My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

Now the question is, did that GFCI preclude the circuit breaker's ability to do its job?

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 04:17:15 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Now the question is, did that GFCI preclude the circuit breaker's ability to do its job?
No. It was NOT a short. In most cases it is a loose, intermittenr, or
high resistance connection that causes a fire - not a short.

In order for this to happen there MUST be a load of some sort on the
circuit. A normal breaker will not respond to an "arc fault" of this
type, and nor will a CFCI - an "arc fault detector" breaker is
designed to trip under those conditions. Not sure how effective they
are in real life - or if they are more likely to false trigger.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 04:17:15 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Now the question is, did that GFCI preclude the circuit breaker's ability
to do its job?
No. It was NOT a short. In most cases it is a loose, intermittenr, or
high resistance connection that causes a fire - not a short.

In order for this to happen there MUST be a load of some sort on the
circuit. A normal breaker will not respond to an "arc fault" of this
type, and nor will a CFCI - an "arc fault detector" breaker is
designed to trip under those conditions. Not sure how effective they
are in real life - or if they are more likely to false trigger.

I can add some comments about your last point from experience over the last
12 years. I've had circuit-breaker AFCIs on several house circuits during
that time and have had maybe 4-6 nuisance trips overall. A couple happened
when we switched ceiling fan speeds using the fan's wall-box control. The
others happened unexpectedly for no obvious reason.

Frankly, I expected more nuisance trips based upon what I had been hearing
and reading when the installation was new since, at that time, I was working
with one of the NEC code panels and there was a lot of discussion about it.
As I understand it, AFCIs react to an electrical arc by sensing the radio
frequencies that the arc generates. But opening/closing a switch can
generate such an arc (usually very small) and the same thing can happen when
an incandescent lamp filament fails or electric motors with brushes or
inertia switches power up.

Tomsic

On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 07:45:46 -0400, "Tomsic" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 04:17:15 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Now the question is, did that GFCI preclude the circuit breaker's ability
to do its job?
No. It was NOT a short. In most cases it is a loose, intermittenr, or
high resistance connection that causes a fire - not a short.

In order for this to happen there MUST be a load of some sort on the
circuit. A normal breaker will not respond to an "arc fault" of this
type, and nor will a CFCI - an "arc fault detector" breaker is
designed to trip under those conditions. Not sure how effective they
are in real life - or if they are more likely to false trigger.

I can add some comments about your last point from experience over the last
12 years. I've had circuit-breaker AFCIs on several house circuits during
that time and have had maybe 4-6 nuisance trips overall. A couple happened
when we switched ceiling fan speeds using the fan's wall-box control. The
others happened unexpectedly for no obvious reason.

Frankly, I expected more nuisance trips based upon what I had been hearing
and reading when the installation was new since, at that time, I was working
with one of the NEC code panels and there was a lot of discussion about it.
As I understand it, AFCIs react to an electrical arc by sensing the radio
frequencies that the arc generates. But opening/closing a switch can
generate such an arc (usually very small) and the same thing can happen when
an incandescent lamp filament fails or electric motors with brushes or
inertia switches power up.

Tomsic

Or the brushes "bounce" on ANY brush motor. I've heard of problems
running vacuum cleaners, older sewing machines, handheld mixers, and
food processors, among other devices. Anything that can produce
multiple sparks. Even unplugging a lamp while it is turned on - if
you don't pull the plug quickly - can trip an AFCI

"Tomsic" wrote in message ...

stuff snipped

Frankly, I expected more nuisance trips based upon what I had been hearing
and reading when the installation was new since, at that time, I was
working
with one of the NEC code panels and there was a lot of discussion about
it.

I agree that the "scuttlebutt" was not favorable regarding nuisance trips.
I was thinking about installing them, too, a while back but after all the
bad luck I had with the first CFL's to hit the market, I decided to wait out
being a pioneer for arc fault technology.

As I understand it, AFCIs react to an electrical arc by sensing the radio
frequencies that the arc generates.

That's fascinating. I just learned that the local water authority monitors
the rebar in their 60"+ concrete water mains acoustically. When one of the
reinforcing bars snaps, it sends out a unique sound that is monitored by a
series of microphones throughout the system and they then replace the pipe
section.

The only problem is that the most recent break occurred where there was no
rebar in one of the large joints. Who would have thunk of monitoring the RF
emissions of an arc or the sound of snapping rebar? As for the AFCI, it
makes sense because the wire leading to the arc must act as a fairly
efficient antenna. I always wondered how an AFCI could differentiate
between normal current draw and the creation of a dangerous arc. Does that
mean you can't use an arc welder on an AFCI protected circuit?

But opening/closing a switch can
generate such an arc (usually very small) and the same thing can happen
when
an incandescent lamp filament fails or electric motors with brushes or
inertia switches power up.

I can live with a breaker popping when a light bulb pops. I've had normal
breakers do that. I assume that like GFCIs (Clare used the term CFCI - is
there a difference?) as they get more feedback from users, they tweak the
design to handle those false triggers better. My first GFCI used to trip
like crazy for no reason. The most recently bought ones hardly ever trip.
I got so suspicious I even bought a GFCI plug-in tester to make sure they
were working. (They were.)

Somewhere out there there's information about nuisance trips and whether
they were over-hyped to begin with or whether the earlier units just
couldn't detect them as well as the newer units do. Our resident sparkies
should know.

As for AFCI's, my understanding (from way back when) is that they were
recommended for bedrooms and bathrooms where a high current device like a
space heater or a hair dryer could create an arc big enough to start a fire
very quickly. I can attest that a space heater plugged in only partially
can create enough heat to melt plastic. DAMHIKT. (-:

I once took apart a six-outlet extender that was getting warm to discover
the copper cross bars were press-fit and had become loose and were starting
to blacken at the place they were joined. I also noticed that these old
press-fit six way outlet extenders had two copper bladed plugs and were
electrically cross-connected. The one I bought to replace the burned-up one
had only one live plug. The other was plastic and just acted as a
stabilizer. I suppose that's to prevent someone from plugging the extender
into an extension cord and not an outlet. That would make the second plug
electrically live and exposed.

There's really no need I can see to cross-connect the two plugs to the six
outlets. It could be set up so that each plug feeds only three of the six
outlets and then you could plug it into an extension cord without creating
an electrocution hazard. Maybe it was an economy thing. After all, not
putting a second copper plugs has to be cheaper if you're making 10,000 of
these things. The best design would be to use two isolated plugs because
that way something like a remotely switched lamp outlet would still work as
it should.

--
Bobby G.

"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:41:08 -0400, "Tomsic" wrote:


"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?


*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:12:30 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?


*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.


That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.

me

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 08:57:54 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:41:08 -0400, "Tomsic" wrote:


"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?
If you have a lot of spare cash.
They are put in bedroom circuits because that is where people are most
likely to be asleep and unaware if a fire were to start there.

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 22:02:37 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 08:57:54 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:41:08 -0400, "Tomsic" wrote:


"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?
If you have a lot of spare cash.
They are put in bedroom circuits because that is where people are most
likely to be asleep and unaware if a fire were to start there.

Oh. Maybe I should just do my bedroom,






and let any weekend visitors fend for themselves. (I do have smoke
alarms.)

On 6/26/2013 10:02 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 08:57:54 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:41:08 -0400, "Tomsic" wrote:

"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic
So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?
If you have a lot of spare cash.
They are put in bedroom circuits because that is where people are most
likely to be asleep and unaware if a fire were to start there.

AFCI protection is currently required in practically all habitable rooms

On 6/26/2013 5:50 AM, RBM wrote:
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

I believe arc fault circuit breakers could prevent fires in homes with
aluminum Romex. I've heard sizzling inside many junction boxes in many
homes wired with aluminum Romex. O_o

TDD

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 09:48:35 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/26/2013 5:50 AM, RBM wrote:
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

I believe arc fault circuit breakers could prevent fires in homes with
aluminum Romex. I've heard sizzling inside many junction boxes in many
homes wired with aluminum Romex. O_o

TDD
Then they were not wired properly. Mine is over 40 years old and not a
single wiring problem - but I AM replacing all switches and outlets
with new COALR devices. Surprisingly, there is no such thing as a
COALR GFCI device available in Canada (according to my electrical
supplier) Need to use GFCI breakers

On 6/26/2013 9:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 09:48:35 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/26/2013 5:50 AM, RBM wrote:
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

I believe arc fault circuit breakers could prevent fires in homes with
aluminum Romex. I've heard sizzling inside many junction boxes in many
homes wired with aluminum Romex. O_o

TDD
Then they were not wired properly. Mine is over 40 years old and not a
single wiring problem - but I AM replacing all switches and outlets
with new COALR devices. Surprisingly, there is no such thing as a
COALR GFCI device available in Canada (according to my electrical
supplier) Need to use GFCI breakers


The homes I speak of passes inspection at the time using the guidelines
at the time. Aluminum wiring connections will degrade over time due to
the thermal and metallurgical properties of the wire. I've seen
connections fail even when antioxidant compound was used. O_o

TDD

On 6/27/2013 1:43 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 6/26/2013 9:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 09:48:35 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/26/2013 5:50 AM, RBM wrote:
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide
ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented
this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

I believe arc fault circuit breakers could prevent fires in homes with
aluminum Romex. I've heard sizzling inside many junction boxes in many
homes wired with aluminum Romex. O_o

TDD
Then they were not wired properly. Mine is over 40 years old and not a
single wiring problem - but I AM replacing all switches and outlets
with new COALR devices. Surprisingly, there is no such thing as a
COALR GFCI device available in Canada (according to my electrical
supplier) Need to use GFCI breakers


The homes I speak of passes inspection at the time using the
guidelines at the time. Aluminum wiring connections will degrade over
time due to the thermal and metallurgical properties of the wire. I've
seen connections fail even when antioxidant compound was used. O_o

TDD
The aluminum simply relaxes over time and the connections start arcing.
In areas near salt water, oxidation seemed to rapidly deteriorate the
connections

On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 00:43:06 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/26/2013 9:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 09:48:35 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/26/2013 5:50 AM, RBM wrote:
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

I believe arc fault circuit breakers could prevent fires in homes with
aluminum Romex. I've heard sizzling inside many junction boxes in many
homes wired with aluminum Romex. O_o

TDD
Then they were not wired properly. Mine is over 40 years old and not a
single wiring problem - but I AM replacing all switches and outlets
with new COALR devices. Surprisingly, there is no such thing as a
COALR GFCI device available in Canada (according to my electrical
supplier) Need to use GFCI breakers


The homes I speak of passes inspection at the time using the guidelines
at the time. Aluminum wiring connections will degrade over time due to
the thermal and metallurgical properties of the wire. I've seen
connections fail even when antioxidant compound was used. O_o

TDD
Just saying - over 40 years with "series 2" aluminum wiring and
standard devices (not CoAlr or the previous version of "aluminum
compatible" )and not a single sign of corrosion, degradation, or any
other problems when replacing all the devices with CoAlr to satisfy
insurance inspection. Never a single problem other than 2 outlets that
lost contact tension and were replaced about 7? years ago.

On 06/26/2013 10:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 09:48:35 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/26/2013 5:50 AM, RBM wrote:
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

I believe arc fault circuit breakers could prevent fires in homes with
aluminum Romex. I've heard sizzling inside many junction boxes in many
homes wired with aluminum Romex. O_o

TDD
Then they were not wired properly. Mine is over 40 years old and not a
single wiring problem - but I AM replacing all switches and outlets
with new COALR devices. Surprisingly, there is no such thing as a
COALR GFCI device available in Canada (according to my electrical
supplier) Need to use GFCI breakers


Can you use pigtails in Canada? (e.g. purple wire nuts with copper
pigtails) that could be another option if for whatever reason it is
inconvenient to use the breakers)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Tue, 09 Jul 2013 09:23:12 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 06/26/2013 10:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 09:48:35 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/26/2013 5:50 AM, RBM wrote:
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

I believe arc fault circuit breakers could prevent fires in homes with
aluminum Romex. I've heard sizzling inside many junction boxes in many
homes wired with aluminum Romex. O_o

TDD
Then they were not wired properly. Mine is over 40 years old and not a
single wiring problem - but I AM replacing all switches and outlets
with new COALR devices. Surprisingly, there is no such thing as a
COALR GFCI device available in Canada (according to my electrical
supplier) Need to use GFCI breakers


Can you use pigtails in Canada? (e.g. purple wire nuts with copper
pigtails) that could be another option if for whatever reason it is
inconvenient to use the breakers)

nate
You CAN use pigtails - with either the expensive crimp-on system or
the bi-metal wire nuts - but the wire nut pigtails in particular are
actually more problematic than a non-CoAlr device directly on the
aluminum wire.(assuming second generation aluminum)

Box fill also quickly becomes a problem (which contributes to the
problems with nutted pigtails)

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?


*I surmise that the GFI receptacle had loose connections and that there was
a considerable load on the wiring. That would cause the arcing which would
ignite any combustible materials in direct contact or in very close
proximity.

As RBM pointed out the GFI is not designed for this type of protection, but
an arc fault circuit breaker is.

Does this house have smoke detectors?

On 6/26/2013 5:28 AM, John Grabowski wrote:

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?


*I surmise that the GFI receptacle had loose connections and that there
was a considerable load on the wiring. That would cause the arcing which
would ignite any combustible materials in direct contact or in very
close proximity.

And if that is what happened the GFCI wasn't any more responsible for
the fire than if the same thing happened with an ordinary receptacle.

I wonder how much of the GFCI was left for the fire marshal to determine
what happened.


As RBM pointed out the GFI is not designed for this type of protection,
but an arc fault circuit breaker is.

Does this house have smoke detectors?

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:33:57 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 6/26/2013 5:28 AM, John Grabowski wrote:

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?


*I surmise that the GFI receptacle had loose connections and that there
was a considerable load on the wiring. That would cause the arcing which
would ignite any combustible materials in direct contact or in very
close proximity.

And if that is what happened the GFCI wasn't any more responsible for
the fire than if the same thing happened with an ordinary receptacle.

I wonder how much of the GFCI was left for the fire marshal to determine
what happened.

It was there. I saw it - together with his written report hanging
from it. I saw it too.

me



As RBM pointed out the GFI is not designed for this type of protection,
but an arc fault circuit breaker is.

Does this house have smoke detectors?

On 6/26/2013 8:33 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 6/26/2013 5:28 AM, John Grabowski wrote:

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?


*I surmise that the GFI receptacle had loose connections and that there
was a considerable load on the wiring. That would cause the arcing which
would ignite any combustible materials in direct contact or in very
close proximity.

And if that is what happened the GFCI wasn't any more responsible for
the fire than if the same thing happened with an ordinary receptacle.

I wonder how much of the GFCI was left for the fire marshal to determine
what happened.


As RBM pointed out the GFI is not designed for this type of protection,
but an arc fault circuit breaker is.

Does this house have smoke detectors?


Yep, the four legged type that barks. ^_^

TDD

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:28:10 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?


*I surmise that the GFI receptacle had loose connections and that there was
a considerable load on the wiring. That would cause the arcing which would
ignite any combustible materials in direct contact or in very close
proximity.

As RBM pointed out the GFI is not designed for this type of protection, but
an arc fault circuit breaker is.

Does this house have smoke detectors?

Yes. Though he never mentioned that one went off. Seems like a
detector should have detected all that smoke. Maybe he had
detector(s) in the house proper, but not on the porch enclosure on the
rear. The smoke did not get into the house until he actually opened
from the inside of the house one of the sliders from the house onto
the porch, at which time the sliding doors actually exploded and blew
into the house. At that point the black smoke inundated the house
proper. So I'll bet he had no detector on the porch. I'll have to
ask. Now that I think about that, I don't either. My enclosed sun
porch was built after the house.
As soon as I can, I am going to add one to my porch for sure.

me

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:28:10 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?


*I surmise that the GFI receptacle had loose connections and that there was
a considerable load on the wiring. That would cause the arcing which would
ignite any combustible materials in direct contact or in very close
proximity.

As RBM pointed out the GFI is not designed for this type of protection, but
an arc fault circuit breaker is.

Does this house have smoke detectors?
It had at least one four legged one.

On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 6:37:26 AM UTC-4, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed

porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch

rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the

rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,

a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and

got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved

their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The

fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot

throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.



That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!

I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI

wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't

trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just

continued until it started the fire!



All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the

protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these

days.



Anyone have an opinion about this?



Thanks



me

Now I'm really going to burst your bubble.

You know all those years you were sleeping well because you thought your GFCI's were protecting you against a short and/or a fire? Well, you shouldn't have been sleeping that well because a GFCI won't do either.

You really should read up on how GFCI's work and what they do and don't protect against so that you are not living under incorrect assumptions.

On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 3:37:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed

porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch

rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the

rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,

a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and

got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved

their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The

fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot

throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.



That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!

I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI

wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't

trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just

continued until it started the fire!



All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the

protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these

days.



Anyone have an opinion about this?



Thanks



me

1. Did the fire start inside the electrical box of the GFCI or a circuit coming or leaving it?
2. Was the electrical box metal or plastic and was it in a wet location and if so was it an outdoor box?
3. Was the line connected to the box Romex or was it inside a conduit and if it was inside a conduit was it a EMT or rigid or PVC and was it in a wet location?

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:08:04 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 3:37:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed

porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch

rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the

rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,

a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and

got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved

their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The

fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot

throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.



That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!

I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI

wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't

trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just

continued until it started the fire!



All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the

protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these

days.



Anyone have an opinion about this?



Thanks



me

1. Did the fire start inside the electrical box of the GFCI or a circuit coming or leaving it?

I don't know

2. Was the electrical box metal or plastic and was it in a wet location and if so was it an outdoor box?

plastic box not in a wet location (was on the wall between the porch
addition and the roofed open deck behind it)

3. Was the line connected to the box Romex or was it inside a conduit and if it was inside a conduit was it a EMT or rigid or PVC and was it in a wet location?

I don't know. I'll bet Romex, not in conduit.

Your questions are all germane to the issue and certainly should be
answered.
Thanks for response.
me

wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

Hi,
My first impression, where is fire/smoke detector?
Poor install(stab wiring?) cheap GFCI product?
Overloaded circuit? Thank the dog, it could be worse.

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 06:37:26 -0400, wrote:

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me
GFI devices do NOT protect either the wiring or the house. They are
not designed or intended to. They are to protect YOU and others from
shock in the event of a malfunctioning device (power leakage to case).

An "arc fault" detector MAY have prevented the fire - as that is what
they are designed to do. How effective they are, I don't know.

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 21:56:19 -0400, wrote:

GFI devices do NOT protect either the wiring or the house. They are
not designed or intended to. They are to protect YOU and others from
shock in the event of a malfunctioning device (power leakage to case).

You finally made the right point. I didnt' see it until now.


An "arc fault" detector MAY have prevented the fire - as that is what
they are designed to do. How effective they are, I don't know.

micky wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 21:56:19 -0400, wrote:

GFI devices do NOT protect either the wiring or the house. They are
not designed or intended to. They are to protect YOU and others from
shock in the event of a malfunctioning device (power leakage to case).

You finally made the right point. I didnt' see it until now.


An "arc fault" detector MAY have prevented the fire - as that is what
they are designed to do. How effective they are, I don't know.

Hi,
Arc and overheating can occur on any loose connection wherever they maybe.

wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

A gfi has a circuit. Circuits can catch fire. I saw one circuit with a MOV,
which can catch fire. They should have fusing on the circuits, which I
doubt many have. The real question is the quality of the box, but if the
front flares up, what are you going to do.

Greg

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 06:37:26 -0400, wrote:

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.


I may never sleep again.

Girl Friend Interruptus will definitely cause a fire.

What does GFCI do, then?
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"Guv Bob" wrote in message m...
Girl Friend Interruptus will definitely cause a fire.

http://Cash4Visits.com/ref.php?refId=267381

I have a similar issue: A GFCI outlet in the apartment we rent was pouring smoke, white smoke that smelled like ozone. The wall behind the outlet was hot to the touch.
My GF only found out about it when stopping by the apartment during a break from work. Luckily she works in a building just next door to our apartment building. She smelled a strange smell, the lights were off, and there was white smoke pouring out of the GFCI outlet in the kitchen.
She called the fire department, who checked the wall, and also felt the wall panel was still warm to the touch.
The lights were off in the apartment at the time. (we usually turn them off) and there has been NOTHING plugged into the GFCI plug for months.
So ,yeah, we are not staying there any more.

Any ideas on how something like this starts?

Some background: It's a 139 year old historic building that last had a interior structural rehab in the 1980s. Mixed retail and living units across three floors and a basement.

Ideas?