I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started up again various lights would light up around the house as they had been on and were still street-connected.. Now, everything is disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have to invent one?

Paul

Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started up again various lights would light up around the house as they had been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have to invent one?

Paul

Hi,
I don't know if it is good enough for your purpose.
Sniff-it 2 by Triplett can sniff and beep or light up an
indicator. Take a look.

"Pavel314" wrote in message
...

I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out device of
course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main switch to the street
manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other than
looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on again. When I
just ran extension cords from the generator to the well, refrigerators,
etc., during an outage, when the power started up again various lights would
light up around the house as they had been on and were still
street-connected. Now, everything is disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could clamp
on the main line coming in from the street which would light up an LED if
there were power in the line, but if there's no current actually flowing I
don't see how it would pick up the potential voltage in the line. Is there
such a thing available or will I have to invent one?

Paul

Simple. Use induction method. Like a clamp amp meter works. To light your
LED

On 12/12/2013 04:27 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main switch
to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the well,
refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started up again
various lights would light up around the house as they had been on and
were still street-connected. Now, everything is disconnected from the
street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have to
invent one?

Paul

Hi,
I don't know if it is good enough for your purpose.
Sniff-it 2 by Triplett can sniff and beep or light up an
indicator. Take a look.


My thought exactly, except I'm using a similar Sperry branded product.
(the Triplett had excellent reviews, but as I recall it uses odd
batteries - CR2 I think? - whereas the Sperry uses standard AA or AAA
cells.)

However, it will probably only work if you check the individual
conductors inside the breaker box however as the braid in a service
entrance cable may prevent a NCVD from working, and if it's in metal
conduit, fuhgeddaboutit.

At that point, a test light is just as useful...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul


Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul


Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).

"Pete C." wrote:


Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).

I should add that I made those connections while I had the meter pulled
in the process of replacing my panel. I don't recommend anyone but the
most experienced make those connections with the panel live, and
certainly not under load.

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul


Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).


That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do were I trying
to do something like this myself, I just wonder if it's code compliant?

Also, at what voltage do the neon indicators light up? e.g. will they
glow if there's say 10V on the line?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 12/12/2013 4:56 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a
lock-out device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off
the main switch to the street manually and flip to generator
power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on,
other than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have
lights on again. When I just ran extension cords from the
generator to the well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage,
when the power started up again various lights would light up
around the house as they had been on and were still
street-connected. Now, everything is disconnected from the
street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I
could clamp on the main line coming in from the street which
would light up an LED if there were power in the line, but if
there's no current actually flowing I don't see how it would
pick up the potential voltage in the line. Is there such a
thing available or will I have to invent one?

Paul


Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights
for the stage in a night club. To let them know that the power
was on the box at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon
pilot light for each phase. In your case, you can get voltage
sensors that can be wired to an alarm or flashing indicator light
to let you know when your main power comes back on or just wire
up a standard wall light or an exit sign with your own panel
reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to
a metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and
connected to my panel with a metal offset nipple. They are
connected to the input side of the main breaker directly, being
~18ga wire and enclosed in metal enclosures if something fails they
are self fusing and can't start anything on fire. I use an
interlock kit for the generator connection (Square D kit in a
Square D panel).


That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do were I
trying to do something like this myself, I just wonder if it's code
compliant?

Also, at what voltage do the neon indicators light up? e.g. will
they glow if there's say 10V on the line?

nate


Most standard neon pilot lights have a dropping resistor built into the
holder or base and are suitable as a power indicator for any 120vac or
240vac source. The neon pilot light needs at least 90 volts to light if
I'm remembering correctly. ^_^

TDD

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul


Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).


That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do were I trying
to do something like this myself, I just wonder if it's code compliant?

I'm not sure on that, code mostly is concerned with fire risk, and when
enclosed in all metal conduit and box the heat produced in the mS it
takes to vaporize an 18ga wire at fault currents couldn't possibly set
anything outside the enclosure on fire.


Also, at what voltage do the neon indicators light up? e.g. will they
glow if there's say 10V on the line?

A quick look on Digi-Key seems to indicate a 105-125VAC rating on many
indicators. I don't see a clear indication that 105VAC is the threshold,
but I expect it's not too far below that. For more $ you could install
basic panel meters, and probably inline fuses on them, though I'd still
use the indicators as well since you can check them from a distance to
see if utility power is back.

On 12/12/2013 01:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Get a contactor and wire the contacts in series with the line that comes
off of your generator, and the coil in parallel to the mains; when your
power shuts off you will know that the mains are back online.

Jon

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 14:46:35 -0700, "WW"
wrote:



"Pavel314" wrote in message
...

I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out device of
course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main switch to the street
manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other than
looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on again. When I
just ran extension cords from the generator to the well, refrigerators,
etc., during an outage, when the power started up again various lights would
light up around the house as they had been on and were still
street-connected. Now, everything is disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could clamp
on the main line coming in from the street which would light up an LED if
there were power in the line, but if there's no current actually flowing I
don't see how it would pick up the potential voltage in the line. Is there
such a thing available or will I have to invent one?

Paul

Simple. Use induction method. Like a clamp amp meter works. To light your
LED

A clamp meter detects CURRENT - and there is none without a load. I'm
thinking about a neon indicator connected to the line side of the main
switch.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:56:28 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul


Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).


That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do were I trying
to do something like this myself, I just wonder if it's code compliant?

Also, at what voltage do the neon indicators light up? e.g. will they
glow if there's say 10V on the line?

nate
Something like 84 volts, if memory searves me correctly

On 12/12/2013 5:10 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul


Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).


That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do were I trying
to do something like this myself, I just wonder if it's code compliant?

I'm not sure on that, code mostly is concerned with fire risk, and when
enclosed in all metal conduit and box the heat produced in the mS it
takes to vaporize an 18ga wire at fault currents couldn't possibly set
anything outside the enclosure on fire.


I always put an inline fuse holder on the power feeding the indicators
and install a 1 amp or smaller fuse.


Also, at what voltage do the neon indicators light up? e.g. will they
glow if there's say 10V on the line?

A quick look on Digi-Key seems to indicate a 105-125VAC rating on many
indicators. I don't see a clear indication that 105VAC is the threshold,
but I expect it's not too far below that. For more $ you could install
basic panel meters, and probably inline fuses on them, though I'd still
use the indicators as well since you can check them from a distance to
see if utility power is back.


I seem to recall 90vac as the lowest voltage that will light one of
those small neon pilot lights. ^_^

TDD

On 12/12/2013 6:34 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:56:28 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul


Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).


That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do were I trying
to do something like this myself, I just wonder if it's code compliant?

Also, at what voltage do the neon indicators light up? e.g. will they
glow if there's say 10V on the line?

nate
Something like 84 volts, if memory searves me correctly


You have problems accessing long term memory too? I'm getting a USB port
installed in the back of my head so I can plug in a backup drive. ^_^

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 5:10 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul


Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).


That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do were I trying
to do something like this myself, I just wonder if it's code compliant?

I'm not sure on that, code mostly is concerned with fire risk, and when
enclosed in all metal conduit and box the heat produced in the mS it
takes to vaporize an 18ga wire at fault currents couldn't possibly set
anything outside the enclosure on fire.


I always put an inline fuse holder on the power feeding the indicators
and install a 1 amp or smaller fuse.

I thought of that, however I considered that the cheap in-line fuse
holders would present a greater risk when one side is always live. I
think just letting a fault vaporize the wire is safer than potentially
having someone try to replace a fuse and pulling it out bare fingered
from a live fuseholder.



Also, at what voltage do the neon indicators light up? e.g. will they
glow if there's say 10V on the line?

A quick look on Digi-Key seems to indicate a 105-125VAC rating on many
indicators. I don't see a clear indication that 105VAC is the threshold,
but I expect it's not too far below that. For more $ you could install
basic panel meters, and probably inline fuses on them, though I'd still
use the indicators as well since you can check them from a distance to
see if utility power is back.


I seem to recall 90vac as the lowest voltage that will light one of
those small neon pilot lights. ^_^

Sounds familiar to me too.

wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:56:28 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul


Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).


That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do were I trying
to do something like this myself, I just wonder if it's code compliant?

Also, at what voltage do the neon indicators light up? e.g. will they
glow if there's say 10V on the line?

nate
Something like 84 volts, if memory searves me correctly

70 is what I recall. Temperature and light sensitive. Most I see die trying
to get too much brightness.

I don't see any safe option for installing.

Greg

On 12/12/2013 8:34 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 5:10 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul


Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).


That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do were I trying
to do something like this myself, I just wonder if it's code compliant?

I'm not sure on that, code mostly is concerned with fire risk, and when
enclosed in all metal conduit and box the heat produced in the mS it
takes to vaporize an 18ga wire at fault currents couldn't possibly set
anything outside the enclosure on fire.


I always put an inline fuse holder on the power feeding the indicators
and install a 1 amp or smaller fuse.

I thought of that, however I considered that the cheap in-line fuse
holders would present a greater risk when one side is always live. I
think just letting a fault vaporize the wire is safer than potentially
having someone try to replace a fuse and pulling it out bare fingered
from a live fuseholder.


Using a glass fuse holder like the Littelfuse model 155 Series
Twist-Lock In-Line Holders for 3AG Fuses is a safe way to because you
can tie a knot in the pigtail wire on each end to keep the wire up in
the fuse holder. I do that if I don't have any small cable ties to wrap
around the wires to keep them from slipping out of the insulated cap.
The twist-lock in-line holders are safer than the 155 Series Heavy-Duty
Bayonet Knob In-Line Holders because there is no exposed metal when the
fuse holder is opened.

http://www.littelfuse.com/products/f...rs/155100.aspx

http://www.littelfuse.com/products/f...ers/15500.aspx

The problem with your fuse-link wire is if it melts, the wire could
touch the metal housing if the insulation burns off. You could your fuse
link inside some fiberglass sleeve like what is used to insulate
electric motor lead wires. It's heat resistant and the burned wire will
not burn through.

http://www.essexbrownell.com/tubingandsleeving.aspx



Also, at what voltage do the neon indicators light up? e.g. will they
glow if there's say 10V on the line?

A quick look on Digi-Key seems to indicate a 105-125VAC rating on many
indicators. I don't see a clear indication that 105VAC is the threshold,
but I expect it's not too far below that. For more $ you could install
basic panel meters, and probably inline fuses on them, though I'd still
use the indicators as well since you can check them from a distance to
see if utility power is back.


I seem to recall 90vac as the lowest voltage that will light one of
those small neon pilot lights. ^_^

Sounds familiar to me too.


I have years of experience shorting out and burning up electrical and
electronic stuff when I've done my mad scientist like experiments with
electricity. ^_^

TDD

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:12:50 -0800 (PST), Pavel314
wrote:

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street


Get yourself a robotic leg. Connect it to the mains from the meter.
When the power comes back on, the leg kicks your generator over, or
kicks you in the ass......

gregz wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:56:28 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul


Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).


That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do were I trying
to do something like this myself, I just wonder if it's code compliant?

Also, at what voltage do the neon indicators light up? e.g. will they
glow if there's say 10V on the line?

nate
Something like 84 volts, if memory searves me correctly

70 is what I recall. Temperature and light sensitive. Most I see die trying
to get too much brightness.



I don't see any safe option for installing.

? Pull the meter and install with everything safely unpowered. If you
are very experienced, turn off the main breaker so no load, put on your
insulating gloves and face shield and carefully loosen the main input
lug, slip in the indicator wire and retighten.

On 12/12/2013 7:13 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/12/2013 5:10 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul

Some utility meters have LEDs that indicate there is power. A
'non-contact' voltage tester might indicate if held next to the meter in
the right spot. I don't know of a simple method other than that I would
use to show the power is back on.



Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected
to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).

So what happens if the #18 wire acts as a fuse? There are a few thousand
amps fault current available at the service. A fault of a few thousand
amps through #18 wire will continue an arc over a rather long distance.
And what will happen with the 'spring' in the wire - where will the
wires go when they are broken at the arc?


That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do were I trying
to do something like this myself, I just wonder if it's code compliant?

Nope.


I'm not sure on that, code mostly is concerned with fire risk, and when
enclosed in all metal conduit and box the heat produced in the mS it
takes to vaporize an 18ga wire at fault currents couldn't possibly set
anything outside the enclosure on fire.

It is a rather different case. But downtown there was a maybe 8 story
building that had a fire. They tore it down to the first floor and
basement, installed a ramp, and used what was left as a parking lot. The
original service remained (208/120V), far larger than needed, with 6
parallel sets of service wires. They cleverly stored salt for the ramp
on top of the service switchgear. The service wound up with an arc-fault
and burned down. Some of the service wires burned back into the supply
conduits. Some of them were live in the conduit. Some wires welded to
the conduit and the utility couldn't pull them out with a comealong.
(The wires were protected by "cable limiters" at the utility transformer
vault.


I always put an inline fuse holder on the power feeding the indicators
and install a 1 amp or smaller fuse.

So what happens if there is a large fault current through the fuse? Like
the wire, with high current the arc continues and the fuse and fuse
holder blow up. Fuses have a rating for available fault current. In most
applications on a branch circuit you don't think about it. When you have
high fault currents available you have to (and are required to by the NEC).

[The fuses included in some Fluke meters are rated for high fault
currents and the meters have a "category" rating for use where there are
high available fault currents.]

Is a problem likely? Don't know. But I wouldn't connect anything to the
service wire terminals.



Also, at what voltage do the neon indicators light up? e.g. will they
glow if there's say 10V on the line?

A quick look on Digi-Key seems to indicate a 105-125VAC rating on many
indicators. I don't see a clear indication that 105VAC is the threshold,
but I expect it's not too far below that. For more $ you could install
basic panel meters, and probably inline fuses on them, though I'd still
use the indicators as well since you can check them from a distance to
see if utility power is back.


I seem to recall 90vac as the lowest voltage that will light one of
those small neon pilot lights. ^_^

TDD

NE-51 (bayonet base) and NE-2 (wire lead) are common neon pilot lights.
They trigger on at about 65V (and would be used at a higher voltage).
Neon lamps must have a series resistor which is built into the
assemblies above.

On 12/13/2013 11:37 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 12/12/2013 7:13 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/12/2013 5:10 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a
lock-out device of course. If the power goes out, I'll
turn off the main switch to the street manually and flip
to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back
on, other than looking down the street to see if the
neighbors have lights on again. When I just ran extension
cords from the generator to the well, refrigerators,
etc., during an outage, when the power started up again
various lights would light up around the house as they
had been on and were still street-connected. Now,
everything is disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction
device I could clamp on the main line coming in from the
street which would light up an LED if there were power in
the line, but if there's no current actually flowing I
don't see how it would pick up the potential voltage in
the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul

Some utility meters have LEDs that indicate there is power. A
'non-contact' voltage tester might indicate if held next to the meter
in the right spot. I don't know of a simple method other than that I
would use to show the power is back on.



Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up
lights for the stage in a night club. To let them know that
the power was on the box at the end of the conduit, I
installed a neon pilot light for each phase. In your case,
you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to an alarm
or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light
or an exit sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators
mounted to a metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical
box and connected to my panel with a metal offset nipple.
They are connected to the input side of the main breaker
directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal enclosures
if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator
connection (Square D kit in a Square D panel).

So what happens if the #18 wire acts as a fuse? There are a few
thousand amps fault current available at the service. A fault of a
few thousand amps through #18 wire will continue an arc over a rather
long distance. And what will happen with the 'spring' in the wire -
where will the wires go when they are broken at the arc?


That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do were
I trying to do something like this myself, I just wonder if
it's code compliant?

Nope.


I'm not sure on that, code mostly is concerned with fire risk,
and when enclosed in all metal conduit and box the heat produced
in the mS it takes to vaporize an 18ga wire at fault currents
couldn't possibly set anything outside the enclosure on fire.

It is a rather different case. But downtown there was a maybe 8 story
building that had a fire. They tore it down to the first floor and
basement, installed a ramp, and used what was left as a parking lot.
The original service remained (208/120V), far larger than needed,
with 6 parallel sets of service wires. They cleverly stored salt for
the ramp on top of the service switchgear. The service wound up with
an arc-fault and burned down. Some of the service wires burned back
into the supply conduits. Some of them were live in the conduit. Some
wires welded to the conduit and the utility couldn't pull them out
with a comealong. (The wires were protected by "cable limiters" at
the utility transformer vault.


I always put an inline fuse holder on the power feeding the
indicators and install a 1 amp or smaller fuse.

So what happens if there is a large fault current through the fuse?
Like the wire, with high current the arc continues and the fuse and
fuse holder blow up. Fuses have a rating for available fault current.
In most applications on a branch circuit you don't think about it.
When you have high fault currents available you have to (and are
required to by the NEC).

[The fuses included in some Fluke meters are rated for high fault
currents and the meters have a "category" rating for use where there
are high available fault currents.]

Is a problem likely? Don't know. But I wouldn't connect anything to
the service wire terminals.



Also, at what voltage do the neon indicators light up? e.g.
will they glow if there's say 10V on the line?

A quick look on Digi-Key seems to indicate a 105-125VAC rating on
many indicators. I don't see a clear indication that 105VAC is
the threshold, but I expect it's not too far below that. For more
$ you could install basic panel meters, and probably inline fuses
on them, though I'd still use the indicators as well since you
can check them from a distance to see if utility power is back.


I seem to recall 90vac as the lowest voltage that will light one
of those small neon pilot lights. ^_^

TDD

NE-51 (bayonet base) and NE-2 (wire lead) are common neon pilot
lights. They trigger on at about 65V (and would be used at a higher
voltage). Neon lamps must have a series resistor which is built into
the assemblies above.


Bud, I think you may have been responding to the wrong poster but your
thoughts are welcome. ^_^

TDD

bud-- wrote:

On 12/12/2013 7:13 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/12/2013 5:10 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul

Some utility meters have LEDs that indicate there is power. A
'non-contact' voltage tester might indicate if held next to the meter in
the right spot. I don't know of a simple method other than that I would
use to show the power is back on.



Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected
to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).

So what happens if the #18 wire acts as a fuse? There are a few thousand
amps fault current available at the service. A fault of a few thousand
amps through #18 wire will continue an arc over a rather long distance.
And what will happen with the 'spring' in the wire - where will the
wires go when they are broken at the arc?

If an arc is maintained on the 18ga wire it won't be for long.
Ultimately it will burn back to extinguish the arc in a matter of
milliseconds. Either way there is no chance of it starting a sustained
fire in my house. Safety wise it's not much different than a wire nut
coming loose, something that happens from time to time.



That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do were I trying
to do something like this myself, I just wonder if it's code compliant?

Nope.

No code requirements here so I don't care.



I'm not sure on that, code mostly is concerned with fire risk, and when
enclosed in all metal conduit and box the heat produced in the mS it
takes to vaporize an 18ga wire at fault currents couldn't possibly set
anything outside the enclosure on fire.

It is a rather different case. But downtown there was a maybe 8 story
building that had a fire. They tore it down to the first floor and
basement, installed a ramp, and used what was left as a parking lot. The
original service remained (208/120V), far larger than needed, with 6
parallel sets of service wires. They cleverly stored salt for the ramp
on top of the service switchgear. The service wound up with an arc-fault
and burned down. Some of the service wires burned back into the supply
conduits. Some of them were live in the conduit. Some wires welded to
the conduit and the utility couldn't pull them out with a comealong.
(The wires were protected by "cable limiters" at the utility transformer
vault.

Do a test with 18ga wire connected across even a 100A breaker, much less
a service drop limited only by the transformer and see if any of the
wire is left. My assessment is that installing any kind of replaceable
fuse presents more of a hazard than the non-replaceable fuse-link the
wire presents.



I always put an inline fuse holder on the power feeding the indicators
and install a 1 amp or smaller fuse.

So what happens if there is a large fault current through the fuse? Like
the wire, with high current the arc continues and the fuse and fuse
holder blow up. Fuses have a rating for available fault current. In most
applications on a branch circuit you don't think about it. When you have
high fault currents available you have to (and are required to by the NEC).

[The fuses included in some Fluke meters are rated for high fault
currents and the meters have a "category" rating for use where there are
high available fault currents.]

Is a problem likely? Don't know. But I wouldn't connect anything to the
service wire terminals.

Every single automatic transfer switch connects monitoring to the
utility service. It's a total non-issue, much like 3D printed guns.




Also, at what voltage do the neon indicators light up? e.g. will they
glow if there's say 10V on the line?

A quick look on Digi-Key seems to indicate a 105-125VAC rating on many
indicators. I don't see a clear indication that 105VAC is the threshold,
but I expect it's not too far below that. For more $ you could install
basic panel meters, and probably inline fuses on them, though I'd still
use the indicators as well since you can check them from a distance to
see if utility power is back.


I seem to recall 90vac as the lowest voltage that will light one of
those small neon pilot lights. ^_^

TDD

NE-51 (bayonet base) and NE-2 (wire lead) are common neon pilot lights.
They trigger on at about 65V (and would be used at a higher voltage).
Neon lamps must have a series resistor which is built into the
assemblies above.

On 12/12/2013 4:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started up again various lights would light up around the house as they had been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have to invent one?

Paul


My transfer box only isolates and works on certain circuits.
When power is restored the unisolated circuits come back on.

On 12/13/2013 11:56 AM, Pete C. wrote:

bud-- wrote:

On 12/12/2013 7:13 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/12/2013 5:10 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with
a lock-out device of course. If the power goes out,
I'll turn off the main switch to the street manually
and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is
back on, other than looking down the street to see if
the neighbors have lights on again. When I just ran
extension cords from the generator to the well,
refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power
started up again various lights would light up around
the house as they had been on and were still
street-connected. Now, everything is disconnected from
the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction
device I could clamp on the main line coming in from
the street which would light up an LED if there were
power in the line, but if there's no current actually
flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or
will I have to invent one?

Paul

Some utility meters have LEDs that indicate there is power. A
'non-contact' voltage tester might indicate if held next to the
meter in the right spot. I don't know of a simple method other than
that I would use to show the power is back on.



Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up
lights for the stage in a night club. To let them know
that the power was on the box at the end of the conduit,
I installed a neon pilot light for each phase. In your
case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to an
alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when
your main power comes back on or just wire up a standard
wall light or an exit sign with your own panel reading
"POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators
mounted to a metal box cover, installed in a metal
electrical box and connected to my panel with a metal
offset nipple. They are connected to the input side of the
main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in
metal enclosures if something fails they are self fusing
and can't start anything on fire. I use an interlock kit
for the generator connection (Square D kit in a Square D
panel).

So what happens if the #18 wire acts as a fuse? There are a few
thousand amps fault current available at the service. A fault of a
few thousand amps through #18 wire will continue an arc over a
rather long distance. And what will happen with the 'spring' in the
wire - where will the wires go when they are broken at the arc?

If an arc is maintained on the 18ga wire it won't be for long.
Ultimately it will burn back to extinguish the arc in a matter of
milliseconds. Either way there is no chance of it starting a
sustained fire in my house. Safety wise it's not much different than
a wire nut coming loose, something that happens from time to time.



That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do
were I trying to do something like this myself, I just wonder
if it's code compliant?

Nope.

No code requirements here so I don't care.



I'm not sure on that, code mostly is concerned with fire risk,
and when enclosed in all metal conduit and box the heat
produced in the mS it takes to vaporize an 18ga wire at fault
currents couldn't possibly set anything outside the enclosure
on fire.

It is a rather different case. But downtown there was a maybe 8
story building that had a fire. They tore it down to the first
floor and basement, installed a ramp, and used what was left as a
parking lot. The original service remained (208/120V), far larger
than needed, with 6 parallel sets of service wires. They cleverly
stored salt for the ramp on top of the service switchgear. The
service wound up with an arc-fault and burned down. Some of the
service wires burned back into the supply conduits. Some of them
were live in the conduit. Some wires welded to the conduit and the
utility couldn't pull them out with a comealong. (The wires were
protected by "cable limiters" at the utility transformer vault.

Do a test with 18ga wire connected across even a 100A breaker, much
less a service drop limited only by the transformer and see if any of
the wire is left. My assessment is that installing any kind of
replaceable fuse presents more of a hazard than the non-replaceable
fuse-link the wire presents.


Many vehicles have a fuse link inside a thick heat resistant silicone
rubber jacket. When the wire melts, it doesn't penetrate the insulation
so it's very safe. You can make your own safe fuse link with #18 wire by
putting it inside some braided fiberglass insulated sleeve like what is
used inside electric motors or appliances with electric heating
elements. ^_^

http://www.electroinsulation.com/ext...-sleeving.html

http://preview.tinyurl.com/ojf2x7h

TDD

On 12/13/2013 01:14 PM, Frank wrote:
On 12/12/2013 4:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main switch
to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the well,
refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started up again
various lights would light up around the house as they had been on and
were still street-connected. Now, everything is disconnected from the
street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have to
invent one?

Paul


My transfer box only isolates and works on certain circuits.
When power is restored the unisolated circuits come back on.

Indeed, and if the OP had that kind of setup, with certain selected
circuits being run from a generator sub-panel, it would be trivial to
put a pair of lights on the load side of a two pole breaker in the main
panel. My understanding of what the OP had was only one panel, with a
main breaker that was connected to the service, and a separate breaker
"backfeeding" the panel from the generator, with an interlock device so
that only one of the two (main breaker and generator breaker) could be
in the "on" position at any time. Thus if the generator is in use, the
main breaker is turned off and therefore the only way to check for
voltage on the service is at the service itself, hence this whole
discussion.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:37:21 -0600, bud-- wrote:

On 12/12/2013 7:13 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/12/2013 5:10 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul

Some utility meters have LEDs that indicate there is power. A
'non-contact' voltage tester might indicate if held next to the meter in
the right spot. I don't know of a simple method other than that I would
use to show the power is back on.



Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected
to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).

So what happens if the #18 wire acts as a fuse? There are a few thousand
amps fault current available at the service. A fault of a few thousand
amps through #18 wire will continue an arc over a rather long distance.
And what will happen with the 'spring' in the wire - where will the
wires go when they are broken at the arc?


That sounds like a good idea, and probably what I would do were I trying
to do something like this myself, I just wonder if it's code compliant?

Nope.


I'm not sure on that, code mostly is concerned with fire risk, and when
enclosed in all metal conduit and box the heat produced in the mS it
takes to vaporize an 18ga wire at fault currents couldn't possibly set
anything outside the enclosure on fire.

It is a rather different case. But downtown there was a maybe 8 story
building that had a fire. They tore it down to the first floor and
basement, installed a ramp, and used what was left as a parking lot. The
original service remained (208/120V), far larger than needed, with 6
parallel sets of service wires. They cleverly stored salt for the ramp
on top of the service switchgear. The service wound up with an arc-fault
and burned down. Some of the service wires burned back into the supply
conduits. Some of them were live in the conduit. Some wires welded to
the conduit and the utility couldn't pull them out with a comealong.
(The wires were protected by "cable limiters" at the utility transformer
vault.


I always put an inline fuse holder on the power feeding the indicators
and install a 1 amp or smaller fuse.

So what happens if there is a large fault current through the fuse? Like
the wire, with high current the arc continues and the fuse and fuse
holder blow up. Fuses have a rating for available fault current. In most
applications on a branch circuit you don't think about it. When you have
high fault currents available you have to (and are required to by the NEC).

[The fuses included in some Fluke meters are rated for high fault
currents and the meters have a "category" rating for use where there are
high available fault currents.]

Is a problem likely? Don't know. But I wouldn't connect anything to the
service wire terminals.



Also, at what voltage do the neon indicators light up? e.g. will they
glow if there's say 10V on the line?

A quick look on Digi-Key seems to indicate a 105-125VAC rating on many
indicators. I don't see a clear indication that 105VAC is the threshold,
but I expect it's not too far below that. For more $ you could install
basic panel meters, and probably inline fuses on them, though I'd still
use the indicators as well since you can check them from a distance to
see if utility power is back.


I seem to recall 90vac as the lowest voltage that will light one of
those small neon pilot lights. ^_^

TDD

NE-51 (bayonet base) and NE-2 (wire lead) are common neon pilot lights.
They trigger on at about 65V (and would be used at a higher voltage).
Neon lamps must have a series resistor which is built into the
assemblies above.



A REAL simple way to use a neon with no fault current issues - connect
one end of an ne2 to L1 or L2 and attach about 10 inches of insulated
wire on the other end - capacitive ground will light the neon.

I used to have an ne2 attached to the end of my CB antenna - and it
lit every time I keyed the mic.

wrote in message ...

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 14:46:35 -0700, "WW"
wrote:



"Pavel314" wrote in message
...

I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out device of
course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main switch to the street
manually and flip to generator power.

Snip
Simple. Use induction method. Like a clamp amp meter works. To light your
LED

A clamp meter detects CURRENT - and there is none without a load. I'm
thinking about a neon indicator connected to the line side of the main
switch.

In commercial high use of power a current (transformer) in line with the
load. Referring to high amps usage. 400, 800, 1000 or more. A copper bar is
wrapped with coils of small wire.
This produces a voltage the is connected to a normal utility electric meter
(like one on your house) this is then measured indicating usage divided by
the amp size of the current transformer. So a few turns of wire around the
line wire can produce a small voltage. There Must Be a load current in the
line wire for this to work. I will try to come up with a practical setup and
get back to this site. WW

On 12/13/2013 11:56 AM, Pete C. wrote:

bud-- wrote:

On 12/12/2013 7:13 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/12/2013 5:10 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 12/12/2013 05:49 PM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/12/2013 3:12 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
I recently hooked my generator into the main box, with a lock-out
device of course. If the power goes out, I'll turn off the main
switch to the street manually and flip to generator power.

The problem is how to know when the street power is back on, other
than looking down the street to see if the neighbors have lights on
again. When I just ran extension cords from the generator to the
well, refrigerators, etc., during an outage, when the power started
up again various lights would light up around the house as they had
been on and were still street-connected. Now, everything is
disconnected from the street.

It would be nice if there were some sort of induction device I could
clamp on the main line coming in from the street which would light up
an LED if there were power in the line, but if there's no current
actually flowing I don't see how it would pick up the potential
voltage in the line. Is there such a thing available or will I have
to invent one?

Paul

Some utility meters have LEDs that indicate there is power. A
'non-contact' voltage tester might indicate if held next to the meter in
the right spot. I don't know of a simple method other than that I would
use to show the power is back on.



Years ago, I installed some taps for roadies to hook up lights for the
stage in a night club. To let them know that the power was on the box
at the end of the conduit, I installed a neon pilot light for each
phase. In your case, you can get voltage sensors that can be wired to
an alarm or flashing indicator light to let you know when your main
power comes back on or just wire up a standard wall light or an exit
sign with your own panel reading "POWER". ^_^

TDD

Along those lines I installed a pair of neon indicators mounted to a
metal box cover, installed in a metal electrical box and connected
to my
panel with a metal offset nipple. They are connected to the input side
of the main breaker directly, being ~18ga wire and enclosed in metal
enclosures if something fails they are self fusing and can't start
anything on fire. I use an interlock kit for the generator connection
(Square D kit in a Square D panel).

So what happens if the #18 wire acts as a fuse? There are a few thousand
amps fault current available at the service. A fault of a few thousand
amps through #18 wire will continue an arc over a rather long distance.
And what will happen with the 'spring' in the wire - where will the
wires go when they are broken at the arc?

If an arc is maintained on the 18ga wire it won't be for long.
Ultimately it will burn back to extinguish the arc in a matter of
milliseconds. Either way there is no chance of it starting a sustained
fire in my house.

Time depends on fault current, wire 'spring, magnetic effects.

Safety wise it's not much different than a wire nut
coming loose, something that happens from time to time.

You don't have thousands of amps available at a wire nut.


I'm not sure on that, code mostly is concerned with fire risk, and when
enclosed in all metal conduit and box the heat produced in the mS it
takes to vaporize an 18ga wire at fault currents couldn't possibly set
anything outside the enclosure on fire.

It is a rather different case. But downtown there was a maybe 8 story
building that had a fire. They tore it down to the first floor and
basement, installed a ramp, and used what was left as a parking lot. The
original service remained (208/120V), far larger than needed, with 6
parallel sets of service wires. They cleverly stored salt for the ramp
on top of the service switchgear. The service wound up with an arc-fault
and burned down. Some of the service wires burned back into the supply
conduits. Some of them were live in the conduit. Some wires welded to
the conduit and the utility couldn't pull them out with a comealong.
(The wires were protected by "cable limiters" at the utility transformer
vault.

Do a test with 18ga wire connected across even a 100A breaker, much less
a service drop limited only by the transformer and see if any of the
wire is left.

I have seen videos of using the wrong meter in a high capacity
disconnect where the meter lead failure propagated to an arc-flash. That
started with 'none of the wire left'.


My assessment is that installing any kind of replaceable
fuse presents more of a hazard than the non-replaceable fuse-link the
wire presents.



I always put an inline fuse holder on the power feeding the indicators
and install a 1 amp or smaller fuse.

So what happens if there is a large fault current through the fuse? Like
the wire, with high current the arc continues and the fuse and fuse
holder blow up. Fuses have a rating for available fault current. In most
applications on a branch circuit you don't think about it. When you have
high fault currents available you have to (and are required to by the NEC).

[The fuses included in some Fluke meters are rated for high fault
currents and the meters have a "category" rating for use where there are
high available fault currents.]

Is a problem likely? Don't know. But I wouldn't connect anything to the
service wire terminals.

Every single automatic transfer switch connects monitoring to the
utility service.

Part of a listed device, and not likely unprotected #18 wire connected
to service wires.

On 12/13/2013 12:56 PM, Pete C. wrote:
Every single automatic transfer switch connects monitoring to the
utility service. It's a total non-issue, much like 3D printed guns.

FWIW, my 200 amp Generac ATS has a 15 amp breaker for the board that monitors the utility power.

Bubba wrote:

On 12/13/2013 12:56 PM, Pete C. wrote:
Every single automatic transfer switch connects monitoring to the
utility service. It's a total non-issue, much like 3D printed guns.

FWIW, my 200 amp Generac ATS has a 15 amp breaker for the board that monitors the utility power.

My 18ga wires to the indicators will "fuse" at 15A.