During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.

They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.

Ok, who's right here?

BTW, he's my older brother so I just let it go.

On 2/6/2014 12:51 PM, wrote:
During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.

They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.

Ok, who's right here?

BTW, he's my older brother so I just let it go.
Best to leave things as they are. We once owned a 1948 house. Part of
the wiring was done backwards so the white was hot and black was common.
Yours could be the same way.

Paul

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, wrote:
During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.



I would think that if metal conduit is being used, it's already
grounded back at the panel, no?

As to making the grounded outlets work properly, it;s clearly
a major code violation to install grounded outlets if they are
not grounded properly to begin with. New outlets cannot be put
in during a renovation without conforming to the grounding
requiremets. And since it's a kitchen, GFCI as well.




They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.



Ok, who's right here?



BTW, he's my older brother so I just let it go.

You seem to be more on track then your brother. There is no fire
risk from properly grounding the conduit. Did you ask him how the
new outlets are grounded? If they were put in without a ground,
no GFCI, etc, then that is a real shock hazard? Who's doint this
work? Permits pulled?

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, wrote:
During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.



They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.



Ok, who's right here?



BTW, he's my older brother so I just let it go.

If it's conduit all the way to the panel then it is likely grounded at the panel.

On 02/06/2014 02:51 PM, wrote:
During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.

They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.

Ok, who's right here?

BTW, he's my older brother so I just let it go.




The conduit goes back to your breaker box (or fuse box if the system has
not been upgraded) and the breaker box itself is ground...OR SHOULD BE.
The proper way to ground the outlets, it you are using a standard three
wire plug is to have the ground terminal connected to a ground wire
which would normally be inside the conduit. If there is no ground wire
inside you will need to run one to do things properly.

Other wise, I'd leave it alone.

On 02/06/2014 12:51 PM, wrote:
During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made
out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal
conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was
exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring
conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit
run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.

They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I
said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the
breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.

Ok, who's right here?

The main caveat is that you have absolute certainty that the water pipe
is metal all the way to the water meter, and doesn't transition into
PVC. You also have to make a solid connection to the pipe that will not
be compromised due to corrosion if the pipe is steel.

If you can accomplish these two issues, it would technically work, but
I'm guessssing it's probably not going to be code compliant (should the
incoming pipe be replaced by PVC in the future, the ground would end up
being non functional).

Jon

On 2/6/2014 3:51 PM, wrote:
During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.

They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.

Ok, who's right here?

BTW, he's my older brother so I just let it go.

I'm not a licensed electrician. But, your idea
sounds first rate, to me. I'd also want to trace
the cold pipe back, make sure it's grounded.
Not insulated with CPVC for example.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 2/6/2014 4:02 PM, Paul Drahn wrote:
Best to leave things as they are. We once owned a 1948 house. Part of
the wiring was done backwards so the white was hot and black was common.
Yours could be the same way.

Paul

I'd want to find out.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 13:07:39 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, wrote:
During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.



I would think that if metal conduit is being used, it's already
grounded back at the panel, no?

I agree. You can test this pretty easy with an ohm meter. The
resistance between the conduit and the water pipe should be very near
0 ohms.

As to making the grounded outlets work properly, it;s clearly
a major code violation to install grounded outlets if they are
not grounded properly to begin with. New outlets cannot be put
in during a renovation without conforming to the grounding
requiremets. And since it's a kitchen, GFCI as well.




They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.



Ok, who's right here?



BTW, he's my older brother so I just let it go.

You seem to be more on track then your brother. There is no fire
risk from properly grounding the conduit. Did you ask him how the
new outlets are grounded? If they were put in without a ground,
no GFCI, etc, then that is a real shock hazard? Who's doint this
work? Permits pulled?

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 15:11:58 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 02/06/2014 02:51 PM, wrote:
During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.

They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.

Ok, who's right here?

BTW, he's my older brother so I just let it go.




The conduit goes back to your breaker box (or fuse box if the system has
not been upgraded) and the breaker box itself is ground...OR SHOULD BE.
The proper way to ground the outlets, it you are using a standard three
wire plug is to have the ground terminal connected to a ground wire
which would normally be inside the conduit. If there is no ground wire
inside you will need to run one to do things properly.

Other wise, I'd leave it alone.

A ground wire is not necessary. You can use a bond jumper screwed
into the box. Which I surprisingly can't find a google image of.

On 02/06/2014 05:12 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
OX



The conduit goes back to your breaker box (or fuse box if the system has
not been upgraded) and the breaker box itself is ground...OR SHOULD BE.
The proper way to ground the outlets, it you are using a standard three
wire plug is to have the ground terminal connected to a ground wire
which would normally be inside the conduit. If there is no ground wire
inside you will need to run one to do things properly.

Other wise, I'd leave it alone.

A ground wire is not necessary. You can use a bond jumper screwed
into the box. Which I surprisingly can't find a google image of.




Yes, that will work . I do not know if it would be "code" or not.

The problem I see would be the case of a bad coupling junction. I think
a ground wire would be the safer way to go.

On 02/06/2014 03:51 PM, wrote:
During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.

They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.

Ok, who's right here?

BTW, he's my older brother so I just let it go.


That would only work if you have hydroelectric power.

yrag,

With the recent popularity of plastic pipe, it may be unwise to.trust in
a cold water pipe as a ground. A bit of plastic pipe used for a repair may
disconnect the pipe from the ground.

Dave M.

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 4:11:58 PM UTC-5, philo* wrote:
On 02/06/2014 02:51 PM, wrote:

During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.



They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.



Ok, who's right here?



BTW, he's my older brother so I just let it go.









The conduit goes back to your breaker box (or fuse box if the system has

not been upgraded) and the breaker box itself is ground...OR SHOULD BE.

The proper way to ground the outlets, it you are using a standard three

wire plug is to have the ground terminal connected to a ground wire

which would normally be inside the conduit. If there is no ground wire

inside you will need to run one to do things properly.



Other wise, I'd leave it alone.

AFAIK, there is nothing in code that says metal conduit can't be
used as the grounding conductor, ie that you don't have to pull
a separate wire.

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 4:14:36 PM UTC-5, Jon Danniken wrote:
On 02/06/2014 12:51 PM, wrote:

During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made

out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal

conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was

exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring

conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit

run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.



They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I

said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the

breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.



Ok, who's right here?



The main caveat is that you have absolute certainty that the water pipe

is metal all the way to the water meter, and doesn't transition into

PVC. You also have to make a solid connection to the pipe that will not

be compromised due to corrosion if the pipe is steel.



If you can accomplish these two issues, it would technically work, but

I'm guessssing it's probably not going to be code compliant (should the

incoming pipe be replaced by PVC in the future, the ground would end up

being non functional).



Jon

That about sums it up. It would work, but it's not code compliant.
Nor should it be necessary because the conduit should be grounded
back at the panel.

On Friday, February 7, 2014 6:44:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2014 4:11:58 PM UTC-5, philo* wrote:

On 02/06/2014 02:51 PM, wrote:



During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.







They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.







Ok, who's right here?







BTW, he's my older brother so I just let it go.



















The conduit goes back to your breaker box (or fuse box if the system has



not been upgraded) and the breaker box itself is ground...OR SHOULD BE.



The proper way to ground the outlets, it you are using a standard three



wire plug is to have the ground terminal connected to a ground wire



which would normally be inside the conduit. If there is no ground wire



inside you will need to run one to do things properly.







Other wise, I'd leave it alone.



AFAIK, there is nothing in code that says metal conduit can't be

used as the grounding conductor, ie that you don't have to pull

a separate wire.

True. However if the house was built in '48, the insulation on the conductors in the conduit is possibly cloth covered rubber, in which case I'd give serious thought to repulling the home run. If the conduit is big enough I would go ahead and pull 12AWG conductors as the old ones are likely 14AWG - and maybe two hots, see comment Edison circuit below - with a dedicated ground conductor - not required, but belt and suspenders.

Read up on your code (NEC aka NFPA 70) ... a kitchen remodel requires a minimum of two dedicated 20A (12AWG) circuits with GFCIs for counter receptacles. I'm not sure if a single Edison circuit for the home run would be code compliant now or if you're required to have an AFCI breaker in the kitchen as well.

Using a water pipe as a ground in a situation where you're replacing a two wire receptacle with a grounding type receptacle *used* to be an accepted method, but is no longer code compliant. That would have only applied when there was no ground present however, and a continuous run of metal conduit back to the panel counts as a ground.

You will probably need new (deeper) boxes in the wall as well to comply with current box fill requirements. You definitely will if you are using 12AWG.

Finally, check your *local* codes for what you have to do for any new work; sometimes they are more restrictive than the NEC.

One thing that you may want to do, if you are concerned about grounding (not a bad thing to worry about) more bang for your buck and code legal is making sure that your water service is bonded to the ground/neutral bus at the panel, and if you don't have ground rods or a Ufer ground (I doubt it in a house that old) consider driving some ground rods. Also since you're upgrading, a surge protector at the panel can be helpful if you're in a storm prone area.

good luck

nate

On Friday, February 7, 2014 1:29:47 AM UTC-5, wrote:
There are some testers that will verify the quality of the ground

SureTest is one. It is not the $5 3 light tester. A sure test actually

puts a load on the ground.

Just try the ground poweing a 60 watt incandescent lamp, if the light burns brite your all set.

On Friday, February 7, 2014 8:30:34 AM UTC-5, N8N wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2014 6:44:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 4:11:58 PM UTC-5, philo* wrote:



On 02/06/2014 02:51 PM, wrote:







During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.















They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.















Ok, who's right here?















BTW, he's my older brother so I just let it go.







































The conduit goes back to your breaker box (or fuse box if the system has







not been upgraded) and the breaker box itself is ground...OR SHOULD BE.







The proper way to ground the outlets, it you are using a standard three







wire plug is to have the ground terminal connected to a ground wire







which would normally be inside the conduit. If there is no ground wire







inside you will need to run one to do things properly.















Other wise, I'd leave it alone.







AFAIK, there is nothing in code that says metal conduit can't be



used as the grounding conductor, ie that you don't have to pull



a separate wire.



True. However if the house was built in '48, the insulation on the conductors in the conduit is possibly cloth covered rubber, in which case I'd give serious thought to repulling the home run. If the conduit is big enough I would go ahead and pull 12AWG conductors as the old ones are likely 14AWG - and maybe two hots, see comment Edison circuit below - with a dedicated ground conductor - not required, but belt and suspenders.



Read up on your code (NEC aka NFPA 70) ... a kitchen remodel requires a minimum of two dedicated 20A (12AWG) circuits with GFCIs for counter receptacles. I'm not sure if a single Edison circuit for the home run would be code compliant now or if you're required to have an AFCI breaker in the kitchen as well.



You started out replying to my post with a "true" and then
segued into the above, about reading code, which I think you meant
for the OP. I agree with your observations. How much, if any of that
applies, depends on what he means by "kitchen renovation". So
far all he's said about anything to do with the electrical was the
one very limited question. If they are adding outlets, etc, which
is certainly typical of many kitchen renovation, particularly in
that age houe, I agree there are a whole lot of issues beyond
the question asked. And it also sounds like they are beyond the
skill level of those involved. If they are redoing the electrical,
it's kind of scary that they would be asking that question.
If that's the case, probably time to call a pro. Better to do it
right now while the kitchen work is being done, then have to deal
with a mess later.






Using a water pipe as a ground in a situation where you're replacing a two wire receptacle with a grounding type receptacle *used* to be an accepted method, but is no longer code compliant. That would have only applied when there was no ground present however, and a continuous run of metal conduit back to the panel counts as a ground.



You will probably need new (deeper) boxes in the wall as well to comply with current box fill requirements. You definitely will if you are using 12AWG.



Finally, check your *local* codes for what you have to do for any new work; sometimes they are more restrictive than the NEC.



One thing that you may want to do, if you are concerned about grounding (not a bad thing to worry about) more bang for your buck and code legal is making sure that your water service is bonded to the ground/neutral bus at the panel, and if you don't have ground rods or a Ufer ground (I doubt it in a house that old) consider driving some ground rods. Also since you're upgrading, a surge protector at the panel can be helpful if you're in a storm prone area.



good luck



nate

If they are adding outlets, etc, which

is certainly typical of many kitchen renovation, particularly in

that age houe, I agree there are a whole lot of issues beyond

the question asked.



No outlets are being added. You couldn't add them if you wanted to--all of the electrical is buried in concrete (the house is solid reinforced concrete) . The new kitchen is merely taking the place of the old kitchen. Same footprint.

On 2/7/2014 3:08 PM, wrote:



If they are adding outlets, etc, which

is certainly typical of many kitchen renovation, particularly in

that age houe, I agree there are a whole lot of issues beyond

the question asked.



No outlets are being added. You couldn't add them if you wanted to--all of the electrical is buried in concrete (the house is solid reinforced concrete) . The new kitchen is merely taking the place of the old kitchen. Same footprint.


New outlets may be added, but that is a different discussion.

On 02/07/2014 03:08 PM, wrote:



If they are adding outlets, etc, which

is certainly typical of many kitchen renovation, particularly in

that age houe, I agree there are a whole lot of issues beyond

the question asked.



No outlets are being added. You couldn't add them if you wanted to--all of the electrical is buried in concrete (the house is solid reinforced concrete) . The new kitchen is merely taking the place of the old kitchen. Same footprint.


Since the kitchen is going to be all new, I just don't see the point of
even trying to re-use 65 year old wire, I'd pull all new through the
conduit. It should be an easy job.

On Friday, February 7, 2014 4:08:10 PM UTC-5, wrote:






If they are adding outlets, etc, which



is certainly typical of many kitchen renovation, particularly in



that age houe, I agree there are a whole lot of issues beyond



the question asked.







No outlets are being added. You couldn't add them if you wanted to--all of the electrical is buried in concrete (the house is solid reinforced concrete) . The new kitchen is merely taking the place of the old kitchen. Same footprint.

It's still unclear what exactly that means, but if the wiring in
question isn't being modified, added onto, etc, then the answer to your question is probably to verify that the conduit is grounded back at the panel,
in which case it can serve as the grounding conductor.

As others have pointed out or assumed, etc, it's a bit unusual for
a kitchen renovation of a house from the 40's to not include electrical
work, eg more outlets, GFCI, lights, more circuits, 20 amp vs 15,
wiring for appliances, etc., even if it's just the same footprint,
which it typically is. And if you get into that, then you clearly
have to bring the kitchen electrical up to code. And even if you're
ripping out some of the wiring and re-doing it, ie still trying to
have the same outlets on the same circuits when you;re done, you
can't do that either. It has to be brought up to code.

Even if that conduit is buried in the concrete, if it was installed
correctly there should be endpoints, access points, etc
where it's possible to pull new conductors. Something to keep
in mind perhaps.

On Friday, February 7, 2014 4:47:51 PM UTC-5, philo* wrote:
On 02/07/2014 03:08 PM, wrote:







If they are adding outlets, etc, which



is certainly typical of many kitchen renovation, particularly in



that age houe, I agree there are a whole lot of issues beyond



the question asked.







No outlets are being added. You couldn't add them if you wanted to--all of the electrical is buried in concrete (the house is solid reinforced concrete) . The new kitchen is merely taking the place of the old kitchen. Same footprint.





Since the kitchen is going to be all new, I just don't see the point of

even trying to re-use 65 year old wire, I'd pull all new through the

conduit. It should be an easy job.

It certainly is unusual. A new kitchen is a lot of money and work.
And you want more outlets, higher amps, GFCI, more circuits, etc.
I think it's rather odd to put money into a lot of other stuff and
then wind up with a 75 year old electrical system. Both from a
functionality standpoint and safety.

Around here, NJ, you couldm't even pull the permits for
the other work that required, eg plumbing, without also pulling
electrical permits and bringing it all up to code. It's kind of like
rebuilding a room and I think once you open up the can of worms that
the kitchen is being renovated, then everything that applies in the code
has to be done. Other places, requirements may be different.

On 02/07/2014 04:23 PM, wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2014 4:47:51 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 02/07/2014 03:08 PM, wrote:


Xd.



Around here, NJ, you couldm't even pull the permits for
the other work that required, eg plumbing, without also pulling
electrical permits and bringing it all up to code. It's kind of like
rebuilding a room and I think once you open up the can of worms that
the kitchen is being renovated, then everything that applies in the code
has to be done. Other places, requirements may be different.




When I remodeled the kitchen over 20 years ago , since all the walls and
ceiling were out, I found it easy to put in all new wiring everywhere
/except/ one outlet that was hard to get at.

Guess which one just failed recently?

I just disconnected it and put in a whole new outlet and a separate feed.

posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


There are some testers that will verify the quality of the ground
SureTest is one. It is not the $5 3 light tester. A sure test actually
puts a load on the ground.

Greg, wouldn't this also be an issue of bonding vs grounding?

--
Tekkie