My home furnace has a Fan with a sticker from Brundage, Kalamazoo, MI
and a type-in (serial/part?) number 26-13391.

I had died and we replaced the capacitor and it now works fine. But there are
no markings for CFM in case we need to replace the (1964) fan for our central
HVAC system. Apparently it has two sets of coils to turn the fan and the
capacitor is used to alernate the two coils.

DOes anyone have a clue? I googled it and all I got was Linkedin ids for
folks with that name in that town.


- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

On 12/12/2013 4:06 PM, wrote:
My home furnace has a Fan with a sticker from Brundage, Kalamazoo, MI
and a type-in (serial/part?) number 26-13391.

I had died (snipped)

Sorry to hear of your demise. :-)

On 12/12/2013 4:06 PM, wrote:
My home furnace has a Fan with a sticker from Brundage, Kalamazoo,
MI and a type-in (serial/part?) number 26-13391.

I had died

You poor fellow, what did you die from. Been there done that. ^_^

TDD

In article , the-daring-dufas@stinky-
finger.net says...

On 12/12/2013 4:06 PM, wrote:
My home furnace has a Fan with a sticker from Brundage, Kalamazoo,
MI and a type-in (serial/part?) number 26-13391.

I had died

You poor fellow, what did you die from. Been there done that. ^_^

TDD

Yeah, how was it on the other side? Hot?

Jamie

Followups set to alt.home.repair .

In alt.home.repair wrote:
But there are no markings for CFM in case we need to replace the
(1964) fan for our central HVAC system.

Usually you don't swap out the entire blower assembly. If the motor
goes bad, it can be replaced with another motor of the same size and
rating. Local HVAC shops have the motors, brackets, etc in stock. If
the belt, pulleys, or fan bearings (if equipped) go bad, they can also
usually be replaced with standard parts of the same size - try the HVAC
shop or hardware store. If the fan blade/blower wheel goes bad, it can
be replaced with one of a similar size, rotation, and maximum RPM; if
it is the same size, shape, and has pretty close to the same number of
vanes/blades, it will move about the same CFM. (HVAC shop again.) You
have already discovered that the capacitor can be replaced with standard
parts.

Apparently it has two sets of coils to turn the fan and the capacitor
is used to alernate the two coils.

It probably has a "start" winding and a "run" winding. The run winding
is energized the entire time the motor is running. The start winding
is energized for only a few seconds when the motor first starts, through
the capacitor.

If the run winding quits, it might spin for a few seconds when it starts
and then stop, or it may just sit there and buzz for a few seconds. If
the start winding quits, it may spin up to speed very, very slowly, or
again, just sit there and buzz.

Out of curiosity, what kind of furnace is it? Gas, oil, electric? Also,
where in the world is it? If it's gas, and not in the far southern US,
a 49 year old furnace is probably pretty close to being done. An oil
furnace that old and not down south is probably close to done too. The
main problem is that the heat exchanger rusts out; the furnace still
appears to work, but exhaust gas gets blown into your house.

The new furnace "should" be sized by analyzing the house: how many
windows does it have, how much insulation does it have, how exposed is
it in each direction, etc. What usually happens is they don't analyze
anything and put in the same size furnace that it had before, or *maybe*
one size smaller or bigger. If the furnace is gas and you get a new
one, even a cheap new one will be more efficient than the old one, which
will save money on the gas bill.

Suggestion: if you don't already have one, get a carbon monoxide alarm
and install it (they are like smoke detectors). If it goes off, call
the furnace guy today. If it doesn't go off, save some money while you
wait for spring, and then call the furnace guy.

Matt Roberds

On 12/12/2013 6:04 PM, Maynard A. Philbrook Jr. wrote:
In article , the-daring-dufas@stinky-
finger.net says...

On 12/12/2013 4:06 PM, wrote:
My home furnace has a Fan with a sticker from Brundage,
Kalamazoo, MI and a type-in (serial/part?) number 26-13391.

I had died

You poor fellow, what did you die from. Been there done that. ^_^

TDD

Yeah, how was it on the other side? Hot?

Jamie


I was turned away as being unacceptable and told to leave. I was told to
go back to where I came from. That's the story of my life, err, death.
Dang it, I can't win. ^_^

TDD

On 12/12/2013 6:12 PM, wrote:
Followups set to alt.home.repair .

In alt.home.repair wrote:
But there are no markings for CFM in case we need to replace the
(1964) fan for our central HVAC system.

Usually you don't swap out the entire blower assembly. If the motor
goes bad, it can be replaced with another motor of the same size and
rating. Local HVAC shops have the motors, brackets, etc in stock. If
the belt, pulleys, or fan bearings (if equipped) go bad, they can also
usually be replaced with standard parts of the same size - try the HVAC
shop or hardware store. If the fan blade/blower wheel goes bad, it can
be replaced with one of a similar size, rotation, and maximum RPM; if
it is the same size, shape, and has pretty close to the same number of
vanes/blades, it will move about the same CFM. (HVAC shop again.) You
have already discovered that the capacitor can be replaced with standard
parts.


Around here, me and most guys who repair HVAC will slide the whole
blower housing out of the air handler then take it to one of the
electric motor supply and repair shops. The repair techs replace the
motor and capacitor then bench test it to verify proper operation like
direction of rotation and smooth running. If the squirrel cage blower
wheel needs replacing, that is replaced too. It saves a lot of time and
trouble caused by the possibility of a defective new motor, capacitor
and warped blower wheel. The bench testing is really worth the time it
takes to bring the blower into the shop and get the new motor checked
out right there where all the needed parts are on the shelf. ^_^

TDD

On 12/12/2013 04:25 PM, IGot2P wrote:
On 12/12/2013 4:06 PM, wrote:
My home furnace has a Fan with a sticker from Brundage, Kalamazoo, MI
and a type-in (serial/part?) number 26-13391.

I had died (snipped)

Sorry to hear of your demise. :-)


Sounds like he came back to life when someone replaced a capacitor.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:05:05 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/12/2013 6:04 PM, Maynard A. Philbrook Jr. wrote:
In article , the-daring-dufas@stinky-
finger.net says...

On 12/12/2013 4:06 PM, wrote:
My home furnace has a Fan with a sticker from Brundage,
Kalamazoo, MI and a type-in (serial/part?) number 26-13391.

I had died

You poor fellow, what did you die from. Been there done that. ^_^

TDD

Yeah, how was it on the other side? Hot?

Jamie


I was turned away as being unacceptable and told to leave. I was told to
go back to where I came from. That's the story of my life, err, death.
Dang it, I can't win. ^_^

Sounds like it's purgatory for you! ;-)

On 12/12/2013 7:54 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:05:05 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/12/2013 6:04 PM, Maynard A. Philbrook Jr. wrote:
In article , the-daring-dufas@stinky-
finger.net says...

On 12/12/2013 4:06 PM, wrote:
My home furnace has a Fan with a sticker from Brundage,
Kalamazoo, MI and a type-in (serial/part?) number 26-13391.

I had died

You poor fellow, what did you die from. Been there done that. ^_^

TDD

Yeah, how was it on the other side? Hot?

Jamie


I was turned away as being unacceptable and told to leave. I was told to
go back to where I came from. That's the story of my life, err, death.
Dang it, I can't win. ^_^

Sounds like it's purgatory for you! ;-)


That's where Sister Godzilla told us little kids we would wind up when
we were imprisoned at the Catholic Parochial Gulag. There, the behavior
of children was controlled by the use of sheer terror. That's why I have
absolutely no fear of terrorists, I used up all my fear when I was a
small boy and nothing really scares me except penguins for some odd
reason. ^_^

TDD

*+-I had died


It had died.. oops



- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

*+-If the run winding quits, it might spin for a few seconds when it starts
*+-and then stop, or it may just sit there and buzz for a few seconds. If
*+-the start winding quits, it may spin up to speed very, very slowly, or
*+-again, just sit there and buzz.

Exactly!!!

*+-Out of curiosity, what kind of furnace is it? Gas, oil, electric? Also,
*+-where in the world is it?

New York City. 1964 York/BorgWarner. Gas.

My nabe was built from land cleared for parking from the 1963 World's Fair.

Am I right in thinking that new oil furnaces are more likely to produce big
gains in efficiency than a gas one?

*+-The new furnace "should" be sized by analyzing the house: how many

I know. I'm a chemical engineer who is considering doing HVAC to get my PE.
(My EIT is from 1981). So I took an HVAC course a year ago. I also know that
since we have plenty rooms, it may take a while to do the caclulations.

I found a web site for Brooklyn Fans who claim to sell Brundage fans. I
emailed them. Also I found an HVAC shop (on THomas Register) in Kalamazoo
which is named Brundage. Is it possible York had them make them?
They seem to only have fifty employees.

I can't believe there are no markings with CFM on the fan. Home Depot sells
the fans by CFM. Maybe the sticker fell off long ago. Still, we're the
original owners, so I doubt it. (My folks died. But my uncle lives in the
other apartment, and he's an 80yo Electrical Engineer who spent ten years as
a submarine officer. He found the bad capacitor.)

Right now I'm hoping everything works fine. Fingers crossed. It's 25F
outside. WHich is why I thought of preparing.. just in case.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

Followups set to alt.home.repair. Again. Attributions re-added and
non-standard quoting fixed. At least it's better than Google Groups.

In alt.home.repair wrote:
wrote:

Gas, oil, electric? Also, where in the world is it?

New York City. 1964 York/BorgWarner. Gas.

In my opinion, 49 years is plenty long enough for a gas furnace to last.
In Missouri and Oklahoma, I know of gas furnaces from the mid to late
1960s, for single-family homes of 1400 square feet or so, that were
replaced at about 30 years, 27 years, and 40 years. The 40-year-old one
had a damaged heat exchanger and was leaking combustion gases into the
house. The 30-year-old one was OK, as far as I know, but the home owner
was concerned about it failing in the future, and also wanted a more
efficient model. The 27-year-old one was replaced by the previous owner
of the house, so I don't know why they did it.

My nabe was built from land cleared for parking from the 1963 World's
Fair.

You may have already seen it, but this guy scanned the official guide
to the World's Fair:
http://www.butkus.org/information/wo..._fair_1964.htm

Am I right in thinking that new oil furnaces are more likely to
produce big gains in efficiency than a gas one?

I am pretty sure a new gas furnace will be more efficient than a 1964
model. I don't know much about oil furnaces; they aren't used much
around here (Missouri/Kansas/Oklahoma/Texas) and I don't do HVAC for a
living. I assume a 2013 oil furnace would be at least a little more
efficient than a 1964 oil furnace, but I don't know how that compares to
gas furnaces.

If you switch to oil, you do have the one-time cost of an oil tank and
some plumbing. If you stick with gas, there's a 95+% chance that the
existing gas plumbing can be reused.

As you are probably aware , you have to mix fuel with air to burn it.
Gas is, uh, not a solid or a liquid, and the gas company puts some
pressure behind it for you, so basically you just let it escape through
a known-sized hole and it mixes with air by itself. Oil has to get
persuaded to mix with air by pumps and nozzles, which you get to buy and
maintain as part of the furnace.

Personally, I also like the idea that the gas is always there; just open
up the valve and get warm. I don't have to remember to get the tank
filled, or hope the oil truck can make it through the snow, etc.

On the other hand, if you work for an oil company, maybe you get a
company discount.

I also know that since we have plenty rooms, it may take a while to do
the caclulations.

You can get a spreadsheet to help for free, but you also apparently need
a copy of the not-free book to go with it. Or maybe go to the library.
https://www.acca.org/industry/system-design/speedsheets

Also I found an HVAC shop (on THomas Register) in Kalamazoo which is
named Brundage. Is it possible York had them make them?

Maybe, but it may just be an unrelated HVAC service/install shop run by
someone with the same name.

I Googled "brundage fans" and found
http://www.airmasterfan.com/History.htm , which seems more likely.

I can't believe there are no markings with CFM on the fan.

Why not? The engineers at York obviously had a target CFM in mind when
they chose the blower, but they also expected that people would either
buy replacements from York (using the York part number) or from their
local HVAC shop (using generic parts), so there wasn't a need to print
the CFM on the blower itself.

I looked at the installation and service manual for my 2009 Trane forced
air gas furnace, and it doesn't have just a single number for the blower
CFM; it depends on the static pressure of the ducting. (It also has a
variable-speed blower, so it depends on which speed it selects.)

But my uncle lives in the other apartment, and he's an 80yo Electrical
Engineer who spent ten years as a submarine officer.

If his apartment has its own furnace, and it's the same as yours, and
something craps out in the middle of January, make one good one out of
the parts of both of them and sleep in one apartment for a few days.
The HVAC salesman's eyes light up when somebody walks in with icicles
in their hair.

Matt Roberds

The Daring Dufas wrote:
The bench testing is really worth the time it takes to bring the
blower into the shop and get the new motor checked out right there
where all the needed parts are on the shelf.

I learned something today; I didn't know that a motor shop would do this
for you. Will they do this for Joe Homeowner off the street, or do you
have to be an official HVAC tech?

Matt Roberds

On 12/13/2013 12:37 AM, wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
The bench testing is really worth the time it takes to bring the
blower into the shop and get the new motor checked out right there
where all the needed parts are on the shelf.

I learned something today; I didn't know that a motor shop would do this
for you. Will they do this for Joe Homeowner off the street, or do you
have to be an official HVAC tech?

Matt Roberds


No, the motor shops around here will do it for any walk in customer but
the service and repair companies get a business discount. ^_^

TDD

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:36:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
*+-If the run winding quits, it might spin for a few seconds when it starts

*+-and then stop, or it may just sit there and buzz for a few seconds. If

*+-the start winding quits, it may spin up to speed very, very slowly, or

*+-again, just sit there and buzz.



Exactly!!!



*+-Out of curiosity, what kind of furnace is it? Gas, oil, electric? Also,

*+-where in the world is it?



New York City. 1964 York/BorgWarner. Gas.



My nabe was built from land cleared for parking from the 1963 World's Fair.



Am I right in thinking that new oil furnaces are more likely to produce big

gains in efficiency than a gas one?



No. You would get a big increase in efficiency in a new
93% gas furnace. IDK what efficiency you may be actually getting,
but new furnaces from the 80's were typically 80% when new
and working perfectly. That 50 year old beast is probably
well below that. If you touch the stack, you'd get burned.
With a new HE furnace, the PVC pipe barely gets warm and you
can put your hand in the exhaust.



*+-The new furnace "should" be sized by analyzing the house: how many



I know. I'm a chemical engineer who is considering doing HVAC to get my PE.

(My EIT is from 1981). So I took an HVAC course a year ago. I also know that

since we have plenty rooms, it may take a while to do the caclulations.



I found a web site for Brooklyn Fans who claim to sell Brundage fans. I

emailed them. Also I found an HVAC shop (on THomas Register) in Kalamazoo

which is named Brundage. Is it possible York had them make them?

They seem to only have fifty employees.



I can't believe there are no markings with CFM on the fan. Home Depot sells

the fans by CFM. Maybe the sticker fell off long ago. Still, we're the

original owners, so I doubt it. (My folks died. But my uncle lives in the

other apartment, and he's an 80yo Electrical Engineer who spent ten years as

a submarine officer. He found the bad capacitor.)



Right now I'm hoping everything works fine. Fingers crossed. It's 25F

outside. WHich is why I thought of preparing.. just in case.


I'd be looking at the tax credits, utility rebates, etc available
for a new system. If you studied HVAC and that system is anywhere
near as old as the furnace, then you should know it's running at a
far lower efficiency than any modern system too.

Very many thanks for both replies


- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:06:00 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

I had died and we replaced the capacitor and it now works fine.

If you died (as you said), you didn't replace any capacitors!!!!