I thought I'd share this with anyone interested. I just found
out that the new LED recessed lights solve serious problems that
exist with recessed lights, depending on where they are installed.
Case in point, I have 9 of them in a cathedral ceiling. With
conventional lights, that isn't good. First, the area around
the lights typically has no insulation, so there is heat loss.
Second, with a metal fixture, it gets cold, transferring the cold
to the trim. That causes condensation in the winter. I have
paint peeling around the lights. In the past, I've repainted
and it's OK for a few years, but then returns. Besides the heat
loss due to no insulation, there is also significant air leakage
because most of these are not even close to being air tight.

So, I just discovered that LED retrofit kits exist that solve
all this. They come in 4, 5, 6 inch versions and consist of
an adaptor on a length of wire that screws into the existing
socket. Then the new LED light gets pressed into the existing
fixture. It solves the above problems. They are available in
depths under 4", so there is still space for 3 or 4 inches of
insulation above it. Second, they are inherently mostly airtight.
Some pass an ASTM standard that says they are in fact airtight.
But even the ones that don't say they meet the std, sure look
airtight to me, especially if you put a little caulk under the
trim before shoving it in. They are almost all made of plastic
too, so transfer of cold will be limited.

They generally run about $35, but there are ones that cost more
than 2X that. Lowes has a Utilitech one that is 5 or 6", 700 lumens,
equiv to about a 65W, for $25. So, if you have recessed lights
in a cathedral ceiling or going into an attic space, they are
definitely worth considering.

On 8/9/2013 11:10 AM, wrote:
I thought I'd share this with anyone interested. I just found
out that the new LED recessed lights solve serious problems that
exist with recessed lights, depending on where they are installed.
Case in point, I have 9 of them in a cathedral ceiling. With
conventional lights, that isn't good. First, the area around
the lights typically has no insulation, so there is heat loss.
Second, with a metal fixture, it gets cold, transferring the cold
to the trim. That causes condensation in the winter. I have
paint peeling around the lights. In the past, I've repainted
and it's OK for a few years, but then returns. Besides the heat
loss due to no insulation, there is also significant air leakage
because most of these are not even close to being air tight.

So, I just discovered that LED retrofit kits exist that solve
all this. They come in 4, 5, 6 inch versions and consist of
an adaptor on a length of wire that screws into the existing
socket. Then the new LED light gets pressed into the existing
fixture. It solves the above problems. They are available in
depths under 4", so there is still space for 3 or 4 inches of
insulation above it. Second, they are inherently mostly airtight.
Some pass an ASTM standard that says they are in fact airtight.
But even the ones that don't say they meet the std, sure look
airtight to me, especially if you put a little caulk under the
trim before shoving it in. They are almost all made of plastic
too, so transfer of cold will be limited.

They generally run about $35, but there are ones that cost more
than 2X that. Lowes has a Utilitech one that is 5 or 6", 700 lumens,
equiv to about a 65W, for $25. So, if you have recessed lights
in a cathedral ceiling or going into an attic space, they are
definitely worth considering.


The new LED lights are not your daddy's LED lights. I have a 12watt bulb
replacement in my desk lamp sitting atop my workstation and I'm
very satisfied with the light. I bought it earlier this year at Home
Depot and I'm sure it's already obsolete. I was in college when an LED
was a dim little indicator that only put out red light. ^_^

TDD

wrote in message
...
I thought I'd share this with anyone interested. I just found
out that the new LED recessed lights solve serious problems that
exist with recessed lights, depending on where they are installed.
Case in point, I have 9 of them in a cathedral ceiling. With
conventional lights, that isn't good. First, the area around
the lights typically has no insulation, so there is heat loss.
Second, with a metal fixture, it gets cold, transferring the cold
to the trim. That causes condensation in the winter. I have
paint peeling around the lights. In the past, I've repainted
and it's OK for a few years, but then returns. Besides the heat
loss due to no insulation, there is also significant air leakage
because most of these are not even close to being air tight.

So, I just discovered that LED retrofit kits exist that solve
all this. They come in 4, 5, 6 inch versions and consist of
an adaptor on a length of wire that screws into the existing
socket. Then the new LED light gets pressed into the existing
fixture. It solves the above problems. They are available in
depths under 4", so there is still space for 3 or 4 inches of
insulation above it. Second, they are inherently mostly airtight.
Some pass an ASTM standard that says they are in fact airtight.
But even the ones that don't say they meet the std, sure look
airtight to me, especially if you put a little caulk under the
trim before shoving it in. They are almost all made of plastic
too, so transfer of cold will be limited.

They generally run about $35, but there are ones that cost more
than 2X that. Lowes has a Utilitech one that is 5 or 6", 700 lumens,
equiv to about a 65W, for $25. So, if you have recessed lights
in a cathedral ceiling or going into an attic space, they are
definitely worth considering.

The LED downlights are one of several lighting products now where LEDs do
work well, can provide the proper amount and quality of light for a
reasonable price. The Lighting for Tomorrow Lighting Fixture Design
Competition has been judging LED downlights and retrofit kits for several
years now, so take a look at their winning products and the associated
specifications at http://www.lightingfortomorrow.com/ to see what's out
there. One of the 2012 downlight winners had an adjustable gimbal so it
could be used as either a downlight or a wall light.

Tomsic

On 8/9/2013 12:10 PM, wrote:
I thought I'd share this with anyone interested. I just found
out that the new LED recessed lights solve serious problems that
exist with recessed lights, depending on where they are installed.
Case in point, I have 9 of them in a cathedral ceiling. With
conventional lights, that isn't good. First, the area around
the lights typically has no insulation, so there is heat loss.
Second, with a metal fixture, it gets cold, transferring the cold
to the trim. That causes condensation in the winter. I have
paint peeling around the lights. In the past, I've repainted
and it's OK for a few years, but then returns. Besides the heat
loss due to no insulation, there is also significant air leakage
because most of these are not even close to being air tight.

So, I just discovered that LED retrofit kits exist that solve
all this. They come in 4, 5, 6 inch versions and consist of
an adaptor on a length of wire that screws into the existing
socket. Then the new LED light gets pressed into the existing
fixture. It solves the above problems. They are available in
depths under 4", so there is still space for 3 or 4 inches of
insulation above it. Second, they are inherently mostly airtight.
Some pass an ASTM standard that says they are in fact airtight.
But even the ones that don't say they meet the std, sure look
airtight to me, especially if you put a little caulk under the
trim before shoving it in. They are almost all made of plastic
too, so transfer of cold will be limited.

They generally run about $35, but there are ones that cost more
than 2X that. Lowes has a Utilitech one that is 5 or 6", 700 lumens,
equiv to about a 65W, for $25. So, if you have recessed lights
in a cathedral ceiling or going into an attic space, they are
definitely worth considering.


Just pay attention to the color temperature and CRI of the new LEDs that
you put in. Cree CR6 is one choice with a high CRI and a low color temp
(former is indisputably good; latter is a matter of preference. But I
cannot see anyone wanting a light much over 4500K anywhere in a
residence... above that is getting into "HID headlamp" territory.)

nate

On 8/9/2013 1:00 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 8/9/2013 11:10 AM, wrote:
I thought I'd share this with anyone interested. I just found
out that the new LED recessed lights solve serious problems that
exist with recessed lights, depending on where they are installed.
Case in point, I have 9 of them in a cathedral ceiling. With
conventional lights, that isn't good. First, the area around
the lights typically has no insulation, so there is heat loss.
Second, with a metal fixture, it gets cold, transferring the cold
to the trim. That causes condensation in the winter. I have
paint peeling around the lights. In the past, I've repainted
and it's OK for a few years, but then returns. Besides the heat
loss due to no insulation, there is also significant air leakage
because most of these are not even close to being air tight.

So, I just discovered that LED retrofit kits exist that solve
all this. They come in 4, 5, 6 inch versions and consist of
an adaptor on a length of wire that screws into the existing
socket. Then the new LED light gets pressed into the existing
fixture. It solves the above problems. They are available in
depths under 4", so there is still space for 3 or 4 inches of
insulation above it. Second, they are inherently mostly airtight.
Some pass an ASTM standard that says they are in fact airtight.
But even the ones that don't say they meet the std, sure look
airtight to me, especially if you put a little caulk under the
trim before shoving it in. They are almost all made of plastic
too, so transfer of cold will be limited.

They generally run about $35, but there are ones that cost more
than 2X that. Lowes has a Utilitech one that is 5 or 6", 700 lumens,
equiv to about a 65W, for $25. So, if you have recessed lights
in a cathedral ceiling or going into an attic space, they are
definitely worth considering.


The new LED lights are not your daddy's LED lights. I have a 12watt bulb
replacement in my desk lamp sitting atop my workstation and I'm
very satisfied with the light. I bought it earlier this year at Home
Depot and I'm sure it's already obsolete. I was in college when an LED
was a dim little indicator that only put out red light. ^_^

TDD

Hah... I remember VW using LEDs for idiot lights on the A1 and A2
chassis cars. But blue LEDs hadn't been invented yet so the high beam
indicator was a little blue painted grain of wheat incandescent bulb.

I also remember seeing my first blue LED in the flesh. Ooooooh.

And yes, new LEDs are great. Unfortunately the nicest I've tried has
already been discontinued - the Philips L-Prize. I haven't tried any of
the can lights though, and the specs on those look better than any of
the "bulbs".

nate

Welcome to 2008!

Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org


wrote in message
...
I thought I'd share this with anyone interested. I just found
out that the new LED recessed lights solve serious problems that
exist with recessed lights, depending on where they are installed.
Case in point, I have 9 of them in a cathedral ceiling. With
conventional lights, that isn't good. First, the area around
the lights typically has no insulation, so there is heat loss.
Second, with a metal fixture, it gets cold, transferring the cold
to the trim. That causes condensation in the winter. I have
paint peeling around the lights. In the past, I've repainted
and it's OK for a few years, but then returns. Besides the heat
loss due to no insulation, there is also significant air leakage
because most of these are not even close to being air tight.

So, I just discovered that LED retrofit kits exist that solve
all this. They come in 4, 5, 6 inch versions and consist of
an adaptor on a length of wire that screws into the existing
socket. Then the new LED light gets pressed into the existing
fixture. It solves the above problems. They are available in
depths under 4", so there is still space for 3 or 4 inches of
insulation above it. Second, they are inherently mostly airtight.
Some pass an ASTM standard that says they are in fact airtight.
But even the ones that don't say they meet the std, sure look
airtight to me, especially if you put a little caulk under the
trim before shoving it in. They are almost all made of plastic
too, so transfer of cold will be limited.

They generally run about $35, but there are ones that cost more
than 2X that. Lowes has a Utilitech one that is 5 or 6", 700 lumens,
equiv to about a 65W, for $25. So, if you have recessed lights
in a cathedral ceiling or going into an attic space, they are
definitely worth considering.

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
On 8/9/2013 1:00 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 8/9/2013 11:10 AM, wrote:
I thought I'd share this with anyone interested. I just found
out that the new LED recessed lights solve serious problems that
exist with recessed lights, depending on where they are installed.
Case in point, I have 9 of them in a cathedral ceiling. With
conventional lights, that isn't good. First, the area around
the lights typically has no insulation, so there is heat loss.
Second, with a metal fixture, it gets cold, transferring the cold
to the trim. That causes condensation in the winter. I have
paint peeling around the lights. In the past, I've repainted
and it's OK for a few years, but then returns. Besides the heat
loss due to no insulation, there is also significant air leakage
because most of these are not even close to being air tight.

So, I just discovered that LED retrofit kits exist that solve
all this. They come in 4, 5, 6 inch versions and consist of
an adaptor on a length of wire that screws into the existing
socket. Then the new LED light gets pressed into the existing
fixture. It solves the above problems. They are available in
depths under 4", so there is still space for 3 or 4 inches of
insulation above it. Second, they are inherently mostly airtight.
Some pass an ASTM standard that says they are in fact airtight.
But even the ones that don't say they meet the std, sure look
airtight to me, especially if you put a little caulk under the
trim before shoving it in. They are almost all made of plastic
too, so transfer of cold will be limited.

They generally run about $35, but there are ones that cost more
than 2X that. Lowes has a Utilitech one that is 5 or 6", 700 lumens,
equiv to about a 65W, for $25. So, if you have recessed lights
in a cathedral ceiling or going into an attic space, they are
definitely worth considering.


The new LED lights are not your daddy's LED lights. I have a 12watt bulb
replacement in my desk lamp sitting atop my workstation and I'm
very satisfied with the light. I bought it earlier this year at Home
Depot and I'm sure it's already obsolete. I was in college when an LED
was a dim little indicator that only put out red light. ^_^

TDD

Hah... I remember VW using LEDs for idiot lights on the A1 and A2 chassis
cars. But blue LEDs hadn't been invented yet so the high beam indicator
was a little blue painted grain of wheat incandescent bulb.

I also remember seeing my first blue LED in the flesh. Ooooooh.

And yes, new LEDs are great. Unfortunately the nicest I've tried has
already been discontinued - the Philips L-Prize. I haven't tried any of
the can lights though, and the specs on those look better than any of the
"bulbs".

nate

The screw-in LED bulbs incorporate some of the best LED engineering around
because getting rid of the heat becomes especially hard when the LED bulb
design is restricted to the size and shape of a standard light bulb.

I'm disappointed that Philips didn't put their marketing (and pricing)
strengths behind the L-Prize lamp. It has great performance specs,
particularly color, and the DOE life tests (200 samples) are now at more
than 25,000 hours with no failures, no drop in light output and no
significant change in color.

Tomsic

On 8/9/2013 5:44 PM, Tomsic wrote:

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
On 8/9/2013 1:00 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 8/9/2013 11:10 AM, wrote:
I thought I'd share this with anyone interested. I just found
out that the new LED recessed lights solve serious problems that
exist with recessed lights, depending on where they are installed.
Case in point, I have 9 of them in a cathedral ceiling. With
conventional lights, that isn't good. First, the area around
the lights typically has no insulation, so there is heat loss.
Second, with a metal fixture, it gets cold, transferring the cold
to the trim. That causes condensation in the winter. I have
paint peeling around the lights. In the past, I've repainted
and it's OK for a few years, but then returns. Besides the heat
loss due to no insulation, there is also significant air leakage
because most of these are not even close to being air tight.

So, I just discovered that LED retrofit kits exist that solve
all this. They come in 4, 5, 6 inch versions and consist of
an adaptor on a length of wire that screws into the existing
socket. Then the new LED light gets pressed into the existing
fixture. It solves the above problems. They are available in
depths under 4", so there is still space for 3 or 4 inches of
insulation above it. Second, they are inherently mostly airtight.
Some pass an ASTM standard that says they are in fact airtight.
But even the ones that don't say they meet the std, sure look
airtight to me, especially if you put a little caulk under the
trim before shoving it in. They are almost all made of plastic
too, so transfer of cold will be limited.

They generally run about $35, but there are ones that cost more
than 2X that. Lowes has a Utilitech one that is 5 or 6", 700 lumens,
equiv to about a 65W, for $25. So, if you have recessed lights
in a cathedral ceiling or going into an attic space, they are
definitely worth considering.


The new LED lights are not your daddy's LED lights. I have a 12watt bulb
replacement in my desk lamp sitting atop my workstation and I'm
very satisfied with the light. I bought it earlier this year at Home
Depot and I'm sure it's already obsolete. I was in college when an LED
was a dim little indicator that only put out red light. ^_^

TDD

Hah... I remember VW using LEDs for idiot lights on the A1 and A2 chassis
cars. But blue LEDs hadn't been invented yet so the high beam indicator
was a little blue painted grain of wheat incandescent bulb.

I also remember seeing my first blue LED in the flesh. Ooooooh.

And yes, new LEDs are great. Unfortunately the nicest I've tried has
already been discontinued - the Philips L-Prize. I haven't tried any of
the can lights though, and the specs on those look better than any of the
"bulbs".

nate

The screw-in LED bulbs incorporate some of the best LED engineering around
because getting rid of the heat becomes especially hard when the LED bulb
design is restricted to the size and shape of a standard light bulb.

I'm disappointed that Philips didn't put their marketing (and pricing)
strengths behind the L-Prize lamp. It has great performance specs,
particularly color, and the DOE life tests (200 samples) are now at more
than 25,000 hours with no failures, no drop in light output and no
significant change in color.

Tomsic



it was available in Home Depot stores for $15 in subsidized areas for a
couple months. Unfortunately I found out about this shortly before they
disappeared. I bought six, the really frustrating thing is I seem to
have lost the two that I didn't install into light fixtures immediately!

I've found only two possible drawbacks to them

1) some may not like the sub-3000K color temp, but that was part of the
L-prize requirements, so don't blame Philips for playing by the rules.

2) poor power factor

other than that, they're really nice and demonstrably superior to
comparable CFLs in every way save purchase price.

nate

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 8/9/2013 12:10 PM, wrote:
I thought I'd share this with anyone interested. I just found
out that the new LED recessed lights solve serious problems that
exist with recessed lights, depending on where they are installed.
Case in point, I have 9 of them in a cathedral ceiling. With
conventional lights, that isn't good. First, the area around
the lights typically has no insulation, so there is heat loss.
Second, with a metal fixture, it gets cold, transferring the cold
to the trim. That causes condensation in the winter. I have
paint peeling around the lights. In the past, I've repainted
and it's OK for a few years, but then returns. Besides the heat
loss due to no insulation, there is also significant air leakage
because most of these are not even close to being air tight.

So, I just discovered that LED retrofit kits exist that solve
all this. They come in 4, 5, 6 inch versions and consist of
an adaptor on a length of wire that screws into the existing
socket. Then the new LED light gets pressed into the existing
fixture. It solves the above problems. They are available in
depths under 4", so there is still space for 3 or 4 inches of
insulation above it. Second, they are inherently mostly airtight.
Some pass an ASTM standard that says they are in fact airtight.
But even the ones that don't say they meet the std, sure look
airtight to me, especially if you put a little caulk under the
trim before shoving it in. They are almost all made of plastic
too, so transfer of cold will be limited.

They generally run about $35, but there are ones that cost more
than 2X that. Lowes has a Utilitech one that is 5 or 6", 700 lumens,
equiv to about a 65W, for $25. So, if you have recessed lights
in a cathedral ceiling or going into an attic space, they are
definitely worth considering.


Just pay attention to the color temperature and CRI of the new LEDs that
you put in. Cree CR6 is one choice with a high CRI and a low color temp
(former is indisputably good; latter is a matter of preference. But I
cannot see anyone wanting a light much over 4500K anywhere in a
residence... above that is getting into "HID headlamp" territory.)

nate

Even more importantly, be sure to match the color temperature of all
lighting sources in a given area, even if they are different
technologies. Few things will drive people more nuts than mismatched
color temperature sources in the same area.

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 8/9/2013 5:44 PM, Tomsic wrote:

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
On 8/9/2013 1:00 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 8/9/2013 11:10 AM, wrote:
I thought I'd share this with anyone interested. I just found
out that the new LED recessed lights solve serious problems that
exist with recessed lights, depending on where they are installed.
Case in point, I have 9 of them in a cathedral ceiling. With
conventional lights, that isn't good. First, the area around
the lights typically has no insulation, so there is heat loss.
Second, with a metal fixture, it gets cold, transferring the cold
to the trim. That causes condensation in the winter. I have
paint peeling around the lights. In the past, I've repainted
and it's OK for a few years, but then returns. Besides the heat
loss due to no insulation, there is also significant air leakage
because most of these are not even close to being air tight.

So, I just discovered that LED retrofit kits exist that solve
all this. They come in 4, 5, 6 inch versions and consist of
an adaptor on a length of wire that screws into the existing
socket. Then the new LED light gets pressed into the existing
fixture. It solves the above problems. They are available in
depths under 4", so there is still space for 3 or 4 inches of
insulation above it. Second, they are inherently mostly airtight.
Some pass an ASTM standard that says they are in fact airtight.
But even the ones that don't say they meet the std, sure look
airtight to me, especially if you put a little caulk under the
trim before shoving it in. They are almost all made of plastic
too, so transfer of cold will be limited.

They generally run about $35, but there are ones that cost more
than 2X that. Lowes has a Utilitech one that is 5 or 6", 700 lumens,
equiv to about a 65W, for $25. So, if you have recessed lights
in a cathedral ceiling or going into an attic space, they are
definitely worth considering.


The new LED lights are not your daddy's LED lights. I have a 12watt bulb
replacement in my desk lamp sitting atop my workstation and I'm
very satisfied with the light. I bought it earlier this year at Home
Depot and I'm sure it's already obsolete. I was in college when an LED
was a dim little indicator that only put out red light. ^_^

TDD

Hah... I remember VW using LEDs for idiot lights on the A1 and A2 chassis
cars. But blue LEDs hadn't been invented yet so the high beam indicator
was a little blue painted grain of wheat incandescent bulb.

I also remember seeing my first blue LED in the flesh. Ooooooh.

And yes, new LEDs are great. Unfortunately the nicest I've tried has
already been discontinued - the Philips L-Prize. I haven't tried any of
the can lights though, and the specs on those look better than any of the
"bulbs".

nate

The screw-in LED bulbs incorporate some of the best LED engineering around
because getting rid of the heat becomes especially hard when the LED bulb
design is restricted to the size and shape of a standard light bulb.

I'm disappointed that Philips didn't put their marketing (and pricing)
strengths behind the L-Prize lamp. It has great performance specs,
particularly color, and the DOE life tests (200 samples) are now at more
than 25,000 hours with no failures, no drop in light output and no
significant change in color.

Tomsic



it was available in Home Depot stores for $15 in subsidized areas for a
couple months. Unfortunately I found out about this shortly before they
disappeared. I bought six, the really frustrating thing is I seem to
have lost the two that I didn't install into light fixtures immediately!

I've found only two possible drawbacks to them

1) some may not like the sub-3000K color temp, but that was part of the
L-prize requirements, so don't blame Philips for playing by the rules.

2) poor power factor

other than that, they're really nice and demonstrably superior to
comparable CFLs in every way save purchase price.

nate

They (and other LED lights) beat on purchase price as well when you
consider the purchase price vs. life. You need at least several CFLs to
cover the life span of the LED so the cost per hour of service live is
about the same or less depending on the quality of each.

On 8/10/2013 9:09 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 8/9/2013 5:44 PM, Tomsic wrote:

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
On 8/9/2013 1:00 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 8/9/2013 11:10 AM, wrote:
I thought I'd share this with anyone interested. I just found
out that the new LED recessed lights solve serious problems that
exist with recessed lights, depending on where they are installed.
Case in point, I have 9 of them in a cathedral ceiling. With
conventional lights, that isn't good. First, the area around
the lights typically has no insulation, so there is heat loss.
Second, with a metal fixture, it gets cold, transferring the cold
to the trim. That causes condensation in the winter. I have
paint peeling around the lights. In the past, I've repainted
and it's OK for a few years, but then returns. Besides the heat
loss due to no insulation, there is also significant air leakage
because most of these are not even close to being air tight.

So, I just discovered that LED retrofit kits exist that solve
all this. They come in 4, 5, 6 inch versions and consist of
an adaptor on a length of wire that screws into the existing
socket. Then the new LED light gets pressed into the existing
fixture. It solves the above problems. They are available in
depths under 4", so there is still space for 3 or 4 inches of
insulation above it. Second, they are inherently mostly airtight.
Some pass an ASTM standard that says they are in fact airtight.
But even the ones that don't say they meet the std, sure look
airtight to me, especially if you put a little caulk under the
trim before shoving it in. They are almost all made of plastic
too, so transfer of cold will be limited.

They generally run about $35, but there are ones that cost more
than 2X that. Lowes has a Utilitech one that is 5 or 6", 700 lumens,
equiv to about a 65W, for $25. So, if you have recessed lights
in a cathedral ceiling or going into an attic space, they are
definitely worth considering.


The new LED lights are not your daddy's LED lights. I have a 12watt bulb
replacement in my desk lamp sitting atop my workstation and I'm
very satisfied with the light. I bought it earlier this year at Home
Depot and I'm sure it's already obsolete. I was in college when an LED
was a dim little indicator that only put out red light. ^_^

TDD

Hah... I remember VW using LEDs for idiot lights on the A1 and A2 chassis
cars. But blue LEDs hadn't been invented yet so the high beam indicator
was a little blue painted grain of wheat incandescent bulb.

I also remember seeing my first blue LED in the flesh. Ooooooh.

And yes, new LEDs are great. Unfortunately the nicest I've tried has
already been discontinued - the Philips L-Prize. I haven't tried any of
the can lights though, and the specs on those look better than any of the
"bulbs".

nate

The screw-in LED bulbs incorporate some of the best LED engineering around
because getting rid of the heat becomes especially hard when the LED bulb
design is restricted to the size and shape of a standard light bulb.

I'm disappointed that Philips didn't put their marketing (and pricing)
strengths behind the L-Prize lamp. It has great performance specs,
particularly color, and the DOE life tests (200 samples) are now at more
than 25,000 hours with no failures, no drop in light output and no
significant change in color.

Tomsic



it was available in Home Depot stores for $15 in subsidized areas for a
couple months. Unfortunately I found out about this shortly before they
disappeared. I bought six, the really frustrating thing is I seem to
have lost the two that I didn't install into light fixtures immediately!

I've found only two possible drawbacks to them

1) some may not like the sub-3000K color temp, but that was part of the
L-prize requirements, so don't blame Philips for playing by the rules.

2) poor power factor

other than that, they're really nice and demonstrably superior to
comparable CFLs in every way save purchase price.

nate

They (and other LED lights) beat on purchase price as well when you
consider the purchase price vs. life. You need at least several CFLs to
cover the life span of the LED so the cost per hour of service live is
about the same or less depending on the quality of each.


I've had very few CFLs actually fail in service; I however have replaced
some with L-Prizes where a nicer light quality was desired...
Undoubtedly "something better" will come out before the latest good
quality LED bulbs fail as well, and they'll likely get replaced by that
while still serviceable.

I'll be really happy when some good "bath bar" type globe bulbs are
introduced. CFLs in that application really suck.

nate

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

stuff snipped

other than that, they're [the L-Prize lamp] really nice and demonstrably
superior to
comparable CFLs in every way save purchase price.

And when that crossover line is reached, I'll start switching out dying CFLs
for LEDs. I wonder if the longer life span of the LEDs means that crossover
point may not come for quite some time?

--
Bobby G.

"Pete C." wrote in message news:52063b8b$0$49214

stuff snipped

They (and other LED lights) beat on purchase price as well when you
consider the purchase price vs. life. You need at least several CFLs to
cover the life span of the LED so the cost per hour of service live is
about the same or less depending on the quality of each.

I wonder if the prices reflect the true manufacturing costs or the extra
"utility" of a longer life? I pay $2 each for lithium AA and AAA cells (you
think the smaller cells would be a few cents cheaper!) and it's worth it for
hard to reach or hard to reprogram items. But there, too, I wonder is the
price reflective of the manufacturing costs or the usefulness of not having
to change the battery quite as often?

I also noticed that the increased voltage of lithum AA/AAA batteries changes
the performance of a number of items. X-10 RF transmitters have a longer
reach and the LCD display on my Acurite weather station really "pops" in
high contrast compared to the rechargeable LSD (Low Self Discharge) NiMH
batteries I had been using. It was basically readable at only one narrow
angle on the LSD NiMH cells.

--
Bobby G.

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

Just pay attention to the color temperature and CRI of the new LEDs that
you put in. Cree CR6 is one choice with a high CRI and a low color temp
(former is indisputably good; latter is a matter of preference. But I
cannot see anyone wanting a light much over 4500K anywhere in a
residence... above that is getting into "HID headlamp" territory.)

As my eyes age, I am more and more accepting of the bluish hues of LEDs
because older eyes skew way toward the yellow because of aging tissue:

http://www.sharecare.com/health/eye-...ct-eyes-vision

The conjunctiva turns thinner and more fragile with age and takes on a
yellowish tinge from an increase in elastic fibers. The sclera also assumes
a yellow hue from a collection of lipid, or fat, deposits.

So the bluish-tinged light from some LEDs neutralizes the yellow overcast
that effects aging eyes. I've switched from tungsten filament flashlights
to LEDs because I find it very hard to see as clearly with the old-style
yellowish bulbs. The only exception is the big hand-held 12V spots.

--
Bobby G.

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
On 8/9/2013 5:44 PM, Tomsic wrote:

Big snip...


The screw-in LED bulbs incorporate some of the best LED engineering
around
because getting rid of the heat becomes especially hard when the LED bulb
design is restricted to the size and shape of a standard light bulb.

I'm disappointed that Philips didn't put their marketing (and pricing)
strengths behind the L-Prize lamp. It has great performance specs,
particularly color, and the DOE life tests (200 samples) are now at more
than 25,000 hours with no failures, no drop in light output and no
significant change in color.

Tomsic



it was available in Home Depot stores for $15 in subsidized areas for a
couple months. Unfortunately I found out about this shortly before they
disappeared. I bought six, the really frustrating thing is I seem to have
lost the two that I didn't install into light fixtures immediately!

I've found only two possible drawbacks to them

1) some may not like the sub-3000K color temp, but that was part of the
L-prize requirements, so don't blame Philips for playing by the rules.

2) poor power factor

other than that, they're really nice and demonstrably superior to
comparable CFLs in every way save purchase price.

nate

I understand the need for high power factors in commercial/industrial
systems; but why in residential systems where there are such mixed loads and
a power transformer for every few houses. Seems like the cost of adding
power factor correction in an LED bulb ought to be equated somehow with the
need to do it.

Tomsic

On 8/11/2013 1:04 PM, Tomsic wrote:
"Nate wrote in message
...
On 8/9/2013 5:44 PM, Tomsic wrote:

Big snip...


The screw-in LED bulbs incorporate some of the best LED engineering
around
because getting rid of the heat becomes especially hard when the LED bulb
design is restricted to the size and shape of a standard light bulb.

I'm disappointed that Philips didn't put their marketing (and pricing)
strengths behind the L-Prize lamp. It has great performance specs,
particularly color, and the DOE life tests (200 samples) are now at more
than 25,000 hours with no failures, no drop in light output and no
significant change in color.

Tomsic



it was available in Home Depot stores for $15 in subsidized areas for a
couple months. Unfortunately I found out about this shortly before they
disappeared. I bought six, the really frustrating thing is I seem to have
lost the two that I didn't install into light fixtures immediately!

I've found only two possible drawbacks to them

1) some may not like the sub-3000K color temp, but that was part of the
L-prize requirements, so don't blame Philips for playing by the rules.

2) poor power factor

other than that, they're really nice and demonstrably superior to
comparable CFLs in every way save purchase price.

nate

I understand the need for high power factors in commercial/industrial
systems; but why in residential systems where there are such mixed loads and
a power transformer for every few houses. Seems like the cost of adding
power factor correction in an LED bulb ought to be equated somehow with the
need to do it.

Tomsic

Lower power factor causes losses (higher current through wire
resistance) for a utility and generators have to have a higher rating.
The European Union requires power factor correction for some power
supplies - I don't know which.

The lower power factor CFLs and probably LEDs is the same as in power
supplies and is caused by distortion of the current waveform instead of
the phase displacement that motors cause.

"bud--" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 8/11/2013 1:04 PM, Tomsic wrote:
"Nate wrote in message
...
On 8/9/2013 5:44 PM, Tomsic wrote:

Big snip...


The screw-in LED bulbs incorporate some of the best LED engineering
around
because getting rid of the heat becomes especially hard when the LED
bulb
design is restricted to the size and shape of a standard light bulb.

I'm disappointed that Philips didn't put their marketing (and pricing)
strengths behind the L-Prize lamp. It has great performance specs,
particularly color, and the DOE life tests (200 samples) are now at
more
than 25,000 hours with no failures, no drop in light output and no
significant change in color.

Tomsic



it was available in Home Depot stores for $15 in subsidized areas for a
couple months. Unfortunately I found out about this shortly before they
disappeared. I bought six, the really frustrating thing is I seem to
have
lost the two that I didn't install into light fixtures immediately!

I've found only two possible drawbacks to them

1) some may not like the sub-3000K color temp, but that was part of the
L-prize requirements, so don't blame Philips for playing by the rules.

2) poor power factor

other than that, they're really nice and demonstrably superior to
comparable CFLs in every way save purchase price.

nate

I understand the need for high power factors in commercial/industrial
systems; but why in residential systems where there are such mixed loads
and
a power transformer for every few houses. Seems like the cost of adding
power factor correction in an LED bulb ought to be equated somehow with
the
need to do it.

Tomsic

Lower power factor causes losses (higher current through wire resistance)
for a utility and generators have to have a higher rating. The European
Union requires power factor correction for some power supplies - I don't
know which.

The lower power factor CFLs and probably LEDs is the same as in power
supplies and is caused by distortion of the current waveform instead of
the phase displacement that motors cause.

Yes, I understand that and the added complexity of the distorted waveform so
that any power factor correction circuitry will have to be electronic rather
than a simple capacitor (or inductor in some cases). I'm wondering how
serious the problem really is in homes where loads are relatively small and
the pole transformer tends to isolate the local power factor problems from
the larger distribution system. I haven't seen any articles, studies, etc.
that report any numbers or claim that systems have been damaged by power
factor problems.

Tomsic

"bud--" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 8/13/2013 6:38 AM, Tomsic wrote:
wrote in message
eb.com...
On 8/11/2013 1:04 PM, Tomsic wrote:
"Nate wrote in message
...
On 8/9/2013 5:44 PM, Tomsic wrote:

Big snip...


The screw-in LED bulbs incorporate some of the best LED engineering
around
because getting rid of the heat becomes especially hard when the LED
bulb
design is restricted to the size and shape of a standard light bulb.

I'm disappointed that Philips didn't put their marketing (and
pricing)
strengths behind the L-Prize lamp. It has great performance specs,
particularly color, and the DOE life tests (200 samples) are now at
more
than 25,000 hours with no failures, no drop in light output and no
significant change in color.

Tomsic



it was available in Home Depot stores for $15 in subsidized areas for
a
couple months. Unfortunately I found out about this shortly before
they
disappeared. I bought six, the really frustrating thing is I seem to
have
lost the two that I didn't install into light fixtures immediately!

I've found only two possible drawbacks to them

1) some may not like the sub-3000K color temp, but that was part of
the
L-prize requirements, so don't blame Philips for playing by the rules.

2) poor power factor

other than that, they're really nice and demonstrably superior to
comparable CFLs in every way save purchase price.

nate

I understand the need for high power factors in commercial/industrial
systems; but why in residential systems where there are such mixed
loads
and
a power transformer for every few houses. Seems like the cost of
adding
power factor correction in an LED bulb ought to be equated somehow
with
the
need to do it.

Tomsic

Lower power factor causes losses (higher current through wire
resistance)
for a utility and generators have to have a higher rating. The European
Union requires power factor correction for some power supplies - I don't
know which.

The lower power factor CFLs and probably LEDs is the same as in power
supplies and is caused by distortion of the current waveform instead of
the phase displacement that motors cause.

Yes, I understand that and the added complexity of the distorted waveform
so
that any power factor correction circuitry will have to be electronic
rather
than a simple capacitor (or inductor in some cases). I'm wondering how
serious the problem really is in homes where loads are relatively small
and
the pole transformer tends to isolate the local power factor problems
from
the larger distribution system.

Does the transformer reduce distortion power factor?

I haven't seen any articles, studies, etc.
that report any numbers or claim that systems have been damaged by power
factor problems.


An article on the actual magnitude of the problem would be interesting.

The EU requires switch mode power supplies (like in computers) rated over
75W have some power factor correction. That is about all I have seen.

I agree with you that it may not be practical, or useful, to correct CFLs
or LEDs. I believe CFLs use small switch mode power supplies. My guess is
that LEDs don't use filter capacitors that cause a lot of the problem.

Yes, that's my understanding too. The capacitors take up too much space in
the base modules of screw-in CFL and LED bulbs.

Tomsic

On 8/13/2013 6:38 AM, Tomsic wrote:
wrote in message
eb.com...
On 8/11/2013 1:04 PM, Tomsic wrote:
"Nate wrote in message
...
On 8/9/2013 5:44 PM, Tomsic wrote:

Big snip...


The screw-in LED bulbs incorporate some of the best LED engineering
around
because getting rid of the heat becomes especially hard when the LED
bulb
design is restricted to the size and shape of a standard light bulb.

I'm disappointed that Philips didn't put their marketing (and pricing)
strengths behind the L-Prize lamp. It has great performance specs,
particularly color, and the DOE life tests (200 samples) are now at
more
than 25,000 hours with no failures, no drop in light output and no
significant change in color.

Tomsic



it was available in Home Depot stores for $15 in subsidized areas for a
couple months. Unfortunately I found out about this shortly before they
disappeared. I bought six, the really frustrating thing is I seem to
have
lost the two that I didn't install into light fixtures immediately!

I've found only two possible drawbacks to them

1) some may not like the sub-3000K color temp, but that was part of the
L-prize requirements, so don't blame Philips for playing by the rules.

2) poor power factor

other than that, they're really nice and demonstrably superior to
comparable CFLs in every way save purchase price.

nate

I understand the need for high power factors in commercial/industrial
systems; but why in residential systems where there are such mixed loads
and
a power transformer for every few houses. Seems like the cost of adding
power factor correction in an LED bulb ought to be equated somehow with
the
need to do it.

Tomsic

Lower power factor causes losses (higher current through wire resistance)
for a utility and generators have to have a higher rating. The European
Union requires power factor correction for some power supplies - I don't
know which.

The lower power factor CFLs and probably LEDs is the same as in power
supplies and is caused by distortion of the current waveform instead of
the phase displacement that motors cause.

Yes, I understand that and the added complexity of the distorted waveform so
that any power factor correction circuitry will have to be electronic rather
than a simple capacitor (or inductor in some cases). I'm wondering how
serious the problem really is in homes where loads are relatively small and
the pole transformer tends to isolate the local power factor problems from
the larger distribution system.

Does the transformer reduce distortion power factor?

I haven't seen any articles, studies, etc.
that report any numbers or claim that systems have been damaged by power
factor problems.


An article on the actual magnitude of the problem would be interesting.

The EU requires switch mode power supplies (like in computers) rated
over 75W have some power factor correction. That is about all I have seen.

I agree with you that it may not be practical, or useful, to correct
CFLs or LEDs. I believe CFLs use small switch mode power supplies. My
guess is that LEDs don't use filter capacitors that cause a lot of the
problem.

On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 10:12:24 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
On 8/13/2013 6:38 AM, Tomsic wrote:

wrote in message

eb.com...

On 8/11/2013 1:04 PM, Tomsic wrote:

"Nate wrote in message

...

On 8/9/2013 5:44 PM, Tomsic wrote:



Big snip...





The screw-in LED bulbs incorporate some of the best LED engineering

around

because getting rid of the heat becomes especially hard when the LED

bulb

design is restricted to the size and shape of a standard light bulb.



I'm disappointed that Philips didn't put their marketing (and pricing)

strengths behind the L-Prize lamp. It has great performance specs,

particularly color, and the DOE life tests (200 samples) are now at

more

than 25,000 hours with no failures, no drop in light output and no

significant change in color.



Tomsic







it was available in Home Depot stores for $15 in subsidized areas for a

couple months. Unfortunately I found out about this shortly before they

disappeared. I bought six, the really frustrating thing is I seem to

have

lost the two that I didn't install into light fixtures immediately!



I've found only two possible drawbacks to them



1) some may not like the sub-3000K color temp, but that was part of the

L-prize requirements, so don't blame Philips for playing by the rules.



2) poor power factor



other than that, they're really nice and demonstrably superior to

comparable CFLs in every way save purchase price.



nate



I understand the need for high power factors in commercial/industrial

systems; but why in residential systems where there are such mixed loads

and

a power transformer for every few houses. Seems like the cost of adding

power factor correction in an LED bulb ought to be equated somehow with

the

need to do it.



Tomsic



Lower power factor causes losses (higher current through wire resistance)

for a utility and generators have to have a higher rating. The European

Union requires power factor correction for some power supplies - I don't

know which.



The lower power factor CFLs and probably LEDs is the same as in power

supplies and is caused by distortion of the current waveform instead of

the phase displacement that motors cause.



Yes, I understand that and the added complexity of the distorted waveform so

that any power factor correction circuitry will have to be electronic rather

than a simple capacitor (or inductor in some cases). I'm wondering how

serious the problem really is in homes where loads are relatively small and

the pole transformer tends to isolate the local power factor problems from

the larger distribution system.



Does the transformer reduce distortion power factor?



I haven't seen any articles, studies, etc.

that report any numbers or claim that systems have been damaged by power

factor problems.





An article on the actual magnitude of the problem would be interesting.



The EU requires switch mode power supplies (like in computers) rated

over 75W have some power factor correction. That is about all I have seen.



I agree with you that it may not be practical, or useful, to correct

CFLs or LEDs. I believe CFLs use small switch mode power supplies. My

guess is that LEDs don't use filter capacitors that cause a lot of the

problem.

They do use capacitors as part of the switched power supply. And as I
recall there is an issue with them not liking tradional triac dimmers
because of where in the AC waveform the triac type turn on and
what the typical LED power supplies want. There was a leading edge,
vs trailing edge issue, something along those lines.