On 7/5/2013 5:22 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message


The size of the AFCI precludes them being in a skinny format ... so
far.

It looks like my options are not good for replacing all the current breakers
with AFCI's. They're expensive, too, at least the list prices I've seen
are. In most of the new lines I've run, I know where the first outlet in
the circuit is located and I can replace it with a AFCI outlet instead of a
breaker except that most of those outlet boxes are occupied by GFCI's. )-:
I am not fond of using outlet protection devices because it means you have
to go all over the house when a GFCI/AFCI outlet "pops" - been there, done
that. That reminds me to annotate the breaker box legend with the location
of all the GFCI outlets . . .

I have a post that covers receptacle-type AFCIs, including that you can
install them adjacent to the panel and use them to protect the circuit
downstream (about the same as an AFCI circuit breaker). For new
circuits, the NEC is particular about the wiring method from panel to
AFCI receptacle.


Besides, it's not the new circuits I am worried about. It's the old,
cloth-covered wire circuits that I am most concerned about. I'll have to
review the circuit panel and decide which ones regularly carry more than 5A
and will consider replacing those regular breakers with AFCI units. From
what Bud has said, an AFCI requires at least that much current to trip.


AFCIs will be most useful when the new circuits they are installed on
become old circuits.

On Fri, 5 Jul 2013 14:58:35 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message news:6de381a1-ed1f-4c06-9d38-

stuff snipped

With an Edison, I can pull one romex with two hots, one neutral,
one ground. The one neutral is shared by the two groups of
outlets. I've traded two cables for one and reduced the
number of conductors by one, all of which save some $$.

From my understanding of MWC's (which could easily be wrong) if the shared
neutral fails for any reason, you can potentially end up with much more than
120VAC where you don't want it. If a neutral fails in normally wired pair
of outlets, there's usually no risk of voltage escalation or imbalance.
However a failer neutral in a MWC can play out like this:


http://www.ecmweb.com/images/archive/205ecm18fig1.gif

There are a couple of other considerations that affect the cost analysis,
too. I have always been able to buy 12/2 w/g Romex on sale for much less
than 12/3 w/g. So much less, in fact, that there was no difference in the
price between running two 12/2 cables and using a MWC using 2/3. I assume
that's a function of how much more 12/2 is manufactured than 12/3. It took
a little longer to install and staple, but I really prefer separate
neutrals. I assume that the different in installation time is a much bigger
concern to builders of large tracts of homes.

MWC's require (at least I am pretty sure NEC and CEC say so) a double pole
breaker requiring de-energizing both circuits to do repairs. Not a big
issue, but at times it's been nice to have a nearby live outlet to plug
tools into when I am working on a different circuit in the room. Not sure
if the DP breakers with a single handle for MWC's come in "dual skinny"
format, either, which is another concern for folks wanting to add new
circuits to an older box.

I do have one multiwire circuit in the panel to power my XTB X10
repeater/coupler/amplifier but nothing else is plugged into that outlet,
which has about 6' of wire running to the nearby circuit panel. Even that
outlet is wired with two separate runs of 12/2 w/g Romex.

I am sure there are labor cost savings for developers building a series of
houses, but in my case MWC's didn't make much sense except for the special
case of the X10 device that by design has to straddle both hots to
communicate between the phases.

Split circuit receptacles were required by code in kitchens before
GFCIs were required - and the ONLY way to put GFCI protection on these
split kitchen outlets is to use a 2 pole panel mounted device.

Current code prefers non-split 20 amp GFCI outlets within a 59 inch
radius of the sink, but still allows split 15 circuits

On 7/4/2013 8:13 PM, gregz wrote:

An arc fault breaker is not also a ground fault is it. Are there some ?


AFCIs include ground fault protection, but it is at about30mA. GFCIs
will trip with a ground fault of 5mA, so AFCIs don't replace GFCIs.

I don't think the NEC requires both GFCI and AFCI protection at the same
location. I haven't seen AFCI+GFCI devices. GFCI wire-through
receptacles can be used downstream from AFCIs.

The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On 6/27/2013 11:32 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Thanks for the head up. I can get LPS3 at a hardware some what near me. I replaced a circuit panel box for a friend, a couple years ago. We took out a FPE Stabloc, and put in something modern. Probably saved his life. And his wife and two kids. I could have sprayed all the neutrals and aluminum connctions with that stuff. Well, next time....

Lps1 and Lps2 are lubricants. One dries wet, the other dries dry.
.

The LPS 3 dries to a waxy film that can be easily removed. I've used it
in motor connection boxes on cooling towers to prevent corrosion. ^_^

TDD

Doesn't solder well then?

--
Tekkie

Girl Friend Interruptus will definitely cause a fire.

What does GFCI do, then?
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"Guv Bob" wrote in message m...
Girl Friend Interruptus will definitely cause a fire.

On 07/04/2013 11:57 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

stuff snipped

In my limited experience with them, I haven't had any issues. Every
time it's tripped it's been because of a legitimate problem.

It seems that's the case for many people who have installed them.

Also, the amount of improper wiring that I found in my last house,

You wouldn't believe the things I discovered when I ripped out the poorly
finished basement's walls and ceiling. The additional wiring was done with
equal disrespect. Neutrals pulled from separate circuits, wires nicked by
bad stripping, grounded outlets installed without any grounds, wire nuts
improperly installed, speaker wire instead of Romex, etc.

combined with simple age and the tendency for old 60C wiring to become
brittle in ceiling light boxes, makes me think that in general they're a
good idea. I lived in my last place for almost a year before going up
in the attic and doing a serious investigation of the wiring, what if
something had happened before I started fixing everything? And since
everything was working, a homeowner less inclined to do it themselves
could have lived there a decade or more unaware of any potential issues
(as I believe to be the case of the previous owners.)

I have an old house, too, built when WWII was just starting and all sorts of
compromises had to be made because of war shortages (no building paper
between the floors, for example). I can see great benefit in installing
AFCI's to help detect any concealed faults in the wiring system.

I've added a number of new circuits for high-current devices over the years
because I didn't feel comfortable taxing the old, cloth covered wiring with
loads it wasn't designed for, but those circuits are still active. If I
switched them to AFCI's and they started tripping, I would probably just
disconnect them and put in a new circuit with Romex because tracing a fault
through the old wiring would be very hard. The old wiring runs up to the
attic and then down again and everything's behind plaster and lathe walls
and ceilings.

In any event, I agree with you that with old wiring, installing AFCI's could
be a lifesaver.

How much work was involved when you checked/rewired the attic, Nate? I
decided that is was far easier, although slightly more expensive, to just
put in new, grounded 20A circuits from the basement up wherever I could to
replace the 15A cloth-covered wires going up in the attic. I found that the
cloth-covered wires were still mostly OK, except around ceiling junction
boxes and switches that had been replaced. Considerably fraying occurred
wherever the wire had been disturbed for any reason.

In my case, not any more than doing it any other way - I didn't have a
good path to the basement and the house was wired the old school way
with the primary wiring paths going from ceiling box to ceiling box so
ripping everything out and starting over was easy. I reused the homerun
to the panel because it was BX and would have been hard to repull. I
did have to pull one run from a wall recep to a ceiling box behind a
plaster (exterior!) wall which if I'd missed it would have required me
to open the wall... but fortunately I didn't mess that one up.


nate


No, they're not a replacement for proper wiring products and methods,
but in a structure where the wiring is apparently in good shape but
known to be old and not up to today's code, it makes sense. For newer
houses where everything's right, it might be overkill, but won't hurt
anything either.

Agreed.

--
Bobby G.




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On 06/27/2013 09:38 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 07:45:46 -0400, "Tomsic" wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 04:17:15 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Now the question is, did that GFCI preclude the circuit breaker's ability
to do its job?
No. It was NOT a short. In most cases it is a loose, intermittenr, or
high resistance connection that causes a fire - not a short.

In order for this to happen there MUST be a load of some sort on the
circuit. A normal breaker will not respond to an "arc fault" of this
type, and nor will a CFCI - an "arc fault detector" breaker is
designed to trip under those conditions. Not sure how effective they
are in real life - or if they are more likely to false trigger.

I can add some comments about your last point from experience over the last
12 years. I've had circuit-breaker AFCIs on several house circuits during
that time and have had maybe 4-6 nuisance trips overall. A couple happened
when we switched ceiling fan speeds using the fan's wall-box control. The
others happened unexpectedly for no obvious reason.



Frankly, I expected more nuisance trips based upon what I had been hearing
and reading when the installation was new since, at that time, I was working
with one of the NEC code panels and there was a lot of discussion about it.
As I understand it, AFCIs react to an electrical arc by sensing the radio
frequencies that the arc generates. But opening/closing a switch can
generate such an arc (usually very small) and the same thing can happen when
an incandescent lamp filament fails or electric motors with brushes or
inertia switches power up.

Tomsic

Or the brushes "bounce" on ANY brush motor. I've heard of problems
running vacuum cleaners, older sewing machines, handheld mixers, and
food processors, among other devices. Anything that can produce
multiple sparks. Even unplugging alamp while it is turned on - if
you don't pull the plug quickly - can trip an AFCI


To be fair, I would be hard pressed to describe the difference between
an undesirable arc and one caused by a plug being withdrawn slowly under
load, so it is hard to fault the breaker for not being able to determine it.

nate

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On 07/04/2013 10:13 PM, gregz wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
On 07/03/2013 06:07 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

stuff snipped

The science of AFCIs is proprietary and they are not all the same but
they look at current, detecting short duration spikes

I'm confused now. Do the AFCI's use RF at all to detect arcing conditions?
I've been trying to find some descriptions or patents that detail how they
work without much success. One interesting site I found:

http://electronicdesign.com/electrom...rk-controversy

said that one user, who thought his AFCI was "nuisance tripping" discovered
that it was actually tripping because of a dangerous condition in his
bathroom.

"I read all the available information on the Web running into all manner
of grousing, but I also saw an article explaining what the breaker is and
what it does. Encouraged, I started looking for the culprit. On and off it
took me two weeks to separate the circuits to discover that an improperly
installed GFCI socket in the bathroom (on the bedroom socket circuit)
compressed the hot wire against the grounded socket box," he said.
"Old Romex insulation fractured, crumbled, and allowed arcing to the box. I
do not know how long this condition lasted, but now it is fixed," he added.
"In six months, neither of the two breakers disconnected. I am a convert and
I would encourage retrofitting AFCI breakers, especially in older
installations."

Maybe it IS time to switch to AFCIs!

--

Bobby G.



In my limited experience with them, I haven't had any issues. Every time
it's tripped it's been because of a legitimate problem.

Also, the amount of improper wiring that I found in my last house,
combined with simple age and the tendency for old 60C wiring to become
brittle in ceiling light boxes, makes me think that in general they're a
good idea. I lived in my last place for almost a year before going up in
the attic and doing a serious investigation of the wiring, what if
something had happened before I started fixing everything? And since
everything was working, a homeowner less inclined to do it themselves
could have lived there a decade or more unaware of any potential issues
(as I believe to be the case of the previous owners.)

No, they're not a replacement for proper wiring products and methods, but
in a structure where the wiring is apparently in good shape but known to
be old and not up to today's code, it makes sense. For newer houses
where everything's right, it might be overkill, but won't hurt anything either.

nate

I installed arc fault breakers on two legs, which included both bedrooms.
This was old wiring. One leg would trip on occasion. I called that leg the
big mess, because if you saw it, that's what yo would call it. Most if that
has been replaced, so far so good.

An arc fault breaker is not also a ground fault is it. Are there some ?

Greg


yes they are but not at the same level as a GFCI. A GFCI intended for
personnel protection will trip at 5 mA of fault current, the ones in an
AFCI breaker are a higher threshold, I think 30 mA? so while they do
pretty much the same thing you cannot rely on the AFCI to provide GFCI
protection where required.

nate

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On 07/05/2013 07:37 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 7/4/2013 8:13 PM, gregz wrote:

An arc fault breaker is not also a ground fault is it. Are there some ?


AFCIs include ground fault protection. I believe it is required at 50mA
or less and is provided at 30mA. The cpsc.gov link I posted has
information on ground fault protection and why it is included.

GFCIs will trip with a ground fault of 5mA, so AFCIs don't replace
GFCIs. Another difference is that GFCIs have a couple additional
components that will trip the GFCI whenever there is a downstream N-G
connection, load or no-load. AFCIs will trip with a N-G downstream
connection (as gfretwell wrote) but there has to be a load to produce a
voltage drop on the neutral wire.

I don't think the NEC requires both GFCI and AFCI protection at the same
location. GFCI wire-through receptacles can be used downstream from AFCIs.

OK, I see that the question was already answered... sorry...

I actually had a situation where I was required to use AFCIs and GFCIs
together. In my last house while I was in the process of rewiring the
upstairs, I had half of the floor properly grounded and half still using
the original cloth covered ungrounded NM cable. Unfortunately the PO of
the place had installed grounding type receptacles anyway throughout
even though there was only originally one box with a proper ground.
Strictly reading the code at that point I could not install ungrounded
receps (I did order some but never installed them - my eventual goal was
to rewire the rest of the floor including the original wiring that was
still reasonably acceptable, but we sold the place first) alternately I
could provide GFCI protection. So that is what I did, I installed a
GFCI recep at the first box on the circuit and an AFCI breaker in the
panel (since it was a floor with three bedrooms.)

It seemed like a Mickey Mouse setup, but I never had any trouble with it.

One concern I did have though was what if someone were living in a house
that needed some kind of life support equipment? Could not a nuisance
trim be potentially fatal? I'm guessing people more knowledgeable than
I have already run the numbers on this and have determined that AFCIs
are less of a net risk than not having them.

nate

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On 06/26/2013 05:41 PM, RBM wrote:
On 6/26/2013 6:01 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 6/26/2013 8:47 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:12:30 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an
enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well
totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was
the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well
these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide
ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have
prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit
breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good
summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing
that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken
wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?


*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.


That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.

me

You can likely add them one way or another. If circuits are multiwire
branch circuits with a common neutral that is a problem.

I don't advise trying to use current technology on older wiring systems.
Aside from Edison circuits, you find anomalies caused by mixed neutrals
and the like. You certainly could test each circuit with an AFCI, and if
it holds, you're good to go

If there's a mixed neutral on a non-Edison circuit, that's a code
violation, potentially a hazard, and should be fixed!

nate

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On 06/26/2013 09:39 PM, micky wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 17:41:18 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 6/26/2013 6:01 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 6/26/2013 8:47 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:12:30 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an
enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though.
The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well
totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was
the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well
these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide
ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have
prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit
breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good
summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing
that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken
wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?


*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.


That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.

me

You can likely add them one way or another. If circuits are multiwire
branch circuits with a common neutral that is a problem.

I don't advise trying to use current technology on older wiring systems.
Aside from Edison circuits,

Even after looking it up last year, I never did understand what an
Edison circuit is or how it's different from any other circuit.

It's basically a 120/240 two-phase circuit with two hots and a neutral.
The advantage of using it is that it requires two less wires to be
pulled than two separate 120VAC circuits, because only one neutral and
one ground is required rather than two of each. The reason that you can
get away with it is that if you are only using 120VAC loads, but they
are evenly split between the two hot legs, the current in the neutral
will actually be zero! This is because the two 120VAC hots are 180
degrees out of phase (they add to a potential of 240VAC) it's very
similar to the way a three phase system works with 480VAC/277VAC if you
are familiar with that but with only two "phases."

Apparently this was devised by Edison as a means to provide two DC
circuits with only three wires (I guess the two "phases" in that case
would have been one wire at the positive nominal voltage relative to
ground and the other would be at negative nominal voltage relative to
ground) and someone appropriated the terminology to include the
analogous AC configuration... which makes sense as we all know that
Edison was a proponent of DC not AC. (Tesla and Westinghouse were the AC
guys...)

The problem with using an AFCI on an Edison circuit is that you would
need a two pole breaker, which do exist but are unsurprisingly more
expensive than a single pole unit (or even two single pole units!) An
alternative would be two single pole breakers, but the manufacturer
would have to list them as being acceptable to use with a handle tie and
I haven't researched it enough to determine if there are any like that
or not.

https://www.platt.com/platt-electric...px?zpid=473677


you find anomalies caused by mixed neutrals
and the like. You certainly could test each circuit with an AFCI, and if
it holds, you're good to go

I know approximately what a mixed neutral is. I don't think my home
described below is likely to have the anomalies you speak of.

My house is from 1979, has quite a bit of empty space in the breaker
box, and there has only been one change, one added circuit, to the
attic to power the attic ceiling light (with receptacle), the roof
fan, and the outdooor floodlight. Along the way it goes by the far
wall of the laundry room where it powers a ceiling light and 5 double
receptacles (no more than 2 sockets are used at any one time, a lamp
and one power tool or another.) The circuit breaker has never
tripped.

Do you think it's likely I'll have problems changing to AFCI?


I'm assuming what he means by a "mixed neutral" is one where neutrals
from one circuit are cross-connected to another circuit. That would be
a code violation and has been for ages - when neutrals from different
circuits are connected together you can no longer assure that the
currents in a cable sum to zero which has been a requirement for a very
long time.

So... you shouldn't have that situation, and if you do, might as well
find out about it now and fix it (should not require opening any walls
unless you have hidden splices which would be another violation...)

nate


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On 07/05/2013 11:06 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jul 2013 14:58:35 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message news:6de381a1-ed1f-4c06-9d38-

stuff snipped

With an Edison, I can pull one romex with two hots, one neutral,
one ground. The one neutral is shared by the two groups of
outlets. I've traded two cables for one and reduced the
number of conductors by one, all of which save some $$.

From my understanding of MWC's (which could easily be wrong) if the shared
neutral fails for any reason, you can potentially end up with much more than
120VAC where you don't want it. If a neutral fails in normally wired pair
of outlets, there's usually no risk of voltage escalation or imbalance.
However a failer neutral in a MWC can play out like this:


http://www.ecmweb.com/images/archive/205ecm18fig1.gif

There are a couple of other considerations that affect the cost analysis,
too. I have always been able to buy 12/2 w/g Romex on sale for much less
than 12/3 w/g. So much less, in fact, that there was no difference in the
price between running two 12/2 cables and using a MWC using 2/3. I assume
that's a function of how much more 12/2 is manufactured than 12/3. It took
a little longer to install and staple, but I really prefer separate
neutrals. I assume that the different in installation time is a much bigger
concern to builders of large tracts of homes.

MWC's require (at least I am pretty sure NEC and CEC say so) a double pole
breaker requiring de-energizing both circuits to do repairs. Not a big
issue, but at times it's been nice to have a nearby live outlet to plug
tools into when I am working on a different circuit in the room. Not sure
if the DP breakers with a single handle for MWC's come in "dual skinny"
format, either, which is another concern for folks wanting to add new
circuits to an older box.

I do have one multiwire circuit in the panel to power my XTB X10
repeater/coupler/amplifier but nothing else is plugged into that outlet,
which has about 6' of wire running to the nearby circuit panel. Even that
outlet is wired with two separate runs of 12/2 w/g Romex.

I am sure there are labor cost savings for developers building a series of
houses, but in my case MWC's didn't make much sense except for the special
case of the X10 device that by design has to straddle both hots to
communicate between the phases.

Split circuit receptacles were required by code in kitchens before
GFCIs were required - and the ONLY way to put GFCI protection on these
split kitchen outlets is to use a 2 pole panel mounted device.

Current code prefers non-split 20 amp GFCI outlets within a 59 inch
radius of the sink, but still allows split 15 circuits


That's a Canadian thing... it is not required in the US and appears not
to be common practice although it would still make sense to do it that
way in many situations.

nate

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On 06/26/2013 10:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 09:48:35 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/26/2013 5:50 AM, RBM wrote:
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

I believe arc fault circuit breakers could prevent fires in homes with
aluminum Romex. I've heard sizzling inside many junction boxes in many
homes wired with aluminum Romex. O_o

TDD
Then they were not wired properly. Mine is over 40 years old and not a
single wiring problem - but I AM replacing all switches and outlets
with new COALR devices. Surprisingly, there is no such thing as a
COALR GFCI device available in Canada (according to my electrical
supplier) Need to use GFCI breakers


Can you use pigtails in Canada? (e.g. purple wire nuts with copper
pigtails) that could be another option if for whatever reason it is
inconvenient to use the breakers)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Tue, 09 Jul 2013 09:23:12 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 06/26/2013 10:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 09:48:35 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/26/2013 5:50 AM, RBM wrote:
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

I believe arc fault circuit breakers could prevent fires in homes with
aluminum Romex. I've heard sizzling inside many junction boxes in many
homes wired with aluminum Romex. O_o

TDD
Then they were not wired properly. Mine is over 40 years old and not a
single wiring problem - but I AM replacing all switches and outlets
with new COALR devices. Surprisingly, there is no such thing as a
COALR GFCI device available in Canada (according to my electrical
supplier) Need to use GFCI breakers


Can you use pigtails in Canada? (e.g. purple wire nuts with copper
pigtails) that could be another option if for whatever reason it is
inconvenient to use the breakers)

nate
You CAN use pigtails - with either the expensive crimp-on system or
the bi-metal wire nuts - but the wire nut pigtails in particular are
actually more problematic than a non-CoAlr device directly on the
aluminum wire.(assuming second generation aluminum)

Box fill also quickly becomes a problem (which contributes to the
problems with nutted pigtails)

On 7/9/2013 10:40 AM, wrote:
Can you use pigtails in Canada? (e.g. purple wire nuts with copper
pigtails) that could be another option if for whatever reason it is
inconvenient to use the breakers)

nate
You CAN use pigtails - with either the expensive crimp-on system or
the bi-metal wire nuts - but the wire nut pigtails in particular are
actually more problematic than a non-CoAlr device directly on the
aluminum wire.(assuming second generation aluminum)


Probably not much 2nd generation wire around. But the UL testing for
CoAlr devices is done with it.

There was extensive research done on aluminum connections for the CPSC.
The engineer that did the research did not like the only wire nuts that
are UL listed for aluminum (Ideal 65?). He preferred 3M ScotchLoks,
after abrading the wire to remove oxide and adding antioxide paste. Wire
nuts installed that way are quite reliable, and certainly better than
some of the non-CoAlr devices.

He now recommends King Innovation AlumiConn connectors.

On 7/9/2013 7:11 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:

The problem with using an AFCI on an Edison circuit is that you would
need a two pole breaker, which do exist but are unsurprisingly more
expensive than a single pole unit (or even two single pole units!) An
alternative would be two single pole breakers, but the manufacturer
would have to list them as being acceptable to use with a handle tie and
I haven't researched it enough to determine if there are any like that
or not.

A handle tie might be acceptable if AFCI breakers only detected arc
faults. But they also include ground fault protection, which requires
the neutral to go through the breaker, which means you need a 2-pole
breaker for an Edison circuit.

On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 08:56:28 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 7/9/2013 10:40 AM, wrote:
Can you use pigtails in Canada? (e.g. purple wire nuts with copper
pigtails) that could be another option if for whatever reason it is
inconvenient to use the breakers)

nate
You CAN use pigtails - with either the expensive crimp-on system or
the bi-metal wire nuts - but the wire nut pigtails in particular are
actually more problematic than a non-CoAlr device directly on the
aluminum wire.(assuming second generation aluminum)


Probably not much 2nd generation wire around. But the UL testing for
CoAlr devices is done with it.

There was extensive research done on aluminum connections for the CPSC.
The engineer that did the research did not like the only wire nuts that
are UL listed for aluminum (Ideal 65?). He preferred 3M ScotchLoks,
after abrading the wire to remove oxide and adding antioxide paste. Wire
nuts installed that way are quite reliable, and certainly better than
some of the non-CoAlr devices.

He now recommends King Innovation AlumiConn connectors.


The alumiconns are the ones that require a trained, licences, and
certified installer and cost about $10 each installed???

On 07/11/2013 12:08 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 7/10/2013 1:54 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 08:56:28 -0600,
wrote:

On 7/9/2013 10:40 AM, wrote:
Can you use pigtails in Canada? (e.g. purple wire nuts with copper
pigtails) that could be another option if for whatever reason it is
inconvenient to use the breakers)

nate
You CAN use pigtails - with either the expensive crimp-on system or
the bi-metal wire nuts - but the wire nut pigtails in particular are
actually more problematic than a non-CoAlr device directly on the
aluminum wire.(assuming second generation aluminum)


Probably not much 2nd generation wire around. But the UL testing for
CoAlr devices is done with it.

There was extensive research done on aluminum connections for the CPSC.
The engineer that did the research did not like the only wire nuts that
are UL listed for aluminum (Ideal 65?). He preferred 3M ScotchLoks,
after abrading the wire to remove oxide and adding antioxide paste. Wire
nuts installed that way are quite reliable, and certainly better than
some of the non-CoAlr devices.

He now recommends King Innovation AlumiConn connectors.


The alumiconns are the ones that require a trained, licences, and
certified installer and cost about $10 each installed???

That is COPALUM, which is an AMP product, and I suspect there are not
many installers left.

With AlumiConn the connection is made with a set screw.
http://www.electricalmarketplace.com...Fe4-MgodtmsAxw

It appears to be a good splice when made according to the manufacturer's
instructions. It is also UL and ULC listed for aluminum.

The current recommendations for aluminum connections by the engineer in
my previous post is at
http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/R...Fire070706.pdf

In merry old England wire nuts have not been used in a long time, and I
think AlumiConns are similar to what is used for all small branch
circuit splices.

So what is currently used in England for wire splices in house wiring?
the push in "chocolate block" things? I've seen them used in LV
applications but they seem too close to a backstab receptacle for me to
feel really comfortable with them.

Not really in any way pertinent to anything I'll be doing any time soon,
but I just find this stuff interesting.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 7/10/2013 1:54 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 08:56:28 -0600,
wrote:

On 7/9/2013 10:40 AM, wrote:
Can you use pigtails in Canada? (e.g. purple wire nuts with copper
pigtails) that could be another option if for whatever reason it is
inconvenient to use the breakers)

nate
You CAN use pigtails - with either the expensive crimp-on system or
the bi-metal wire nuts - but the wire nut pigtails in particular are
actually more problematic than a non-CoAlr device directly on the
aluminum wire.(assuming second generation aluminum)


Probably not much 2nd generation wire around. But the UL testing for
CoAlr devices is done with it.

There was extensive research done on aluminum connections for the CPSC.
The engineer that did the research did not like the only wire nuts that
are UL listed for aluminum (Ideal 65?). He preferred 3M ScotchLoks,
after abrading the wire to remove oxide and adding antioxide paste. Wire
nuts installed that way are quite reliable, and certainly better than
some of the non-CoAlr devices.

He now recommends King Innovation AlumiConn connectors.


The alumiconns are the ones that require a trained, licences, and
certified installer and cost about $10 each installed???

That is COPALUM, which is an AMP product, and I suspect there are not
many installers left.

With AlumiConn the connection is made with a set screw.
http://www.electricalmarketplace.com...Fe4-MgodtmsAxw
It appears to be a good splice when made according to the manufacturer's
instructions. It is also UL and ULC listed for aluminum.

The current recommendations for aluminum connections by the engineer in
my previous post is at
http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/R...Fire070706.pdf

In merry old England wire nuts have not been used in a long time, and I
think AlumiConns are similar to what is used for all small branch
circuit splices.

On Thu, 11 Jul 2013 11:57:11 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 07/11/2013 12:08 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 7/10/2013 1:54 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 08:56:28 -0600,
wrote:

On 7/9/2013 10:40 AM, wrote:
Can you use pigtails in Canada? (e.g. purple wire nuts with copper
pigtails) that could be another option if for whatever reason it is
inconvenient to use the breakers)

nate
You CAN use pigtails - with either the expensive crimp-on system or
the bi-metal wire nuts - but the wire nut pigtails in particular are
actually more problematic than a non-CoAlr device directly on the
aluminum wire.(assuming second generation aluminum)


Probably not much 2nd generation wire around. But the UL testing for
CoAlr devices is done with it.

There was extensive research done on aluminum connections for the CPSC.
The engineer that did the research did not like the only wire nuts that
are UL listed for aluminum (Ideal 65?). He preferred 3M ScotchLoks,
after abrading the wire to remove oxide and adding antioxide paste. Wire
nuts installed that way are quite reliable, and certainly better than
some of the non-CoAlr devices.

He now recommends King Innovation AlumiConn connectors.


The alumiconns are the ones that require a trained, licences, and
certified installer and cost about $10 each installed???

That is COPALUM, which is an AMP product, and I suspect there are not
many installers left.

With AlumiConn the connection is made with a set screw.
http://www.electricalmarketplace.com...Fe4-MgodtmsAxw

It appears to be a good splice when made according to the manufacturer's
instructions. It is also UL and ULC listed for aluminum.

Cheaper than a COPALUM at about $3.50 each locally, and more secure
than a wire nut and not as much of an issue for box fill issues

The current recommendations for aluminum connections by the engineer in
my previous post is at
http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/R...Fire070706.pdf

In merry old England wire nuts have not been used in a long time, and I
think AlumiConns are similar to what is used for all small branch
circuit splices.

So what is currently used in England for wire splices in house wiring?
the push in "chocolate block" things? I've seen them used in LV
applications but they seem too close to a backstab receptacle for me to
feel really comfortable with them.

Not really in any way pertinent to anything I'll be doing any time soon,
but I just find this stuff interesting.

nate

I have a similar issue: A GFCI outlet in the apartment we rent was pouring smoke, white smoke that smelled like ozone. The wall behind the outlet was hot to the touch.
My GF only found out about it when stopping by the apartment during a break from work. Luckily she works in a building just next door to our apartment building. She smelled a strange smell, the lights were off, and there was white smoke pouring out of the GFCI outlet in the kitchen.
She called the fire department, who checked the wall, and also felt the wall panel was still warm to the touch.
The lights were off in the apartment at the time. (we usually turn them off) and there has been NOTHING plugged into the GFCI plug for months.
So ,yeah, we are not staying there any more.

Any ideas on how something like this starts?

Some background: It's a 139 year old historic building that last had a interior structural rehab in the 1980s. Mixed retail and living units across three floors and a basement.

Ideas?

On 11/3/2016 12:17 PM, wrote:
I have a similar issue: A GFCI outlet in the apartment we rent was pouring smoke, white smoke that smelled like ozone.


Head in the clouds again, Nate?
LOL

On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 12:17:10 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I have a similar issue: A GFCI outlet in the apartment we rent was pouring smoke, white smoke that smelled like ozone. The wall behind the outlet was hot to the touch.
My GF only found out about it when stopping by the apartment during a break from work. Luckily she works in a building just next door to our apartment building. She smelled a strange smell, the lights were off, and there was white smoke pouring out of the GFCI outlet in the kitchen.
She called the fire department, who checked the wall, and also felt the wall panel was still warm to the touch.
The lights were off in the apartment at the time. (we usually turn them off) and there has been NOTHING plugged into the GFCI plug for months.
So ,yeah, we are not staying there any more.

Any ideas on how something like this starts?

Some background: It's a 139 year old historic building that last had a interior structural rehab in the 1980s. Mixed retail and living units across three floors and a basement.

Ideas?
What else was on that circuit? In an old building like that the GFI
was usually going to be feeding all of the down stream outlets.

I have a similar issue: A GFCI outlet in the apartment we rent was pouring smoke, white smoke that smelled like ozone. The wall behind the outlet was hot to the touch.
My GF only found out about it when stopping by the apartment during a break from work. Luckily she works in a building just next door to our apartment building. She smelled a strange smell, the lights were off, and there was white smoke pouring out of the GFCI outlet in the kitchen.
She called the fire department, who checked the wall, and also felt the wall panel was still warm to the touch.
The lights were off in the apartment at the time. (we usually turn them off) and there has been NOTHING plugged into the GFCI plug for months.
So ,yeah, we are not staying there any more.

Any ideas on how something like this starts?

Some background: It's a 139 year old historic building that last had a interior structural rehab in the 1980s. Mixed retail and living units across three floors and a basement.

Ideas?

I have seen loose connections cause a GFCI outlet to burn, but that was with a load on it.

Was there any indication of water getting onto the GFCI outlet somehow? That would cause it to burn without a load.

A faulty plug would cause heat to develop, but that would also have to have a load on it.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 05:05:47 -0700 (PDT), John G
wrote:


I have a similar issue: A GFCI outlet in the apartment we rent was pouring smoke, white smoke that smelled like ozone. The wall behind the outlet was hot to the touch.
My GF only found out about it when stopping by the apartment during a break from work. Luckily she works in a building just next door to our apartment building. She smelled a strange smell, the lights were off, and there was white smoke pouring out of the GFCI outlet in the kitchen.
She called the fire department, who checked the wall, and also felt the wall panel was still warm to the touch.
The lights were off in the apartment at the time. (we usually turn them off) and there has been NOTHING plugged into the GFCI plug for months.
So ,yeah, we are not staying there any more.

Any ideas on how something like this starts?

Some background: It's a 139 year old historic building that last had a interior structural rehab in the 1980s. Mixed retail and living units across three floors and a basement.

Ideas?

I have seen loose connections cause a GFCI outlet to burn, but that was with a load on it.

Was there any indication of water getting onto the GFCI outlet somehow? That would cause it to burn without a load.

A faulty plug would cause heat to develop, but that would also have to have a load on it.

A feed through installation would allow a downcircuit load to pull
through the GFCI and an internal failure in the GFCI could cause this.
--
Mr.E

On Sat, 05 Nov 2016 08:56:45 -0400, Mr.E wrote:


A feed through installation would allow a downcircuit load to pull
through the GFCI and an internal failure in the GFCI could cause this.
--
Mr.E

That's true too and one more possibility. Maybe it was not the GFI at
all, but a mouse chewed tthe wires real close to that box.

On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 at 5:37:26 AM UTC-5, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

You are all saying that the GFCI had a loose connection or had a heavy load on it. I had a Legrand Brand (Menards) GFCI installed in an outside rated box with proper cover and all gaskets in place. It was about 5 years old. It's on the end of the line of a 20amp breaker and was rated at 20 amps, so no continuing connections to pull load. It also had nothing plugged into it. At time of removal, the wire lugs were very tight and showed no signs of heat damage. However, while away for a week of work on 6/1/20, the GFCI device burnt up. I noticed it upon return when the breaker in that outbuild was tripped, Upon resetting it, it immediately tripped again. After inspection, I found the outside water tight box (PVC?) holding this GFCI device was distorted. The outlet also had some soot under the cover and and around the door gasket. Disassembly proved that this was truly a failure of the device internally. It was not caused by a "Loose" connection to or out of the device. The repair required replacement of the entire box and outlet. None of the wiring was replaced as it was not damage and looked it's age (5yrs old). I'm just throwing this out there to say that they can fail internally. It does not have to be a loose connection or overload/high current situation for them to fail. I replaced with a standard outlet this time and replaced the 20amp breaker with a GFCI breaker as this could have been disastrous, especially with me out of town.

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 19:38:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 at 5:37:26 AM UTC-5, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

You are all saying that the GFCI had a loose connection or had a heavy load on it. I had a Legrand Brand (Menards) GFCI installed in an outside rated box with proper cover and all gaskets in place. It was about 5 years old. It's on the end of the line of a 20amp breaker and was rated at 20 amps, so no continuing connections to pull load. It also had nothing plugged into it. At time of removal, the wire lugs were very tight and showed no signs of heat damage. However, while away for a week of work on 6/1/20, the GFCI device burnt up. I noticed it upon return when the breaker in that outbuild was tripped, Upon resetting it, it immediately tripped again. After inspection, I found the outside water tight box (PVC?) holding this GFCI device was distorted. The outlet also had some soot under the cover and and around the door gasket. Disassembly proved that this was truly a failure of the device internally. It was not caused by a "Loose" connection to or out of the device. The
repair required replacement of the entire box and outlet. None of the wiring was replaced as it was not damage and looked it's age (5yrs old). I'm just throwing this out there to say that they can fail internally. It does not have to be a loose connection or overload/high current situation for them to fail. I replaced with a standard outlet this time and replaced the 20amp breaker with a GFCI breaker as this could have been disastrous, especially with me out of town.

Sounds like why NFPA started requiring AFCI protected circuits ...
almost 20 years ago.

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 10:38:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 at 5:37:26 AM UTC-5, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

You are all saying that the GFCI had a loose connection or had a heavy load on it. I had a Legrand Brand (Menards) GFCI installed in an outside rated box with proper cover and all gaskets in place. It was about 5 years old. It's on the end of the line of a 20amp breaker and was rated at 20 amps, so no continuing connections to pull load. It also had nothing plugged into it. At time of removal, the wire lugs were very tight and showed no signs of heat damage. However, while away for a week of work on 6/1/20, the GFCI device burnt up. I noticed it upon return when the breaker in that outbuild was tripped, Upon resetting it, it immediately tripped again. After inspection, I found the outside water tight box (PVC?) holding this GFCI device was distorted. The outlet also had some soot under the cover and and around the door gasket. Disassembly proved that this was truly a failure of the device internally. It was not caused by a "Loose" connection to or out of the device. The repair required replacement of the entire box and outlet. None of the wiring was replaced as it was not damage and looked it's age (5yrs old). I'm just throwing this out there to say that they can fail internally. It does not have to be a loose connection or overload/high current situation for them to fail. I replaced with a standard outlet this time and replaced the 20amp breaker with a GFCI breaker as this could have been disastrous, especially with me out of town.

I wonder what kind of failure analysis has been done with GFCI? Might be a
good idea if they had a thermal fuse like heating appliances.