I live in the country and have a well. My water is hard and has iron,
but tastes good and does not clog pipes. The worst problem is that
orange ring in the toilet that I have to clean every so often. I can
live with that, compared to what is happening in a close by town.

The town has a large deep well that fills two water towers. From there
it's piped to the homes and businesses. Apparently that water is coming
from a source that contains lots of calcium rock. What is happening is
that people in town have to replace their water heaters every few years
because the heaters can and do completely fill with calcium deposits.

A friend in town called me last week to ask why his hot water is only
warm and not hot. I went there and tested the elements in this 3 year
old electric water heater. The lower element was dead. We bought
another element, and I proceeded to shut off the cold water, and
electricity to the tank, then attempt to drain the tank. The water came
out of the drain valve drip by drip. I tried to remove the plastic
valve from the tank, but it would not budge, and I hesitated to try
harder in fear of breaking it off. I suggested we get pails and just
remove the element and catch the water in the pails. This element was
very stubborn to remove, but it finally came out. What I found inside
the tank was shocking. The entire lower element was buried in calcium
sludge, and the electrode part of it. had broken off and remained inside
this sludge in the tank.

I grabbed a long thick screwdriver and began to dig out this sludge,
which eventually allowed to water to exit the tank faster. The water
looked more like milk in color. I asked him several times about the age
of the tank, and he insisted it was 3 years old. He finally went and
got the paperwork for the tank and showed me the receipt which showed it
was actually 3-1/2 years old. I was shocked. I've worked on tanks that
were 20 years old and never seem so much crud in them (in other cities
and towns).

The decision was to dig out as much of this sludge as possible, and
install the new element until he can afford a new water heater. This
worked for now, but is not the ideal fix. Just for the heck of it, I
phoned a local plumber, and asked him is this is a common problem in
this town. He said that closeto half of his calls are due to water
heaters that are filled with sludge, and need to be replaced. He said
most water heaters last 5 years at most.

My reason for posting this message is because I'm wondering if there is
anything that can be done to filter out this calcium before it gets into
the water heaters? I know little about water softeners, but from what I
do know, they are more intended for hard water, which would be more what
my water is, with the iron in it. Whether they will remove calcium is
something I dont know, particularly when the calcium levels are so high.

Is there anything else that can help this problem? I'm curious !!!

Lastly, I was thinking that when my friend gets a new water heater,
would it be possible to dump the old tank upside down to remove as much
of this sludge as possible from the pipe inlets, then to pour a gallon
of vinegar in the tank. Will the vinegar disolve and thus remove the
calcium? Or maybe a weak acid? It seems wasteful to trash a 3 year old
water heater if this sludge can be removed. Once he gets a new heater,
I'd like to take that old one and experiment to see what can clean it
out. I'm sure that tank could be used for many more years if that
calcium could be removed, and new elements installed.

I also think that the reason the lower element burned out was because of
that calcium coating it. The heat is not being dissipated fast enough
into the water and that sludge is acting like an insulation, which
caused the element to overheat and burn out. This is my opinion anyhow.

Has anyone successfully cleaned out a tank like this?

By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on
the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of
this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.

wrote in message
...
I live in the country and have a well. My water is hard and has iron,
but tastes good and does not clog pipes. The worst problem is that
orange ring in the toilet that I have to clean every so often. I can
live with that, compared to what is happening in a close by town.

The town has a large deep well that fills two water towers. From there
it's piped to the homes and businesses. Apparently that water is coming
from a source that contains lots of calcium rock. What is happening is
that people in town have to replace their water heaters every few years
because the heaters can and do completely fill with calcium deposits.

A friend in town called me last week to ask why his hot water is only
warm and not hot. I went there and tested the elements in this 3 year
old electric water heater. The lower element was dead. We bought
another element, and I proceeded to shut off the cold water, and
electricity to the tank, then attempt to drain the tank. The water came
out of the drain valve drip by drip. I tried to remove the plastic
valve from the tank, but it would not budge, and I hesitated to try
harder in fear of breaking it off. I suggested we get pails and just
remove the element and catch the water in the pails. This element was
very stubborn to remove, but it finally came out. What I found inside
the tank was shocking. The entire lower element was buried in calcium
sludge, and the electrode part of it. had broken off and remained inside
this sludge in the tank.

I grabbed a long thick screwdriver and began to dig out this sludge,
which eventually allowed to water to exit the tank faster. The water
looked more like milk in color. I asked him several times about the age
of the tank, and he insisted it was 3 years old. He finally went and
got the paperwork for the tank and showed me the receipt which showed it
was actually 3-1/2 years old. I was shocked. I've worked on tanks that
were 20 years old and never seem so much crud in them (in other cities
and towns).

The decision was to dig out as much of this sludge as possible, and
install the new element until he can afford a new water heater. This
worked for now, but is not the ideal fix. Just for the heck of it, I
phoned a local plumber, and asked him is this is a common problem in
this town. He said that closeto half of his calls are due to water
heaters that are filled with sludge, and need to be replaced. He said
most water heaters last 5 years at most.

My reason for posting this message is because I'm wondering if there is
anything that can be done to filter out this calcium before it gets into
the water heaters? I know little about water softeners, but from what I
do know, they are more intended for hard water, which would be more what
my water is, with the iron in it. Whether they will remove calcium is
something I dont know, particularly when the calcium levels are so high.

Is there anything else that can help this problem? I'm curious !!!

Lastly, I was thinking that when my friend gets a new water heater,
would it be possible to dump the old tank upside down to remove as much
of this sludge as possible from the pipe inlets, then to pour a gallon
of vinegar in the tank. Will the vinegar disolve and thus remove the
calcium? Or maybe a weak acid? It seems wasteful to trash a 3 year old
water heater if this sludge can be removed. Once he gets a new heater,
I'd like to take that old one and experiment to see what can clean it
out. I'm sure that tank could be used for many more years if that
calcium could be removed, and new elements installed.

I also think that the reason the lower element burned out was because of
that calcium coating it. The heat is not being dissipated fast enough
into the water and that sludge is acting like an insulation, which
caused the element to overheat and burn out. This is my opinion anyhow.

Has anyone successfully cleaned out a tank like this?

By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on
the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of
this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.


They can only be chemically cleaned. Quite often after cleaning they leak
and it is an expensive time consumng business.
What you need is a water softener but you will need to buy salt to
regenerate it.
Don't bother with the electric/magnetiscgizmos, they are snakeoil.

You should not be drinking the softened water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_softener

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 00:38:17 -0500, wrote:




My reason for posting this message is because I'm wondering if there is
anything that can be done to filter out this calcium before it gets into
the water heaters? I know little about water softeners, but from what I
do know, they are more intended for hard water, which would be more what
my water is, with the iron in it. Whether they will remove calcium is
something I dont know, particularly when the calcium levels are so high.

Is there anything else that can help this problem? I'm curious !!!

Softeners use sodium to replace calcium. Sounds like what he needs.
It can be put on the line feeding the hot water only if that is the
only problem.

There are also filter systems for calcium, but I have no idea how well
they work.

wrote in message


My reason for posting this message is because I'm
wondering if there is anything that can be done to filter
out this calcium before it gets into the water heaters?
I know little about water softeners, but from what I do
know, they are more intended for hard water, which would
be more what my water is, with the iron in it. Whether
they will remove calcium is something I dont know,
particularly when the calcium levels are so high.

Hard water is "hard" because of dissolved limestone - calcium - not iron.

Water softeners remove calcium; as an added benefit, they remove some iron.
The fix for your friend is a water softener; the *best* fix is for the town
to soften the water before it is piped to all the homes they are screwing
up.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Gunn,

If this fellow has that much calcium in his water it should be really
obvious. There will be calcium buildup on all of his plumbing fixtures and
some of his appliances. It's really hard to believe that an entire town has
this problem but nobody has heard of water softeners. Sounds like this guy
needs a whole house water softener. If he likes the taste of the hard water
(some folks do)then hard water can be run to the kitchen sink's cold water
faucet with some plumbing.
A water softener will remove the calcium in the water, usually by
replacing it with sodium. Such water softeners aren't happy about iron and
must be cleaned occasionally with iron removers. Sears, sells water
softeners so they test water for free. He should get his water tested asap.
The test should tell him how much hardness and iron is in his water and the
pH. Once he knows what he's got in his water he can shop for a softener, if
necessary. To get the free test he'll need to listen to the salesman's
pitch. He should Google water softeners so he can follow the sales pitch.

Dave M.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 07:40:43 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

wrote in message


My reason for posting this message is because I'm
wondering if there is anything that can be done to filter
out this calcium before it gets into the water heaters?
I know little about water softeners, but from what I do
know, they are more intended for hard water, which would
be more what my water is, with the iron in it. Whether
they will remove calcium is something I dont know,
particularly when the calcium levels are so high.

Hard water is "hard" because of dissolved limestone - calcium - not iron.

Water softeners remove calcium; as an added benefit, they remove some iron.
The fix for your friend is a water softener; the *best* fix is for the town
to soften the water before it is piped to all the homes they are screwing
up.
I grew up in a town with some of the hardest (and most delicious)
water in Ontario. Water softeners were almost mandatory. Those wells
have been closed due to contamination by a multinational chemical
company, with water now fed from the nearby city of waterloo which
uses both wells and "artificial recharge" from the grand river - which
has significantly tempered the hardness of the local water supply.

Still use softeners though.

wrote in message
...
I live in the country and have a well. My water is hard and has iron,
but tastes good and does not clog pipes. The worst problem is that
orange ring in the toilet that I have to clean every so often. I can
live with that, compared to what is happening in a close by town.

The town has a large deep well that fills two water towers. From there
it's piped to the homes and businesses. Apparently that water is coming
from a source that contains lots of calcium rock. What is happening is
that people in town have to replace their water heaters every few years
because the heaters can and do completely fill with calcium deposits.

A friend in town called me last week to ask why his hot water is only
warm and not hot. I went there and tested the elements in this 3 year
old electric water heater. The lower element was dead. We bought
another element, and I proceeded to shut off the cold water, and
electricity to the tank, then attempt to drain the tank. The water came
out of the drain valve drip by drip. I tried to remove the plastic
valve from the tank, but it would not budge, and I hesitated to try
harder in fear of breaking it off. I suggested we get pails and just
remove the element and catch the water in the pails. This element was
very stubborn to remove, but it finally came out. What I found inside
the tank was shocking. The entire lower element was buried in calcium
sludge, and the electrode part of it. had broken off and remained inside
this sludge in the tank.

I grabbed a long thick screwdriver and began to dig out this sludge,
which eventually allowed to water to exit the tank faster. The water
looked more like milk in color. I asked him several times about the age
of the tank, and he insisted it was 3 years old. He finally went and
got the paperwork for the tank and showed me the receipt which showed it
was actually 3-1/2 years old. I was shocked. I've worked on tanks that
were 20 years old and never seem so much crud in them (in other cities
and towns).

The decision was to dig out as much of this sludge as possible, and
install the new element until he can afford a new water heater. This
worked for now, but is not the ideal fix. Just for the heck of it, I
phoned a local plumber, and asked him is this is a common problem in
this town. He said that closeto half of his calls are due to water
heaters that are filled with sludge, and need to be replaced. He said
most water heaters last 5 years at most.

My reason for posting this message is because I'm wondering if there is
anything that can be done to filter out this calcium before it gets into
the water heaters? I know little about water softeners, but from what I
do know, they are more intended for hard water, which would be more what
my water is, with the iron in it. Whether they will remove calcium is
something I dont know, particularly when the calcium levels are so high.

Is there anything else that can help this problem? I'm curious !!!

Lastly, I was thinking that when my friend gets a new water heater,
would it be possible to dump the old tank upside down to remove as much
of this sludge as possible from the pipe inlets, then to pour a gallon
of vinegar in the tank. Will the vinegar disolve and thus remove the
calcium? Or maybe a weak acid? It seems wasteful to trash a 3 year old
water heater if this sludge can be removed. Once he gets a new heater,
I'd like to take that old one and experiment to see what can clean it
out. I'm sure that tank could be used for many more years if that
calcium could be removed, and new elements installed.

I also think that the reason the lower element burned out was because of
that calcium coating it. The heat is not being dissipated fast enough
into the water and that sludge is acting like an insulation, which
caused the element to overheat and burn out. This is my opinion anyhow.

Has anyone successfully cleaned out a tank like this?

By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on
the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of
this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.


An aside: What's the incident of kidney stones and heart problems?

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 1:38:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I live in the country and have a well. My water is hard and has iron,

but tastes good and does not clog pipes. The worst problem is that

orange ring in the toilet that I have to clean every so often. I can

live with that, compared to what is happening in a close by town.



The town has a large deep well that fills two water towers. From there

it's piped to the homes and businesses. Apparently that water is coming

from a source that contains lots of calcium rock. What is happening is

that people in town have to replace their water heaters every few years

because the heaters can and do completely fill with calcium deposits.



A friend in town called me last week to ask why his hot water is only

warm and not hot. I went there and tested the elements in this 3 year

old electric water heater. The lower element was dead. We bought

another element, and I proceeded to shut off the cold water, and

electricity to the tank, then attempt to drain the tank. The water came

out of the drain valve drip by drip. I tried to remove the plastic

valve from the tank, but it would not budge, and I hesitated to try

harder in fear of breaking it off. I suggested we get pails and just

remove the element and catch the water in the pails. This element was

very stubborn to remove, but it finally came out. What I found inside

the tank was shocking. The entire lower element was buried in calcium

sludge, and the electrode part of it. had broken off and remained inside

this sludge in the tank.



I grabbed a long thick screwdriver and began to dig out this sludge,

which eventually allowed to water to exit the tank faster. The water

looked more like milk in color. I asked him several times about the age

of the tank, and he insisted it was 3 years old. He finally went and

got the paperwork for the tank and showed me the receipt which showed it

was actually 3-1/2 years old. I was shocked. I've worked on tanks that

were 20 years old and never seem so much crud in them (in other cities

and towns).



The decision was to dig out as much of this sludge as possible, and

install the new element until he can afford a new water heater. This

worked for now, but is not the ideal fix. Just for the heck of it, I

phoned a local plumber, and asked him is this is a common problem in

this town. He said that closeto half of his calls are due to water

heaters that are filled with sludge, and need to be replaced. He said

most water heaters last 5 years at most.



My reason for posting this message is because I'm wondering if there is

anything that can be done to filter out this calcium before it gets into

the water heaters? I know little about water softeners, but from what I

do know, they are more intended for hard water, which would be more what

my water is, with the iron in it. Whether they will remove calcium is

something I dont know, particularly when the calcium levels are so high.



Is there anything else that can help this problem? I'm curious !!!



Lastly, I was thinking that when my friend gets a new water heater,

would it be possible to dump the old tank upside down to remove as much

of this sludge as possible from the pipe inlets, then to pour a gallon

of vinegar in the tank. Will the vinegar disolve and thus remove the

calcium? Or maybe a weak acid? It seems wasteful to trash a 3 year old

water heater if this sludge can be removed. Once he gets a new heater,

I'd like to take that old one and experiment to see what can clean it

out. I'm sure that tank could be used for many more years if that

calcium could be removed, and new elements installed.



I also think that the reason the lower element burned out was because of

that calcium coating it. The heat is not being dissipated fast enough

into the water and that sludge is acting like an insulation, which

caused the element to overheat and burn out. This is my opinion anyhow.



Has anyone successfully cleaned out a tank like this?



By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on

the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of

this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.

I'd suggest draining the new water tank every 3 months or so as a preventative measure. I suspect it's not all calcium.

Calcium will react with hydrocloric and muriatic acids. Lowes sells a fairly strong muriatic acid by the gallon if you want to try cleaning the old one. Vinegar is a very weak acid and you would need tons of it to make any progress. Be careful of any fumes.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 8:21:24 AM UTC-4, David L. Martel wrote:
Gunn,



If this fellow has that much calcium in his water it should be really

obvious. There will be calcium buildup on all of his plumbing fixtures and

some of his appliances. It's really hard to believe that an entire town has

this problem but nobody has heard of water softeners.

+1

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:07:11 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 1:38:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:

I live in the country and have a well. My water is hard and has iron,



but tastes good and does not clog pipes. The worst problem is that



orange ring in the toilet that I have to clean every so often. I can



live with that, compared to what is happening in a close by town.







The town has a large deep well that fills two water towers. From there



it's piped to the homes and businesses. Apparently that water is coming



from a source that contains lots of calcium rock. What is happening is



that people in town have to replace their water heaters every few years



because the heaters can and do completely fill with calcium deposits.







A friend in town called me last week to ask why his hot water is only



warm and not hot. I went there and tested the elements in this 3 year



old electric water heater. The lower element was dead. We bought



another element, and I proceeded to shut off the cold water, and



electricity to the tank, then attempt to drain the tank. The water came



out of the drain valve drip by drip. I tried to remove the plastic



valve from the tank, but it would not budge, and I hesitated to try



harder in fear of breaking it off. I suggested we get pails and just



remove the element and catch the water in the pails. This element was



very stubborn to remove, but it finally came out. What I found inside



the tank was shocking. The entire lower element was buried in calcium



sludge, and the electrode part of it. had broken off and remained inside



this sludge in the tank.







I grabbed a long thick screwdriver and began to dig out this sludge,



which eventually allowed to water to exit the tank faster. The water



looked more like milk in color. I asked him several times about the age



of the tank, and he insisted it was 3 years old. He finally went and



got the paperwork for the tank and showed me the receipt which showed it



was actually 3-1/2 years old. I was shocked. I've worked on tanks that



were 20 years old and never seem so much crud in them (in other cities



and towns).







The decision was to dig out as much of this sludge as possible, and



install the new element until he can afford a new water heater. This



worked for now, but is not the ideal fix. Just for the heck of it, I



phoned a local plumber, and asked him is this is a common problem in



this town. He said that closeto half of his calls are due to water



heaters that are filled with sludge, and need to be replaced. He said



most water heaters last 5 years at most.







My reason for posting this message is because I'm wondering if there is



anything that can be done to filter out this calcium before it gets into



the water heaters? I know little about water softeners, but from what I



do know, they are more intended for hard water, which would be more what



my water is, with the iron in it. Whether they will remove calcium is



something I dont know, particularly when the calcium levels are so high..







Is there anything else that can help this problem? I'm curious !!!







Lastly, I was thinking that when my friend gets a new water heater,



would it be possible to dump the old tank upside down to remove as much



of this sludge as possible from the pipe inlets, then to pour a gallon



of vinegar in the tank. Will the vinegar disolve and thus remove the



calcium? Or maybe a weak acid? It seems wasteful to trash a 3 year old



water heater if this sludge can be removed. Once he gets a new heater,



I'd like to take that old one and experiment to see what can clean it



out. I'm sure that tank could be used for many more years if that



calcium could be removed, and new elements installed.







I also think that the reason the lower element burned out was because of



that calcium coating it. The heat is not being dissipated fast enough



into the water and that sludge is acting like an insulation, which



caused the element to overheat and burn out. This is my opinion anyhow..







Has anyone successfully cleaned out a tank like this?







By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on



the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of



this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.



I'd suggest draining the new water tank every 3 months or so as a preventative measure. I suspect it's not all calcium.



Calcium will react with hydrocloric and muriatic acids. Lowes sells a fairly strong muriatic acid by the gallon if you want to try cleaning the old one. Vinegar is a very weak acid and you would need tons of it to make any progress. Be careful of any fumes.

First problem with that is that the acid will also react with the
metal tank. I would assume the tanks have some kind of coating,
eg galvanized?, but if it's anything that reacts with acid, then
you may not have much of a tank left.

Second problem is since the tank is buried in material, how much
acid is it going to take to dissolve it all. Which gets back to
problem #1. A lot of acid for a long time isn't going to be good
for the tank.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:13:52 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:07:11 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 1:38:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:



I live in the country and have a well. My water is hard and has iron,







but tastes good and does not clog pipes. The worst problem is that







orange ring in the toilet that I have to clean every so often. I can







live with that, compared to what is happening in a close by town.















The town has a large deep well that fills two water towers. From there







it's piped to the homes and businesses. Apparently that water is coming







from a source that contains lots of calcium rock. What is happening is







that people in town have to replace their water heaters every few years







because the heaters can and do completely fill with calcium deposits.















A friend in town called me last week to ask why his hot water is only







warm and not hot. I went there and tested the elements in this 3 year







old electric water heater. The lower element was dead. We bought







another element, and I proceeded to shut off the cold water, and







electricity to the tank, then attempt to drain the tank. The water came







out of the drain valve drip by drip. I tried to remove the plastic







valve from the tank, but it would not budge, and I hesitated to try







harder in fear of breaking it off. I suggested we get pails and just







remove the element and catch the water in the pails. This element was







very stubborn to remove, but it finally came out. What I found inside







the tank was shocking. The entire lower element was buried in calcium







sludge, and the electrode part of it. had broken off and remained inside







this sludge in the tank.















I grabbed a long thick screwdriver and began to dig out this sludge,







which eventually allowed to water to exit the tank faster. The water







looked more like milk in color. I asked him several times about the age







of the tank, and he insisted it was 3 years old. He finally went and







got the paperwork for the tank and showed me the receipt which showed it







was actually 3-1/2 years old. I was shocked. I've worked on tanks that







were 20 years old and never seem so much crud in them (in other cities







and towns).















The decision was to dig out as much of this sludge as possible, and







install the new element until he can afford a new water heater. This







worked for now, but is not the ideal fix. Just for the heck of it, I







phoned a local plumber, and asked him is this is a common problem in







this town. He said that closeto half of his calls are due to water







heaters that are filled with sludge, and need to be replaced. He said







most water heaters last 5 years at most.















My reason for posting this message is because I'm wondering if there is







anything that can be done to filter out this calcium before it gets into







the water heaters? I know little about water softeners, but from what I







do know, they are more intended for hard water, which would be more what







my water is, with the iron in it. Whether they will remove calcium is







something I dont know, particularly when the calcium levels are so high.















Is there anything else that can help this problem? I'm curious !!!















Lastly, I was thinking that when my friend gets a new water heater,







would it be possible to dump the old tank upside down to remove as much







of this sludge as possible from the pipe inlets, then to pour a gallon







of vinegar in the tank. Will the vinegar disolve and thus remove the







calcium? Or maybe a weak acid? It seems wasteful to trash a 3 year old







water heater if this sludge can be removed. Once he gets a new heater,







I'd like to take that old one and experiment to see what can clean it







out. I'm sure that tank could be used for many more years if that







calcium could be removed, and new elements installed.















I also think that the reason the lower element burned out was because of







that calcium coating it. The heat is not being dissipated fast enough







into the water and that sludge is acting like an insulation, which







caused the element to overheat and burn out. This is my opinion anyhow.















Has anyone successfully cleaned out a tank like this?















By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on







the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of







this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.







I'd suggest draining the new water tank every 3 months or so as a preventative measure. I suspect it's not all calcium.







Calcium will react with hydrocloric and muriatic acids. Lowes sells a fairly strong muriatic acid by the gallon if you want to try cleaning the old one. Vinegar is a very weak acid and you would need tons of it to make any progress. Be careful of any fumes.



First problem with that is that the acid will also react with the

metal tank. I would assume the tanks have some kind of coating,

eg galvanized?, but if it's anything that reacts with acid, then

you may not have much of a tank left.



Second problem is since the tank is buried in material, how much

acid is it going to take to dissolve it all. Which gets back to

problem #1. A lot of acid for a long time isn't going to be good

for the tank.

The tanks are typically lined with glass. Otherwise they would rust out too quickly. As long as you are careful not to physically damage the glass it's ok to try to clean a tank out. Acid solutions should not harm the glass. Not so sure about the elements but I would probably take those out. I suspect 90% of the accumulation can be broken up and rinsed out with a spray nozzle.

On 10/22/2013 11:07 AM, NotMe wrote:
wrote in message
...

By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on
the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of
this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.


An aside: What's the incident of kidney stones and heart problems?


Be interesting to study. There could easily
be a relationship. All that calcium, probably
good bones and teeth?


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 2:28:06 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/22/2013 11:07 AM, NotMe wrote:

wrote in message

...



By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on

the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of

this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.





An aside: What's the incident of kidney stones and heart problems?





Be interesting to study. There could easily

be a relationship. All that calcium, probably

good bones and teeth?





.

Christopher A. Young

Learn about Jesus

www.lds.org

.

Hard water is very common in many parts of the us. Particularly rural wells. Our well water is fairly hard. I got a water softener off craigs list but still need to re-plumb to hook it up. You don't want to soften the outside faucets and many people leave the kitchen cold tap off as well for drinking water. Water softeners substitute sodium for the calcium and magnesium in hard water. Too much sodium is bad for people with heart issues. How much sodium ends up in the water depends on how much calcium there was to begin with and how effective the water softener is.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:21:31 -0700 (PDT), jamesgang
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 2:28:06 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/22/2013 11:07 AM, NotMe wrote:

wrote in message

...



By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on

the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of

this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.





An aside: What's the incident of kidney stones and heart problems?





Be interesting to study. There could easily

be a relationship. All that calcium, probably

good bones and teeth?





.

Christopher A. Young

Learn about Jesus

www.lds.org

.

Hard water is very common in many parts of the us. Particularly rural wells. Our well water is fairly hard. I got a water softener off craigs list but still need to re-plumb to hook it up. You don't want to soften the outside faucets and many people leave the kitchen cold tap off as well for drinking water. Water softeners substitute sodium for the calcium and magnesium in hard water. Too much sodium is bad for people with heart issues. How much sodium ends up in the water depends on how much calcium there was to begin with and how effective the water softener is.
If tou start with very hard water, the softened water will contain no
more than 13mg of sodium in a large glass of water - still very low
sodium. (assuming your softener is working reasonably well)

wrote in message

Hard water is very common in many parts of the us.
Particularly rural wells. Our well water is fairly
hard. I got a water softener off craigs list but still
need to re-plumb to hook it up. You don't want to
soften the outside faucets and many people leave the
kitchen cold tap off as well for drinking water. Water
softeners substitute sodium for the calcium and
magnesium in hard water. Too much sodium is bad for
people with heart issues. How much sodium ends up in
the water depends on how much calcium there was to
begin with and how effective the water softener is.

If you start with very hard water, the softened water
will contain no more than 13mg of sodium in a large glass
of water - still very low sodium. (assuming your softener
is working reasonably well)

To give that a bit of perspective, a large glass (11.5 oz.) of V8 has 690
mg.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Clare,


If tou start with very hard water, the softened water will contain no
more than 13mg of sodium in a large glass of water - still very low
sodium. (assuming your softener is working reasonably well)

My water is quite hard, 35 Gr/gal. That's about 2270 mg. of Ca in a
gallon. That's about 0.11 moles of Ca. So my water softener will put out
0.22 moles of Na in exchange for the Ca. That's about 2430 mg of Na in a
gallon. Assuming that your large glass of water is a half pint that's about
150 mg.
Where are you getting your 13 mg. figure? Check my math, did I make a
mistake? Why can't the water be harder than you say?

Dave M.

wrote in
:

I live in the country and have a well. My water is hard and has iron,
but tastes good and does not clog pipes. The worst problem is that
orange ring in the toilet that I have to clean every so often. I can
live with that, compared to what is happening in a close by town.

The town has a large deep well that fills two water towers. From
there it's piped to the homes and businesses. Apparently that water
is coming from a source that contains lots of calcium rock. What is
happening is that people in town have to replace their water heaters
every few years because the heaters can and do completely fill with
calcium deposits.

A friend in town called me last week to ask why his hot water is only
warm and not hot. I went there and tested the elements in this 3 year
old electric water heater. The lower element was dead. We bought
another element, and I proceeded to shut off the cold water, and
electricity to the tank, then attempt to drain the tank. The water
came out of the drain valve drip by drip. I tried to remove the
plastic valve from the tank, but it would not budge, and I hesitated
to try harder in fear of breaking it off. I suggested we get pails
and just remove the element and catch the water in the pails. This
element was very stubborn to remove, but it finally came out. What I
found inside the tank was shocking. The entire lower element was
buried in calcium sludge, and the electrode part of it. had broken off
and remained inside this sludge in the tank.

I grabbed a long thick screwdriver and began to dig out this sludge,
which eventually allowed to water to exit the tank faster. The water
looked more like milk in color. I asked him several times about the
age of the tank, and he insisted it was 3 years old. He finally went
and got the paperwork for the tank and showed me the receipt which
showed it was actually 3-1/2 years old. I was shocked. I've worked
on tanks that were 20 years old and never seem so much crud in them
(in other cities and towns).

The decision was to dig out as much of this sludge as possible, and
install the new element until he can afford a new water heater. This
worked for now, but is not the ideal fix. Just for the heck of it, I
phoned a local plumber, and asked him is this is a common problem in
this town. He said that closeto half of his calls are due to water
heaters that are filled with sludge, and need to be replaced. He said
most water heaters last 5 years at most.

My reason for posting this message is because I'm wondering if there
is anything that can be done to filter out this calcium before it gets
into the water heaters? I know little about water softeners, but from
what I do know, they are more intended for hard water, which would be
more what my water is, with the iron in it. Whether they will remove
calcium is something I dont know, particularly when the calcium levels
are so high.

Is there anything else that can help this problem? I'm curious !!!

Lastly, I was thinking that when my friend gets a new water heater,
would it be possible to dump the old tank upside down to remove as
much of this sludge as possible from the pipe inlets, then to pour a
gallon of vinegar in the tank. Will the vinegar disolve and thus
remove the calcium? Or maybe a weak acid? It seems wasteful to trash
a 3 year old water heater if this sludge can be removed. Once he gets
a new heater, I'd like to take that old one and experiment to see what
can clean it out. I'm sure that tank could be used for many more
years if that calcium could be removed, and new elements installed.

I also think that the reason the lower element burned out was because
of that calcium coating it. The heat is not being dissipated fast
enough into the water and that sludge is acting like an insulation,
which caused the element to overheat and burn out. This is my opinion
anyhow.

Has anyone successfully cleaned out a tank like this?

By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on
the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of
this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.




Yep. had the exact same experience like 25 years ago. Had to break the
element to unscrew it. After getting it out I used a rod to break up the
calcium little by little. Duct taped (for real!) a piece of clear hose
that would fit through the element opening to a shop vac hose. Break up
with rod, suck out, break up with rod, suck out. Hours and hours of
this. Ended up with a drywall bucket of the junk. Put new element in.
Ran OK until I moved a few years later.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 19:01:15 -0400, "David L. Martel"
wrote:

Clare,


If tou start with very hard water, the softened water will contain no
more than 13mg of sodium in a large glass of water - still very low
sodium. (assuming your softener is working reasonably well)

My water is quite hard, 35 Gr/gal. That's about 2270 mg. of Ca in a
gallon. That's about 0.11 moles of Ca. So my water softener will put out
0.22 moles of Na in exchange for the Ca. That's about 2430 mg of Na in a
gallon. Assuming that your large glass of water is a half pint that's about
150 mg.
Where are you getting your 13 mg. figure? Check my math, did I make a
mistake? Why can't the water be harder than you say?

Dave M.

The information came from a reference I found on water softener
performance. I believe they were working on a 30 grain hardness as a
basis.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:21:31 -0700 (PDT), jamesgang
wrote:


Hard water is very common in many parts of the us. Particularly rural wells.
Our well water is fairly hard. I got a water softener off craigs list
but still need to re-plumb to hook it up. You don't want to soften the
outside faucets and many people leave the kitchen cold tap off as well
for drinking water. Water softeners substitute sodium for the calcium
and magnesium in hard water. Too much sodium is bad for people with
heart issues. How much sodium ends up in the water depends on how much
calcium there was to begin with and how effective the water softener is.
[end quote]
----

This does not pertain to my original question, since that is in a city.
However, lets say that a person lives in a rural area with a well. They
use a water softener. Generally those same people have a septic tank.
I've seen the large amount of salt that is used for softeners, often
several hundred pounds weekly. All that salt is going into the septic
tank. That would devour a metal septic tank in a short time, and if the
tank is concrete, all that sale must accumulate, and leach out from the
drain field. That must do a lot of damage to the soil and environment
around them.

Even those connected to a city municipal sewer system are dumping large
amounts of salt into the sewer system. Where does it all go? We're not
talking a teaspoon of salt here.......
I once worked for a hospital doing maintenance work, and I was in charge
of filling the brine tanks for that building. Every two weeks we would
dump 10 to 14 bags of salt in them. That's 50lb bags. So, that would
be 500 to 700 lbs of salt every two weeks, or roughly 15,000 lbs per
year, which is 7 to 8 tons of salt each year just from one building.
That's a lot of salt which ends up somewhere down the sewer pipes. If
you ask me, that could result in an eventual environmental disaster....

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 23:56:10 +0000 (UTC), Red Green
wrote:


Yep. had the exact same experience like 25 years ago. Had to break the
element to unscrew it. After getting it out I used a rod to break up the
calcium little by little. Duct taped (for real!) a piece of clear hose
that would fit through the element opening to a shop vac hose. Break up
with rod, suck out, break up with rod, suck out. Hours and hours of
this. Ended up with a drywall bucket of the junk. Put new element in.
Ran OK until I moved a few years later.

That sounds like a good way to remove it. I'll give that a try when
that guy replaces the tank, because I'm sure he will call me to do the
work, and I'll have to "dispose" the old tank.

Thanks!

jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:13:52 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:07:11 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 1:38:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:



I live in the country and have a well. My water is hard and has iron,







but tastes good and does not clog pipes. The worst problem is that







orange ring in the toilet that I have to clean every so often. I can







live with that, compared to what is happening in a close by town.















The town has a large deep well that fills two water towers. From there







it's piped to the homes and businesses. Apparently that water is coming







from a source that contains lots of calcium rock. What is happening is







that people in town have to replace their water heaters every few years







because the heaters can and do completely fill with calcium deposits.















A friend in town called me last week to ask why his hot water is only







warm and not hot. I went there and tested the elements in this 3 year







old electric water heater. The lower element was dead. We bought







another element, and I proceeded to shut off the cold water, and







electricity to the tank, then attempt to drain the tank. The water came







out of the drain valve drip by drip. I tried to remove the plastic







valve from the tank, but it would not budge, and I hesitated to try







harder in fear of breaking it off. I suggested we get pails and just







remove the element and catch the water in the pails. This element was







very stubborn to remove, but it finally came out. What I found inside







the tank was shocking. The entire lower element was buried in calcium







sludge, and the electrode part of it. had broken off and remained inside







this sludge in the tank.















I grabbed a long thick screwdriver and began to dig out this sludge,







which eventually allowed to water to exit the tank faster. The water







looked more like milk in color. I asked him several times about the age







of the tank, and he insisted it was 3 years old. He finally went and







got the paperwork for the tank and showed me the receipt which showed it







was actually 3-1/2 years old. I was shocked. I've worked on tanks that







were 20 years old and never seem so much crud in them (in other cities







and towns).















The decision was to dig out as much of this sludge as possible, and







install the new element until he can afford a new water heater. This







worked for now, but is not the ideal fix. Just for the heck of it, I







phoned a local plumber, and asked him is this is a common problem in







this town. He said that closeto half of his calls are due to water







heaters that are filled with sludge, and need to be replaced. He said







most water heaters last 5 years at most.















My reason for posting this message is because I'm wondering if there is







anything that can be done to filter out this calcium before it gets into







the water heaters? I know little about water softeners, but from what I







do know, they are more intended for hard water, which would be more what







my water is, with the iron in it. Whether they will remove calcium is







something I dont know, particularly when the calcium levels are so high.















Is there anything else that can help this problem? I'm curious !!!















Lastly, I was thinking that when my friend gets a new water heater,







would it be possible to dump the old tank upside down to remove as much







of this sludge as possible from the pipe inlets, then to pour a gallon







of vinegar in the tank. Will the vinegar disolve and thus remove the







calcium? Or maybe a weak acid? It seems wasteful to trash a 3 year old







water heater if this sludge can be removed. Once he gets a new heater,







I'd like to take that old one and experiment to see what can clean it







out. I'm sure that tank could be used for many more years if that







calcium could be removed, and new elements installed.















I also think that the reason the lower element burned out was because of







that calcium coating it. The heat is not being dissipated fast enough







into the water and that sludge is acting like an insulation, which







caused the element to overheat and burn out. This is my opinion anyhow.















Has anyone successfully cleaned out a tank like this?















By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on







the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of







this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.







I'd suggest draining the new water tank every 3 months or so as a preventative measure. I suspect it's not all calcium.







Calcium will react with hydrocloric and muriatic acids. Lowes sells a fairly strong muriatic acid by the gallon if you want to try cleaning the old one. Vinegar is a very weak acid and you would need tons of it to make any progress. Be careful of any fumes.



First problem with that is that the acid will also react with the

metal tank. I would assume the tanks have some kind of coating,

eg galvanized?, but if it's anything that reacts with acid, then

you may not have much of a tank left.



Second problem is since the tank is buried in material, how much

acid is it going to take to dissolve it all. Which gets back to

problem #1. A lot of acid for a long time isn't going to be good

for the tank.

The tanks are typically lined with glass. Otherwise they would rust out too quickly. As long as you are careful not to physically damage the glass it's ok to try to clean a tank out. Acid solutions should not harm the glass. Not so sure about the elements but I would probably take those out. I suspect 90% of the accumulation can be broken up and rinsed out with a spray nozzle.

Hi,
No one there ever has water softener and iron remover??????

"David L. Martel" wrote in message
...
Clare,


If tou start with very hard water, the softened water will contain no
more than 13mg of sodium in a large glass of water - still very low
sodium. (assuming your softener is working reasonably well)

My water is quite hard, 35 Gr/gal. That's about 2270 mg. of Ca in a
gallon. That's about 0.11 moles of Ca. So my water softener will put out
0.22 moles of Na in exchange for the Ca. That's about 2430 mg of Na in a
gallon. Assuming that your large glass of water is a half pint that's
about 150 mg.
Where are you getting your 13 mg. figure? Check my math, did I make a
mistake? Why can't the water be harder than you say?

Dave M.

Calcium bicarbonate is not very soluble in water so even a saturated
solution does not amount to much.
Hence when softened, there is not much sodium bicarbonate.
Whether there is enough to effect you health, there is debate about.

But hard water is good for you to drink and tastes better, no doubt.

wrote in message


This does not pertain to my original question, since that
is in a city. However, lets say that a person lives in a
rural area with a well. They use a water softener.
Generally those same people have a septic tank. I've seen
the large amount of salt that is used for softeners,
often several hundred pounds weekly.

Not for a home. Maybe in a year, not in a week.
________________

All that salt is
going into the septic tank.

No salt goes into the septic tank. Or anywhere else. What winds up in the
water is a carbonate of sodium, not salt.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Gunn,

Hundreds of pounds weekly? I use about 40 lbs every couple of months. I
live alone.
No one I know discharges their recharge brine and rinsings into the
septic system. The discharge line is usually linked with the washing machine
discharge line, which goes to a drainage ditch. I've watched the vegetation
at my discharge site. It's not been affected by 20 yrs of salty discharge.
I'm surprised by this.

Dave M.

Clare,

Well something's wrong. Either I screwed up the math or they screwed up
the math or you misunderstood the site. What's the URL?

Dave M.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 20:00:41 -0700, wrote:

...snip...
This does not pertain to my original question, since that is in a city.
However, lets say that a person lives in a rural area with a well. They
use a water softener. Generally those same people have a septic tank.
..
...snip... to satsify QIOE's requirement of NOT quoting too much.

Even those connected to a city municipal sewer system are dumping large
amounts of salt into the sewer system. Where does it all go? We're not
talking a teaspoon of salt here.......
...snip exellent deail....
That's a lot of salt which ends up somewhere down the sewer pipes. If
you ask me, that could result in an eventual environmental disaster....


We live in rural AZ, well water and 'special' septic system for leach
field into ROCKS

Water so hard leaves little 'white' trails everywhere. House had no
softener, was considering one. But instantly after moving in, the hot
water heater failed. cost $180 for 'emergency' guy to come out, change
heating element [only let him after reeived a 1yr guarranttee], tells me
about how hard water kills everything here and expect a new element every
6 months, or so. Within 4 months new element failed, called to have them
honor warranttee and was told "oh, that comes under the heading of
'electric' parts and is NOT covered, you understand don't you?" NO, so I
vented my spleen a bit, and went after fixing it myself.

The element had burned in two and was discharging electricity through the
water! Called Water Heater Mfgr to obtain new element, or recommend one,
find out no problem hot water heater was still under warrantee, simply
give me the number off the label, only to find out while house was empty
for selling, someone had stolen the label to use elsewhere! Told by mfgr
that that was a common problem, I told them a paper label is a poor way to
control warrantees. Asked them about using water softener and was told BY
THE MANUFACTURER that their heaters are NOT designed for soft water and I
shouldn't do it, unless I just want softer water. Are you sure? they said
it again.

When I removed the failed heating element I found it was simply a standard
heating element from Home Depot, which has its own 1 yr warranttee! that
@$##@ service compnay could have replaced the element. Anyway, I changed
the element and it worked great for 4 months, until....So replaced again.
Lasted about 11 months. Replaced again. This time noticed a bit of
'sludge' in the bottom that did not come out with the flushing. So poured
some muriatic acid in there, sloshed it around, and THEN all of the sludge
came out - clean. Also, found that a longer time cycle on cleaning the
heating element before installation evidently does something to the
metal's surface that now makes the element last longer! It's been over 14
months on this last one. Must have 'pickled' the surface, or something.

Water softener? I don't like the feel of soft water, but thought would
help plumbing. So considered it. Neighbour has WS and his leach field has
a huge chalky white area on the surface! and very little plant life, even
in AZ! and his has been running for only one year before we moved in.
After we have lived over two years, with no WS we have no discernment of
where the leach field is, except the floral is a bit greener, taller, and
more lush there.

So all in all, it came down to change the element myself [whenever
necessary, keep a spare], and no WS. Saving $300 installation charge goes
a long way to buy all those elements.

I agree with you about the potential environmental impact of WS. For one
person it's probably great, but if everybody had one?

Plus, a commercial reverse osmosis has more pressure, so runs much more
efficiently than a residential RO system.

On 10/23/2013 10:07 AM, RobertMacy wrote:

We live in rural AZ, well water and 'special' septic system for leach
field into ROCKS

Water so hard leaves little 'white' trails everywhere. House had no
softener, was considering one. But instantly after moving in, the hot
water heater failed. cost $180 for 'emergency' guy to come out, change
heating element [only let him after reeived a 1yr guarranttee], tells me
about how hard water kills everything here and expect a new element
every 6 months, or so. Within 4 months new element failed, called to
have them honor warranttee and was told "oh, that comes under the
heading of 'electric' parts and is NOT covered, you understand don't
you?" NO, so I vented my spleen a bit, and went after fixing it myself.


So all in all, it came down to change the element myself [whenever
necessary, keep a spare], and no WS. Saving $300 installation charge
goes a long way to buy all those elements.


Years ago, I'd seen "low wattage density" elements. The
tube goes out, back, out, back. So the surface of the
tube doesn't get as hot. Worth a look, see if they still
are sold.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:00:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:21:31 -0700 (PDT), jamesgang






Hard water is very common in many parts of the us. Particularly rural wells.

Our well water is fairly hard. I got a water softener off craigs list

but still need to re-plumb to hook it up. You don't want to soften the

outside faucets and many people leave the kitchen cold tap off as well

for drinking water. Water softeners substitute sodium for the calcium

and magnesium in hard water. Too much sodium is bad for people with

heart issues. How much sodium ends up in the water depends on how much

calcium there was to begin with and how effective the water softener is.

[end quote]

----



This does not pertain to my original question, since that is in a city.

However, lets say that a person lives in a rural area with a well. They

use a water softener. Generally those same people have a septic tank.

I've seen the large amount of salt that is used for softeners, often

several hundred pounds weekly. All that salt is going into the septic

tank. That would devour a metal septic tank in a short time, and if the

tank is concrete, all that sale must accumulate, and leach out from the

drain field. That must do a lot of damage to the soil and environment

around them.



Even those connected to a city municipal sewer system are dumping large

amounts of salt into the sewer system. Where does it all go? We're not

talking a teaspoon of salt here.......

I once worked for a hospital doing maintenance work, and I was in charge

of filling the brine tanks for that building. Every two weeks we would

dump 10 to 14 bags of salt in them. That's 50lb bags. So, that would

be 500 to 700 lbs of salt every two weeks, or roughly 15,000 lbs per

year, which is 7 to 8 tons of salt each year just from one building.

That's a lot of salt which ends up somewhere down the sewer pipes. If

you ask me, that could result in an eventual environmental disaster....

First no one is using 500lbs of salt every two weeks. Second, don't run the regenerate drain into the septic system. Simple. The world is full of salt, I don't think it's going to become an environmental disaster.

In article ,
David L. Martel wrote:
Gunn,

Hundreds of pounds weekly? I use about 40 lbs every couple of months. I
live alone.
No one I know discharges their recharge brine and rinsings into the
septic system. The discharge line is usually linked with the washing machine
discharge line, which goes to a drainage ditch. I've watched the vegetation
at my discharge site. It's not been affected by 20 yrs of salty discharge.
I'm surprised by this.


When we bought our house, it had a septic tank. The washing machine
discharged into a sump in the basement, and the greywater was pumped
up and out into the septic tank. We'd catch hell for discharging
it into a drainage ditch, which would run untreated into the Great
Lakes via the Huron River. Plus, I'd be afraid that the line would
freeze in the winter.

We added a softener. For the year that I had a septic tank and
a water softener, I discharged my recharge brine into a sump shared
by the washing machine. Granted, a year isn't very long.

(Then we decided that the well was too much bother; it was
sulfurous. We hooked up to municipal water and sewer. It was
expensive to do, and the ongoing bills make me grit my teeth
every time I pay them, but we consider it well worth it. But I
digress.)

Cindy Hamilton
--

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
On 10/22/2013 11:07 AM, NotMe wrote:
wrote in message
...

By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on
the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of
this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.


An aside: What's the incident of kidney stones and heart problems?


Be interesting to study. There could easily
be a relationship. All that calcium, probably
good bones and teeth?


Just moved from an area with a LOT of calcium in the water averaged 2 kidney
stone a year for all the time there. Now in an area without excessive
calcium. Except for one the first year we moved no new stones in 5 + years.

I should note that not all kidney stones are formed from calcium.

I agree with everyone that said calcium is controlled by a water
softener. I would think of calcium compound buildup is that fast it
would be a problem in pipes, including the water system pipes.

There are fixes for iron in the water. This has a lot of information:
http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/e...lity/iron.html

Years ago, I'd seen "low wattage density" elements. The

tube goes out, back, out, back. So the surface of the

tube doesn't get as hot. Worth a look, see if they still

are sold.


and set the water heater to the lowest temp that you can still use for a shower.

Mark

"bud--" wrote in message
eb.com...
I agree with everyone that said calcium is controlled by a water softener.
I would think of calcium compound buildup is that fast it would be a
problem in pipes, including the water system pipes.

There are fixes for iron in the water. This has a lot of information:
http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/e...lity/iron.html

Gentlemen do not get confuse between calcium and silica that we see on the
pipes faucet deposit 90%
of time it is silica which is very hard to get ready of. Take sample of you
water to lab and get it analyzed.

On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 1:20:53 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
I agree with everyone that said calcium is controlled by a water

softener. I would think of calcium compound buildup is that fast it

would be a problem in pipes, including the water system pipes.


And toilet flush valves. I'd think they'd stop working about every six months.

sounds like, in addition to other ideas, your friend ought to replace the drain valve on his new WH before it is installed with a ball valve. shopping list:

3/4" pipe nipple, to fit
3/4" threaded ball valve
3/4" MPT to GHT brass adapter
brass GHT cap (so if someone kicks the valve lever you don't have a basement gusher)
pipe dope or tape

then flush out the tank periodically... standard recommendation is every year but if it's gunking up that bad might want to do it more often. Turn off breaker before doing so so as not to burn out elements (or turn off pilot on gas so as not to stress tank heating it dry)

with a ball valve you'll get much more flow than a boiler drain so hopefully that will carry more sediment out, and in any case won't stick/fail/need replacement for the life of the WWH

To make it more convenient to flush regularly, leaving a dedicated garden hose next to WH long enough to reach laundry sink is a good idea, can be length of an old patched outdoor one, you're only going to use it every now and then anyway.

I've seen recommendations for a curved end dip tubes to help keep sediment from accumulating; I don't know if those help or not. Makes sense in theory though.

good luck,

nate
nate

On Fri, 25 Oct 2013 05:37:40 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 1:20:53 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
I agree with everyone that said calcium is controlled by a water

softener. I would think of calcium compound buildup is that fast it

would be a problem in pipes, including the water system pipes.


And toilet flush valves. I'd think they'd stop working about every six months.
In some places, some do. I know a few that never make it past about
18 months.

wrote:
On Fri, 25 Oct 2013 05:37:40 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 1:20:53 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
I agree with everyone that said calcium is controlled by a water

softener. I would think of calcium compound buildup is that fast it

would be a problem in pipes, including the water system pipes.


And toilet flush valves. I'd think they'd stop working about every six months.
In some places, some do. I know a few that never make it past about
18 months.

Hi,
I wonder if Ca, Organic Fe level is so high in the water, do folks there
drink it daily? Won't it cause health issues for some? Scary.........
There are softeners which don't use salt out there. My friend had new
house just built outside city limit. His water treatment set up cost
50K grand I heard.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 00:38:17 -0500, wrote:

I live in the country and have a well. My water is hard and has iron,
but tastes good and does not clog pipes. The worst problem is that
orange ring in the toilet that I have to clean every so often. I can
live with that, compared to what is happening in a close by town.

The town has a large deep well that fills two water towers. From there
it's piped to the homes and businesses. Apparently that water is coming
from a source that contains lots of calcium rock. What is happening is
that people in town have to replace their water heaters every few years
because the heaters can and do completely fill with calcium deposits.

A friend in town called me last week to ask why his hot water is only
warm and not hot. I went there and tested the elements in this 3 year
old electric water heater. The lower element was dead. We bought
another element, and I proceeded to shut off the cold water, and
electricity to the tank, then attempt to drain the tank. The water came
out of the drain valve drip by drip. I tried to remove the plastic
valve from the tank, but it would not budge, and I hesitated to try
harder in fear of breaking it off. I suggested we get pails and just
remove the element and catch the water in the pails. This element was
very stubborn to remove, but it finally came out. What I found inside
the tank was shocking. The entire lower element was buried in calcium
sludge, and the electrode part of it. had broken off and remained inside
this sludge in the tank.

I grabbed a long thick screwdriver and began to dig out this sludge,
which eventually allowed to water to exit the tank faster. The water
looked more like milk in color. I asked him several times about the age
of the tank, and he insisted it was 3 years old. He finally went and
got the paperwork for the tank and showed me the receipt which showed it
was actually 3-1/2 years old. I was shocked. I've worked on tanks that
were 20 years old and never seem so much crud in them (in other cities
and towns).

The decision was to dig out as much of this sludge as possible, and
install the new element until he can afford a new water heater. This
worked for now, but is not the ideal fix. Just for the heck of it, I
phoned a local plumber, and asked him is this is a common problem in
this town. He said that closeto half of his calls are due to water
heaters that are filled with sludge, and need to be replaced. He said
most water heaters last 5 years at most.

My reason for posting this message is because I'm wondering if there is
anything that can be done to filter out this calcium before it gets into
the water heaters? I know little about water softeners, but from what I
do know, they are more intended for hard water, which would be more what
my water is, with the iron in it. Whether they will remove calcium is
something I dont know, particularly when the calcium levels are so high.

Is there anything else that can help this problem? I'm curious !!!

Lastly, I was thinking that when my friend gets a new water heater,
would it be possible to dump the old tank upside down to remove as much
of this sludge as possible from the pipe inlets, then to pour a gallon
of vinegar in the tank. Will the vinegar disolve and thus remove the
calcium? Or maybe a weak acid? It seems wasteful to trash a 3 year old
water heater if this sludge can be removed. Once he gets a new heater,
I'd like to take that old one and experiment to see what can clean it
out. I'm sure that tank could be used for many more years if that
calcium could be removed, and new elements installed.

I also think that the reason the lower element burned out was because of
that calcium coating it. The heat is not being dissipated fast enough
into the water and that sludge is acting like an insulation, which
caused the element to overheat and burn out. This is my opinion anyhow.

Has anyone successfully cleaned out a tank like this?

By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on
the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of
this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.


I used to have this problem with both gas and electric water heaters.
Then I started turning the temperature down to no more then 120. That
eliminated most of the problem, instead of them burning up/clogging up
in 3 years they last 8 to 15 years. It helps if you have a dishwasher
that can heat the water cuz 120 isn't really hot enough to do a good
job cleaning dishes. 120 is plenty hot enough for showers and
laundry.

On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 18:20:59 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 00:38:17 -0500, wrote:

I live in the country and have a well. My water is hard and has iron,
but tastes good and does not clog pipes. The worst problem is that
orange ring in the toilet that I have to clean every so often. I can
live with that, compared to what is happening in a close by town.

The town has a large deep well that fills two water towers. From there
it's piped to the homes and businesses. Apparently that water is coming
from a source that contains lots of calcium rock. What is happening is
that people in town have to replace their water heaters every few years
because the heaters can and do completely fill with calcium deposits.

A friend in town called me last week to ask why his hot water is only
warm and not hot. I went there and tested the elements in this 3 year
old electric water heater. The lower element was dead. We bought
another element, and I proceeded to shut off the cold water, and
electricity to the tank, then attempt to drain the tank. The water came
out of the drain valve drip by drip. I tried to remove the plastic
valve from the tank, but it would not budge, and I hesitated to try
harder in fear of breaking it off. I suggested we get pails and just
remove the element and catch the water in the pails. This element was
very stubborn to remove, but it finally came out. What I found inside
the tank was shocking. The entire lower element was buried in calcium
sludge, and the electrode part of it. had broken off and remained inside
this sludge in the tank.

I grabbed a long thick screwdriver and began to dig out this sludge,
which eventually allowed to water to exit the tank faster. The water
looked more like milk in color. I asked him several times about the age
of the tank, and he insisted it was 3 years old. He finally went and
got the paperwork for the tank and showed me the receipt which showed it
was actually 3-1/2 years old. I was shocked. I've worked on tanks that
were 20 years old and never seem so much crud in them (in other cities
and towns).

The decision was to dig out as much of this sludge as possible, and
install the new element until he can afford a new water heater. This
worked for now, but is not the ideal fix. Just for the heck of it, I
phoned a local plumber, and asked him is this is a common problem in
this town. He said that closeto half of his calls are due to water
heaters that are filled with sludge, and need to be replaced. He said
most water heaters last 5 years at most.

My reason for posting this message is because I'm wondering if there is
anything that can be done to filter out this calcium before it gets into
the water heaters? I know little about water softeners, but from what I
do know, they are more intended for hard water, which would be more what
my water is, with the iron in it. Whether they will remove calcium is
something I dont know, particularly when the calcium levels are so high.

Is there anything else that can help this problem? I'm curious !!!

Lastly, I was thinking that when my friend gets a new water heater,
would it be possible to dump the old tank upside down to remove as much
of this sludge as possible from the pipe inlets, then to pour a gallon
of vinegar in the tank. Will the vinegar disolve and thus remove the
calcium? Or maybe a weak acid? It seems wasteful to trash a 3 year old
water heater if this sludge can be removed. Once he gets a new heater,
I'd like to take that old one and experiment to see what can clean it
out. I'm sure that tank could be used for many more years if that
calcium could be removed, and new elements installed.

I also think that the reason the lower element burned out was because of
that calcium coating it. The heat is not being dissipated fast enough
into the water and that sludge is acting like an insulation, which
caused the element to overheat and burn out. This is my opinion anyhow.

Has anyone successfully cleaned out a tank like this?

By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on
the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of
this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.


I used to have this problem with both gas and electric water heaters.
Then I started turning the temperature down to no more then 120. That
eliminated most of the problem, instead of them burning up/clogging up
in 3 years they last 8 to 15 years. It helps if you have a dishwasher
that can heat the water cuz 120 isn't really hot enough to do a good
job cleaning dishes. 120 is plenty hot enough for showers and
laundry.

....and plenty cold enough for some really nasty bacteria to grow. Your
life.

On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 22:15:17 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 18:20:59 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 00:38:17 -0500, wrote:

I live in the country and have a well. My water is hard and has iron,
but tastes good and does not clog pipes. The worst problem is that
orange ring in the toilet that I have to clean every so often. I can
live with that, compared to what is happening in a close by town.

The town has a large deep well that fills two water towers. From there
it's piped to the homes and businesses. Apparently that water is coming
from a source that contains lots of calcium rock. What is happening is
that people in town have to replace their water heaters every few years
because the heaters can and do completely fill with calcium deposits.

A friend in town called me last week to ask why his hot water is only
warm and not hot. I went there and tested the elements in this 3 year
old electric water heater. The lower element was dead. We bought
another element, and I proceeded to shut off the cold water, and
electricity to the tank, then attempt to drain the tank. The water came
out of the drain valve drip by drip. I tried to remove the plastic
valve from the tank, but it would not budge, and I hesitated to try
harder in fear of breaking it off. I suggested we get pails and just
remove the element and catch the water in the pails. This element was
very stubborn to remove, but it finally came out. What I found inside
the tank was shocking. The entire lower element was buried in calcium
sludge, and the electrode part of it. had broken off and remained inside
this sludge in the tank.

I grabbed a long thick screwdriver and began to dig out this sludge,
which eventually allowed to water to exit the tank faster. The water
looked more like milk in color. I asked him several times about the age
of the tank, and he insisted it was 3 years old. He finally went and
got the paperwork for the tank and showed me the receipt which showed it
was actually 3-1/2 years old. I was shocked. I've worked on tanks that
were 20 years old and never seem so much crud in them (in other cities
and towns).

The decision was to dig out as much of this sludge as possible, and
install the new element until he can afford a new water heater. This
worked for now, but is not the ideal fix. Just for the heck of it, I
phoned a local plumber, and asked him is this is a common problem in
this town. He said that closeto half of his calls are due to water
heaters that are filled with sludge, and need to be replaced. He said
most water heaters last 5 years at most.

My reason for posting this message is because I'm wondering if there is
anything that can be done to filter out this calcium before it gets into
the water heaters? I know little about water softeners, but from what I
do know, they are more intended for hard water, which would be more what
my water is, with the iron in it. Whether they will remove calcium is
something I dont know, particularly when the calcium levels are so high.

Is there anything else that can help this problem? I'm curious !!!

Lastly, I was thinking that when my friend gets a new water heater,
would it be possible to dump the old tank upside down to remove as much
of this sludge as possible from the pipe inlets, then to pour a gallon
of vinegar in the tank. Will the vinegar disolve and thus remove the
calcium? Or maybe a weak acid? It seems wasteful to trash a 3 year old
water heater if this sludge can be removed. Once he gets a new heater,
I'd like to take that old one and experiment to see what can clean it
out. I'm sure that tank could be used for many more years if that
calcium could be removed, and new elements installed.

I also think that the reason the lower element burned out was because of
that calcium coating it. The heat is not being dissipated fast enough
into the water and that sludge is acting like an insulation, which
caused the element to overheat and burn out. This is my opinion anyhow.

Has anyone successfully cleaned out a tank like this?

By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on
the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of
this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.


I used to have this problem with both gas and electric water heaters.
Then I started turning the temperature down to no more then 120. That
eliminated most of the problem, instead of them burning up/clogging up
in 3 years they last 8 to 15 years. It helps if you have a dishwasher
that can heat the water cuz 120 isn't really hot enough to do a good
job cleaning dishes. 120 is plenty hot enough for showers and
laundry.

...and plenty cold enough for some really nasty bacteria to grow. Your
life.

Yeah, I've heard that claim yet in 20+ years I've had not a single
problem. Oh, and I don't drink my hot water.