I guess I'm either too lazy to go to the trouble to design a suitable protection circuit, or too cheap to consider spending some money, or, probably both. I just hate the way everything is thrown away because there is something that maybe is better available.

I fix old "Italian style" Christmas tree light strings, adding a couple of sockets and bulbs to 50 light sets to convert them to 52 light sets. The 4% drop in voltage doesn't dim the lights noticeably, and they don't burn out nearly as fast. Then I donate them to Goodwill, along with severaL spare bulbs for each set in a paper bag attached to the set. Easy to do if you understand about hot and neutral 120V circuits and use a handitester to follow the hot lead to wherever there is a break. What can be confusing is where a bulb is burned out, but the little shorting stub wound around the filament supports fails to close/burn through sufficiently to short out the lamp, but closes enough that the capacitance allows some 120V to leak thru, just enough that the handitester responds, but with a noticeably weaker response than full on or full off. Those defects can take twice as long to find and fix. Good to do on a rainy or snowy January day.

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 08:48:45 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 1:17:00 AM UTC-6, Gz wrote:
Today's furnace specify btu. Is that input or output ? Greg

I haven't pursued getting a "modern" furnace because I have neighbors who have put in newer furnaces and have had all sorts of problems with them. As an electrical engineer, I love to try new technology, but I have to say that I will keep this furnace for as long as it holds out since there is nothing electronic to go wrong when there is are nearby lightning strikes or power surges, both of which have taken out neighbors furnaces more than once.

Wow. That's very interesting. I don't want to lose a control board
to lightning or surges. They're at least 500 dollars by now, probalby
7 or 800.

My 34 year old oil furnace does have a few electronic parts, that is,
one circuit board with maybe 30 parts iirc (last looked at 10 years
ago at least) including 1 or 2 transistors iirc, or even maybe a
little IC.

I had trouble with the mechanical relay on it for a while, but for
some reason that stopped giving me trouble 20 years ago and has worked
fine ever since.

And a month after I bought the house, when it was 4 years old, when I
had 4 friends visiting from NYC on July 4 weekend. the AC failed
becaue the 110 volt tranformer that powered the circuit board broke.
The guy at the supply house wanted to sell me a new circuit board for
350 or 400 dollars, but I whined and he sold me a transformer instead
for 10 dollars. Still working 30 years later. Transformer is too
big to go where the old one did, as part of the circuit board, but
that's not a problem


(Moved in middle of May The AC broke at noon on Saturday, July 4. The
water went out at 6PM on Saturday, and all the electricity failed at
noon on Sunday! Hard to believe. I've never lost more than one of
these in any 3 month period since.

He did and he said what it was.
Keep the old one going as long as possible.
The new electronic controllers violate the KISS principle of reliability.
Mark

On 12/25/2013 9:00 PM, micky wrote:

I haven't pursued getting a "modern" furnace because I have neighbors who have put in newer furnaces and have had all sorts of problems with them. As an electrical engineer, I love to try new technology, but I have to say that I will keep this furnace for as long as it holds out since there is nothing electronic to go wrong when there is are nearby lightning strikes or power surges, both of which have taken out neighbors furnaces more than once.

Wow. That's very interesting. I don't want to lose a control board
to lightning or surges. They're at least 500 dollars by now, probalby
7 or 800.

My 34 year old oil furnace does have a few electronic parts, that is,
one circuit board with maybe 30 parts iirc (last looked at 10 years
ago at least) including 1 or 2 transistors iirc, or even maybe a
little IC.

Makes no sense. I replaced a 33 year old oil burner and save about $900
a year in oil costs. I've done that for the past three years now. So,
for fear of losing a $500 board you think I should spend an extra $900 a
year? The boys at Mobile/Exxon thank you for the business.

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/25/2013 9:48 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 19:32:24 -0800 (PST), Daring Dufas TeaBillie on
welfare wrote:

How in **** is someone going to know that? I've never seen a
thermostat with statistics.
Then you have not seen many thermostats. Virtually any "smart"
thermostat can tell you what your daily and accumulated usage is.
Mine tells me today, yesterday, and seasonal total. If you don't have
a "smart" thermostat, just connect a clock to the furnace - it runs
when the furnace runs, giving you total run time. You either record
the time every morning, or reset the clock. Definitely NOT rocket
science.

Killer Loon could never comprehend something as simple as a programmable thermostat. ^_^

TDD

The first programmable I fooled with, was hell. I forget the name. They
gave it away because they could not figure I out. It took me a while to
figure it out. Others are much simpler. I like stats, but I don't have any
use for programmable now. House heats and cools fast.

Greg

On 12/25/2013 4:23 PM, wrote:
I guess I'm either too lazy to go to the trouble to design a suitable
protection circuit, or too cheap to consider spending some money, or,
probably both. I just hate the way everything is thrown away because
there is something that maybe is better available.

I fix old "Italian style" Christmas tree light strings, adding a
couple of sockets and bulbs to 50 light sets to convert them to 52
light sets. The 4% drop in voltage doesn't dim the lights
noticeably, and they don't burn out nearly as fast. Then I donate
them to Goodwill, along with severaL spare bulbs for each set in a
paper bag attached to the set. Easy to do if you understand about
hot and neutral 120V circuits and use a handitester to follow the hot
lead to wherever there is a break. What can be confusing is where a
bulb is burned out, but the little shorting stub wound around the
filament supports fails to close/burn through sufficiently to short
out the lamp, but closes enough that the capacitance allows some 120V
to leak thru, just enough that the handitester responds, but with a
noticeably weaker response than full on or full off. Those defects
can take twice as long to find and fix. Good to do on a rainy or
snowy January day.

When I was helping my late friend GB do residential HVAC work. Many
customers in rural areas were having capacitors and circuit boards blown
out in their HVAC systems here in Alabamastan. I got him to start
installing hard wired surge arresters on the condensing unit and air
handler to protect them, especially the very expensive control boards
in the heat pumps. The new super duper high efficiency systems that used
no more power than a night light were very expensive to repair when a
power surge hit them. 5 years after I started installing hard wired
surge arresters on residential HVAC systems, the hard wired surge
arresters showed up in all the HVAC and refrigeration supply houses in
the area. Before that, I had been installing them for many years on
commercial systems and got them at electrical supply houses. Me and GB
never had to replace another blown capacitor or circuit board for a
rural customer who had us install the surge arresters. I know guys who
will say, "I don't want to install protection, I want lighting to damage
things so I can make more money fixing them." Of course when it hits a
large area, many systems go down and the fellow can't get to them then
the customer calls someone else and may never call him back again. ^_^

TDD

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 21:55:05 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 12/25/2013 9:00 PM, micky wrote:

I haven't pursued getting a "modern" furnace because I have neighbors who have put in newer furnaces and have had all sorts of problems with them. As an electrical engineer, I love to try new technology, but I have to say that I will keep this furnace for as long as it holds out since there is nothing electronic to go wrong when there is are nearby lightning strikes or power surges, both of which have taken out neighbors furnaces more than once.

Wow. That's very interesting. I don't want to lose a control board
to lightning or surges. They're at least 500 dollars by now, probalby
7 or 800.

My 34 year old oil furnace does have a few electronic parts, that is,
one circuit board with maybe 30 parts iirc (last looked at 10 years
ago at least) including 1 or 2 transistors iirc, or even maybe a
little IC.

Makes no sense. I replaced a 33 year old oil burner and save about $900
a year in oil costs. I've done that for the past three years now. So,
for fear of losing a $500 board

That's not the only reason. Too many things to go into.


I shold add that my friends from NYC all lived in apartments, and I
was the first to get a house, and I'm showing them how nice it is to
have a house, with no AC, no water, and no electricity. I don't
think I convinced them.


you think I should spend an extra $900 a
year? The boys at Mobile/Exxon thank you for the business.

On 12/25/2013 10:06 PM, gregz wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/25/2013 9:48 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 19:32:24 -0800 (PST), Daring Dufas TeaBillie
on welfare wrote:

How in **** is someone going to know that? I've never seen a
thermostat with statistics.
Then you have not seen many thermostats. Virtually any "smart"
thermostat can tell you what your daily and accumulated usage
is. Mine tells me today, yesterday, and seasonal total. If you
don't have a "smart" thermostat, just connect a clock to the
furnace - it runs when the furnace runs, giving you total run
time. You either record the time every morning, or reset the
clock. Definitely NOT rocket science.

Killer Loon could never comprehend something as simple as a
programmable thermostat. ^_^

TDD

The first programmable I fooled with, was hell. I forget the name.
They gave it away because they could not figure I out. It took me a
while to figure it out. Others are much simpler. I like stats, but I
don't have any use for programmable now. House heats and cools fast.

Greg

I have a mint condition Honeywell TB8220U1003 Visionpro 8000 Commercial
Programmable Thermostat that I found in the trash in the electrical room
of a drug store. I was servicing the remote administered IP energy
management system that had been recently installed by the drugstore
chain. All of the separate wall mounted thermostats had been removed and
the energy management system has temperature sensors in different areas
of the store including inside the supply and return air ducts. The
system also monitors the current draw of the AC units on the roof and
indicates any fault from the controllers in the HVAC package units. The
corporate office has a central monitoring and control group to control
the electrical energy usage and HVAC systems of each store. The
thermostat was one that was overlooked and tossed in the trash by morons
who didn't know what they had. I ran service calls at other stores and
found a box full of commercial commercial thermostats of different kinds
and asked the store manager If I could have them but he thought he
should hang on to them. Right now I'm using the 4.5" backlit
LCD touch screen thermostat as a desk clock and thermometer. Here's a
link to Amazon that shows what it looks like and if you look at the list
price, I'll bet the drugstore didn't pay Amazon's price. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-TB82.../dp/B0009N0RJ2

http://preview.tinyurl.com/muw8v5k

TDD

On Friday, December 27, 2013 5:21:24 AM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/25/2013 10:06 PM, gregz wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/25/2013 9:48 AM, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 19:32:24 -0800 (PST), Daring Dufas TeaBillie

on welfare wrote:



How in **** is someone going to know that? I've never seen a

thermostat with statistics.

Then you have not seen many thermostats. Virtually any "smart"

thermostat can tell you what your daily and accumulated usage

is. Mine tells me today, yesterday, and seasonal total. If you

don't have a "smart" thermostat, just connect a clock to the

furnace - it runs when the furnace runs, giving you total run

time. You either record the time every morning, or reset the

clock. Definitely NOT rocket science.



Killer Loon could never comprehend something as simple as a

programmable thermostat. ^_^



TDD



The first programmable I fooled with, was hell. I forget the name.

They gave it away because they could not figure I out. It took me a

while to figure it out. Others are much simpler. I like stats, but I

don't have any use for programmable now. House heats and cools fast.



Greg



I have a mint condition Honeywell TB8220U1003 Visionpro 8000 Commercial

Programmable Thermostat that I found in the trash in the electrical room

of a drug store. I was servicing the remote administered IP energy

management system that had been recently installed by the drugstore

chain. All of the separate wall mounted thermostats had been removed and

the energy management system has temperature sensors in different areas

of the store including inside the supply and return air ducts. The

system also monitors the current draw of the AC units on the roof and

indicates any fault from the controllers in the HVAC package units. The

corporate office has a central monitoring and control group to control

the electrical energy usage and HVAC systems of each store. The

thermostat was one that was overlooked and tossed in the trash by morons

who didn't know what they had. I ran service calls at other stores and

found a box full of commercial commercial thermostats of different kinds

and asked the store manager If I could have them but he thought he

should hang on to them. Right now I'm using the 4.5" backlit

LCD touch screen thermostat as a desk clock and thermometer. Here's a

link to Amazon that shows what it looks like and if you look at the list

price, I'll bet the drugstore didn't pay Amazon's price. ^_^



http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-TB82.../dp/B0009N0RJ2



http://preview.tinyurl.com/muw8v5k



TDD

And does it record run times? I have the basic VisionPro, which isn't
cheap and I would consider it one of the best thermostats, but it doesn't
record run times. In fact, I've had various programmable thermostats
over the years and none recorded run times. I guess it depends on what
your definition of "smart" is.

On Wednesday, December 25, 2013 2:49:41 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 08:48:45 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Thursday, December 19, 2013 1:17:00 AM UTC-6, Gz wrote:

Today's furnace specify btu. Is that input or output ? Greg



I haven't pursued getting a "modern" furnace because I have neighbors who have put in newer furnaces and have had all sorts of problems with them. As an electrical engineer, I love to try new technology, but I have to say that I will keep this furnace for as long as it holds out since there is nothing electronic to go wrong when there is are nearby lightning strikes or power surges, both of which have taken out neighbors furnaces more than once.



I'd have though that an electrical engineer would have the solution

for that.

It is a vailid point to consider. How many more problems they have, IDK,
but anytime you have electronics as opposed to just motors and
switches, there is more potential for that kind of problem. I've had a
high efficiency furnace for 3 years now. And I know several other people
who have had them for years. IDK of any problems with the electronics
on any of them, at least so far. Sone of those houses have surge
protection, others don't.

It also depends where you live, how prevalent lightning is, whether
you have the house protected from surges, etc. With an ancient furnace
like that, a new high efficiency unit could cut his gas bill by 40% or
more. But even then, if you do the payback calculation, even if he
lives in most areas of the USA, the payback period could be a long time.
If he lives where the furnace isn't used that much, it could be 20+ years.
I did mine when they had the $1500 fed tax credit, various state rebates,
etc. that reduced the cost significantly. Plus, at 25 years old, I
figured it was near it's EOL and better to replace it while I had a
good deal.

On Wednesday, December 25, 2013 9:55:05 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/25/2013 9:00 PM, micky wrote:



I haven't pursued getting a "modern" furnace because I have neighbors who have put in newer furnaces and have had all sorts of problems with them.. As an electrical engineer, I love to try new technology, but I have to say that I will keep this furnace for as long as it holds out since there is nothing electronic to go wrong when there is are nearby lightning strikes or power surges, both of which have taken out neighbors furnaces more than once.



Wow. That's very interesting. I don't want to lose a control board

to lightning or surges. They're at least 500 dollars by now, probalby

7 or 800.



My 34 year old oil furnace does have a few electronic parts, that is,

one circuit board with maybe 30 parts iirc (last looked at 10 years

ago at least) including 1 or 2 transistors iirc, or even maybe a

little IC.



Makes no sense. I replaced a 33 year old oil burner and save about $900

a year in oil costs. I've done that for the past three years now. So,

for fear of losing a $500 board you think I should spend an extra $900 a

year? The boys at Mobile/Exxon thank you for the business.

Whether it makes sense depends on the yearly operating cost difference
and the payback time period. You have oil, which is a lot more expensive
than natural gas. He may also be located in GA or similar, where
the fuel usage isn't that great. Instead of saving $900 a year, he
might only save $250, which makes a big difference.

On Wednesday, December 25, 2013 9:00:30 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 08:48:45 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Thursday, December 19, 2013 1:17:00 AM UTC-6, Gz wrote:

Today's furnace specify btu. Is that input or output ? Greg



I haven't pursued getting a "modern" furnace because I have neighbors who have put in newer furnaces and have had all sorts of problems with them. As an electrical engineer, I love to try new technology, but I have to say that I will keep this furnace for as long as it holds out since there is nothing electronic to go wrong when there is are nearby lightning strikes or power surges, both of which have taken out neighbors furnaces more than once.



Wow. That's very interesting. I don't want to lose a control board

to lightning or surges. They're at least 500 dollars by now, probalby

7 or 800.



My 34 year old oil furnace does have a few electronic parts, that is,

one circuit board with maybe 30 parts iirc (last looked at 10 years

ago at least) including 1 or 2 transistors iirc, or even maybe a

little IC.



If it has electronics on it, three things come to mind:

1 - Those electronics have apparently lasted 34 years without failing from
surges.

2 - What a company charges for replacement parts often doesn't
have much relation to their cost. Without actual data on what
a board for a high efficiency unit costs versus your ancient
furnace board, it's pure speculation.

3 - What's your experience been with all the other electronics
in the house? Are they all failing from surges? If not, then
why would the new furnace be any different than all the other
electronics? The most vulnerable would be things like TV, cable
modems, phones, etc that are connected not only to AC, but to
other lines that go outside the house too. A furnace would be
more like the refrigerator, oven, etc., which are usually far less
likely to get damaged by surges.



I had trouble with the mechanical relay on it for a while, but for

some reason that stopped giving me trouble 20 years ago and has worked

fine ever since.



And a month after I bought the house, when it was 4 years old, when I

had 4 friends visiting from NYC on July 4 weekend. the AC failed

becaue the 110 volt tranformer that powered the circuit board broke.

The guy at the supply house wanted to sell me a new circuit board for

350 or 400 dollars,

Which kind of helps prove my point. I'll bet the control board for
a modern high eff furnace doesn't cost much more. Probably the most
expensive part would be if you have a ECM blower, but you can get
high eff furnaces with a conventional blower if you want.



but I whined and he sold me a transformer instead

for 10 dollars. Still working 30 years later. Transformer is too

big to go where the old one did, as part of the circuit board, but

that's not a problem





Whether it makes sense to replace an old inefficient furnace with
a new high eff one depends on your climate, fuel costs, payback
period etc. I'd say to not do so for fear that the new system
is going to fail due to surges and cost a lot to fix is one part
of the equation, but you have to factor everything else in. And
for surges, a proper whole house surge protector for $100 is
something every home should have today. With that the probability
of surge damage to the electronics will be greatly reduced.

On 12/27/2013 08:32 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, December 25, 2013 9:00:30 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 08:48:45 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Thursday, December 19, 2013 1:17:00 AM UTC-6, Gz wrote:

Today's furnace specify btu. Is that input or output ? Greg



I haven't pursued getting a "modern" furnace because I have neighbors who have put in newer furnaces and have had all sorts of problems with them. As an electrical engineer, I love to try new technology, but I have to say that I will keep this furnace for as long as it holds out since there is nothing electronic to go wrong when there is are nearby lightning strikes or power surges, both of which have taken out neighbors furnaces more than once.



Wow. That's very interesting. I don't want to lose a control board

to lightning or surges. They're at least 500 dollars by now, probalby

7 or 800.



My 34 year old oil furnace does have a few electronic parts, that is,

one circuit board with maybe 30 parts iirc (last looked at 10 years

ago at least) including 1 or 2 transistors iirc, or even maybe a

little IC.



If it has electronics on it, three things come to mind:

1 - Those electronics have apparently lasted 34 years without failing from
surges.

2 - What a company charges for replacement parts often doesn't
have much relation to their cost. Without actual data on what
a board for a high efficiency unit costs versus your ancient
furnace board, it's pure speculation.

3 - What's your experience been with all the other electronics
in the house? Are they all failing from surges? If not, then
why would the new furnace be any different than all the other
electronics? The most vulnerable would be things like TV, cable
modems, phones, etc that are connected not only to AC, but to
other lines that go outside the house too. A furnace would be
more like the refrigerator, oven, etc., which are usually far less
likely to get damaged by surges.



I had trouble with the mechanical relay on it for a while, but for

some reason that stopped giving me trouble 20 years ago and has worked

fine ever since.



And a month after I bought the house, when it was 4 years old, when I

had 4 friends visiting from NYC on July 4 weekend. the AC failed

becaue the 110 volt tranformer that powered the circuit board broke.

The guy at the supply house wanted to sell me a new circuit board for

350 or 400 dollars,

Which kind of helps prove my point. I'll bet the control board for
a modern high eff furnace doesn't cost much more. Probably the most
expensive part would be if you have a ECM blower, but you can get
high eff furnaces with a conventional blower if you want.



but I whined and he sold me a transformer instead

for 10 dollars. Still working 30 years later. Transformer is too

big to go where the old one did, as part of the circuit board, but

that's not a problem





Whether it makes sense to replace an old inefficient furnace with
a new high eff one depends on your climate, fuel costs, payback
period etc. I'd say to not do so for fear that the new system
is going to fail due to surges and cost a lot to fix is one part
of the equation, but you have to factor everything else in. And
for surges, a proper whole house surge protector for $100 is
something every home should have today. With that the probability
of surge damage to the electronics will be greatly reduced.


I never lost a furnace, but I did take a big hit at my last house a few
years back. I did use a whole house surge protector and also most
electronics were on cheap surge-protected power strips. Some of my
neighbors lost some big dollar items; my total loss was one ancient
power strip (which was on an ungrounded circuit), the control board for
the dishwasher, and the power supply board for an electrostatic air
filter. Total cost of parts to repair was less than insurance
deductible, so I didn't claim. Dominion Power told us to pound sand
even though I'm certain that the issue could have been prevented by more
aggressive tree trimming (a common issue around here.)

Subsequent to that incident I installed another surge protector on the
recep feeding the air filter and dehumidifier; touch wood, I haven't
lost anything else since.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 04:55:18 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, December 27, 2013 5:21:24 AM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/25/2013 10:06 PM, gregz wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/25/2013 9:48 AM, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 19:32:24 -0800 (PST), Daring Dufas TeaBillie

on welfare wrote:



How in **** is someone going to know that? I've never seen a

thermostat with statistics.

Then you have not seen many thermostats. Virtually any "smart"

thermostat can tell you what your daily and accumulated usage

is. Mine tells me today, yesterday, and seasonal total. If you

don't have a "smart" thermostat, just connect a clock to the

furnace - it runs when the furnace runs, giving you total run

time. You either record the time every morning, or reset the

clock. Definitely NOT rocket science.



Killer Loon could never comprehend something as simple as a

programmable thermostat. ^_^



TDD



The first programmable I fooled with, was hell. I forget the name.

They gave it away because they could not figure I out. It took me a

while to figure it out. Others are much simpler. I like stats, but I

don't have any use for programmable now. House heats and cools fast.



Greg



I have a mint condition Honeywell TB8220U1003 Visionpro 8000 Commercial

Programmable Thermostat that I found in the trash in the electrical room

of a drug store. I was servicing the remote administered IP energy

management system that had been recently installed by the drugstore

chain. All of the separate wall mounted thermostats had been removed and

the energy management system has temperature sensors in different areas

of the store including inside the supply and return air ducts. The

system also monitors the current draw of the AC units on the roof and

indicates any fault from the controllers in the HVAC package units. The

corporate office has a central monitoring and control group to control

the electrical energy usage and HVAC systems of each store. The

thermostat was one that was overlooked and tossed in the trash by morons

who didn't know what they had. I ran service calls at other stores and

found a box full of commercial commercial thermostats of different kinds

and asked the store manager If I could have them but he thought he

should hang on to them. Right now I'm using the 4.5" backlit

LCD touch screen thermostat as a desk clock and thermometer. Here's a

link to Amazon that shows what it looks like and if you look at the list

price, I'll bet the drugstore didn't pay Amazon's price. ^_^



http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-TB82.../dp/B0009N0RJ2



http://preview.tinyurl.com/muw8v5k



TDD

And does it record run times? I have the basic VisionPro, which isn't
cheap and I would consider it one of the best thermostats, but it doesn't
record run times. In fact, I've had various programmable thermostats
over the years and none recorded run times. I guess it depends on what
your definition of "smart" is.

The Nest does record not only time run but on and off times. It
reports totals and comparisons to last month and last year in an email
summary every month. It also remembers recovery time so you program
the times you want heat, not when you want it to start. It doesn't
take into account outside temperature in its recovery time
calculations (at least not directly).

On 12/27/2013 8:15 AM, wrote:


My 34 year old oil furnace does have a few electronic parts, that is,




Makes no sense. I replaced a 33 year old oil burner and save about $900

a year in oil costs. I've done that for the past three years now. So,

for fear of losing a $500 board you think I should spend an extra $900 a

year? The boys at Mobile/Exxon thank you for the business.

Whether it makes sense depends on the yearly operating cost difference
and the payback time period. You have oil, which is a lot more expensive
than natural gas. He may also be located in GA or similar, where
the fuel usage isn't that great. Instead of saving $900 a year, he
might only save $250, which makes a big difference.


What does the price of natural gas have to do with this? He said he has
an oil fired furnace. He also said he is afraid to change because he
could blow out a $500+ circuit board. That is a rather poor excuse.
Sure, you have to run the numbers, but to say you are afraid of an
expensive repair makes no sense at all to keep spending it on oil. Run
the numbers, then lets talk.

On Friday, December 27, 2013 10:48:16 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/27/2013 8:15 AM, wrote:





My 34 year old oil furnace does have a few electronic parts, that is,









Makes no sense. I replaced a 33 year old oil burner and save about $900



a year in oil costs. I've done that for the past three years now. So,



for fear of losing a $500 board you think I should spend an extra $900 a



year? The boys at Mobile/Exxon thank you for the business.



Whether it makes sense depends on the yearly operating cost difference

and the payback time period. You have oil, which is a lot more expensive

than natural gas. He may also be located in GA or similar, where

the fuel usage isn't that great. Instead of saving $900 a year, he

might only save $250, which makes a big difference.





What does the price of natural gas have to do with this? He said he has

an oil fired furnace. He also said he is afraid to change because he

could blow out a $500+ circuit board. That is a rather poor excuse.

Sure, you have to run the numbers, but to say you are afraid of an

expensive repair makes no sense at all to keep spending it on oil. Run

the numbers, then lets talk.



There are two people here talking about not replacing an old furnace
because of concerns about the repair cost of the increased complexity,
possible blown boards from surges, etc. It started with hrho, who said
he has a gas furnace. Micky has an oil one. I agree, it's all about
the numbers. Part of the number analysis is easy. That's estimating
the cost savings on fuel. But how do you factor in repair cost of
the new high efficiency units vs the old unit? I don't know that it's
even possible to get data to analyze, eg what the actual failure rate
of the new furnaces are vs the old. That is what you'd need to estimate
the total ownership cost. And if you're biased against getting a high
eff to begin with, you could come up with any estimate to justify it.

I was concerned about the possible higher cost of failure on
the more complex new system, ECM motors in particular. But with
the federal tax credits, rebates, etc in 2010 it made sense to me
to replace a 25 year old furnace because it was at it's expected
EOL. As I posted previously, in 2 seasons of usage of the new
versus one season of the old, I saved over 40% in gas usage. But part
of that is I have the thermostat set lower now too. I
should also be saving on electricity, because the new one has an
ECM blower. And I'm for sure saving on AC too. Still, depending
on the total install cost, versus how much your fuel bills are,
repair costs, etc it could take 10+ years to recover. I did mine
because I figured with the tax credit it was a good deal and who
knows how much longer the 25 year old system was going to last.

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 10:48:16 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 12/27/2013 8:15 AM, wrote:


My 34 year old oil furnace does have a few electronic parts, that is,




Makes no sense. I replaced a 33 year old oil burner and save about $900

a year in oil costs. I've done that for the past three years now. So,

for fear of losing a $500 board you think I should spend an extra $900 a

year? The boys at Mobile/Exxon thank you for the business.

Whether it makes sense depends on the yearly operating cost difference
and the payback time period. You have oil, which is a lot more expensive
than natural gas. He may also be located in GA or similar, where
the fuel usage isn't that great. Instead of saving $900 a year, he
might only save $250, which makes a big difference.


What does the price of natural gas have to do with this? He said he has
an oil fired furnace. He also said he is afraid to change because he
could blow out a $500+ circuit board. That is a rather poor excuse.
Sure, you have to run the numbers, but to say you are afraid of an
expensive repair makes no sense at all to keep spending it on oil. Run
the numbers, then lets talk.

If he lives somewhere where his fuel usage is low - say he only uses
$400 of oil a year, and his furnace is 45% efficient and a new
super-duper oil furnace is 90% efficient, he will only stand to save
something like $200 a year on oil. If that new furnace costs him $2000
installed,, his payback is 10 years - and if he blows only ONE $500
board in those 10 years, his payback goes to 12.5 years. Blow a
second board, and the payback goes to 15 years - aproxemately the
expected lifespan of many of today's good high efficiency furnaces.

On Friday, December 27, 2013 1:15:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 10:48:16 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



On 12/27/2013 8:15 AM, wrote:





My 34 year old oil furnace does have a few electronic parts, that is,









Makes no sense. I replaced a 33 year old oil burner and save about $900



a year in oil costs. I've done that for the past three years now. So,



for fear of losing a $500 board you think I should spend an extra $900 a



year? The boys at Mobile/Exxon thank you for the business.



Whether it makes sense depends on the yearly operating cost difference

and the payback time period. You have oil, which is a lot more expensive

than natural gas. He may also be located in GA or similar, where

the fuel usage isn't that great. Instead of saving $900 a year, he

might only save $250, which makes a big difference.





What does the price of natural gas have to do with this? He said he has

an oil fired furnace. He also said he is afraid to change because he

could blow out a $500+ circuit board. That is a rather poor excuse.

Sure, you have to run the numbers, but to say you are afraid of an

expensive repair makes no sense at all to keep spending it on oil. Run

the numbers, then lets talk.



If he lives somewhere where his fuel usage is low - say he only uses

$400 of oil a year, and his furnace is 45% efficient and a new

super-duper oil furnace is 90% efficient, he will only stand to save

something like $200 a year on oil. If that new furnace costs him $2000

installed,, his payback is 10 years - and if he blows only ONE $500

board in those 10 years, his payback goes to 12.5 years. Blow a

second board, and the payback goes to 15 years - aproxemately the

expected lifespan of many of today's good high efficiency furnaces.


It would be cold day in hell when you could get a high eff furnace
installed for $2000, at least around these parts, NJ. When I went out
to get quotes for a new furnace and AC, they were from $8K to $11K.
The equipment cost is about half furnace, half AC.

So, I think we're all on the same page. The payback depends mostly
on the cost of fuel saved and the climate.

" wrote:
On Friday, December 27, 2013 1:15:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 10:48:16 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



On 12/27/2013 8:15 AM, wrote:





My 34 year old oil furnace does have a few electronic parts, that is,









Makes no sense. I replaced a 33 year old oil burner and save about $900



a year in oil costs. I've done that for the past three years now. So,



for fear of losing a $500 board you think I should spend an extra $900 a



year? The boys at Mobile/Exxon thank you for the business.



Whether it makes sense depends on the yearly operating cost difference

and the payback time period. You have oil, which is a lot more expensive

than natural gas. He may also be located in GA or similar, where

the fuel usage isn't that great. Instead of saving $900 a year, he

might only save $250, which makes a big difference.





What does the price of natural gas have to do with this? He said he has

an oil fired furnace. He also said he is afraid to change because he

could blow out a $500+ circuit board. That is a rather poor excuse.

Sure, you have to run the numbers, but to say you are afraid of an

expensive repair makes no sense at all to keep spending it on oil. Run

the numbers, then lets talk.



If he lives somewhere where his fuel usage is low - say he only uses

$400 of oil a year, and his furnace is 45% efficient and a new

super-duper oil furnace is 90% efficient, he will only stand to save

something like $200 a year on oil. If that new furnace costs him $2000

installed,, his payback is 10 years - and if he blows only ONE $500

board in those 10 years, his payback goes to 12.5 years. Blow a

second board, and the payback goes to 15 years - aproxemately the

expected lifespan of many of today's good high efficiency furnaces.


It would be cold day in hell when you could get a high eff furnace
installed for $2000, at least around these parts, NJ. When I went out
to get quotes for a new furnace and AC, they were from $8K to $11K.
The equipment cost is about half furnace, half AC.

So, I think we're all on the same page. The payback depends mostly
on the cost of fuel saved and the climate.

It was 7 years go I had goodman furnace, with ac, and new gas line dug, for
$5k.
No problems yet. Had to switch from oil furnace, 50 years old.

Greg

On 12/27/2013 02:26 PM, wrote:

[snip]

It would be cold day in hell when you could get a high eff furnace
installed for $2000, at least around these parts, NJ. When I went out
to get quotes for a new furnace and AC, they were from $8K to $11K.
The equipment cost is about half furnace, half AC.

The Trane furnace / AC I got installed this April cost a little over $7K
($7099.89).

BTW, the papers that come with the (natural gas) furnace list both input
and output BTU.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"If they squeeze olives to get olive oil, how do they get baby oil?" --
George Carlin

On 12/20/2013 12:35 AM, gregz wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 07:17:00 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

Today's furnace specify btu. Is that input or output ?

Greg
Mine quotes input BTUs (basically fuel consumption)

The funny thing, output is what yo need to know in computing requirements.
When I was young, I remember looking at the furnace specs in my teens. I'm
pretty sure it gave specs at 120k btu out, and maybe 160btu in. I'll have
to compute efficiency. ...

Any reputable vendor will quote both (as well as efficiency which will
give you the other from whichever you start).

--