On 4/3/2013 8:23 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 11:15:42 -0600,
wrote:

On 4/2/2013 3:42 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The reason they want you to turn off the power is so you can take the wire nuts off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

Isn't that a catch-22? Until you have the wire nuts off, you have no way of telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when the power is off.

Worse, with that many wires, you may have more than one circuit, from more than one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still could be.
Didn't get in on the start of this thread, but if the red and black
are on outlets, they are likely splits - and they WILL be on different
circuits - but by law they need to be on tied breakers od fuse pulls
that cannot have one fuse removed at a time.. Thing is, you don't know
who wired it, when, and how - so you don't bet your life on it.

In the US, the NEC did not require common disconnect for a multiwire
branch circuit. (An Edison circuit is a multiwire, but a multiwire can
be 3-phase.) Then the NEC required a common disconnect for multiwire
that supplied a split wired receptacle - one circuit to each receptacle.
Now the NEC requires a common disconnect for any multiwire branch circuit.

I have not seen many split wired receptacles with 2 circuits, but they
are around, most likely in kitchens. Elsewhere likely half the
receptacle is switched.

If the wire is actually #12 it could be to supply a 220V receptacle. I
suspect it is #14.

- but the OP stated he's got #12 copper.

The OP also talked about a " 'rubberized cap' of some sort". Wires may
or may not be #12.

I suspect those rubberized caps are just wire nuts.

If they are wire nuts, then we can assume that Timbirr is completely new to this stuff, and we need to emphasize that he locates the circuit breakers to these two circuits first, and does all his wiring with those breakers tripped OFF to be safe.

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 09:01:27 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 4/3/2013 8:23 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 11:15:42 -0600,
wrote:

On 4/2/2013 3:42 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The reason they want you to turn off the power is so you can take the wire nuts off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

Isn't that a catch-22? Until you have the wire nuts off, you have no way of telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when the power is off.

Worse, with that many wires, you may have more than one circuit, from more than one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still could be.
Didn't get in on the start of this thread, but if the red and black
are on outlets, they are likely splits - and they WILL be on different
circuits - but by law they need to be on tied breakers od fuse pulls
that cannot have one fuse removed at a time.. Thing is, you don't know
who wired it, when, and how - so you don't bet your life on it.

In the US, the NEC did not require common disconnect for a multiwire
branch circuit. (An Edison circuit is a multiwire, but a multiwire can
be 3-phase.) Then the NEC required a common disconnect for multiwire
that supplied a split wired receptacle - one circuit to each receptacle.
Now the NEC requires a common disconnect for any multiwire branch circuit.

I have not seen many split wired receptacles with 2 circuits, but they
are around, most likely in kitchens. Elsewhere likely half the
receptacle is switched.

If the wire is actually #12 it could be to supply a 220V receptacle. I
suspect it is #14.

- but the OP stated he's got #12 copper.

The OP also talked about a " 'rubberized cap' of some sort". Wires may
or may not be #12.

Then again, they may not be black red and white - or even wires. The
whole box may be just a halucination..

On Tuesday, 2 April 2013 19:33:32 UTC-4, wrote:
OP here again....



Things are starting to make sense a little.



The box in question is the standard duplex outlet box -- about one foot off the ground and about 2"x4" made from that hard thick brown plastic that seems to be the standard for all the boxes in this house and looks to be nailed to a stud.



It is a couple of feet off from a corner, it has a mate, along the same wall, also a couple of feet off from the corner.



It's a den, and the location of the box seems to be the prime spot someone would want an outlet to be if they wanted to plug in a lamp. As I said, it's mate down the wall is controlled by a wall switch that is directly across the room. No ceiling fixtures.

I think you have something that's really quite common for dens and living rooms: a series of outlets in which one or more can be controlled by a wall switch. In most/some/all areas, the Code allows such a scheme as an alternative to a switched ceiling fixture. (In practice, someone always manages to plug the TV into the switched outlet.)

One of the hot wires (I'd have used the red, but it would be at the discretion of whoever installed it) will be switched. The other will be live all the time. Both will be on the same circuit (breaker/fuse) and so there will not be any voltage difference between them.

If every outlet in the room is daisy-chained with both the red and black, then any of them could be reworked to be switched or not, by connecting it to the other wire. Often, the outlets "downstream" of the one they wanted switched will be wired without the switched wire.

You could connect the hot side of your new outlet to either the red or the black, depending on whether you wanted it switched or not. You could even cut the linking tab on the new outlet, connect red to one half and black to the other, and have only one of the two plugs switched. Would save you the trouble of figuring out which wire is which! (This *looks* like the "split" or "edison" circuit of which others speak, but isn't, since both halves of the outlet are on the same leg and the same breaker.)

These schemes are well documented in all of the glossy D-I-Y electrical books at the big box stores, along with techniques for adding an outlet to them.

Kind of odd why someone would remove an outlet and cap it off like that. Any hints as to why?

Chip C
Toronto

On 4/4/2013 8:31 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:13:26 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 4/3/2013 7:58 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 4/3/2013 5:05 PM, Red Green wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 4/2/2013 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in
:

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY
place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way
switch circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220
circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT
nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has
had the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an
Edison circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit
on the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and
the tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.


I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring or even isolated ground receptacles for electronic gear power.
o_O

TDD

I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring


So did I until I looked at a few diagrams one day and realized "You dumb
f*. You assume because there's more wires and devices that it's more
complicated"

- Always two three way switches.
- Any 4way switches are between the 3 ways.
- Common on one 3way is hot source
- Common on other 3 way goes to hot on device (light, whatever)
- Any 4 way switch wires are ALL travelers.

Piece 'o cake.


Wait, what's that I smell burning? Plastic?


I was on a job for The Army Core of Engineers working as an electrician
and the fellow who was my supervisor didn't understand 3 and 4 way
switch wiring. o_O

TDD

GEEZ! That should have been Army "Corps" of Engineers. o_O

Gotcha Barak. ;-)


Watch your mouth or I'll organize your neighborhood! O_o

TDD

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 14:55:11 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 4/4/2013 8:31 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:13:26 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 4/3/2013 7:58 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 4/3/2013 5:05 PM, Red Green wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 4/2/2013 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in
:

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY
place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way
switch circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220
circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT
nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has
had the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an
Edison circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit
on the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and
the tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.


I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring or even isolated ground receptacles for electronic gear power.
o_O

TDD

I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring


So did I until I looked at a few diagrams one day and realized "You dumb
f*. You assume because there's more wires and devices that it's more
complicated"

- Always two three way switches.
- Any 4way switches are between the 3 ways.
- Common on one 3way is hot source
- Common on other 3 way goes to hot on device (light, whatever)
- Any 4 way switch wires are ALL travelers.

Piece 'o cake.


Wait, what's that I smell burning? Plastic?


I was on a job for The Army Core of Engineers working as an electrician
and the fellow who was my supervisor didn't understand 3 and 4 way
switch wiring. o_O

TDD

GEEZ! That should have been Army "Corps" of Engineers. o_O

Gotcha Barak. ;-)


Watch your mouth or I'll organize your neighborhood! O_o

How about my closets instead?

wrote in :

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:05:21 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in news:b8kml85uvd9odrjtku42n51mr4kld4itm8@
4ax.com:

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220 circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has had
the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an Edison
circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit on
the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and the
tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.

It's been pointed out to you before -- more than once -- that you make the mistake of
assuming that what is Code in Canada is Code everywhere. Yet you continue to repeat
that
same mistake, over and over and over.
It's NOT a mistake. I ALWAYS state it is code "in Canada". If code in
the USA is inferior it's not my fault. So go suck on another pickle,
sourpuss.

No, you don't "ALWAYS state" that -- for instance, in the comment I objected to above.

Fact is, you usually DON'T state that. Which is why it's been pointed out to you -- more than
once -- that you make the mistake of assuming that what's Code in Canada is Code
everywhere. It's not.

wrote in :

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:03:35 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220 circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT nonsense.

"Split receptacle" in NO WAY implies an Edison circuit. It's common to have one half of a
duplex receptacle controlled by a wall switch, and the other half unswitched -- with both
halves being on the same 120V circuit.
That's not referred to as a "split circuit" or a "split receptacle"
around here. It's a half switched receptacle.

"Split receptacle" clearly implies *only* that the two halves of the duplex are independent. It
does *not* imply that it's an Edison circuit.

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 03:08:37 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:05:21 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in news:b8kml85uvd9odrjtku42n51mr4kld4itm8@
4ax.com:

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220 circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has had
the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an Edison
circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit on
the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and the
tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.

It's been pointed out to you before -- more than once -- that you make the mistake of
assuming that what is Code in Canada is Code everywhere. Yet you continue to repeat
that
same mistake, over and over and over.
It's NOT a mistake. I ALWAYS state it is code "in Canada". If code in
the USA is inferior it's not my fault. So go suck on another pickle,
sourpuss.

No, you don't "ALWAYS state" that -- for instance, in the comment I objected to above.

Fact is, you usually DON'T state that. Which is why it's been pointed out to you -- more than
once -- that you make the mistake of assuming that what's Code in Canada is Code
everywhere. It's not.
What do you not understand about "Code in Canada " which is the only
place I even mentioned "code".

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 03:10:12 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:03:35 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220 circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT nonsense.

"Split receptacle" in NO WAY implies an Edison circuit. It's common to have one half of a
duplex receptacle controlled by a wall switch, and the other half unswitched -- with both
halves being on the same 120V circuit.
That's not referred to as a "split circuit" or a "split receptacle"
around here. It's a half switched receptacle.

"Split receptacle" clearly implies *only* that the two halves of the duplex are independent. It
does *not* imply that it's an Edison circuit.

Forget your burr about Code and Canada. Common useage both sides of
the border by "electricians" - a "split" is on 2 different circuits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAd5fWAliZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po2P-TC9gug
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/defin...-kitchen-1153/
http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-s...les-break-tabs
http://electrical.about.com/od/elect...toutletdef.htm
- this one (above) meets your definition.
http://www.easy-do-it-yourself-home-...eceptacle.html
http://www.electrical-online.com/kit...acle-circuits/



Just the first 7 references on Google that did not specifically refer
to Canada (like a .ca domain)

On Apr 2, 3:07*pm, wrote:
O.K. Thanks to you all. I do appreciate the help.

I have to admit, however, that most of your terminology has left me more confused than enlightened. *Sorry, I did say I don't know much.

I do understand, I think that this box may need to be as is, left alone that is, as it could feed other outlets.

There is a near-by duplex outlet on the same wall that is controlled by a toggle light switch on the wall, if that is any help.

Anyway, what I THINK, *I understand is that I need to turn off power, take off insulating caps and then turn on the power and use my meter to check *-- one-by-one -- any current between the red and white wire.

Then check for current between the black and white wire.

So, what do I do if there is no current -- the current is 110 or the current is 220 -- or the house blows up? ;

If the circuit breaker trips? Or any of the other things that may happen. Or I guess I can check and then report back with results.

I think I am at the path here, I just need to take the first steps...

You are checking for voltage, not current, THe fact that you refer to
current rather than voltage tells us you are pretty much a novice.

On 4/4/2013 4:25 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 14:55:11 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 4/4/2013 8:31 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:13:26 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 4/3/2013 7:58 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 4/3/2013 5:05 PM, Red Green wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 4/2/2013 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in
:

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY
place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way
switch circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220
circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT
nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has
had the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an
Edison circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit
on the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and
the tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.


I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring or even isolated ground receptacles for electronic gear power.
o_O

TDD

I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring


So did I until I looked at a few diagrams one day and realized "You dumb
f*. You assume because there's more wires and devices that it's more
complicated"

- Always two three way switches.
- Any 4way switches are between the 3 ways.
- Common on one 3way is hot source
- Common on other 3 way goes to hot on device (light, whatever)
- Any 4 way switch wires are ALL travelers.

Piece 'o cake.


Wait, what's that I smell burning? Plastic?


I was on a job for The Army Core of Engineers working as an electrician
and the fellow who was my supervisor didn't understand 3 and 4 way
switch wiring. o_O

TDD

GEEZ! That should have been Army "Corps" of Engineers. o_O

Gotcha Barak. ;-)


Watch your mouth or I'll organize your neighborhood! O_o

How about my closets instead?


That was the threat from Ramboma before he shot Osama bin Laden in the
eye. ^_^

TDD

wrote in :

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 03:08:37 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

Fact is, you usually DON'T state that. Which is why it's been pointed out to you -- more than
once -- that you make the mistake of assuming that what's Code in Canada is Code
everywhere. It's not.
What do you not understand about "Code in Canada " which is the only
place I even mentioned "code".


What do you not understand about "you usually DON'T state that"?

wrote in :


Forget your burr about Code and Canada.

I don't have a "burr about Code and Canada". I have a problem with *you* repeatedly making
blanket statements that apply only on your side of the border. Or only in your head.

On Apr 5, 7:59*am, Doug Miller
wrote:
wrote :



Forget your burr about Code and Canada.

I don't have a "burr about Code and Canada". I have a problem with *you* repeatedly making
blanket statements that apply only on your side of the border. Or only in your head.

I agree with you. Here in the states a "split receptacle" means only
that. That the two receptacles are not connected together. I have a
bunch of them in my house. All are on the same circuits. One is
switched, the other is not and is live all the time. It also appears
that
the mystery box in this thread is exactly that too. Why would anyone
pull two circuits to do that? Do they actually do that in Canada?

On 4/5/2013 9:55 AM, wrote:
On Apr 5, 7:59 am, Doug Miller
wrote:
wrote :



Forget your burr about Code and Canada.
I don't have a "burr about Code and Canada". I have a problem with *you* repeatedly making
blanket statements that apply only on your side of the border. Or only in your head.
I agree with you. Here in the states a "split receptacle" means only
that. That the two receptacles are not connected together. I have a
bunch of them in my house. All are on the same circuits. One is
switched, the other is not and is live all the time. It also appears
that
the mystery box in this thread is exactly that too. Why would anyone
pull two circuits to do that? Do they actually do that in Canada?
It's unusual to have them here. I've only seen them a few times, and
those have been in commercial settings. We, in the US refer to a split
receptacle exactly as you describe. One circuit, half live, half
switched. In Canada the use two circuit split receptacles for kitchen
receptacles.