My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

Now the question is, did that GFCI preclude the circuit breaker's ability to do its job?

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?


*I surmise that the GFI receptacle had loose connections and that there was
a considerable load on the wiring. That would cause the arcing which would
ignite any combustible materials in direct contact or in very close
proximity.

As RBM pointed out the GFI is not designed for this type of protection, but
an arc fault circuit breaker is.

Does this house have smoke detectors?

"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:41:08 -0400, "Tomsic" wrote:


"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?

On 6/26/2013 5:28 AM, John Grabowski wrote:

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?


*I surmise that the GFI receptacle had loose connections and that there
was a considerable load on the wiring. That would cause the arcing which
would ignite any combustible materials in direct contact or in very
close proximity.

And if that is what happened the GFCI wasn't any more responsible for
the fire than if the same thing happened with an ordinary receptacle.

I wonder how much of the GFCI was left for the fire marshal to determine
what happened.


As RBM pointed out the GFI is not designed for this type of protection,
but an arc fault circuit breaker is.

Does this house have smoke detectors?

On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 6:37:26 AM UTC-4, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed

porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch

rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the

rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,

a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and

got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved

their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The

fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot

throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.



That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!

I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI

wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't

trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just

continued until it started the fire!



All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the

protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these

days.



Anyone have an opinion about this?



Thanks



me

Now I'm really going to burst your bubble.

You know all those years you were sleeping well because you thought your GFCI's were protecting you against a short and/or a fire? Well, you shouldn't have been sleeping that well because a GFCI won't do either.

You really should read up on how GFCI's work and what they do and don't protect against so that you are not living under incorrect assumptions.

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:28:10 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?


*I surmise that the GFI receptacle had loose connections and that there was
a considerable load on the wiring. That would cause the arcing which would
ignite any combustible materials in direct contact or in very close
proximity.

As RBM pointed out the GFI is not designed for this type of protection, but
an arc fault circuit breaker is.

Does this house have smoke detectors?

Yes. Though he never mentioned that one went off. Seems like a
detector should have detected all that smoke. Maybe he had
detector(s) in the house proper, but not on the porch enclosure on the
rear. The smoke did not get into the house until he actually opened
from the inside of the house one of the sliders from the house onto
the porch, at which time the sliding doors actually exploded and blew
into the house. At that point the black smoke inundated the house
proper. So I'll bet he had no detector on the porch. I'll have to
ask. Now that I think about that, I don't either. My enclosed sun
porch was built after the house.
As soon as I can, I am going to add one to my porch for sure.

me

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:33:57 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 6/26/2013 5:28 AM, John Grabowski wrote:

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?


*I surmise that the GFI receptacle had loose connections and that there
was a considerable load on the wiring. That would cause the arcing which
would ignite any combustible materials in direct contact or in very
close proximity.

And if that is what happened the GFCI wasn't any more responsible for
the fire than if the same thing happened with an ordinary receptacle.

I wonder how much of the GFCI was left for the fire marshal to determine
what happened.

It was there. I saw it - together with his written report hanging
from it. I saw it too.

me



As RBM pointed out the GFI is not designed for this type of protection,
but an arc fault circuit breaker is.

Does this house have smoke detectors?

On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 3:37:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed

porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch

rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the

rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,

a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and

got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved

their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The

fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot

throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.



That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!

I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI

wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't

trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just

continued until it started the fire!



All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the

protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these

days.



Anyone have an opinion about this?



Thanks



me

1. Did the fire start inside the electrical box of the GFCI or a circuit coming or leaving it?
2. Was the electrical box metal or plastic and was it in a wet location and if so was it an outdoor box?
3. Was the line connected to the box Romex or was it inside a conduit and if it was inside a conduit was it a EMT or rigid or PVC and was it in a wet location?

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?


*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.

On 6/26/2013 8:33 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 6/26/2013 5:28 AM, John Grabowski wrote:

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?


*I surmise that the GFI receptacle had loose connections and that there
was a considerable load on the wiring. That would cause the arcing which
would ignite any combustible materials in direct contact or in very
close proximity.

And if that is what happened the GFCI wasn't any more responsible for
the fire than if the same thing happened with an ordinary receptacle.

I wonder how much of the GFCI was left for the fire marshal to determine
what happened.


As RBM pointed out the GFI is not designed for this type of protection,
but an arc fault circuit breaker is.

Does this house have smoke detectors?


Yep, the four legged type that barks. ^_^

TDD

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:12:30 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?


*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.


That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.

me

On 6/26/2013 5:50 AM, RBM wrote:
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

I believe arc fault circuit breakers could prevent fires in homes with
aluminum Romex. I've heard sizzling inside many junction boxes in many
homes wired with aluminum Romex. O_o

TDD

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:08:04 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 3:37:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed

porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch

rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the

rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,

a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and

got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved

their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The

fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot

throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.



That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!

I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI

wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't

trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just

continued until it started the fire!



All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the

protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these

days.



Anyone have an opinion about this?



Thanks



me

1. Did the fire start inside the electrical box of the GFCI or a circuit coming or leaving it?

I don't know

2. Was the electrical box metal or plastic and was it in a wet location and if so was it an outdoor box?

plastic box not in a wet location (was on the wall between the porch
addition and the roofed open deck behind it)

3. Was the line connected to the box Romex or was it inside a conduit and if it was inside a conduit was it a EMT or rigid or PVC and was it in a wet location?

I don't know. I'll bet Romex, not in conduit.

Your questions are all germane to the issue and certainly should be
answered.
Thanks for response.
me

wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

Hi,
My first impression, where is fire/smoke detector?
Poor install(stab wiring?) cheap GFCI product?
Overloaded circuit? Thank the dog, it could be worse.

On 6/26/2013 6:01 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 6/26/2013 8:47 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:12:30 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an
enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though.
The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well
totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was
the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well
these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide
ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have
prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit
breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good
summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing
that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken
wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?


*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.


That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.

me

You can likely add them one way or another. If circuits are multiwire
branch circuits with a common neutral that is a problem.

I don't advise trying to use current technology on older wiring systems.
Aside from Edison circuits, you find anomalies caused by mixed neutrals
and the like. You certainly could test each circuit with an AFCI, and if
it holds, you're good to go

On 6/26/2013 8:47 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:12:30 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?


*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.


That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.

me

You can likely add them one way or another. If circuits are multiwire
branch circuits with a common neutral that is a problem.

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 17:41:18 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 6/26/2013 6:01 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 6/26/2013 8:47 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:12:30 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an
enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though.
The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well
totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was
the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well
these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide
ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have
prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit
breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good
summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing
that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken
wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?


*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.


That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.

me

You can likely add them one way or another. If circuits are multiwire
branch circuits with a common neutral that is a problem.

I don't advise trying to use current technology on older wiring systems.
Aside from Edison circuits,

Even after looking it up last year, I never did understand what an
Edison circuit is or how it's different from any other circuit.

you find anomalies caused by mixed neutrals
and the like. You certainly could test each circuit with an AFCI, and if
it holds, you're good to go

I know approximately what a mixed neutral is. I don't think my home
described below is likely to have the anomalies you speak of.

My house is from 1979, has quite a bit of empty space in the breaker
box, and there has only been one change, one added circuit, to the
attic to power the attic ceiling light (with receptacle), the roof
fan, and the outdooor floodlight. Along the way it goes by the far
wall of the laundry room where it powers a ceiling light and 5 double
receptacles (no more than 2 sockets are used at any one time, a lamp
and one power tool or another.) The circuit breaker has never
tripped.

Do you think it's likely I'll have problems changing to AFCI?

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 06:37:26 -0400, wrote:

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me
GFI devices do NOT protect either the wiring or the house. They are
not designed or intended to. They are to protect YOU and others from
shock in the event of a malfunctioning device (power leakage to case).

An "arc fault" detector MAY have prevented the fire - as that is what
they are designed to do. How effective they are, I don't know.

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 04:17:15 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Now the question is, did that GFCI preclude the circuit breaker's ability to do its job?
No. It was NOT a short. In most cases it is a loose, intermittenr, or
high resistance connection that causes a fire - not a short.

In order for this to happen there MUST be a load of some sort on the
circuit. A normal breaker will not respond to an "arc fault" of this
type, and nor will a CFCI - an "arc fault detector" breaker is
designed to trip under those conditions. Not sure how effective they
are in real life - or if they are more likely to false trigger.

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:28:10 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?


*I surmise that the GFI receptacle had loose connections and that there was
a considerable load on the wiring. That would cause the arcing which would
ignite any combustible materials in direct contact or in very close
proximity.

As RBM pointed out the GFI is not designed for this type of protection, but
an arc fault circuit breaker is.

Does this house have smoke detectors?
It had at least one four legged one.

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 08:57:54 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:41:08 -0400, "Tomsic" wrote:


"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?
If you have a lot of spare cash.
They are put in bedroom circuits because that is where people are most
likely to be asleep and unaware if a fire were to start there.

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:47:35 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:12:30 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?


*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.


That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.

me
So you live in a "pretty new" house. Almost 30 years older than mine
- which is also a "relatively new" house.

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 09:48:35 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/26/2013 5:50 AM, RBM wrote:
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

I believe arc fault circuit breakers could prevent fires in homes with
aluminum Romex. I've heard sizzling inside many junction boxes in many
homes wired with aluminum Romex. O_o

TDD
Then they were not wired properly. Mine is over 40 years old and not a
single wiring problem - but I AM replacing all switches and outlets
with new COALR devices. Surprisingly, there is no such thing as a
COALR GFCI device available in Canada (according to my electrical
supplier) Need to use GFCI breakers

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 22:09:37 -0400, wrote:


That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.

me
So you live in a "pretty new" house. Almost 30 years older than mine
- which is also a "relatively new" house.

I know how you feel. My house was built in '79 and I think it's
pretty new.

Old is 1930.,

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 22:02:37 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 08:57:54 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:41:08 -0400, "Tomsic" wrote:


"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker


Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic

So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?
If you have a lot of spare cash.
They are put in bedroom circuits because that is where people are most
likely to be asleep and unaware if a fire were to start there.

Oh. Maybe I should just do my bedroom,






and let any weekend visitors fend for themselves. (I do have smoke
alarms.)

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 21:56:19 -0400, wrote:

GFI devices do NOT protect either the wiring or the house. They are
not designed or intended to. They are to protect YOU and others from
shock in the event of a malfunctioning device (power leakage to case).

You finally made the right point. I didnt' see it until now.


An "arc fault" detector MAY have prevented the fire - as that is what
they are designed to do. How effective they are, I don't know.

On 6/26/2013 9:39 PM, micky wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 17:41:18 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 6/26/2013 6:01 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 6/26/2013 8:47 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:12:30 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an
enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though.
The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well
totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was
the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well
these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide
ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have
prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit
breaker

Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good
summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing
that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken
wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic
So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?

*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.

That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.

me
You can likely add them one way or another. If circuits are multiwire
branch circuits with a common neutral that is a problem.

I don't advise trying to use current technology on older wiring systems.
Aside from Edison circuits,
Even after looking it up last year, I never did understand what an
Edison circuit is or how it's different from any other circuit.

you find anomalies caused by mixed neutrals
and the like. You certainly could test each circuit with an AFCI, and if
it holds, you're good to go
I know approximately what a mixed neutral is. I don't think my home
described below is likely to have the anomalies you speak of.

My house is from 1979, has quite a bit of empty space in the breaker
box, and there has only been one change, one added circuit, to the
attic to power the attic ceiling light (with receptacle), the roof
fan, and the outdooor floodlight. Along the way it goes by the far
wall of the laundry room where it powers a ceiling light and 5 double
receptacles (no more than 2 sockets are used at any one time, a lamp
and one power tool or another.) The circuit breaker has never
tripped.

Do you think it's likely I'll have problems changing to AFCI?
I think you'd be OK, it's houses that predate the 50's where I find all
manner of rube wiring. In your case the only probable issue would be 3
wire circuits, which are two circuits which share a common neutral. AFCI
breakers can't be connected to these circuits. If you open your panel
and find any cables that have a red, black, and white wire, you won't be
able to protect them with an AFCI.

On 6/26/2013 10:09 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:47:35 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:12:30 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic
So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?

*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.

That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.

me
So you live in a "pretty new" house. Almost 30 years older than mine
- which is also a "relatively new" house.
Your house was built in 2028?

On 6/26/2013 10:02 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 08:57:54 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 07:41:08 -0400, "Tomsic" wrote:

"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken wires are a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic
So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?
If you have a lot of spare cash.
They are put in bedroom circuits because that is where people are most
likely to be asleep and unaware if a fire were to start there.

AFCI protection is currently required in practically all habitable rooms

micky wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 21:56:19 -0400, wrote:

GFI devices do NOT protect either the wiring or the house. They are
not designed or intended to. They are to protect YOU and others from
shock in the event of a malfunctioning device (power leakage to case).

You finally made the right point. I didnt' see it until now.


An "arc fault" detector MAY have prevented the fire - as that is what
they are designed to do. How effective they are, I don't know.

Hi,
Arc and overheating can occur on any loose connection wherever they maybe.

On 6/26/2013 9:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 09:48:35 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/26/2013 5:50 AM, RBM wrote:
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

I believe arc fault circuit breakers could prevent fires in homes with
aluminum Romex. I've heard sizzling inside many junction boxes in many
homes wired with aluminum Romex. O_o

TDD
Then they were not wired properly. Mine is over 40 years old and not a
single wiring problem - but I AM replacing all switches and outlets
with new COALR devices. Surprisingly, there is no such thing as a
COALR GFCI device available in Canada (according to my electrical
supplier) Need to use GFCI breakers


The homes I speak of passes inspection at the time using the guidelines
at the time. Aluminum wiring connections will degrade over time due to
the thermal and metallurgical properties of the wire. I've seen
connections fail even when antioxidant compound was used. O_o

TDD

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 23:10:26 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 6/26/2013 9:39 PM, micky wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 17:41:18 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 6/26/2013 6:01 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 6/26/2013 8:47 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:12:30 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an
enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though.
The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well
totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was
the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well
these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide
ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have
prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit
breaker

Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good
summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing
that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken
wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic
So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?

*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.

That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.

me
You can likely add them one way or another. If circuits are multiwire
branch circuits with a common neutral that is a problem.

I don't advise trying to use current technology on older wiring systems.
Aside from Edison circuits,
Even after looking it up last year, I never did understand what an
Edison circuit is or how it's different from any other circuit.

you find anomalies caused by mixed neutrals
and the like. You certainly could test each circuit with an AFCI, and if
it holds, you're good to go
I know approximately what a mixed neutral is. I don't think my home
described below is likely to have the anomalies you speak of.

My house is from 1979, has quite a bit of empty space in the breaker
box, and there has only been one change, one added circuit, to the
attic to power the attic ceiling light (with receptacle), the roof
fan, and the outdooor floodlight. Along the way it goes by the far
wall of the laundry room where it powers a ceiling light and 5 double
receptacles (no more than 2 sockets are used at any one time, a lamp
and one power tool or another.) The circuit breaker has never
tripped.

Do you think it's likely I'll have problems changing to AFCI?
I think you'd be OK, it's houses that predate the 50's where I find all
manner of rube wiring. In your case the only probable issue would be 3
wire circuits, which are two circuits which share a common neutral. AFCI
breakers can't be connected to these circuits. If you open your panel
and find any cables that have a red, black, and white wire, you won't be
able to protect them with an AFCI.

Thanks. I"m saving this for next summer, when I'll have time.

On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 02:19:19 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 23:10:26 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 6/26/2013 9:39 PM, micky wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 17:41:18 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 6/26/2013 6:01 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 6/26/2013 8:47 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:12:30 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an
enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though.
The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well
totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was
the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well
these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide
ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have
prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit
breaker

Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good
summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing
that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken
wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic
So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?

*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.

That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.

me
You can likely add them one way or another. If circuits are multiwire
branch circuits with a common neutral that is a problem.

I don't advise trying to use current technology on older wiring systems.
Aside from Edison circuits,
Even after looking it up last year, I never did understand what an
Edison circuit is or how it's different from any other circuit.

you find anomalies caused by mixed neutrals
and the like. You certainly could test each circuit with an AFCI, and if
it holds, you're good to go
I know approximately what a mixed neutral is. I don't think my home
described below is likely to have the anomalies you speak of.

My house is from 1979, has quite a bit of empty space in the breaker
box, and there has only been one change, one added circuit, to the
attic to power the attic ceiling light (with receptacle), the roof
fan, and the outdooor floodlight. Along the way it goes by the far
wall of the laundry room where it powers a ceiling light and 5 double
receptacles (no more than 2 sockets are used at any one time, a lamp
and one power tool or another.) The circuit breaker has never
tripped.

Do you think it's likely I'll have problems changing to AFCI?
I think you'd be OK, it's houses that predate the 50's where I find all
manner of rube wiring. In your case the only probable issue would be 3
wire circuits, which are two circuits which share a common neutral. AFCI
breakers can't be connected to these circuits. If you open your panel
and find any cables that have a red, black, and white wire, you won't be
able to protect them with an AFCI.

Thanks. I"m saving this for next summer, when I'll have time.

Aha! Now I understand what 'common ground' means. My former house
was built in 1980, and had common grounds (3-wire) circuits. I
understood how they worked, but I did not realize the danger involved.
Thanks

me

On 6/27/2013 6:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 02:19:19 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 23:10:26 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 6/26/2013 9:39 PM, micky wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 17:41:18 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 6/26/2013 6:01 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 6/26/2013 8:47 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:12:30 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an
enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though.
The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well
totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was
the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well
these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide
ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have
prevented this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit
breaker
Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National
Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in
certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good
summary
of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing
that
results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken
wires are
a
major cause of house fires.

Tomsic
So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water
faucets and wet places.

But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just
bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?
*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for
almost every circuit in a home.
That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.

me
You can likely add them one way or another. If circuits are multiwire
branch circuits with a common neutral that is a problem.

I don't advise trying to use current technology on older wiring systems.
Aside from Edison circuits,
Even after looking it up last year, I never did understand what an
Edison circuit is or how it's different from any other circuit.

you find anomalies caused by mixed neutrals
and the like. You certainly could test each circuit with an AFCI, and if
it holds, you're good to go
I know approximately what a mixed neutral is. I don't think my home
described below is likely to have the anomalies you speak of.

My house is from 1979, has quite a bit of empty space in the breaker
box, and there has only been one change, one added circuit, to the
attic to power the attic ceiling light (with receptacle), the roof
fan, and the outdooor floodlight. Along the way it goes by the far
wall of the laundry room where it powers a ceiling light and 5 double
receptacles (no more than 2 sockets are used at any one time, a lamp
and one power tool or another.) The circuit breaker has never
tripped.

Do you think it's likely I'll have problems changing to AFCI?
I think you'd be OK, it's houses that predate the 50's where I find all
manner of rube wiring. In your case the only probable issue would be 3
wire circuits, which are two circuits which share a common neutral. AFCI
breakers can't be connected to these circuits. If you open your panel
and find any cables that have a red, black, and white wire, you won't be
able to protect them with an AFCI.
Thanks. I"m saving this for next summer, when I'll have time.
Aha! Now I understand what 'common ground' means. My former house
was built in 1980, and had common grounds (3-wire) circuits. I
understood how they worked, but I did not realize the danger involved.
Thanks

me
These circuits, which are called multiwire branch circuits, three wire
circuits, or Edison circuits, are common "neutral" in that two hot legs,
of different potential share one neutral. Your typical residential
electric service, which is 120/240 is an Edison circuit. When installed
properly, they're no more dangerous than a two wire circuit

On 6/27/2013 1:43 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 6/26/2013 9:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 09:48:35 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/26/2013 5:50 AM, RBM wrote:
On 6/26/2013 6:37 AM, wrote:
My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an enclosed
porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch
rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the
rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,
a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and
got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved
their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though. The
fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot
throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well totaled.

That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!
I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was the GFI
wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't
trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just
continued until it started the fire!

All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the
protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well these
days.

Anyone have an opinion about this?

Thanks

me

GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide
ground
fault protection. The device that would have, should have prevented
this
is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit breaker

I believe arc fault circuit breakers could prevent fires in homes with
aluminum Romex. I've heard sizzling inside many junction boxes in many
homes wired with aluminum Romex. O_o

TDD
Then they were not wired properly. Mine is over 40 years old and not a
single wiring problem - but I AM replacing all switches and outlets
with new COALR devices. Surprisingly, there is no such thing as a
COALR GFCI device available in Canada (according to my electrical
supplier) Need to use GFCI breakers


The homes I speak of passes inspection at the time using the
guidelines at the time. Aluminum wiring connections will degrade over
time due to the thermal and metallurgical properties of the wire. I've
seen connections fail even when antioxidant compound was used. O_o

TDD
The aluminum simply relaxes over time and the connections start arcing.
In areas near salt water, oxidation seemed to rapidly deteriorate the
connections

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 04:17:15 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Now the question is, did that GFCI preclude the circuit breaker's ability
to do its job?
No. It was NOT a short. In most cases it is a loose, intermittenr, or
high resistance connection that causes a fire - not a short.

In order for this to happen there MUST be a load of some sort on the
circuit. A normal breaker will not respond to an "arc fault" of this
type, and nor will a CFCI - an "arc fault detector" breaker is
designed to trip under those conditions. Not sure how effective they
are in real life - or if they are more likely to false trigger.

I can add some comments about your last point from experience over the last
12 years. I've had circuit-breaker AFCIs on several house circuits during
that time and have had maybe 4-6 nuisance trips overall. A couple happened
when we switched ceiling fan speeds using the fan's wall-box control. The
others happened unexpectedly for no obvious reason.

Frankly, I expected more nuisance trips based upon what I had been hearing
and reading when the installation was new since, at that time, I was working
with one of the NEC code panels and there was a lot of discussion about it.
As I understand it, AFCIs react to an electrical arc by sensing the radio
frequencies that the arc generates. But opening/closing a switch can
generate such an arc (usually very small) and the same thing can happen when
an incandescent lamp filament fails or electric motors with brushes or
inertia switches power up.

Tomsic

On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 9:39:36 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 17:41:18 -0400, RBM wrote:



On 6/26/2013 6:01 PM, bud-- wrote:

On 6/26/2013 8:47 AM, wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:12:30 -0400, "John Grabowski"

wrote:





My neighbor just suffered a serious fire. His house had an

enclosed

porch at the rear, with an open, roofed desk connected to the porch

rear. He had several GFI breakers out there, including one on the

rear porch wall. Around one AM, when he and family were asleep,

a fire started at that GFI switch (according to Fire Marshall), and

got going pretty good before their dog started barking. That saved

their lives for sure. Almost killed their dog and cat, though.

The

fire badly burned the rear half of the house and sent black soot

throughout the rest of the house. The house is pretty well

totaled.



That's what happened. I have to wonder how a GFI could do that!

I heard the Fire Marshall actually say that what happened was

the GFI

wires arced, but that was not a 'short' to the GFI. Hence it didn't

trip. So, the GFI presented no protection did it! The arcing just

continued until it started the fire!



All this makes me think that my GFIs are not providing me the

protection I always thought they did. I'm not sleeping as well

these

days.



Anyone have an opinion about this?



Thanks



me



GFCI devices don't provide short circuit protection. They provide

ground

fault protection. The device that would have, should have

prevented this

is the circuit breaker, or better still, an arc fault circuit

breaker





Right, the usual GFCI does not against electrical arcs. The National

Electrical Code now requires arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) in

certain rooms of homes to reduce such fires. Wikipedia has a good

summary

of what GFCIs can and cannot do at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fau...it_interrupter Arcing

that

results from loose connection at outlets and switches or broken

wires are

a

major cause of house fires.



Tomsic



So it seems like the ground fault is especially useful near water

faucets and wet places.



But the arc fault seems especiallly useful everywhere, not just

bedrooms. Does that mean every circuit breaker should be arc fault?





*Article 210.12 in the 2011 National Electrical Code requires them for

almost every circuit in a home.





That's great for new houses. But my house was built back in 1998.



me



You can likely add them one way or another. If circuits are multiwire

branch circuits with a common neutral that is a problem.



I don't advise trying to use current technology on older wiring systems.

Aside from Edison circuits,



Even after looking it up last year, I never did understand what an

Edison circuit is or how it's different from any other circuit.



An Edison circuit allows you to save running one neutral wire.
Let's say I'm putting in new outlets, a long run from the
panel. There are enough outlets that I would need to pull
two romex cables, ie one hot, one neutral, one ground. Each
cable would serve half those outlets.

With an Edison, I can pull one romex with two hots, one neutral,
one ground. The one neutral is shared by the two groups of
outlets. I've traded two cables for one and reduced the
number of conductors by one, all of which save some $$.











you find anomalies caused by mixed neutrals

and the like. You certainly could test each circuit with an AFCI, and if

it holds, you're good to go



I know approximately what a mixed neutral is. I don't think my home

described below is likely to have the anomalies you speak of.



My house is from 1979, has quite a bit of empty space in the breaker

box, and there has only been one change, one added circuit, to the

attic to power the attic ceiling light (with receptacle), the roof

fan, and the outdooor floodlight. Along the way it goes by the far

wall of the laundry room where it powers a ceiling light and 5 double

receptacles (no more than 2 sockets are used at any one time, a lamp

and one power tool or another.) The circuit breaker has never

tripped.



Do you think it's likely I'll have problems changing to AFCI?