I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small unit. We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? Is my thinking skewed? Is it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!

On 5/22/2013 6:46 PM, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small unit. We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? Is my thinking skewed? Is it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!
Also think about an insulated cover for the pool.

Paul

On May 22, 9:46*pm, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). *I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small unit. *We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. *Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking skewed? *Is it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!

get a natural gas heater or propane if its available.

electric will be the slowest and most expensive and definetely get
pool cover.

if you live in the desert southwest get a solar pool heater.

the higher the BTUs the faster the warm up time, up to the limit of
your main electric service

On May 23, 2:46*am, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). *I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small unit. *We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. *Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking skewed? *Is it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!Ads not by this site

You would be better getting some sort of solar heater.

Running a swimming pool is always going to be expensive.
Gas would be far cheaper than electricity.
Electricity is the worst possible option.
If your pool is near the house you may be able to use the home
heating furnace if you have a wet system.
You need a good insulated pool cover. Ideally there should
be insulation between the pool and the ground too.

The economics of turning a pool heating off are very dodgy
as it takes days for the pool to reheat.
Reducing temperature may be an option.

Your incoming power supply may not be big enough in any event.
You may need a three phase supply.

On Wed, 22 May 2013 18:46:55 -0700 (PDT),
wrote in Re
Pool heat pump - How many BTUs?:

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? Is my thinking skewed? Is it worth the extra cost?

It is worth the extra cost. Go for it. You will be glad that you
did.

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:05:34 AM UTC-4, VinnyB wrote:
On Wed, 22 May 2013 18:46:55 -0700 (PDT),

wrote in Re

Pool heat pump - How many BTUs?:



Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? Is my thinking skewed? Is it worth the extra cost?



It is worth the extra cost. Go for it. You will be glad that you

did.


Thanks for the replies and thoughts, everyone. Let me try to reply to everyone in one post.

I live in South Florida, so it's fairly sunny here for most of the year and the nights are normally just as hot as the days.

No propane or natural gas here in my area.

I have neighbors who have solar systems and they told me to save my money. Once the temperature dips down below 75 or so, they don't generate enough heat for them. I also don't like having all that weight on my roof tiles. Just my preference on that one.

No home furnace - electric heat in the house.

A pool cover is definitely an option. I think all my neighbors have heaters, yet, strangely, none of them use a cover.

No, there is no insulation between the pool and the ground. It doesn't get that cold down here for that kind of thing, I would think.

On May 23, 8:44*am, wrote:
On Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:05:34 AM UTC-4, VinnyB wrote:
On Wed, 22 May 2013 18:46:55 -0700 (PDT),

wrote in Re

Pool heat pump - How many BTUs?:

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking skewed? *Is it worth the extra cost?

It is worth the extra cost. *Go for it. *You will be glad that you

did.

Thanks for the replies and thoughts, everyone. *Let me try to reply to everyone in one post.

I live in South Florida, so it's fairly sunny here for most of the year and the nights are normally just as hot as the days.

No propane or natural gas here in my area.

I have neighbors who have solar systems and they told me to save my money.. *Once the temperature dips down below 75 or so, they don't generate enough heat for them. *I also don't like having all that weight on my roof tiles. *Just my preference on that one.

No home furnace - electric heat in the house.

A pool cover is definitely an option. *I think all my neighbors have heaters, yet, strangely, none of them use a cover.

No, there is no insulation between the pool and the ground. *It doesn't get that cold down here for that kind of thing, I would think.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


First, the idea that the bigger heat pump is going to be less
expensive to use because it will be on for less time isn't
right. Yes, it will be on for less time, but it will also be
using proportionately more electricity than the smaller
unit while it's running. There isn't a free lunch here.
The real advantage of the larger one is that it will heat
the pool faster, so if it's not at temp and you want to raise
it, that will be possible faster. In the case of a pool heater,
it's better to be too large than too small, for sure.

Usually nat gas is going to be significantly less expensive than a
heat pump, but it depends on the relative cost of the
two fuels where you are. As others have said, for FL, I
would definitely be looking at solar. You need an array
roughly the size of the pool. Plus, if you do solar, you may
not need to screw around with a cover. When you're
paying for fuel, a cover makes a huge difference in the
operating cost. With solar, you have to move the water
to filter anyway, so heating it is essentially close to free
after the system is paid for. And the additional cost to
add it is the cost of the solar array, the additional piping,
and a controller. You will probably recover the cost of it versus
shelling out $$$$ for electricity or other fuel in just a few
years.

Also, the size of the heater you need depends on what
you want to do with it. If you're just trying to boost the
temp a bit at times and extend the season a bit, you can
get away with a smaller unit. If you want to keep the pool
open year round and use it in any weather conditions,
then you need a bigger one.

I would go talk to some neighbors in your area and see
what they are doing, get recommendations, etc.

On May 23, 1:12*pm, wrote:

Harry You virtually never see 3 phase at a residence but we do see 400
amp single phase service on a big house.

LOL give harry a break. He sees the 3 phase service at
the nut house he's been committed to and thinks it's a house.....

It's not an electric resistance heater, it's a heat pump. A unit in
the size the OP is talking about runs on 240V 50 to 60A circuit.

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:46:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool. I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small unit. We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week. Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? Is my thinking skewed? Is it worth the extra cost? Thanks!

1 btu raises 1 gal of water 1 deg so do the math.

On May 23, 5:05*pm, jamesgang wrote:
On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:46:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool. I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small unit. We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week. Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? Is my thinking skewed? Is it worth the extra cost? Thanks!

1 btu raises 1 gal of water 1 deg so do the math.

The other piece necessary is that heating eqpt is rated in
BTU's per hour, so a heater with 100K BTU
output rating, should raise the temp of 100,000 gallons
of water one degree in one hour. I don't know how
heat pump units are rated, but with gas fired units, the
BTUs are typically the INPUT energy, so you have to
decrease that by the efficiency of the particular unit.
If a 100K unit is 80% efficient, then it's putting out 80K btus.

The big unknown is the rate of heat loss of the pool and
that is going to slow down the heat rise.

On May 23, 5:52*pm, "
wrote:
On May 23, 5:05*pm, jamesgang wrote:

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:46:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool. I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small unit. We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week. Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? Is my thinking skewed? Is it worth the extra cost? Thanks!

1 btu raises 1 gal of water 1 deg so do the math.

The other piece necessary is that heating eqpt is rated in
*BTU's per hour, so a heater with 100K BTU
output rating, should raise the temp of 100,000 gallons
of water one degree in one hour. *I don't know how
heat pump units are rated, but with gas fired units, the
BTUs are typically the INPUT energy, so you have to
decrease that by the efficiency of the particular unit.
If a 100K unit is 80% efficient, then it's putting out 80K btus.

The big unknown is the rate of heat loss of the pool and
that is going to slow down the heat rise.

Well shiver me timbers...... James made a mistake and
I didn't catch it. A btu is not the amount of energy to raise
one gallon of water one degree. It's the amount of energy to
raise ONE POUND of water one degree F.

In article ,
wrote:

I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out
112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out
141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less
time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more
expensive than the small unit. We'll probably only use the pool on the
weekends. Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running
it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? Is my thinking skewed? Is
it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!

paint pool a dark color and get a clear pool cover

use your existing system for additional input

On Thu, 23 May 2013 14:05:03 -0700 (PDT), jamesgang
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:46:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool. I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small unit. We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week. Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? Is my thinking skewed? Is it worth the extra cost? Thanks!

1 btu raises 1 gal of water 1 deg so do the math.

No, it's about 1/8 that. A btu is the amount of heat it takes to
raise a POUND of water 1F. ~8.3 pounds per gallon.

On 5/23/2013 7:08 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out
112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out
141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less
time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more
expensive than the small unit. We'll probably only use the pool on the
weekends. Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running
it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? Is my thinking skewed? Is
it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!

paint pool a dark color and get a clear pool cover

use your existing system for additional input


The OP could get a solar blanket but they do tend to deteriorate quickly
in chlorine pools.

The last thing he should get is an electric pool heater unless he just
isn't concerned about money. I'm surprised they sell them and anyone
would buy one.

If I just had to have a heated pool in his situation, I'd consider a
solar heater, or do the cost analysis of getting a propane tank. A
propane tank may cost a lot up front but, the electric heater is going
to cost a lot more in the long run. I had a electric spa and got rid of
it after one season. I have a gas heater for my pool/spa now and love
it. I don't think the OP understands what it takes to heat a pool.

On May 23, 9:57*pm, gonjah wrote:
On 5/23/2013 7:08 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:





In article ,
* wrote:

I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out
112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). *I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out
141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less
time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more
expensive than the small unit. *We'll probably only use the pool on the
weekends. *Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running
it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking skewed? *Is
it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!

paint pool a dark color and get a clear pool cover

use your existing system for additional input

The OP could get a solar blanket but they do tend to deteriorate quickly
in chlorine pools.

The last thing he should get is an electric pool heater unless he just
isn't concerned about money. I'm surprised they sell them and anyone
would buy one.

It's not a purely electric heater. It's a heat pump. And
just like you can heat a home with them economically
in some parts of the country, apparently you can also
heat a pool. It depends on what the options are and
what the cost of electricity is.

In article
,
" wrote:

On May 23, 9:57*pm, gonjah wrote:
On 5/23/2013 7:08 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:





In article ,
* wrote:

I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts
out
112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). *I'm thinking that a larger unit that
puts out
141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require
less
time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500
more
expensive than the small unit. *We'll probably only use the pool on the
weekends. *Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with
running
it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking
skewed? *Is
it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!

paint pool a dark color and get a clear pool cover

use your existing system for additional input

The OP could get a solar blanket but they do tend to deteriorate quickly
in chlorine pools.

The last thing he should get is an electric pool heater unless he just
isn't concerned about money. I'm surprised they sell them and anyone
would buy one.

It's not a purely electric heater. It's a heat pump. And
just like you can heat a home with them economically
in some parts of the country, apparently you can also
heat a pool. It depends on what the options are and
what the cost of electricity is.

maybe he should just dump the heat from his house heat pump into the
pool (assuming that's how he cools the house) I know it won't provide
all the heat but it should provide some and at no additional cost other
than the initial set-up

On May 23, 6:12*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2013 00:12:12 -0700 (PDT), harry

wrote:
On May 23, 2:46*am, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). *I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small

unit. *We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. *Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week.











Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking skewed? *Is it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!Ads not by this site

You would be better getting some sort of solar heater.

Running a swimming pool is always going to be expensive.
Gas would be far cheaper than electricity.
Electricity is the worst possible option.
If your pool is near the house you may be able to use the home
heating furnace if you have a wet system.
You need a good insulated pool cover. Ideally there should
be insulation between the pool and the ground too.

The economics of turning a pool heating off are very dodgy
as it takes days for the pool to reheat.
Reducing temperature may be an option.

Your incoming power supply may not be big enough in any event.
You may need a three phase supply.

Harry is right, solar is the way to go but if you are very far north,
that may still not be enough.

Most of the pools in my neighborhood (SW Fla) are solar heated. The
practical limit for an uncovered pool is really only about 10 degrees
above the average daily ambient temp. You may end up with 80 degree
water in the afternoon on a 70 degree day but by morning that will be
back down in the low 70s. A cover makes a huge difference in that.
My neighbor across the street has more collector area than pool
surface and they can hold 86 or higher most of the winter (45-50f at
night)
When it gets much colder than that, they don't do as well.

I have less collector than pool area and no cover. The only thing
solar does for me in knock the chill off in the spring and fall.
I changed the plumbing so I can switch over to the spa. THAT is a
heluva deal.
When the solars are useless on the pool, I can still get the spa up in
the high 80s or low 90s before I kick on the heater.
In the spring and fall, I can get all the heat I need from the solars
in the day and only need the heater to maintain the heat until I am
done with it
We do not heat the spa with the heater unless we are in it.

Typically the only controller on a solar pool heater is a timer on the
pump.
I am going to tie the spa solar into the thermostat tho because this
spring I caught it at 120 *;-)

Harry You virtually never see 3 phase at a residence but we do see 400
amp single phase service on a big house.

As gee whiz info, my wife's country club has 7 heated pools,
uncovered.
They can't hold the temp with 10 ton heat pumps on the small pools if
we have a cold snap. The big pool has 30 tons

I will try to get the cost, they are all on separate meters.

Most houses here have electricity here is at 230volts/single phase/
100A. There is no 120 volts except on construction sites when step
down transformers are used.

However if you have more than say 15Kw continuous heating, you will be
expected to get three phase (depending on location).

Electric heating of swimming pools is virtually unheard of due to
cost, there is a gas supply to 99% of places.

Outdoor pools are uncommon here, there's probably only ten days/year
warm enough to use one.

On May 23, 10:05*pm, jamesgang wrote:
On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:46:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool. I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small unit. We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week. Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? Is my thinking skewed? Is it worth the extra cost? Thanks!

1 btu raises 1 gal of water 1 deg so do the math.

I think you'd better go back to school
1 btu raises 1 pound of water 1 degree F

On May 24, 5:19*am, wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2013 20:15:44 -0700, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"

wrote:
It's not a purely electric heater. *It's a heat pump. *And
just like you can heat a home with them economically
in some parts of the country, apparently you can also
heat a pool. *It depends on what the options are and
what the cost of electricity is.

maybe he should just dump the heat from his house heat pump into the
pool (assuming that's how he cools the house) I know it won't provide
all the heat but it should provide some and at no additional cost other
than the initial set-up

I stop heating the pool before I turn on the A/C.
I suppose climate might change that

A lot of it would be down to the Coefficient of Performance of the
heat pump. X4 is typical but they have improved a lot lately.
I would have thought one that size would need three phase supply,
But whatever you do, you need to minimise losses (pool covers etc)
first so that the smallest possible plant is needed.

On May 24, 12:19*am, wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2013 20:15:44 -0700, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"

wrote:
It's not a purely electric heater. *It's a heat pump. *And
just like you can heat a home with them economically
in some parts of the country, apparently you can also
heat a pool. *It depends on what the options are and
what the cost of electricity is.

maybe he should just dump the heat from his house heat pump into the
pool (assuming that's how he cools the house) I know it won't provide
all the heat but it should provide some and at no additional cost other
than the initial set-up

I stop heating the pool before I turn on the A/C.
I suppose climate might change that

I agree that is one of the obvious problems. Dumping
that home AC heat into the pool could help, but when
you look at the whole situation, it doesn't make much
sense to me. Among the problems:

As you point out, heat is not available when you need it
most. And when the most heat is available you need it
least, or not at all. The OP is in FL, which would be
one of the worst climates with regard to that.

Typical home AC is maybe 4 tons, or 48K BTUs.
And that is when it's actually runnning. On days
that are just modestly hot, when you'd typically want
to heat the pool, what percent of the time is it
actually running? 20%? So, now you're down to
10K btus. Typical pool heater is 100K to 400K btu

To try to roll your own is not a trivial task. And the
one system available, that was shown on This Old House,
requires cutting refrigerant lines to install the additional
water based heat exchanger, modifying the existing
system, recharging it, etc. All that isn't cheap and I'll
bet you can kiss your warranty good bye. For the
same amount of money, you could buy a solar system,
which, if you have the space for it, IMO, is a much
better option.

On May 24, 1:04*am, harry wrote:
On May 23, 6:12*pm, wrote:





On Thu, 23 May 2013 00:12:12 -0700 (PDT), harry

wrote:
On May 23, 2:46*am, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). *I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small

unit. *We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. *Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking skewed? *Is it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!Ads not by this site

You would be better getting some sort of solar heater.

Running a swimming pool is always going to be expensive.
Gas would be far cheaper than electricity.
Electricity is the worst possible option.
If your pool is near the house you may be able to use the home
heating furnace if you have a wet system.
You need a good insulated pool cover. Ideally there should
be insulation between the pool and the ground too.

The economics of turning a pool heating off are very dodgy
as it takes days for the pool to reheat.
Reducing temperature may be an option.

Your incoming power supply may not be big enough in any event.
You may need a three phase supply.

Harry is right, solar is the way to go but if you are very far north,
that may still not be enough.

Most of the pools in my neighborhood (SW Fla) are solar heated. The
practical limit for an uncovered pool is really only about 10 degrees
above the average daily ambient temp. You may end up with 80 degree
water in the afternoon on a 70 degree day but by morning that will be
back down in the low 70s. A cover makes a huge difference in that.
My neighbor across the street has more collector area than pool
surface and they can hold 86 or higher most of the winter (45-50f at
night)
When it gets much colder than that, they don't do as well.

I have less collector than pool area and no cover. The only thing
solar does for me in knock the chill off in the spring and fall.
I changed the plumbing so I can switch over to the spa. THAT is a
heluva deal.
When the solars are useless on the pool, I can still get the spa up in
the high 80s or low 90s before I kick on the heater.
In the spring and fall, I can get all the heat I need from the solars
in the day and only need the heater to maintain the heat until I am
done with it
We do not heat the spa with the heater unless we are in it.

Typically the only controller on a solar pool heater is a timer on the
pump.
I am going to tie the spa solar into the thermostat tho because this
spring I caught it at 120 *;-)

Harry You virtually never see 3 phase at a residence but we do see 400
amp single phase service on a big house.

As gee whiz info, my wife's country club has 7 heated pools,
uncovered.
They can't hold the temp with 10 ton heat pumps on the small pools if
we have a cold snap. The big pool has 30 tons

I will try to get the cost, they are all on separate meters.

Most houses here have electricity here is at 230volts/single *phase/
100A.

I'm sorry for you harry. If true, just another sign of the
inadequacy of the Britts.



*There is no 120 volts except on construction sites when step
down transformers are used.

Who cares? The pool heat pumps all run on 240V.



However if you have more than say 15Kw continuous heating, you will be
expected to get three phase (depending on location).

That's just 62 amps. What exactly is the problem with
having a 150A service that makes 3 phase necessary?
150A services are very common here, the min pretty
much that's put in today for a house. 200A are very
common too. A friend has 300A. All those are done
using single phase, nothing unusual at all.




Electric heating of swimming pools is virtually unheard of due to
cost, there is a gas supply to 99% of places.

It's not really electric heating. That terms is typically used
to refer to resistance heating. The pools use heat pumps,
which are referred to as heat pumps. If gas is the only
viable option in the UK, how do you explain this:

http://www.dreamheatpumps.co.uk/

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350793470032

http://www.lighthousepools.co.uk/

Like I said, if they let you out of the nuthouse at
least once in a while, maybe you'd see some stuff.



Outdoor pools are uncommon here, there's probably only ten days/year
warm enough to use one.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Fri, 24 May 2013 07:42:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Like I said, if they let you out of the nuthouse at
least once in a while, maybe you'd see some stuff.


thanks for the chuckle

I figure harry is head orderly about now, so they let him out to mop
the ward.

....
Nurse Ratched: Aren't you ashamed?

Billy: No, I'm not.
[Applause from friends]

Nurse Ratched: You know Billy, what worries me is how your mother is
going to take this.

Billy: Um, um, well, y-y-y-you d-d-d-don't have to t-t-t-tell her,
Miss Ratched.

Nurse Ratched: I don't have to tell her? Your mother and I are old
friends. You know that.

Billy: P-p-p-please d-d-don't tell my m-m-m-mother.
....

Oh, I'm for the solar option.

On May 24, 3:42*pm, "
wrote:
On May 24, 1:04*am, harry wrote:









On May 23, 6:12*pm, wrote:

On Thu, 23 May 2013 00:12:12 -0700 (PDT), harry

wrote:
On May 23, 2:46*am, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). *I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small

unit. *We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. *Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking skewed? *Is it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!Ads not by this site

You would be better getting some sort of solar heater.

Running a swimming pool is always going to be expensive.
Gas would be far cheaper than electricity.
Electricity is the worst possible option.
If your pool is near the house you may be able to use the home
heating furnace if you have a wet system.
You need a good insulated pool cover. Ideally there should
be insulation between the pool and the ground too.

The economics of turning a pool heating off are very dodgy
as it takes days for the pool to reheat.
Reducing temperature may be an option.

Your incoming power supply may not be big enough in any event.
You may need a three phase supply.

Harry is right, solar is the way to go but if you are very far north,
that may still not be enough.

Most of the pools in my neighborhood (SW Fla) are solar heated. The
practical limit for an uncovered pool is really only about 10 degrees
above the average daily ambient temp. You may end up with 80 degree
water in the afternoon on a 70 degree day but by morning that will be
back down in the low 70s. A cover makes a huge difference in that.
My neighbor across the street has more collector area than pool
surface and they can hold 86 or higher most of the winter (45-50f at
night)
When it gets much colder than that, they don't do as well.

I have less collector than pool area and no cover. The only thing
solar does for me in knock the chill off in the spring and fall.
I changed the plumbing so I can switch over to the spa. THAT is a
heluva deal.
When the solars are useless on the pool, I can still get the spa up in
the high 80s or low 90s before I kick on the heater.
In the spring and fall, I can get all the heat I need from the solars
in the day and only need the heater to maintain the heat until I am
done with it
We do not heat the spa with the heater unless we are in it.

Typically the only controller on a solar pool heater is a timer on the
pump.
I am going to tie the spa solar into the thermostat tho because this
spring I caught it at 120 *;-)

Harry You virtually never see 3 phase at a residence but we do see 400
amp single phase service on a big house.

As gee whiz info, my wife's country club has 7 heated pools,
uncovered.
They can't hold the temp with 10 ton heat pumps on the small pools if
we have a cold snap. The big pool has 30 tons

I will try to get the cost, they are all on separate meters.

Most houses here have electricity here is at 230volts/single *phase/
100A.

I'm sorry for you harry. *If true, just another sign of the
inadequacy of the Britts.

**There is no 120 volts except on construction sites when step

down transformers are used.

Who cares? *The pool heat pumps all run on 240V.



However if you have more than say 15Kw continuous heating, you will be
expected to get three phase (depending on location).

That's just 62 amps. *What exactly is the problem with
having a 150A service that makes 3 phase necessary?
150A services are very common here, the min pretty
much that's put in today for a house. *200A are very
common too. *A friend has 300A. *All those are done
using single phase, nothing unusual at all.


A 15Kw three phase system here is just 22 A/phase as the voltage is
410v.
Putting loads like this on a single phase system causes voltages to
appear on the neutral which can upset RCD devices.

On Fri, 24 May 2013 07:29:53 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

To try to roll your own is not a trivial task. And the
one system available, that was shown on This Old House,
requires cutting refrigerant lines to install the additional
water based heat exchanger, modifying the existing
system, recharging it, etc. All that isn't cheap and I'll
bet you can kiss your warranty good bye. For the
same amount of money, you could buy a solar system,
which, if you have the space for it, IMO, is a much
better option.

Another issue is that if the pool pump and AC lines are on opposite
sides of the house - it complicates the install.

Solar panels are perfect for our small pool in the desert.

....
Link to video of the episode of TOH
http://www.hotspotenergy.com/pool-heater/

On May 24, 3:42*pm, "
wrote:
On May 24, 1:04*am, harry wrote:









On May 23, 6:12*pm, wrote:

On Thu, 23 May 2013 00:12:12 -0700 (PDT), harry

wrote:
On May 23, 2:46*am, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). *I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small

unit. *We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. *Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking skewed? *Is it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!Ads not by this site

You would be better getting some sort of solar heater.

Running a swimming pool is always going to be expensive.
Gas would be far cheaper than electricity.
Electricity is the worst possible option.
If your pool is near the house you may be able to use the home
heating furnace if you have a wet system.
You need a good insulated pool cover. Ideally there should
be insulation between the pool and the ground too.

The economics of turning a pool heating off are very dodgy
as it takes days for the pool to reheat.
Reducing temperature may be an option.

Your incoming power supply may not be big enough in any event.
You may need a three phase supply.

Harry is right, solar is the way to go but if you are very far north,
that may still not be enough.

Most of the pools in my neighborhood (SW Fla) are solar heated. The
practical limit for an uncovered pool is really only about 10 degrees
above the average daily ambient temp. You may end up with 80 degree
water in the afternoon on a 70 degree day but by morning that will be
back down in the low 70s. A cover makes a huge difference in that.
My neighbor across the street has more collector area than pool
surface and they can hold 86 or higher most of the winter (45-50f at
night)
When it gets much colder than that, they don't do as well.

I have less collector than pool area and no cover. The only thing
solar does for me in knock the chill off in the spring and fall.
I changed the plumbing so I can switch over to the spa. THAT is a
heluva deal.
When the solars are useless on the pool, I can still get the spa up in
the high 80s or low 90s before I kick on the heater.
In the spring and fall, I can get all the heat I need from the solars
in the day and only need the heater to maintain the heat until I am
done with it
We do not heat the spa with the heater unless we are in it.

Typically the only controller on a solar pool heater is a timer on the
pump.
I am going to tie the spa solar into the thermostat tho because this
spring I caught it at 120 *;-)

Harry You virtually never see 3 phase at a residence but we do see 400
amp single phase service on a big house.

As gee whiz info, my wife's country club has 7 heated pools,
uncovered.
They can't hold the temp with 10 ton heat pumps on the small pools if
we have a cold snap. The big pool has 30 tons

I will try to get the cost, they are all on separate meters.

Most houses here have electricity here is at 230volts/single *phase/
100A.

I'm sorry for you harry. *If true, just another sign of the
inadequacy of the Britts.

**There is no 120 volts except on construction sites when step

down transformers are used.

Who cares? *The pool heat pumps all run on 240V.



However if you have more than say 15Kw continuous heating, you will be
expected to get three phase (depending on location).

That's just 62 amps. *What exactly is the problem with
having a 150A service that makes 3 phase necessary?
150A services are very common here, the min pretty
much that's put in today for a house. *200A are very
common too. *A friend has 300A. *All those are done
using single phase, nothing unusual at all.



Electric heating of swimming pools is virtually unheard of due to
cost, there is a gas supply to 99% of places.

It's not really electric heating. *That terms is typically used
to refer to resistance heating. *The pools use heat pumps,
which are referred to as heat pumps. *If gas is the only
viable option in the UK, how do you explain this:

http://www.dreamheatpumps.co.uk/

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350793470032

http://www.lighthousepools.co.uk/

Like I said, if they let you out of the nuthouse at
least once in a while, maybe you'd see some stuff.

Virtually never used.
Most homes here have wet heating systems. This boiler can easily be
used to heat the pool via a heat exchanger.

Where there is no gas, either oil or propane is used.
Heat pumps are being offered in the last ten years or so but there are
icing problems on the evaporators in our climate.

There are big differences too between the UK and USA in energy costs
and how the tariff is structured.

On 5/23/2013 5:44 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:05:34 AM UTC-4, VinnyB wrote:
On Wed, 22 May 2013 18:46:55 -0700 (PDT),

wrote in Re

Pool heat pump - How many BTUs?:



Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? Is my thinking skewed? Is it worth the extra cost?



It is worth the extra cost. Go for it. You will be glad that you

did.


Thanks for the replies and thoughts, everyone. Let me try to reply to everyone in one post.

I live in South Florida, so it's fairly sunny here for most of the year and the nights are normally just as hot as the days.

No propane or natural gas here in my area.

propane can come in tanks. i had a friend who had a 100gallon propane
tank put in for a spa

I have neighbors who have solar systems and they told me to save my money. Once the temperature dips down below 75 or so, they don't generate enough heat for them. I also don't like having all that weight on my roof tiles. Just my preference on that one.

solar panels can go on the ground

No home furnace - electric heat in the house.

A pool cover is definitely an option. I think all my neighbors have heaters, yet, strangely, none of them use a cover.

No, there is no insulation between the pool and the ground. It doesn't get that cold down here for that kind of thing, I would think.


you'd be wrong. ground temp is always less than air temp, unless you're
living on a volcano. so, it's always a heat sink 24x7. insulation around
a pool is always a winner, but it's hard to put in after the pool is done.

On 5/23/2013 10:13 PM, harry wrote:
On May 24, 5:19 am, wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2013 20:15:44 -0700, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"

wrote:
It's not a purely electric heater. It's a heat pump. And
just like you can heat a home with them economically
in some parts of the country, apparently you can also
heat a pool. It depends on what the options are and
what the cost of electricity is.

maybe he should just dump the heat from his house heat pump into the
pool (assuming that's how he cools the house) I know it won't provide
all the heat but it should provide some and at no additional cost other
than the initial set-up

I stop heating the pool before I turn on the A/C.
I suppose climate might change that

A lot of it would be down to the Coefficient of Performance of the
heat pump. X4 is typical but they have improved a lot lately.
I would have thought one that size would need three phase supply,
But whatever you do, you need to minimise losses (pool covers etc)
first so that the smallest possible plant is needed.


it is nearly impossible to get 3 phase power at a house in the US.
utility companies don't run this in residential areas, only in
commercial areas. if it was even somewhere in the neighborhood, it would
cost 10's of thousands of dollars to have it run even a few blocks.

On Fri, 24 May 2013 10:29:58 -0700, chaniarts
wrote:

No, there is no insulation between the pool and the ground. It doesn't get that cold down here for that kind of thing, I would think.


you'd be wrong. ground temp is always less than air temp, unless you're
living on a volcano. so, it's always a heat sink 24x7. insulation around
a pool is always a winner, but it's hard to put in after the pool is done.

I worked in pool construction as a teen, In Florida, no less. Not once
was insulation involved in the construction of the in ground pools.

The cement gunite is ~ 8 inches thick, full of steel rebar and
retains heat for some time.

On 5/24/2013 12:22 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2013 10:29:58 -0700, chaniarts
wrote:

No, there is no insulation between the pool and the ground. It doesn't get that cold down here for that kind of thing, I would think.


you'd be wrong. ground temp is always less than air temp, unless you're
living on a volcano. so, it's always a heat sink 24x7. insulation around
a pool is always a winner, but it's hard to put in after the pool is done.

I worked in pool construction as a teen, In Florida, no less. Not once
was insulation involved in the construction of the in ground pools.

The cement gunite is ~ 8 inches thick, full of steel rebar and
retains heat for some time.


cost.

yes it retains heat. but the earth is a pretty large heat sink, and
it'll win every time. otherwise ground loops for heating/cooling
exchangers wouldn't be an economic win.

i would bet that every pool north of 5 degrees of latitude would benefit
from insulation, most especially heated ones. no one wants to pay for
that up front.

On May 24, 1:13*pm, harry wrote:
On May 24, 3:42*pm, "
wrote:



On May 24, 1:04*am, harry wrote:

On May 23, 6:12*pm, wrote:

On Thu, 23 May 2013 00:12:12 -0700 (PDT), harry

wrote:
On May 23, 2:46*am, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). *I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small

unit. *We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. *Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking skewed? *Is it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!Ads not by this site

You would be better getting some sort of solar heater.

Running a swimming pool is always going to be expensive.
Gas would be far cheaper than electricity.
Electricity is the worst possible option.
If your pool is near the house you may be able to use the home
heating furnace if you have a wet system.
You need a good insulated pool cover. Ideally there should
be insulation between the pool and the ground too.

The economics of turning a pool heating off are very dodgy
as it takes days for the pool to reheat.
Reducing temperature may be an option.

Your incoming power supply may not be big enough in any event.
You may need a three phase supply.

Harry is right, solar is the way to go but if you are very far north,
that may still not be enough.

Most of the pools in my neighborhood (SW Fla) are solar heated. The
practical limit for an uncovered pool is really only about 10 degrees
above the average daily ambient temp. You may end up with 80 degree
water in the afternoon on a 70 degree day but by morning that will be
back down in the low 70s. A cover makes a huge difference in that.
My neighbor across the street has more collector area than pool
surface and they can hold 86 or higher most of the winter (45-50f at
night)
When it gets much colder than that, they don't do as well.

I have less collector than pool area and no cover. The only thing
solar does for me in knock the chill off in the spring and fall.
I changed the plumbing so I can switch over to the spa. THAT is a
heluva deal.
When the solars are useless on the pool, I can still get the spa up in
the high 80s or low 90s before I kick on the heater.
In the spring and fall, I can get all the heat I need from the solars
in the day and only need the heater to maintain the heat until I am
done with it
We do not heat the spa with the heater unless we are in it.

Typically the only controller on a solar pool heater is a timer on the
pump.
I am going to tie the spa solar into the thermostat tho because this
spring I caught it at 120 *;-)

Harry You virtually never see 3 phase at a residence but we do see 400
amp single phase service on a big house.

As gee whiz info, my wife's country club has 7 heated pools,
uncovered.
They can't hold the temp with 10 ton heat pumps on the small pools if
we have a cold snap. The big pool has 30 tons

I will try to get the cost, they are all on separate meters.

Most houses here have electricity here is at 230volts/single *phase/
100A.

I'm sorry for you harry. *If true, just another sign of the
inadequacy of the Britts.

**There is no 120 volts except on construction sites when step

down transformers are used.

Who cares? *The pool heat pumps all run on 240V.

However if you have more than say 15Kw continuous heating, you will be
expected to get three phase (depending on location).

That's just 62 amps. *What exactly is the problem with
having a 150A service that makes 3 phase necessary?
150A services are very common here, the min pretty
much that's put in today for a house. *200A are very
common too. *A friend has 300A. *All those are done
using single phase, nothing unusual at all.

Electric heating of swimming pools is virtually unheard of due to
cost, there is a gas supply to 99% of places.

It's not really electric heating. *That terms is typically used
to refer to resistance heating. *The pools use heat pumps,
which are referred to as heat pumps. *If gas is the only
viable option in the UK, how do you explain this:

http://www.dreamheatpumps.co.uk/

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350793470032

http://www.lighthousepools.co.uk/

Like I said, if they let you out of the nuthouse at
least once in a while, maybe you'd see some stuff.

Virtually never used.

Sure, who should we believe? You who doesn't even have
any experience with a pool or all the companies obviously
selling heat pump based heaters?



Most homes here have wet heating systems. This boiler can easily be
used to heat the pool via a heat exchanger.

What most do doesn't mean there isn't a viable market for heat
pump systems. Most pools here in the US don't have
heat pump systems either. Matters not a wit. If the
application is right, they can be the right choice.



Where there is no gas, either oil or propane is used.
Heat pumps are being offered in the last ten years or so but there are
icing problems on the evaporators in our climate.

Icing on a pool heat pump? Icing indeed!



There are big differences too between the UK and USA in energy costs
and how the tariff is structured.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On May 24, 12:47*pm, harry wrote:
On May 24, 3:42*pm, "
wrote:





On May 24, 1:04*am, harry wrote:

On May 23, 6:12*pm, wrote:

On Thu, 23 May 2013 00:12:12 -0700 (PDT), harry

wrote:
On May 23, 2:46*am, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). *I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small

unit. *We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. *Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking skewed? *Is it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!Ads not by this site

You would be better getting some sort of solar heater.

Running a swimming pool is always going to be expensive.
Gas would be far cheaper than electricity.
Electricity is the worst possible option.
If your pool is near the house you may be able to use the home
heating furnace if you have a wet system.
You need a good insulated pool cover. Ideally there should
be insulation between the pool and the ground too.

The economics of turning a pool heating off are very dodgy
as it takes days for the pool to reheat.
Reducing temperature may be an option.

Your incoming power supply may not be big enough in any event.
You may need a three phase supply.

Harry is right, solar is the way to go but if you are very far north,
that may still not be enough.

Most of the pools in my neighborhood (SW Fla) are solar heated. The
practical limit for an uncovered pool is really only about 10 degrees
above the average daily ambient temp. You may end up with 80 degree
water in the afternoon on a 70 degree day but by morning that will be
back down in the low 70s. A cover makes a huge difference in that.
My neighbor across the street has more collector area than pool
surface and they can hold 86 or higher most of the winter (45-50f at
night)
When it gets much colder than that, they don't do as well.

I have less collector than pool area and no cover. The only thing
solar does for me in knock the chill off in the spring and fall.
I changed the plumbing so I can switch over to the spa. THAT is a
heluva deal.
When the solars are useless on the pool, I can still get the spa up in
the high 80s or low 90s before I kick on the heater.
In the spring and fall, I can get all the heat I need from the solars
in the day and only need the heater to maintain the heat until I am
done with it
We do not heat the spa with the heater unless we are in it.

Typically the only controller on a solar pool heater is a timer on the
pump.
I am going to tie the spa solar into the thermostat tho because this
spring I caught it at 120 *;-)

Harry You virtually never see 3 phase at a residence but we do see 400
amp single phase service on a big house.

As gee whiz info, my wife's country club has 7 heated pools,
uncovered.
They can't hold the temp with 10 ton heat pumps on the small pools if
we have a cold snap. The big pool has 30 tons

I will try to get the cost, they are all on separate meters.

Most houses here have electricity here is at 230volts/single *phase/
100A.

I'm sorry for you harry. *If true, just another sign of the
inadequacy of the Britts.

**There is no 120 volts except on construction sites when step

down transformers are used.

Who cares? *The pool heat pumps all run on 240V.

However if you have more than say 15Kw continuous heating, you will be
expected to get three phase (depending on location).

That's just 62 amps. *What exactly is the problem with
having a 150A service that makes 3 phase necessary?
150A services are very common here, the min pretty
much that's put in today for a house. *200A are very
common too. *A friend has 300A. *All those are done
using single phase, nothing unusual at all.

A 15Kw three phase system here is just 22 A/phase as the voltage is
410v.
Putting loads like this on a single phase system causes voltages to
appear on the neutral which can upset RCD devices.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Only if the single phase system is half-assed. Apparently
that must be the case. And all this time I thought you Britts
were so superior. Most houses only have a 100A service and
if you need more you have to go to 3 phase. Must be a grand
place. Or, more likely, your're just BSing as usual.

On May 24, 1:29*pm, chaniarts wrote:
On 5/23/2013 5:44 AM, wrote:





On Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:05:34 AM UTC-4, VinnyB wrote:
On Wed, 22 May 2013 18:46:55 -0700 (PDT),

wrote in Re

Pool heat pump - How many BTUs?:

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking skewed? *Is it worth the extra cost?

It is worth the extra cost. *Go for it. *You will be glad that you

did.

Thanks for the replies and thoughts, everyone. *Let me try to reply to everyone in one post.

I live in South Florida, so it's fairly sunny here for most of the year and the nights are normally just as hot as the days.

No propane or natural gas here in my area.

propane can come in tanks. i had a friend who had a 100gallon propane
tank put in for a spa

I have neighbors who have solar systems and they told me to save my money. *Once the temperature dips down below 75 or so, they don't generate enough heat for them. *I also don't like having all that weight on my roof tiles. *Just my preference on that one.

solar panels can go on the ground


If he wants to rule out solar because it can't go on the roof and also
there is no room on the ground or he doesn't want it there. that's
fine.
But I would not rule it out based on some comments from a couple of
neighbors. I would do so more research. The neighbors obviously have
some cheap system, which I suspect is not unusual. And that can be
fine if you only want to heat it part of the season. But then you
can't
complain because that system doesn't work well below 75.

The more you need to heat it, the more fuel you're going to be
using with any system other than solar. I'd do some math and
figure out how much that will cost. And I think it would be quickly
seen that the payback time for either a larger or more efficient
solar array system is fairly short. If the system isn't heating well
below 75, make the array substantially bigger, and you get more
heat. Or you can use a smaller array with more expensive, higher
tech components that will generate more heat.

I think you have to get a grasp on how enormous the heating
requirement for a pool can be. Here in the NYC area, just to
extend the season maybe two months, can easily result it
nat gas bills in the thousands of dollars. I know FL will be
different because it's warmer, but if you're trying to extend
the season to all year and think solar isn't good below 75, how much
gas or electric do you think you'll be using? IMO, the
payback time of a really good solar system would make it
a very viable solution. Don't assume the neighbors have a
really good one, because there objectives could be very
different from yours.

On 5/23/2013 9:31 PM, wrote:
On May 23, 9:57 pm, gonjah wrote:
On 5/23/2013 7:08 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:





In article ,
wrote:

I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out
112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out
141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less
time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more
expensive than the small unit. We'll probably only use the pool on the
weekends. Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running
it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? Is my thinking skewed? Is
it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!

paint pool a dark color and get a clear pool cover

use your existing system for additional input

The OP could get a solar blanket but they do tend to deteriorate quickly
in chlorine pools.

The last thing he should get is an electric pool heater unless he just
isn't concerned about money. I'm surprised they sell them and anyone
would buy one.

It's not a purely electric heater. It's a heat pump. And
just like you can heat a home with them economically
in some parts of the country, apparently you can also
heat a pool. It depends on what the options are and
what the cost of electricity is.





I see. My mistake. Interesting.

On Fri, 24 May 2013 15:41:26 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 24 May 2013 12:38:56 -0700, chaniarts
wrote:

On 5/24/2013 12:22 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2013 10:29:58 -0700, chaniarts
wrote:

No, there is no insulation between the pool and the ground. It doesn't get that cold down here for that kind of thing, I would think.


you'd be wrong. ground temp is always less than air temp, unless you're
living on a volcano. so, it's always a heat sink 24x7. insulation around
a pool is always a winner, but it's hard to put in after the pool is done.

I worked in pool construction as a teen, In Florida, no less. Not once
was insulation involved in the construction of the in ground pools.

The cement gunite is ~ 8 inches thick, full of steel rebar and
retains heat for some time.


cost.

yes it retains heat. but the earth is a pretty large heat sink, and
it'll win every time. otherwise ground loops for heating/cooling
exchangers wouldn't be an economic win.

i would bet that every pool north of 5 degrees of latitude would benefit
from insulation, most especially heated ones. no one wants to pay for
that up front.

Heating pools is fairly insignificant in Florida.

I'd go so far as to say the water table is warm. (seasonable)

On May 24, 4:13*pm, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2013 15:41:26 -0400, wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2013 12:38:56 -0700, chaniarts
wrote:

On 5/24/2013 12:22 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2013 10:29:58 -0700, chaniarts
wrote:

No, there is no insulation between the pool and the ground. *It doesn't get that cold down here for that kind of thing, I would think.

you'd be wrong. ground temp is always less than air temp, unless you're
living on a volcano. so, it's always a heat sink 24x7. insulation around
a pool is always a winner, but it's hard to put in after the pool is done.

I worked in pool construction as a teen, In Florida, no less. Not once
was insulation involved in the construction of the in ground pools.

The *cement gunite is ~ 8 inches thick, full of steel rebar and
retains heat for some time.

cost.

yes it retains heat. but the earth is a pretty large heat sink, and
it'll win every time. otherwise ground loops for heating/cooling
exchangers wouldn't be an economic win.

i would bet that every pool north of 5 degrees of latitude would benefit
from insulation, most especially heated ones. no one wants to pay for
that up front.

Heating pools is fairly insignificant in Florida.

I'd go so far as to say the water table is warm. (seasonable)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, it certainly is more than 32F, but it is still below what you
would want far a swimming pool for at least 6 months every year. No
matter what, there is going to be a lot of heat loss into the ground,
and the ground is very wet/conductive in FL. You need to study the
air loss from the surface and the conducted loss thru the walls and
bottom of the pool to see where your emphasis should be, It is
conceivable that you should drain the pool, put insulation all around
the sides of the pool and then refill the pool.

On Fri, 24 May 2013 07:42:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On May 24, 1:04*am, harry wrote:
On May 23, 6:12*pm, wrote:





On Thu, 23 May 2013 00:12:12 -0700 (PDT), harry

wrote:
On May 23, 2:46*am, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). *I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small

unit. *We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. *Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking skewed? *Is it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!Ads not by this site

You would be better getting some sort of solar heater.

Running a swimming pool is always going to be expensive.
Gas would be far cheaper than electricity.
Electricity is the worst possible option.
If your pool is near the house you may be able to use the home
heating furnace if you have a wet system.
You need a good insulated pool cover. Ideally there should
be insulation between the pool and the ground too.

The economics of turning a pool heating off are very dodgy
as it takes days for the pool to reheat.
Reducing temperature may be an option.

Your incoming power supply may not be big enough in any event.
You may need a three phase supply.

Harry is right, solar is the way to go but if you are very far north,
that may still not be enough.

Most of the pools in my neighborhood (SW Fla) are solar heated. The
practical limit for an uncovered pool is really only about 10 degrees
above the average daily ambient temp. You may end up with 80 degree
water in the afternoon on a 70 degree day but by morning that will be
back down in the low 70s. A cover makes a huge difference in that.
My neighbor across the street has more collector area than pool
surface and they can hold 86 or higher most of the winter (45-50f at
night)
When it gets much colder than that, they don't do as well.

I have less collector than pool area and no cover. The only thing
solar does for me in knock the chill off in the spring and fall.
I changed the plumbing so I can switch over to the spa. THAT is a
heluva deal.
When the solars are useless on the pool, I can still get the spa up in
the high 80s or low 90s before I kick on the heater.
In the spring and fall, I can get all the heat I need from the solars
in the day and only need the heater to maintain the heat until I am
done with it
We do not heat the spa with the heater unless we are in it.

Typically the only controller on a solar pool heater is a timer on the
pump.
I am going to tie the spa solar into the thermostat tho because this
spring I caught it at 120 *;-)

Harry You virtually never see 3 phase at a residence but we do see 400
amp single phase service on a big house.

As gee whiz info, my wife's country club has 7 heated pools,
uncovered.
They can't hold the temp with 10 ton heat pumps on the small pools if
we have a cold snap. The big pool has 30 tons

I will try to get the cost, they are all on separate meters.

Most houses here have electricity here is at 230volts/single *phase/
100A.

I'm sorry for you harry. If true, just another sign of the
inadequacy of the Britts.



*There is no 120 volts except on construction sites when step
down transformers are used.

Who cares? The pool heat pumps all run on 240V.



However if you have more than say 15Kw continuous heating, you will be
expected to get three phase (depending on location).

That's just 62 amps. What exactly is the problem with
having a 150A service that makes 3 phase necessary?
150A services are very common here, the min pretty
much that's put in today for a house. 200A are very
common too. A friend has 300A. All those are done
using single phase, nothing unusual at all.

This house has two 150A service panels. It's not unusual at all,
here. No swimming pool.

Electric heating of swimming pools is virtually unheard of due to
cost, there is a gas supply to 99% of places.

It's not really electric heating. That terms is typically used
to refer to resistance heating. The pools use heat pumps,
which are referred to as heat pumps. If gas is the only
viable option in the UK, how do you explain this:

If gas is the only option (obviously not), they're in deep water
(which they are).

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/6829d91...#axzz2UGyVyWPK

On May 24, 10:29*am, chaniarts wrote:
On 5/23/2013 5:44 AM, wrote:









On Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:05:34 AM UTC-4, VinnyB wrote:
On Wed, 22 May 2013 18:46:55 -0700 (PDT),

wrote in Re

Pool heat pump - How many BTUs?:

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking skewed? *Is it worth the extra cost?

It is worth the extra cost. *Go for it. *You will be glad that you

did.

Thanks for the replies and thoughts, everyone. *Let me try to reply to everyone in one post.

I live in South Florida, so it's fairly sunny here for most of the year and the nights are normally just as hot as the days.

No propane or natural gas here in my area.

propane can come in tanks. i had a friend who had a 100gallon propane
tank put in for a spa

I have neighbors who have solar systems and they told me to save my money. *Once the temperature dips down below 75 or so, they don't generate enough heat for them. *I also don't like having all that weight on my roof tiles. *Just my preference on that one.

solar panels can go on the ground

No home furnace - electric heat in the house.

A pool cover is definitely an option. *I think all my neighbors have heaters, yet, strangely, none of them use a cover.

No, there is no insulation between the pool and the ground. *It doesn't get that cold down here for that kind of thing, I would think.

you'd be wrong. ground temp is always less than air temp, unless you're
living on a volcano. so, it's always a heat sink 24x7. insulation around
a pool is always a winner, but it's hard to put in after the pool is done..


chaniarts is correct... the R factor for concrete is terrible
about 1.5 for 8" of reinforced concrete. In ground spas & pools lose
a LOT of heat to the ground.

I had reasonably sized above ground spa and was it boost the temp on
demand and it stayed reasonably warm (but not hot enough for real use)
for days. It had spray foam insulation ~R 2 per inch

On May 24, 12:22*pm, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2013 10:29:58 -0700, chaniarts

wrote:
No, there is no insulation between the pool and the ground. *It doesn't get that cold down here for that kind of thing, I would think.

you'd be wrong. ground temp is always less than air temp, unless you're
living on a volcano. so, it's always a heat sink 24x7. insulation around
a pool is always a winner, but it's hard to put in after the pool is done.

I worked in pool construction as a teen, In Florida, no less. Not once
was insulation involved in the construction of the in ground pools.

The *cement gunite is ~ 8 inches thick, full of steel rebar and
retains heat for some time.

the R factor for concrete is terrible
about 1.5 for 8" of reinforced concrete. In ground spas & pools
lose
a LOT of heat to the ground.

8 inches thick, full of steel rebar and retains heat for some time.

if that was true we wouldn't need very large pool heaters...

the heat capacity of concrte is only 1/4 that of water.

On May 24, 7:04*pm, "
wrote:
On May 24, 4:13*pm, Oren wrote:









On Fri, 24 May 2013 15:41:26 -0400, wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2013 12:38:56 -0700, chaniarts
wrote:

On 5/24/2013 12:22 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2013 10:29:58 -0700, chaniarts
wrote:

No, there is no insulation between the pool and the ground. *It doesn't get that cold down here for that kind of thing, I would think.

you'd be wrong. ground temp is always less than air temp, unless you're
living on a volcano. so, it's always a heat sink 24x7. insulation around
a pool is always a winner, but it's hard to put in after the pool is done.

I worked in pool construction as a teen, In Florida, no less. Not once
was insulation involved in the construction of the in ground pools.

The *cement gunite is ~ 8 inches thick, full of steel rebar and
retains heat for some time.

cost.

yes it retains heat. but the earth is a pretty large heat sink, and
it'll win every time. otherwise ground loops for heating/cooling
exchangers wouldn't be an economic win.

i would bet that every pool north of 5 degrees of latitude would benefit
from insulation, most especially heated ones. no one wants to pay for
that up front.

Heating pools is fairly insignificant in Florida.

I'd go so far as to say the water table is warm. (seasonable)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, it certainly is more than 32F, but it is still below what you
would want far a swimming pool for at least 6 months every year. * No
matter what, there is going to be a lot of heat loss into the ground,
and the ground is very wet/conductive in FL. *You need to study the
air loss from the surface and the conducted loss thru the walls and
bottom of the pool to see where your emphasis should be, *It is
conceivable that you should drain the pool, put insulation all around
the sides of the pool and then refill the pool.


Blog post on insulating a pool.... I'm not sure the numbers justify
the cost.
Properly planned & executed... an insulated pool could be done cheaper
& then the numbers might pencil.

A cover is the most important thing

On May 24, 9:22*pm, "
wrote:
On May 24, 1:13*pm, harry wrote:









On May 24, 3:42*pm, "
wrote:

On May 24, 1:04*am, harry wrote:

On May 23, 6:12*pm, wrote:

On Thu, 23 May 2013 00:12:12 -0700 (PDT), harry

wrote:
On May 23, 2:46*am, wrote:
I'm thinking of installing a heat pump for my 15x30 pool.

I'm told that the correct unit for my needs (an Aquacal TropiCal) puts out 112,000 BTUs (40 amps/5.8 KW). *I'm thinking that a larger unit that puts out 141,000 BTUs (50 amps/6.4KW), would heat the pool quicker and require less time on, thus use, in theory, less electricity - but it's about $500 more expensive than the small

unit. *We'll probably only use the pool on the weekends. *Not sure how long it will take to break even on this with running it for only a couple days per week.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions about this? *Is my thinking skewed? *Is it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!Ads not by this site

You would be better getting some sort of solar heater.

Running a swimming pool is always going to be expensive.
Gas would be far cheaper than electricity.
Electricity is the worst possible option.
If your pool is near the house you may be able to use the home
heating furnace if you have a wet system.
You need a good insulated pool cover. Ideally there should
be insulation between the pool and the ground too.

The economics of turning a pool heating off are very dodgy
as it takes days for the pool to reheat.
Reducing temperature may be an option.

Your incoming power supply may not be big enough in any event.
You may need a three phase supply.

Harry is right, solar is the way to go but if you are very far north,
that may still not be enough.

Most of the pools in my neighborhood (SW Fla) are solar heated. The
practical limit for an uncovered pool is really only about 10 degrees
above the average daily ambient temp. You may end up with 80 degree
water in the afternoon on a 70 degree day but by morning that will be
back down in the low 70s. A cover makes a huge difference in that..
My neighbor across the street has more collector area than pool
surface and they can hold 86 or higher most of the winter (45-50f at
night)
When it gets much colder than that, they don't do as well.

I have less collector than pool area and no cover. The only thing
solar does for me in knock the chill off in the spring and fall.
I changed the plumbing so I can switch over to the spa. THAT is a
heluva deal.
When the solars are useless on the pool, I can still get the spa up in
the high 80s or low 90s before I kick on the heater.
In the spring and fall, I can get all the heat I need from the solars
in the day and only need the heater to maintain the heat until I am
done with it
We do not heat the spa with the heater unless we are in it.

Typically the only controller on a solar pool heater is a timer on the
pump.
I am going to tie the spa solar into the thermostat tho because this
spring I caught it at 120 *;-)

Harry You virtually never see 3 phase at a residence but we do see 400
amp single phase service on a big house.

As gee whiz info, my wife's country club has 7 heated pools,
uncovered.
They can't hold the temp with 10 ton heat pumps on the small pools if
we have a cold snap. The big pool has 30 tons

I will try to get the cost, they are all on separate meters.

Most houses here have electricity here is at 230volts/single *phase/
100A.

I'm sorry for you harry. *If true, just another sign of the
inadequacy of the Britts.

**There is no 120 volts except on construction sites when step

down transformers are used.

Who cares? *The pool heat pumps all run on 240V.

However if you have more than say 15Kw continuous heating, you will be
expected to get three phase (depending on location).

That's just 62 amps. *What exactly is the problem with
having a 150A service that makes 3 phase necessary?
150A services are very common here, the min pretty
much that's put in today for a house. *200A are very
common too. *A friend has 300A. *All those are done
using single phase, nothing unusual at all.

Electric heating of swimming pools is virtually unheard of due to
cost, there is a gas supply to 99% of places.

It's not really electric heating. *That terms is typically used
to refer to resistance heating. *The pools use heat pumps,
which are referred to as heat pumps. *If gas is the only
viable option in the UK, how do you explain this:

http://www.dreamheatpumps.co.uk/

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350793470032

http://www.lighthousepools.co.uk/

Like I said, if they let you out of the nuthouse at
least once in a while, maybe you'd see some stuff.

Virtually never used.

Sure, who should we believe? *You who doesn't even have
any experience with a pool or all the companies obviously
selling heat pump based heaters?

Most homes here have wet heating systems. This boiler can easily be
used to heat the pool via a heat exchanger.

What most do doesn't mean there isn't a viable market for heat
pump systems. *Most pools here in the US don't have
heat pump systems either. *Matters not a wit. *If the
application is right, they can be the right choice.



Where there is no gas, either oil or propane is used.
Heat pumps are being offered in the last ten years or so but there are
icing problems on the evaporators in our climate.

Icing on a pool heat pump? *Icing indeed!

Due to the climate, outdoor pools are unusual here, Of the few that
exist a tiny percentage are heated.
Indoor pools are obviously vastly more expensive and these too are
rare.
How many outdoor pools are there in Alaska?

Doesn't the evaporator in you freezer ice up you dolt?
Why therefore shouldn't the evaporator in any heat pump ice up?