smallest bathroom, stripping it back to studs and joists, including
removing the damned mud bed floor. I can say from that experience that
1964 was definitely not the 'old days' of superior lumber quality. ...

As always, depended on where the purchaser went in large part...

I need to find out where a local "historical society" bought the wood for a
"railroad storehouse" that they were building. I was walking through a
local park with my wife and we came upon a small building that was under
construction. There was a couple inside taking some measurements. Curious,
I stuck my head in, said hi, and we got to talking. It turns out that the
county was paying the historical society to have replica building erected
on the original site of a storage facility that used to be near the RR
tracks that ran through the park. It was a small building that would
contain public restrooms and could be used for meetings and small
gatherings. A lot of the work was being done by volunteers, Boy Scouts for
Eagle projects, etc.

The 1 by material that was piled up inside the building was the clearest,
straightest, most beautiful pine I had ever seen. Everything from 1x2's all
the way up to 1x10's. I mentioned it to the couple and they told me that it
sure was nice to work with. They said some of it was going to be stained,
but a lot of it was going to be painted. It was decided early on that it
was easier to buy stain quality wood for everything instead of trying to
figure out what was to be painted and what was to be stained. That way they
could grab whatever they needed at any time and use it.

After talking to the couple for a while, and offering some suggestions for
dealing with a door trim issue that they were having, they asked me if I
wanted to put a few hours helping out. They were nearing the end of the
project and had a deadline for completion and the opening ceremonies with
some county big-wigs in a couple of weeks. I showed up a couple of times
and put in a few hours trimming doors and hanging wainscoting and chair
rails. It was a lot of fun and now I can say I had a part in building a
pretty cool building.

I really need to call them and find out where the wood was purchased.


OTOH, I can confirm that stuff from back in the '10s - '20s was in
general "much more better"...

The barn here was begun just after rationing was lifted after the WWI
armistice (Nov '18) and is open construction. There are 2x6 wall studs,
2x8 haymow floor joists and builtup 2x6 beams (3 or 4 together) and
columns from 12 to 16-ft in length. A large number of them are clear and
very few aren't full dimension all sides. And, of course, the surfaceed
dimensions are nominal -3/8" instead of -9/16" or more (ie, they're
1-5/8" thick, not 1-1/2 or 1-7/16).

As far as the '60s, we built a set of grain bins in the haymow for a
little feed mill around then and there's some leftover material from that
still stored. Included are some 20-ft 2x10 and 2x12 Doug fir that are
also almost clear and several of which are. I hate to guess what one
might pay for one of those if one could even find a 20-footer at all.

--

On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 10:51:20 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

I've never seen anyone selling #3 pine. Why didn't
you go to a lumber yard?

Lowes and HD both have decent, but slightly inferior,
wood. It used to be standard that pine was sold as
clear or #2. The former had no knots. With the latter
I think the requirement was only coherent knots (that
won't pop out) and not over 1" diameter. Lowes and
HD use different terms because their lumber is not
actually up to spec. On the other hand, you can usually
pick over a large selection and can often find nearly
clear lower grade boards.
A more subtle problem is species and trees. I don't
know much about specific species but I do know that
much of what Lowes and HD sell is not the standard
spruce one used to always get. Some of it is very sappy.

MOST wood today is not sold as pine, or spruce. It is spec's as SPF
(Sprice, pine or fir) and sometimes even includes tamarak

If you want the wood for interior finish, poplar is usually
a better choice and may be even cheaper than clear pine.
It's slightly harder, but is always clear, with small-celled,
tight, smooth grain that takes paint beautifully. And it's
not so hard that you have to pre-drill for nails if you're
careful to hammer very straight.


Most often sold as "american white wood" at the "borg"
Avoid pre-primed if possible. In some cases pre-primed
wood is actually glued-up pieces that will separate later.

Sold as "finger jointed"
Also, the primer is junk. Exterior wood should be primed
with oil primer. (The good stuff, that smells like linseed oil.)
You might get away with water-base primer in a dry, warm
climate, but it doesn't stand up tro moisture. I did a job
recently where another contractor had not finished doing
some gutters. He'd left pre-primed moldings behind that
had been sitting outside for a couple of months. The primer
was actually sliding off the moldings in sheets. And of course
the moldings were just glued-up junk, anyway. So I bought
new, unprimed moldings.

-------------------------------------------

"Bill Gill" wrote in message
...
|I have a little project in mind, but I need a bit of
| 1 X 4 to do it with. So yesterday I stopped by the nearest
| home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
| 1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3 S4S (square four sides),
| but I don't think a one of them had all 4 corners the full length.
| They did have some 1 X 8s that were fairly clean looking
| so I got one of those. I suppose I could have gone on over
| to Lowes, but I don't have much faith they would have had
| anything any better. I'll have to rip the 1 X 8s down, but
| I would have had to rip the 1 X 4s too, so that isn't a big
| problem.
|
| Of course the first problem will be to clean up the shop so
| I can work out there. I have done a number of small projects
| that didn't need much space, so I have just been shoving
| things out of the way. To do a proper job I really need
| to do a complete clean up.
|
| Bill

| If you want the wood for interior finish, poplar is usually
| a better choice and may be even cheaper than clear pine.
| It's slightly harder, but is always clear, with small-celled,
| tight, smooth grain that takes paint beautifully. And it's
| not so hard that you have to pre-drill for nails if you're
| careful to hammer very straight.
|
|
| Most often sold as "american white wood" at the "borg"


Interesting. That must be a Canadian usage. I looked
up "american white wood", which I've never heard before.
(I also don't know what "borg" is.) I found the term referring
to basswood/linden, as well as tupelo. In Britain it seems
to be a name for tupil tree wood. It seems odd that anyone
would refer to poplar as "white wood", given that it mainly
ranges from gray to an ugly, dull greenish color.

I live in Boston, where poplar is always called poplar.
In fact, I can't think of any wood that's known by a
non-species "folk" name. (Unless you count the "fake"
species, like "Phillipine mahogany".) It may just be that
a lot of hardwoods are used routinely in building here, so
people are familiar with the different varieties. And poplar
is used here a lot for interior trim, since pine is no longer
a bargain.

On 2/24/2014 11:52 AM, dpb wrote:
On 2/24/2014 9:21 AM, Harry K wrote:
...

... Grading standards have gone down. ...

I don't think it's so much standards themselves have changed for a given
grade so much but that with the lower availability and higher cost the
use of lower grades for equivalent purposes is inevitable.
....

As an extreme example, shortly after moved to Virginia (Lynchburg),
Campbell County condemned and salvaged for sale an old school. The
earliest parts of the building dated to about 1880 or thereabouts. In
that portion of it the structural beams, floor joists and wall studs
were black walnut because at the time it walnut was considered "junk"
wood, of no other value than for construction timber.

Story this I've told before on the r.woodworking site -- they did a
complete salvage and had everything sorted and stacked on site before
opening the site for sales. Rather than a public open auction, it was a
"make an offer, we'll consider it" kind of a deal. I went down the
Saturday after the sale opened with the intent of just buying a slate
blackboard section for the kids to put in the basement for them.
Wandering around, the piles of beams and other structural wood caught my
eye being a budding woodworker (having come from SW KS, the reality of
there actually being useful lumber trees growing everywhere was still
rather novel at the time ) I thought this might be a way to pick up
some old native pine or other similar wood fairly inexpensively. So,
looking I began to realize this was _not_ pine and carefully shaved the
dirt and saw marks down to verify it was indeed mostly if not all walnut.

I had just made an acquaintance of a local young fellow just out of high
school who was making the decoupage plaques of the current rage and
selling them through the Davis Paint store downtown. Mr Davis had
furnished him a shop area in the basement and I had met him answering
his add for a small shaper when he had upgraded to a larger one.
Anyway, with his access to a large storage area and also interest, we
immediately went back down and placed a bid for the entire stack of
structural lumber of $4000 which was a huge amount of money in 1969.
The offer was accepted and we hauled two semi loads totaling almost
40,000 bd-ft of walnut...

There was a smattering of oak (red and white, hickory, and various other
things in the pile but the vast majority was walnut, most of which would
grade at 1C or better with quite a lot that was clear.

There were some 16- and 18-ft beams that were 3x12 and a few 3x16.

--

"Mayayana" wrote:
| If you want the wood for interior finish, poplar is usually
| a better choice and may be even cheaper than clear pine.
| It's slightly harder, but is always clear, with small-celled,
| tight, smooth grain that takes paint beautifully. And it's
| not so hard that you have to pre-drill for nails if you're
| careful to hammer very straight.
|
|
| Most often sold as "american white wood" at the "borg"


Interesting. That must be a Canadian usage. I looked
up "american white wood", which I've never heard before.
(I also don't know what "borg" is.)


If you DAGS for "borg" you will find references like this:

Borg (Star Trek) or "the Borg Collective," in the Star Trek media
franchise; a cybernetically-enhanced race which forcibly assimilates other
sentient species into its structure and hive-mind.

In a.h.r "borg" is used to refer to the home centers such as Home Depot,
Lowes, Menards, etc. where every store is virtually the same and what you
find at one e.g. Lowe's is exactly the same as you'll find at every other
Lowe's.





I found the term referring
to basswood/linden, as well as tupelo. In Britain it seems
to be a name for tupil tree wood. It seems odd that anyone
would refer to poplar as "white wood", given that it mainly
ranges from gray to an ugly, dull greenish color.

I live in Boston, where poplar is always called poplar.
In fact, I can't think of any wood that's known by a
non-species "folk" name. (Unless you count the "fake"
species, like "Phillipine mahogany".) It may just be that
a lot of hardwoods are used routinely in building here, so
people are familiar with the different varieties. And poplar
is used here a lot for interior trim, since pine is no longer
a bargain.

wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 19:19:15 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

"Mayayana" wrote:
| If you want the wood for interior finish, poplar is usually
| a better choice and may be even cheaper than clear pine.
| It's slightly harder, but is always clear, with small-celled,
| tight, smooth grain that takes paint beautifully. And it's
| not so hard that you have to pre-drill for nails if you're
| careful to hammer very straight.
|
|
| Most often sold as "american white wood" at the "borg"


Interesting. That must be a Canadian usage. I looked
up "american white wood", which I've never heard before.
(I also don't know what "borg" is.)


If you DAGS for "borg" you will find references like this:

Borg (Star Trek) or "the Borg Collective," in the Star Trek media
franchise; a cybernetically-enhanced race which forcibly assimilates other
sentient species into its structure and hive-mind.

In a.h.r "borg" is used to refer to the home centers such as Home Depot,
Lowes, Menards, etc. where every store is virtually the same and what you
find at one e.g. Lowe's is exactly the same as you'll find at every other
Lowe's.

Big Orange Retailing Giant, generally Home Depot.

I was walking around there today and I found wood ranging from the
cheapest white pine, nasty cuts only suitable for furring strips, then
"white wood" with a lot of knots in it, suitable for shelving to a
select grade that looked like SYP and pretty much clear and then you
got to the premium woods like the red oak and poplar. They were
cabinet grade if you picked them over.

There were also a few grades of 2x stud and framing lumber.

You get what you pay for.

If you have a real lumber yard nearby I would suggest you go there for
anything that you really want to look good. You can still pick and choose,
but - at least where I go - you always get someone to help you because they
want their stock kept neat. They don't want customers crawling on their
racks messing stuff up. One lumber yard I go to has racks up so high that
they have a cat walk. The guy climbs up and hands you down the wood. The
guys won't even bother handing down the bad stuff because they know you'll
just hand it back up for them to put away.

In general, the vast majority of the wood is much better than the stuff at
the borgs so picking and choosing is much faster.

On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 19:19:15 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

"Mayayana" wrote:
| If you want the wood for interior finish, poplar is usually
| a better choice and may be even cheaper than clear pine.
| It's slightly harder, but is always clear, with small-celled,
| tight, smooth grain that takes paint beautifully. And it's
| not so hard that you have to pre-drill for nails if you're
| careful to hammer very straight.
|
|
| Most often sold as "american white wood" at the "borg"


Interesting. That must be a Canadian usage. I looked
up "american white wood", which I've never heard before.
(I also don't know what "borg" is.)


If you DAGS for "borg" you will find references like this:

Borg (Star Trek) or "the Borg Collective," in the Star Trek media
franchise; a cybernetically-enhanced race which forcibly assimilates other
sentient species into its structure and hive-mind.

In a.h.r "borg" is used to refer to the home centers such as Home Depot,
Lowes, Menards, etc. where every store is virtually the same and what you
find at one e.g. Lowe's is exactly the same as you'll find at every other
Lowe's.





I found the term referring
to basswood/linden, as well as tupelo. In Britain it seems
to be a name for tupil tree wood. It seems odd that anyone
would refer to poplar as "white wood", given that it mainly
ranges from gray to an ugly, dull greenish color.

I live in Boston, where poplar is always called poplar.
In fact, I can't think of any wood that's known by a
non-species "folk" name. (Unless you count the "fake"
species, like "Phillipine mahogany".) It may just be that
a lot of hardwoods are used routinely in building here, so
people are familiar with the different varieties. And poplar
is used here a lot for interior trim, since pine is no longer
a bargain.
Big Orange Retail Giant - or BORG - originally applied to Home Depot

Bill Gill wrote in :

I have a little project in mind, but I need a bit of
1 X 4 to do it with. So yesterday I stopped by the nearest
home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3

#3 common is pretty crappy lumber. Go to a real lumber yard where you can get #1 COM or
FAS.

S4S (square four sides),

S4S = Surfaced 4 Sides

On 2/24/2014 1:01 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 09:31:16 -0500, BenignBodger
wrote:

On 2/24/2014 9:09 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
I have a little project in mind, but I need a bit of
1 X 4 to do it with. So yesterday I stopped by the nearest
home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3 S4S (square four sides),
but I don't think a one of them had all 4 corners the full length.
They did have some 1 X 8s that were fairly clean looking
so I got one of those. I suppose I could have gone on over
to Lowes, but I don't have much faith they would have had
anything any better. I'll have to rip the 1 X 8s down, but
I would have had to rip the 1 X 4s too, so that isn't a big
problem.

Of course the first problem will be to clean up the shop so
I can work out there. I have done a number of small projects
that didn't need much space, so I have just been shoving
things out of the way. To do a proper job I really need
to do a complete clean up.

Bill

I am always hearing from people that lumber was better in the 'old days'
where 'old days' is only vaguely defined. I just had the opportunity
(necessity) to become more familiar with the internal structure of my
smallest bathroom, stripping it back to studs and joists, including
removing the damned mud bed floor. I can say from that experience that 1964
was definitely not the 'old days' of superior lumber quality. There was
some real crap buried in that tiny 38 square foot space. At first I was
confused by the number of studs that had slices almost all the way through
them until I realized that they were somebodies idea to de-crown bent wood.
Other studs had knots taking up at least half the width of the stock and at
least one had a waney edge that took away a third of the stock. I took the
opportunity to glue and screw splints on the compromised studs but left the
waney one alone because I couldn't get to it well enough without causing
possible damage to the wall in an adjacent bath. The wood I'm putting in is
regular borg-grade stuff but at least I've been able to select the least
crappy stock off the shelf.
Just goes to show you that back in 1964 there were "bodgers" in the
trades, just like there is now. And guys who are too cheap or lazy to
make firewood out of inferior materials.

Since all the "old growth" wood is gone, and the price of wood has
gone up, the temptation to use inferior wood has gotten a lot stronger
- and while back then you COULD get good wood (usually) today it is
more difficult. The availability of "rough" wood has not changed
(much).


My folks lived in a house in PA which originally was part of a company
town. Theirs used to be the mine manager's. A simple house but everything
in the town had been built in the mid 1870s from local standing trees. The
story goes that the company hauled a steam-powered sawmill in on their
railroad siding, cut the local trees, turned everything into lumber and
mine timbers, and then took the sawmill away. The house in question was
built from an assortment of full-dimension green hardwood. I don't know if
it was old growth at that late date but it was definitely of good quality.
You wouldn't believe how difficult it was to do a few modifications on that
house -- the wood could destroy saw blades in no time. I'm pretty sure that
some of the more gnarly wood was elm and some was certainly cherry and
walnut from the color and smell. What they found they used. The house even
had the original hundred-year-old slate roof and it was pretty much intact.

On 2/24/2014 12:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
wrote:
On 2/24/2014 8:31 AM, BenignBodger wrote:
On 2/24/2014 9:09 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
...
... yesterday I stopped by the nearest
home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3 S4S (square four sides),
but I don't think a one of them had all 4 corners the full length.

...

I am always hearing from people that lumber was better in the 'old days'
where 'old days' is only vaguely defined. I just had the opportunity
(necessity) to become more familiar with the internal structure of my
smallest bathroom, stripping it back to studs and joists, including
removing the damned mud bed floor. I can say from that experience that
1964 was definitely not the 'old days' of superior lumber quality. ...

As always, depended on where the purchaser went in large part...

I need to find out where a local "historical society" bought the wood for a
"railroad storehouse" that they were building. ...

The 1 by material that was piled up inside the building was the clearest,
straightest, most beautiful pine I had ever seen. Everything from 1x2's all
the way up to 1x10's. ...

Probably thru the local full-service lumber yard on special order or, if
you're in a larger metro area there may well be a "real" hardwoods
dealer who'll also handle clear pine and other furniture-grade
softwoods. Be prepared for sticker shock, however, in wider dimensions
4/4 roughsawn clear can go for as much as $4.50/bf in retail quantities.

When doing the barn restoration about 10 yr ago, tried to get some 5/4
for the windows and it was essentially unobtainable at the time--all was
being used by Pella, Andersen and friends. Market isn't _quite_ so
tight now since the big housing crash...

--

wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 21:44:19 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

wrote:

Big Orange Retailing Giant, generally Home Depot.

I was walking around there today and I found wood ranging from the
cheapest white pine, nasty cuts only suitable for furring strips, then
"white wood" with a lot of knots in it, suitable for shelving to a
select grade that looked like SYP and pretty much clear and then you
got to the premium woods like the red oak and poplar. They were
cabinet grade if you picked them over.

There were also a few grades of 2x stud and framing lumber.

You get what you pay for.

If you have a real lumber yard nearby I would suggest you go there for
anything that you really want to look good. You can still pick and choose,
but - at least where I go - you always get someone to help you because they
want their stock kept neat. They don't want customers crawling on their
racks messing stuff up. One lumber yard I go to has racks up so high that
they have a cat walk. The guy climbs up and hands you down the wood. The
guys won't even bother handing down the bad stuff because they know you'll
just hand it back up for them to put away.

In general, the vast majority of the wood is much better than the stuff at
the borgs so picking and choosing is much faster.

My wife built over 100 houses and she will tell you plenty of horror
stories about what a "real lumber yard" will send you.
Most I have seen are not really interested in letting people back in
the lumber and they cite insurance issues.

The reality is they all get the same lumber.. As long as your BORG
turns it over fast enough that it doesn't warp on the rack and you are
careful picking out what you want, you will do as well as you can
anywhere.

Where the BORG falls down is when you want PT lumber. The stuff they
sell is usually the lowest concentration they make, in a generally
lousy grade of lumber to start with and CCA is out of the question.
For that sort of thing, you need to go to a marine contractor supply.

Your/your wife's experience is certainly not the same as mine, but then I
never had a house worth's of lumber delivered.

The 2 lumber yards in my area have never prevented me from going into the
yard. In fact, one yard has a storefront where you tell them what you want,
they write it up and you drive around the back, get out and walk into the
storage area, hand the receipt to the worker and between the two of you,
you pick out your boards. If you want something cut, you stand right next
to the saw while the guy cuts it.

The wood might be the same, but I have never had to sift through board
after board after board, by myself, to get to the good boards. I've never
seen the warped, curved and twisted boards that I see at the borgs.

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I know that straight lumber in any size smaller than 2X3 is getting progressively harder and harder to find.

I believe that all lumber is straight as an arrow when it's cut to size. The problem is that it's cut to size before it's fully dried. Wood cell wall shrink in thickness as wood dries, and that's what accounts for the twisting that happens when the straps are cut on a lift of wood and the lumber is allowed to move.

Probably the best solution is the one you chose; buy a larger piece of lumber and have it ripped down to size. But, even that option requires that the lumber you buy is relatively straight to begin with, and that can be a problem with lumber sizes smaller than a 2X3.

You can prove to yourself that the wood is being cut to size when it's still too wet by taking a close look at the 2X12 joists at your local lumber yard.
each and every one of them will be split at both ends for anywhere from 12 to 24 inches. The reason for that splitting is because moisture in the wood both is absorbed and evaporates 15 times as fast at the end grain than it does across the grain of the wood. So, the ends of the 2X12's are going to dry fastest, and when they do the wood at the ends of the joists shrinks more than the wood further from the end. The result is that the wood at the end of the joist splits to accomodate the shrinkage in the wood cell walls there.

Canada has an "export grade" of lumber that is prepared specially for export to countries like Hong Kong and Singapore that need lumber for construction but don't have forests or a forestry industry. That wood is dried for much longer AND the ends of the lumber is painted with oil based paint before it's cut into 2X12's or whatever. That paint prevents the evaporation of any residual moisture in the wood through the end grain. Consequently, any residual moisture in the wood (above about 16% which is what wood will typically dry to indoors) has to evaporate across the grain of the wood. The result is that the lumber dries evenly all the way along it's length with no faster evaporation of moisture at the ends and hence no splitting at the ends. The longer drying time and the additional preparation make that wood more expensive to produce, but it also sells for much more at it's export destination.

In a perfect world, all lumber would be made like export grade lumber.

On 2/24/2014 6:39 PM, BenignBodger wrote:
My folks lived in a house in PA which originally was part of a company
town. Theirs used to be the mine manager's. A simple house but
everything in the town had been built in the mid 1870s from local
standing trees. The story goes that the company hauled a steam-powered
sawmill in on their railroad siding, cut the local trees, turned
everything into lumber and mine timbers, and then took the sawmill away.
The house in question was built from an assortment of full-dimension
green hardwood. I don't know if it was old growth at that late date but
it was definitely of good quality. You wouldn't believe how difficult it
was to do a few modifications on that house -- the wood could destroy
saw blades in no time. I'm pretty sure that some of the more gnarly wood
was elm and some was certainly cherry and walnut from the color and
smell. What they found they used. The house even had the original
hundred-year-old slate roof and it was pretty much intact.
That reminds me of my brother John. He was a master carpenter who
worked mostly alone and hired casual labor when he needed help lifting
something. Any way in the 1960s he spent a year or more building a
house up in NE Oklahoma. The owner liked his work so much that he
provided housing for him all the time he was building the house.
The owner was also a good scrounger. He found a man who was clearing
some land and had a saw mill. So he bought almost all the lumber for
the house from him. The owner bought a planer a had John finish the
lumber. It turned out that most of the wood was oak. By the time
John finished the wood he was getting it for about 40 cents a foot.
Even then that was an astounding price. When I visited there was
an oak plank that was being used as a walkway up to the door of
the house. John said a friend of the owners saw that and was
really envious about them using what would cost him a relative
fortune as a walkway.

Bill

"Bill Gill" wrote in message
...
I have a little project in mind, but I need a bit of
1 X 4 to do it with. So yesterday I stopped by the nearest
home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3 S4S (square four sides),

Around here, #3 is bundled up, and sold as kindling wood to the campers.

writes:

Big Orange Retailing Giant, generally Home Depot.

I was walking around there today and I found wood ranging from the
cheapest white pine, nasty cuts only suitable for furring strips, then
"white wood" with a lot of knots in it, suitable for shelving to a
select grade that looked like SYP and pretty much clear and then you
got to the premium woods like the red oak and poplar. They were
cabinet grade if you picked them over.


The red oak at the borg is _way_ overpriced. Usually USD8-15/b.f.

A good lumberyard will have it for USD2-3bf; a mill if you are lucky
enough to have one local, will sell for less. Regional variations apply.

Granted the borg oak is S4S and you're more likely to find S2S with one
straight edge at a lumber yard, or rough at a mill, it's worth it if you
have the tools to surface the boards yourself.

Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:

Big Orange Retailing Giant, generally Home Depot.

I was walking around there today and I found wood ranging from the
cheapest white pine, nasty cuts only suitable for furring strips, then
"white wood" with a lot of knots in it, suitable for shelving to a
select grade that looked like SYP and pretty much clear and then you
got to the premium woods like the red oak and poplar. They were
cabinet grade if you picked them over.


The red oak at the borg is _way_ overpriced. Usually USD8-15/b.f.

A good lumberyard will have it for USD2-3bf; a mill if you are lucky
enough to have one local, will sell for less. Regional variations apply.

Granted the borg oak is S4S and you're more likely to find S2S with one
straight edge at a lumber yard, or rough at a mill, it's worth it if you
have the tools to surface the boards yourself.

20+ years ago I built a set of red oak bunk beds for my boys. At the time i
worked with a guy that was building his own house and he turned me on to a
place that sold all kinds of hardwoods "on line". Actually, back then it
was "on phone" but you get the idea.

At the time I didn't have the ability to surface the wood or rip it
accurately, so I gave them my cut list and they shipped me all the S4S
boards I needed. The price was way less than any local lumber yard. I had a
problem with one of the 2x6x8's that I needed for a bed rail. Even though
it technically fit their specs for % clear, once I explained that the
imperfection (a knot) was in a spot that would hamper the construction,
they shipped me a new board for free.

I haven't priced hardwoods on line recently, but I wonder if good deals can
still be had.

BTW...the design of the bunk beds was such that they could taken apart and
reassembled as 2 single beds, with a tall headboard and shorter footboard.
My daughter now uses one of the single beds at college, so my plan worked
out quite nicely.

On 2/25/2014 9:29 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

I haven't priced hardwoods on line recently, but I wonder if good deals can
still be had.
....

As one would expect, it's all over the map. There are those who will do
as your supplier did (but it won't be cheap any longer) to direct
purchase in bulk and all in between. Much now depends on shipping as to
how good a deal it is as that has become significant for common
materials (oak, walnut, etc., not the exotics such as teak, rosewood,
etc. that are pricey).

I think unless buying large quantities if one has a decent hardwoods
supplier in town you'll likely do as well or nearly enough so as to make
it unworthy of messing online for again the ordinary. If you're looking
for a 20" plank, that's something else again.

I generally wait until am going to Wichita for something else and plan
ahead to take the big truck and will buy 200 to 400-ft of several items
to make a full load. I'm fortunate that the barn has room...

Oh, the other place to investigate locally is the local HS or community
college if they have a woodworking program...

--

writes:
On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 15:03:59 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:

Big Orange Retailing Giant, generally Home Depot.

I was walking around there today and I found wood ranging from the
cheapest white pine, nasty cuts only suitable for furring strips, then
"white wood" with a lot of knots in it, suitable for shelving to a
select grade that looked like SYP and pretty much clear and then you
got to the premium woods like the red oak and poplar. They were
cabinet grade if you picked them over.


The red oak at the borg is _way_ overpriced. Usually USD8-15/b.f.

A good lumberyard will have it for USD2-3bf; a mill if you are lucky
enough to have one local, will sell for less. Regional variations apply.

Granted the borg oak is S4S and you're more likely to find S2S with one
straight edge at a lumber yard, or rough at a mill, it's worth it if you
have the tools to surface the boards yourself.

I make a lot if stuff with red oak and the HD S4S is competitive with
the local hardwood retailer here or anything I can find online

I assume I could get rough sawn cheaper if I lived somewhere that
actually mills it locally but I don't own a surface planer.

On the west coast, where I currently abide, red oak has to be shipped
from back east. The HD red-oak is about 4x the price at the local
hardwood suppliers (Global, Jackel Enterprises (great prices)). Southern
Lumber prices closer to HD, unfortunately. Recently
I bought S2S for $3.20/bf (compared with $12/bf at HD).

Last time I was at the mill in Iowa, they told me they shipped most of their
clear oak/walnut/cherry to Russia - more $$$ to the mill when compared to
selling it domestically.

Now Baker Hardwoods has some really _nice_ claro walnut, and it is priced
accordingly. http://www.bakerhardwoods.com/

nestork posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I know that straight
lumber in any size smaller than 2X3 is getting progressively harder and
harder to find.

I believe that all lumber is straight as an arrow when it's cut to size.
The problem is that it's cut to size before it's fully dried. Wood
cell wall shrink in thickness as wood dries, and that's what accounts
for the twisting that happens when the straps are cut on a lift of wood
and the lumber is allowed to move.

Probably the best solution is the one you chose; buy a larger piece of
lumber and have it ripped down to size. But, even that option requires
that the lumber you buy is relatively straight to begin with, and that
can be a problem with lumber sizes smaller than a 2X3.

You can prove to yourself that the wood is being cut to size when it's
still too wet by taking a close look at the 2X12 joists at your local
lumber yard.
each and every one of them will be split at both ends for anywhere from
12 to 24 inches. The reason for that splitting is because moisture in
the wood both is absorbed and evaporates 15 times as fast at the end
grain than it does across the grain of the wood. So, the ends of the
2X12's are going to dry fastest, and when they do the wood at the ends
of the joists shrinks more than the wood further from the end. The
result is that the wood at the end of the joist splits to accomodate the
shrinkage in the wood cell walls there.

Canada has an "export grade" of lumber that is prepared specially for
export to countries like Hong Kong and Singapore that need lumber for
construction but don't have forests or a forestry industry. That wood
is dried for much longer AND the ends of the lumber is painted with oil
based paint before it's cut into 2X12's or whatever. That paint
prevents the evaporation of any residual moisture in the wood through
the end grain. Consequently, any residual moisture in the wood (above
about 16% which is what wood will typically dry to indoors) has to
evaporate across the grain of the wood. The result is that the lumber
dries evenly all the way along it's length with no faster evaporation of
moisture at the ends and hence no splitting at the ends. The longer
drying time and the additional preparation make that wood more expensive
to produce, but it also sells for much more at it's export destination.

In a perfect world, all lumber would be made like export grade lumber.




--
nestork

Interesting post. Sounds like a splinter group to me 8~)

--
Tekkie

Tekkie: Here, read this. It's probably the best paper on wood shrinkage around:

Minimizing Wood Shrinkage Problems

That paper, "Detailing for Wood Shrinkage" was written by Dr. Stephen Smulski when he was still teaching at the U of Mass at Amhurst. He has since left teaching and now works as a consultant in the field of wood failure analysis.

You can learn more than you need or want to know about wood at the University of Massachusetts at Amhurst's Building and Construction Technology Program's web site:

UMass Amherst: Building and Construction Technology
Hover your mouse over "Publications" and right click "Publications by Title" to open that list in a new window.

On 2/24/2014 6:09 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
I have a little project in mind, but I need a bit of
1 X 4 to do it with. So yesterday I stopped by the nearest
home supply to get one. They had the rattiest selection of
1 X 4s I have ever seen. They were #3 S4S (square four sides),
but I don't think a one of them had all 4 corners the full length.
They did have some 1 X 8s that were fairly clean looking
so I got one of those. I suppose I could have gone on over
to Lowes, but I don't have much faith they would have had
anything any better. I'll have to rip the 1 X 8s down, but
I would have had to rip the 1 X 4s too, so that isn't a big
problem.

You need to go to a real lumber store that sells quality, straight,
properly milled, lumber. But it won't be cheap. Where I live, if you
want good wood you go to Southern Lumber
http://www.southernlumber.com/ and you pay high prices for good stuff.
If you want poor lumber you go to Home Depot. Lowe's is generally better
than Home Depot.

"sms" wrote in message
...
| On 2/24/2014 6:09 AM, Bill Gill wrote:

You're answering a 4-month-old post. Hopefully
the project is done by now.