Okay, more like a dumb theory but want to solicit opinions regardless...

I have a 16' x 32' x 9' deep pool. I live in an area where in the day
electricity is double the cost than at night. However, running the
filtration system at night means lots of heat loss and water loss,
therefore, it's easier to keep the pool warmer and cleaner during the
day when electricity is the priciest. by moving the water during the
day, I can preserve and capture the sun's heat throughout the pool, with
minimal water loss under the solar cover.

I have a 90 degree elbow on a 1.5" ID pipe intake to the pump. I have
no elbows on the outtake back to the pool on 1.5" ID pipe, but do have
1.25" barbs inside that outtake pipe.

Is it worth my while to take the 90 degree elbow out and use a flex pipe
to have a sweeping radius to increase water flow? My filter is running
at 12 PSI under current setup, but it's rated for 50 PSI.

I want to know if there is a possible gpm increase by removing that
elbow. If I can move more water in less than I can save on electricity,
or have the electricity being used now, move more water.

Anyone have any thots on this dumb theory?

If anyone knows of any decent pipe flow calculator website, pass it on
to me.

Hench writes:

Okay, more like a dumb theory but want to solicit opinions regardless...

I have a 16' x 32' x 9' deep pool. I live in an area where in the day
electricity is double the cost than at night. However, running the
filtration system at night means lots of heat loss and water loss,
therefore, it's easier to keep the pool warmer and cleaner during the
day when electricity is the priciest. by moving the water during the
day, I can preserve and capture the sun's heat throughout the pool,
with minimal water loss under the solar cover.

I have a 90 degree elbow on a 1.5" ID pipe intake to the pump. I have
no elbows on the outtake back to the pool on 1.5" ID pipe, but do have
1.25" barbs inside that outtake pipe.

Is it worth my while to take the 90 degree elbow out and use a flex
pipe to have a sweeping radius to increase water flow? My filter is
running at 12 PSI under current setup, but it's rated for 50 PSI.

I want to know if there is a possible gpm increase by removing that
elbow. If I can move more water in less than I can save on
electricity, or have the electricity being used now, move more water.

Anyone have any thots on this dumb theory?

If anyone knows of any decent pipe flow calculator website, pass it on
to me.

The terms "water flow pipe bend" bring up hits that calculate the force
a bend causes, but they don't compare a sharp bend to a gradual bend.

My intuition tells me the difference is small, but when you look at this
video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF4NlG3uRco

you can actually see the turbulence that water being bent creates.

--
Dan Espen

Hench wrote:
Okay, more like a dumb theory but want to solicit opinions
regardless...
I have a 16' x 32' x 9' deep pool. I live in an area where in the day
electricity is double the cost than at night. However, running the
filtration system at night means lots of heat loss and water loss,
therefore, it's easier to keep the pool warmer and cleaner during the
day when electricity is the priciest.

Why does water loss occur if you run the filter at night? Why does heat loss?
You could insulate the pump , filter, and plumbing if it really makes any
difference.



by moving the water during the
day, I can preserve and capture the sun's heat throughout the pool,
with minimal water loss under the solar cover.

I have a 90 degree elbow on a 1.5" ID pipe intake to the pump. I have
no elbows on the outtake back to the pool on 1.5" ID pipe, but do have
1.25" barbs inside that outtake pipe.

Is it worth my while to take the 90 degree elbow out and use a flex
pipe to have a sweeping radius to increase water flow? My filter is
running at 12 PSI under current setup, but it's rated for 50 PSI.

It's probably not going to make a measurable difference.


I want to know if there is a possible gpm increase by removing that
elbow. If I can move more water in less than I can save on
electricity, or have the electricity being used now, move more water.

Anyone have any thots on this dumb theory?

Get a 2 speed or high efficiency pump and run it at low speed. That'll save you
far more.

On May 11, 3:58*am, "Bob F" wrote:
Hench wrote:
Okay, more like a dumb theory but want to solicit opinions
regardless...
I have a 16' x 32' x 9' deep pool. *I live in an area where in the day
electricity is double the cost than at night. However, running the
filtration system at night means lots of heat loss and water loss,
therefore, it's easier to keep the pool warmer and cleaner during the
day when electricity is the priciest.

Why does water loss occur if you run the filter at night? Why does heat loss?
You could insulate the pump , filter, and plumbing if it really makes any
difference.

* by moving the water during the

day, I can preserve and capture the sun's heat throughout the pool,
with minimal water loss under the solar cover.

I have a 90 degree elbow on a 1.5" ID pipe intake to the pump. *I have
no elbows on the outtake back to the pool on 1.5" ID pipe, but do have
1.25" barbs inside that outtake pipe.

Is it worth my while to take the 90 degree elbow out and use a flex
pipe to have a sweeping radius to increase water flow? *My filter is
running at 12 PSI under current setup, but it's rated for 50 PSI.

It's probably not going to make a measurable difference.



I want to know if there is a possible gpm increase by removing that
elbow. *If I can move more water in less than I can save on
electricity, or have the electricity being used now, move more water.

Anyone have any thots on this dumb theory?

Get a 2 speed or high efficiency pump and run it at low speed. That'll save you
far more.

The above is good advice. You can get pumps now that have a permanent
magnet motor instead of an induction motor that use half the power.
You might even find your pump is oversized so do the calculation.

Heat loss from PVC pipes is not great at these low temperatures. The
important thing is the pool cover and how good an insulator it is.
Also how well it t fits, a badly fitting one is useless. Also reduces
evaporation losses.

Also frequent back washing of your filters keeps them efficient.

Determine the minimum time you need to run the plant to keep the water
quality acceptable.

If the pool is used infrequently, the plant is likely to be grossly
oversized and need only be run for a few hours per day.

Use flocculants to improve the filter efficiency which will mean you
need to run it for fewer hours/day.

On 5/10/2013 7:05 PM, Hench wrote:
Okay, more like a dumb theory but want to solicit opinions regardless...

I have a 16' x 32' x 9' deep pool. I live in an area where in the day
electricity is double the cost than at night. However, running the
filtration system at night means lots of heat loss and water loss,
therefore, it's easier to keep the pool warmer and cleaner during the
day when electricity is the priciest.

Unfortunately, filtering at night doesn't work. You need the chlorine
circulating through the system when the sun is out. It's too bad because
you can save quite a bit if you have time-of-day metering.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-05-31/business/0705290395_1_chlorine-all-pool-service-supply-recreational-water-illnesses

On 5/11/2013 4:05 AM, harry wrote:


Get a 2 speed or high efficiency pump and run it at low speed. That'll save you
far more.

The above is good advice. You can get pumps now that have a permanent
magnet motor instead of an induction motor that use half the power.
You might even find your pump is oversized so do the calculation.

Heat loss from PVC pipes is not great at these low temperatures. The
important thing is the pool cover and how good an insulator it is.
Also how well it t fits, a badly fitting one is useless. Also reduces
evaporation losses.

When I'm talking about heat loss, I'm talking abut evaporation from the
surface of the pool, not from the pipes. Most pools lose their heat
from evaporation at the surface. Where I live the summer air at
nighttime can be cooler than the water so the rate of evaporation can be
high.

By running the pool filter at night during cheaper electrical rates, i
was discovering my water bill was going uo proportionality because i had
high water loss.

On Sat, 11 May 2013 03:23:49 -0700, sms wrote:

Unfortunately, filtering at night doesn't work. You need the chlorine
circulating through the system when the sun is out

I'm no expert ... but I don't understand how pool chlorine needs
sunlight in order to work?

Anyway, as some of you know, in doing a minor plumbing re-work on
my pad, and, in doing so, I've been researching this very same topic,
so some of the California papers I've found may be useful to the OP.

Draft report for Residential Swimming Pools, by PG&E & Sempra Energy,
dated February 19, 2007:
http://tinyurl.com/c3sqhva

Measure Information Template Residential Swimming Pools, 2008 California
Building Energy Efficiency Standards, Pacific Gas & Electric Company,
dated July 6, 2006:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/title24/200...IMING_POOL.PDF

Analysis of Standards Options For Residential Pool Pumps, Motors, and
Controls, Prepared for Gary B. Fernstrom, PG&E, by Davis Energy Group,
Energy Solutions, dated May 12, 2004:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/..._Pool_Pump.pdf

Staff v Workshop Before The California Energy Resources Conservation and
Development Commission, In the Matter of 2008 California Building Energy
Deficiency Standards, by the California Energy Commission, dated
July 12, 2006:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/title24/200...IMING_POOL.PDF

You can get flex pvc pipe he
http://flexpvc.com

On Sat, 11 May 2013 06:34:18 -0400, Hench wrote in
Re Pool Pump plumbing and Electrial
question::

When I'm talking about heat loss, I'm talking abut evaporation from the
surface of the pool, not from the pipes. Most pools lose their heat
from evaporation at the surface. Where I live the summer air at
nighttime can be cooler than the water so the rate of evaporation can be
high.

By running the pool filter at night during cheaper electrical rates, i
was discovering my water bill was going uo proportionality because i had
high water loss.

You should have a cover on the pool while your run the nightly
cleaning. That will significantly cut both heat and water loss.

On 5/11/2013 7:50 AM, CRNG wrote:
On Sat, 11 May 2013 06:34:18 -0400, Hench wrote in
Re Pool Pump plumbing and Electrial
question::

When I'm talking about heat loss, I'm talking abut evaporation from the
surface of the pool, not from the pipes. Most pools lose their heat
from evaporation at the surface. Where I live the summer air at
nighttime can be cooler than the water so the rate of evaporation can be
high.

By running the pool filter at night during cheaper electrical rates, i
was discovering my water bill was going uo proportionality because i had
high water loss.

You should have a cover on the pool while your run the nightly
cleaning. That will significantly cut both heat and water loss.


Yes I do have a cover. I may be purchasing a new one this year as the
old one is about at the end of it's life. Researching covers this past
week.

On 5/11/2013 7:43 AM, Danny D wrote:
On Sat, 11 May 2013 03:23:49 -0700, sms wrote:

Unfortunately, filtering at night doesn't work. You need the chlorine
circulating through the system when the sun is out

I'm no expert ... but I don't understand how pool chlorine needs
sunlight in order to work?

Anyway, as some of you know, in doing a minor plumbing re-work on
my pad, and, in doing so, I've been researching this very same topic,
so some of the California papers I've found may be useful to the OP.



Thank you for posting these links. Looks like some good reading. I
appreciate it.

I'm in Canada where the weather can still get a bit chilly at night some
weeks so it's been a balancing act to save electricity and preserve
heated water.

On May 11, 6:23*am, sms wrote:
On 5/10/2013 7:05 PM, Hench wrote:

Okay, more like a dumb theory but want to solicit opinions regardless....

I have a 16' x 32' x 9' deep pool. *I live in an area where in the day
electricity is double the cost than at night. However, running the
filtration system at night means lots of heat loss and water loss,
therefore, it's easier to keep the pool warmer and cleaner during the
day when electricity is the priciest.

Unfortunately, filtering at night doesn't work. You need the chlorine
circulating through the system when the sun is out. It's too bad because
you can save quite a bit if you have time-of-day metering.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-05-31/business/0705290395_1_c...

Most of what that article says is either wrong or irrelevant



"The main reason for running the pool pump during the daylight hours
is to ensure proper sanitation. Chlorine is degraded by sunlight, so
there is a larger demand on the chlorine residual during the day."

Yes, some of the chlorine is going to be degraded by sunlight, but so
what?
I've had my pool sit all day without circulating, checked the chlorine
level and
there isn't a measurable difference. It's still at a perfectly
acceptable range,
the same at 5PM as it was at 8AM. That's what stabilizer is for.


"When the pool pump is operating, the circulation in the pool
disperses the chlorine throughout the pool."

That's true, but dispersing it at night works about the same. And
once dispersed, it doesn't just change dramatically in 12 hours.



"Also, most pools use some type of chlorinator that adds chlorine only
when the pump is running."

I think that is flat out BS.


"By running the pump during the day, it helps keep the chlorine at a
constant level."

I agree in theory, it would keep it more constant during the day. But
I say
it's plenty constant enough with the pump off during the day. Absent
a problem,
who cares.


"Use of the pool also consumes the chlorine, and most swim during the
day."

Again this apparently assumes you have an inline chlorinator.


"Having the proper levels of chlorine helps kill algae spores, germs,
bacteria and other contaminants as soon as they enter the pool. If the
chlorine level is too low, or not dispersed evenly throughout the
pool, it gives these "intruders" the possibility of gaining a toe-hold
and starting to grow. This can result in cloudy water, algae blooms
and even recreational water illnesses that can be transmitted between
bathers."

Proper level of chlorine and filtering at night are not mutually
exclusive.


"Many pool owners are starting to install alternative methods of
chlorination and sanitation on their pools. These include salt
chlorination and ozone. The same rules apply to these as with
conventional chlorination."

Which also appears to be irrelevant.



"The only way to make sure your pool is safe for bathers is using a
good quality test kit to make sure the water is properly sanitized,
says Steve Bludsworth, owner of All-Pool Service & Supply in Orlando."

That's about the only thing here I agree with.

On May 11, 7:43*am, Danny D wrote:
On Sat, 11 May 2013 03:23:49 -0700, sms wrote:
Unfortunately, filtering at night doesn't work. You need the chlorine
circulating through the system when the sun is out

I'm no expert ... but I don't understand how pool chlorine needs
sunlight in order to work?

It doesn't need sunlight to work. In fact, just the opposite is true,
sunlight kills the chlorine, which is why stabilizer is added to
reduce
that effect. IMO, that article is BS. It's based on the premise
that
when the pump isn't running, the chlorine level is going to change
dramatically, to the point that proper sanitization is no longer
achieved. So, they claim you have to filter during the day to
keep the pool chlorine at the proper levels when people are
supposed to be swimming.

Two more points. You can easily prove to yourself this is BS.
If you filter at night, I'm sure you've at some point checked the
chlorine level at 8PM. Is it about the same as it was at 8AM
or is too low? In my experience, it does not have a noticeable
change when tested.

Second, if you're concerned about keeping the water better
filtered when people are in the pool or if there are a lot of
people in the pool, then you can put the
pump on when people are actually using it that day and then just not
filter that night




Anyway, as some of you know, in doing a minor plumbing re-work on
my pad, and, in doing so, I've been researching this very same topic,
so some of the California papers I've found may be useful to the OP.

Draft report for Residential Swimming Pools, by PG&E & Sempra Energy,
dated February 19, 2007:http://tinyurl.com/c3sqhva

Measure Information Template Residential Swimming Pools, 2008 California
Building Energy Efficiency Standards, Pacific Gas & Electric Company,
dated July 6, 2006:http://www.energy.ca.gov/title24/200...aking/document...

Analysis of Standards Options For Residential Pool Pumps, Motors, and
Controls, Prepared for Gary B. Fernstrom, PG&E, by Davis Energy Group,
Energy Solutions, dated May 12, 2004:http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/...ments/case_stu...

Staff v Workshop Before The California Energy Resources Conservation and
Development Commission, In the Matter of 2008 California Building Energy
Deficiency Standards, by the California Energy Commission, dated
July 12, 2006:http://www.energy.ca.gov/title24/200...aking/document...

You can get flex pvc pipe hehttp://flexpvc.com

Regarding the elbows, it's such a minor factor, IMO, it's not going
to
make a significant enough difference to matter. Each elbow counts
as X feet of equivalent pipe in determining the effect. For a short
radius 2", it's 9 ft. For a long radius, it's 3.5 ft. Typically for
a pool,
long radius are used, so hopefully that's what you have.

So, if you add up all the feet of pipe, all the other elbows, the
filter,
etc, what % difference do you think 3.5ft of pipe would make?
Plus even if you went with flex PVC, to get the radius down even
more, you'd have to use maybe 1.5ft of pipe anyway, so now you're
only talking about a 2ft length difference.

What would make a difference is using a two speed pump, as
someone else suggested. The energy required to push the water
goes as the cube of the speed. So, you could run at half speed,
filter twice as long, move the same amount of water and use a
lot less energy.

On 5/11/2013 9:42 AM, wrote:


What would make a difference is using a two speed pump, as
someone else suggested. The energy required to push the water
goes as the cube of the speed. So, you could run at half speed,
filter twice as long, move the same amount of water and use a
lot less energy.


Yup. A few others in this thread have suggested focusing on the pump.
if removing one elbow is not going to make much impact on flow. To be
honest I suspected this but wanted to hear from others...

On Sat, 11 May 2013 08:39:21 -0400, Hench wrote:

Yes I do have a cover. I may be purchasing a new one this year as the
old one is about at the end of it's life. Researching covers this past
week.

Please post what you find out about fixing pool covers!

When I moved in, I was quoted a few thousand dollars to fix mine,
but some day I want to see if I can try to fix it myself.

Here's a picture I snapped for you just now:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12904959.jpg

On Sat, 11 May 2013 06:42:54 -0700, wrote:

For a short radius 2", it's 9 ft.
For a long radius, it's 3.5 ft.
Typically for a pool, long radius are used

Yikes!

I have no idea 'what' radius I bought from Home Depot.

Is this a long or short radius?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12905177.jpg

On May 11, 11:34*am, Hench wrote:
On 5/11/2013 4:05 AM, harry wrote:



Get a 2 speed or high efficiency pump and run it at low speed. That'll save you
far more.

The above is good advice. You can get pumps now that have a permanent
magnet motor instead of an induction motor that use half the power.
You might even find your pump is oversized so do the calculation.

Heat loss from PVC pipes is not great at these low temperatures. The
important thing is the pool cover and how good an insulator it is.
Also how well it t fits, a badly fitting one is useless. *Also reduces
evaporation losses.

When I'm talking about heat loss, I'm talking abut evaporation from the
surface of the pool, not from the pipes. *Most pools lose their heat
from evaporation at the surface. *Where I live the summer air at
nighttime can be cooler than the water so the rate of evaporation can be
high.

By running the pool filter at night during cheaper electrical rates, i
was discovering my water bill was going uo proportionality because i had
high water loss.

So how is the water evaporating at night, don't you have the cover
on? The cover should be on at all times when the pool is out of use.
Prevents evaporation.
Keeps out the muck & leaves.
Reduces heat loss.
Reduces use of chemicals.


Most water loss through evaporation occurs when the cover is off and
humidity is low, air temperature is high and there is a breeze. The
pool cover stops 99% of this.

On Sat, 11 May 2013 15:00:26 +0000 (UTC), Danny D
wrote:

On Sat, 11 May 2013 08:39:21 -0400, Hench wrote:

Yes I do have a cover. I may be purchasing a new one this year as the
old one is about at the end of it's life. Researching covers this past
week.

Please post what you find out about fixing pool covers!

When I moved in, I was quoted a few thousand dollars to fix mine,
but some day I want to see if I can try to fix it myself.

Here's a picture I snapped for you just now:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12904959.jpg


I just used a "solar blanket" for about $200. It was still in good
shape when I sold my house ten years later. It doesn't work as
advertised but it does float on the surface of the pool and it is easy
to put on and take off. Without an expensive reel, it does take two
people to take off, though.

I found, as expected, that it's only purpose is to cut evaporative
cooling and reduce water loss. When I needed to add heat to the pool,
running the pump during the day worked. When I needed to shed heat,
run it at night. I could vary the pool temperature up and down 2F
pretty easily just doing that. I had an X10 module as the timer.
Worked very well.

On May 11, 4:14*pm, Danny D wrote:
On Sat, 11 May 2013 06:42:54 -0700, wrote:
For a short radius 2", it's 9 ft.
For a long radius, it's 3.5 ft.
Typically for a pool, long radius are used

Yikes!

I have no idea 'what' radius I bought from Home Depot.

Is this a long or short radius?
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12905177.jpg

That is definitely a short radius bend.
Should only be used when physical constraints necessitate it. (ie
restricted space)

On May 11, 2:06*pm, harry wrote:
On May 11, 11:34*am, Hench wrote:





On 5/11/2013 4:05 AM, harry wrote:

Get a 2 speed or high efficiency pump and run it at low speed. That'll save you
far more.

The above is good advice. You can get pumps now that have a permanent
magnet motor instead of an induction motor that use half the power.
You might even find your pump is oversized so do the calculation.

Heat loss from PVC pipes is not great at these low temperatures. The
important thing is the pool cover and how good an insulator it is.
Also how well it t fits, a badly fitting one is useless. *Also reduces
evaporation losses.

When I'm talking about heat loss, I'm talking abut evaporation from the
surface of the pool, not from the pipes. *Most pools lose their heat
from evaporation at the surface. *Where I live the summer air at
nighttime can be cooler than the water so the rate of evaporation can be
high.

By running the pool filter at night during cheaper electrical rates, i
was discovering my water bill was going uo proportionality because i had
high water loss.

So how is the water evaporating at night, don't you have the cover
on? *The cover should be on at all times *when the pool is out of use..
Prevents evaporation.
Keeps out the muck & leaves.
Reduces heat loss.
Reduces use of chemicals.

Most water loss through evaporation occurs when the cover is off and
humidity is low, air temperature is high *and there is a breeze. *The
pool cover stops 99% of this.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Spoken like the true village idiot.

On 5/11/2013 2:13 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 11 May 2013 15:00:26 +0000 (UTC), Danny D
wrote:

On Sat, 11 May 2013 08:39:21 -0400, Hench wrote:

Yes I do have a cover. I may be purchasing a new one this year as the
old one is about at the end of it's life. Researching covers this past
week.

Please post what you find out about fixing pool covers!

When I moved in, I was quoted a few thousand dollars to fix mine,
but some day I want to see if I can try to fix it myself.

Here's a picture I snapped for you just now:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12904959.jpg


I just used a "solar blanket" for about $200. It was still in good
shape when I sold my house ten years later. It doesn't work as
advertised but it does float on the surface of the pool and it is easy
to put on and take off. Without an expensive reel, it does take two
people to take off, though.

I found, as expected, that it's only purpose is to cut evaporative
cooling and reduce water loss. When I needed to add heat to the pool,
running the pump during the day worked. When I needed to shed heat,
run it at night. I could vary the pool temperature up and down 2F
pretty easily just doing that. I had an X10 module as the timer.
Worked very well.



Yeah my results are the same as yours. I dunno what you mean by F
though. My solar blanket is due to be replaced and I might buy one that
has an aluminum foil/sheet in it to keep more heat in the water. Still
have to research though. Sounds too good to be true at all.

On 5/11/2013 2:06 PM, harry wrote:
On May 11, 11:34 am, Hench wrote:
On 5/11/2013 4:05 AM, harry wrote:



Get a 2 speed or high efficiency pump and run it at low speed. That'll save you
far more.

The above is good advice. You can get pumps now that have a permanent
magnet motor instead of an induction motor that use half the power.
You might even find your pump is oversized so do the calculation.

Heat loss from PVC pipes is not great at these low temperatures. The
important thing is the pool cover and how good an insulator it is.
Also how well it t fits, a badly fitting one is useless. Also reduces
evaporation losses.

When I'm talking about heat loss, I'm talking abut evaporation from the
surface of the pool, not from the pipes. Most pools lose their heat
from evaporation at the surface. Where I live the summer air at
nighttime can be cooler than the water so the rate of evaporation can be
high.

By running the pool filter at night during cheaper electrical rates, i
was discovering my water bill was going uo proportionality because i had
high water loss.

So how is the water evaporating at night, don't you have the cover
on? The cover should be on at all times when the pool is out of use.
Prevents evaporation.
Keeps out the muck & leaves.
Reduces heat loss.
Reduces use of chemicals.


Most water loss through evaporation occurs when the cover is off and
humidity is low, air temperature is high and there is a breeze. The
pool cover stops 99% of this.


No cover...this isn't for swimming, and the pond is pretty well
protected from stuff blowing in. There is a mock cherry tree next to
the pond, and it's junk falls in...petals and stems. Most floats, some
sinks. Pond is only about 18" deep at deepest, so not that hard to get
stuff out with rake, brush, or shop vac. Just found a pool vacuum that
gets the algae pretty well....I will leave some for the fish. Other
water plants (presently only one w. lily) should take up some of the
nutrients and keep the algae down. The waterfall is losing a little
water, so it refreshes often....float valve for that.

On 5/11/2013 4:39 PM, Norminn wrote:
On 5/11/2013 2:06 PM, harry wrote:
On May 11, 11:34 am, Hench wrote:
On 5/11/2013 4:05 AM, harry wrote:



Get a 2 speed or high efficiency pump and run it at low speed.
That'll save you
far more.

The above is good advice. You can get pumps now that have a permanent
magnet motor instead of an induction motor that use half the power.
You might even find your pump is oversized so do the calculation.

Heat loss from PVC pipes is not great at these low temperatures. The
important thing is the pool cover and how good an insulator it is.
Also how well it t fits, a badly fitting one is useless. Also reduces
evaporation losses.

When I'm talking about heat loss, I'm talking abut evaporation from the
surface of the pool, not from the pipes. Most pools lose their heat
from evaporation at the surface. Where I live the summer air at
nighttime can be cooler than the water so the rate of evaporation can be
high.

By running the pool filter at night during cheaper electrical rates, i
was discovering my water bill was going uo proportionality because i had
high water loss.

So how is the water evaporating at night, don't you have the cover
on? The cover should be on at all times when the pool is out of use.
Prevents evaporation.
Keeps out the muck & leaves.
Reduces heat loss.
Reduces use of chemicals.


Most water loss through evaporation occurs when the cover is off and
humidity is low, air temperature is high and there is a breeze. The
pool cover stops 99% of this.


No cover...this isn't for swimming, and the pond is pretty well
protected from stuff blowing in. There is a mock cherry tree next to
the pond, and it's junk falls in...petals and stems. Most floats, some
sinks. Pond is only about 18" deep at deepest, so not that hard to get
stuff out with rake, brush, or shop vac. Just found a pool vacuum that
gets the algae pretty well....I will leave some for the fish. Other
water plants (presently only one w. lily) should take up some of the
nutrients and keep the algae down. The waterfall is losing a little
water, so it refreshes often....float valve for that.

Oops....replied to the wrong thread.

On May 10, 7:58*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
Hench wrote:
Okay, more like a dumb theory but want to solicit opinions
regardless...
I have a 16' x 32' x 9' deep pool. *I live in an area where in the day
electricity is double the cost than at night. However, running the
filtration system at night means lots of heat loss and water loss,
therefore, it's easier to keep the pool warmer and cleaner during the
day when electricity is the priciest.

Why does water loss occur if you run the filter at night? Why does heat loss?
You could insulate the pump , filter, and plumbing if it really makes any
difference.

* by moving the water during the

day, I can preserve and capture the sun's heat throughout the pool,
with minimal water loss under the solar cover.

I have a 90 degree elbow on a 1.5" ID pipe intake to the pump. *I have
no elbows on the outtake back to the pool on 1.5" ID pipe, but do have
1.25" barbs inside that outtake pipe.

Is it worth my while to take the 90 degree elbow out and use a flex
pipe to have a sweeping radius to increase water flow? *My filter is
running at 12 PSI under current setup, but it's rated for 50 PSI.

It's probably not going to make a measurable difference.



I want to know if there is a possible gpm increase by removing that
elbow. *If I can move more water in less than I can save on
electricity, or have the electricity being used now, move more water.

Anyone have any thots on this dumb theory?

Get a 2 speed or high efficiency pump and run it at low speed. That'll save you
far more.

Bob F covers all the important points....

A 2 speed pump will save way more money than an elbow replacement....

On May 11, 9:39*pm, Norminn wrote:
On 5/11/2013 2:06 PM, harry wrote:









On May 11, 11:34 am, Hench wrote:
On 5/11/2013 4:05 AM, harry wrote:

Get a 2 speed or high efficiency pump and run it at low speed. That'll save you
far more.

The above is good advice. You can get pumps now that have a permanent
magnet motor instead of an induction motor that use half the power.
You might even find your pump is oversized so do the calculation.

Heat loss from PVC pipes is not great at these low temperatures. The
important thing is the pool cover and how good an insulator it is.
Also how well it t fits, a badly fitting one is useless. *Also reduces
evaporation losses.

When I'm talking about heat loss, I'm talking abut evaporation from the
surface of the pool, not from the pipes. *Most pools lose their heat
from evaporation at the surface. *Where I live the summer air at
nighttime can be cooler than the water so the rate of evaporation can be
high.

By running the pool filter at night during cheaper electrical rates, i
was discovering my water bill was going uo proportionality because i had
high water loss.

So how is the water evaporating at night, don't you have the cover
on? *The cover should be on at all times *when the pool is out of use.
Prevents evaporation.
Keeps out the muck & leaves.
Reduces heat loss.
Reduces use of chemicals.

Most water loss through evaporation occurs when the cover is off and
humidity is low, air temperature is high *and there is a breeze. *The
pool cover stops 99% of this.

No cover...this isn't for swimming, and the pond is pretty well
protected from stuff blowing in. *There is a mock cherry tree next to
the pond, and it's junk falls in...petals and stems. *Most floats, some
sinks. *Pond is only about 18" deep at deepest, so not that hard to get
stuff out with rake, brush, or shop vac. *Just found a pool vacuum that
gets the algae pretty well....I will leave some for the fish. *Other
water plants (presently only one w. lily) should take up some of the
nutrients and keep the algae down. *The waterfall is losing a little
water, so it refreshes often....float valve for that.

I thought this thread was about swimming pools not garden/wildlife
ponds.
Entirely different problems.

On May 11, 11:14*am, Danny D wrote:
On Sat, 11 May 2013 06:42:54 -0700, wrote:
For a short radius 2", it's 9 ft.
For a long radius, it's 3.5 ft.
Typically for a pool, long radius are used

Yikes!

I have no idea 'what' radius I bought from Home Depot.

Is this a long or short radius?
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12905177.jpg

Short

On Sat, 11 May 2013 15:07:49 -0400, Hench wrote:

On 5/11/2013 2:13 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 11 May 2013 15:00:26 +0000 (UTC), Danny D
wrote:

On Sat, 11 May 2013 08:39:21 -0400, Hench wrote:

Yes I do have a cover. I may be purchasing a new one this year as the
old one is about at the end of it's life. Researching covers this past
week.

Please post what you find out about fixing pool covers!

When I moved in, I was quoted a few thousand dollars to fix mine,
but some day I want to see if I can try to fix it myself.

Here's a picture I snapped for you just now:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12904959.jpg


I just used a "solar blanket" for about $200. It was still in good
shape when I sold my house ten years later. It doesn't work as
advertised but it does float on the surface of the pool and it is easy
to put on and take off. Without an expensive reel, it does take two
people to take off, though.

I found, as expected, that it's only purpose is to cut evaporative
cooling and reduce water loss. When I needed to add heat to the pool,
running the pump during the day worked. When I needed to shed heat,
run it at night. I could vary the pool temperature up and down 2F
pretty easily just doing that. I had an X10 module as the timer.
Worked very well.



Yeah my results are the same as yours. I dunno what you mean by F
though.

F==Fahrenheit, Run it in the sunlight and raise the by two degrees.
Run it at night and lower it 2 degrees. Four degrees total, which is
significant.

My solar blanket is due to be replaced and I might buy one that
has an aluminum foil/sheet in it to keep more heat in the water. Still
have to research though. Sounds too good to be true at all.

Hench wrote:
On 5/11/2013 7:43 AM, Danny D wrote:
On Sat, 11 May 2013 03:23:49 -0700, sms wrote:

Unfortunately, filtering at night doesn't work. You need the
chlorine circulating through the system when the sun is out

I'm no expert ... but I don't understand how pool chlorine needs
sunlight in order to work?

Anyway, as some of you know, in doing a minor plumbing re-work on
my pad, and, in doing so, I've been researching this very same topic,
so some of the California papers I've found may be useful to the OP.



Thank you for posting these links. Looks like some good reading. I
appreciate it.

I'm in Canada where the weather can still get a bit chilly at night
some weeks so it's been a balancing act to save electricity and
preserve heated water.

I've still seen no explanation of whay pumping at night should increase heat
loss.

On Sun, 12 May 2013 22:26:08 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

Hench wrote:
On 5/11/2013 7:43 AM, Danny D wrote:
On Sat, 11 May 2013 03:23:49 -0700, sms wrote:

Unfortunately, filtering at night doesn't work. You need the
chlorine circulating through the system when the sun is out

I'm no expert ... but I don't understand how pool chlorine needs
sunlight in order to work?

Anyway, as some of you know, in doing a minor plumbing re-work on
my pad, and, in doing so, I've been researching this very same topic,
so some of the California papers I've found may be useful to the OP.



Thank you for posting these links. Looks like some good reading. I
appreciate it.

I'm in Canada where the weather can still get a bit chilly at night
some weeks so it's been a balancing act to save electricity and
preserve heated water.

I've still seen no explanation of whay pumping at night should increase heat
loss.

Tit mixes the water. Eradicative and evaporative cooling tends to
cool only a top layer (~6", IME) of water. Running the filter brings
the warmer water to the surface. The reverse is true during sunlight
hours.

On Sat, 11 May 2013 11:13:46 -0700, harry wrote:

Is this a long or short radius?
Â*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12905177.jpg

That is definitely a short radius bend.
Should only be used when physical constraints necessitate it. (ie
restricted space)

Drat. I never knew there was a distinction! Until now.

I also didn't know enough to even think to ask about a distinction.

In hindsight, I would have used long-radius elbows had I known of
their very existence, especially since I had tons of room:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12924978.jpg

It seems, upon looking just now at my original professionally
installed plumbing, that there were no long-radius elbows used:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12925050.jpg

That's odd, because there was plenty of room, so, I wonder why
the builders opted for short-radius elbows instead of the more
efficient longer-radius elbows (which can't possibly have cost
all that much more, can they?).