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#1
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
When the hair dryer is on, our 15AMP circuit breaker has been tripping
lately to the bathroom's outlet. Sometimes my wife sees a tiny flash when the power to the outlet goes out. I just looked at the outlet and it's a 20amp GFCI on the 15AMP circuit breaker. I just looked at the three neutral wires on the other side of the pigtail and they are melted. So, here are a copy of questions 1. Should I replace the outlet with a 15AMP GFIC instead of the 20AMP? 2. Can I just cut back the wires that are melted and put in a new pigtail or should the wires coming into the outlet box be inspected or possible replaced? |
#2
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
"Ziggs" wrote in message ... When the hair dryer is on, our 15AMP circuit breaker has been tripping lately to the bathroom's outlet. Sometimes my wife sees a tiny flash when the power to the outlet goes out. I just looked at the outlet and it's a 20amp GFCI on the 15AMP circuit breaker. I just looked at the three neutral wires on the other side of the pigtail and they are melted. So, here are a copy of questions 1. Should I replace the outlet with a 15AMP GFIC instead of the 20AMP? **Yes, but that has no bearing on your problem 2. Can I just cut back the wires that are melted and put in a new pigtail or should the wires coming into the outlet box be inspected or possible replaced? **If there is enough wire to cut them back, beyond the point where the copper is annealed, that's fine, and I would use pigtails, and be sure that they're tight |
#3
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 28, 5:08*pm, Ziggs wrote:
When the hair dryer is on, our 15AMP circuit breaker has been tripping lately to the bathroom's outlet. *Sometimes my wife sees a tiny flash when the power to the outlet goes out. *I just looked at the outlet and it's a 20amp GFCI on the 15AMP circuit breaker. *I just looked at the three neutral wires on the other side of the pigtail and they are melted. So, here are a copy of questions 1. Should I replace the outlet with a 15AMP GFIC instead of the 20AMP? 2. Can I just cut back the wires that are melted and put in a new pigtail or should the wires coming into the outlet box be inspected or possible *replaced? First of all, your bathroom should have a 20 amp circuit. It sounds like your house was built a while ago, and a 15A circuit was put in. Also putting in a 15A GFi is not going to help. You can leave the 20A outlet, it is still limited to 15A by the breaker. Your wasting your money changing it to a 15A GFI. If replacing the wiring to a 20A circuit is not feasible, then either get a smaller hair dryer, or perhaps take some load of that circuit by putting in some CFL bulbs. |
#4
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 28, 5:08*pm, Ziggs wrote:
When the hair dryer is on, our 15AMP circuit breaker has been tripping lately to the bathroom's outlet. *Sometimes my wife sees a tiny flash when the power to the outlet goes out. *I just looked at the outlet and it's a 20amp GFCI on the 15AMP circuit breaker. *I just looked at the three neutral wires on the other side of the pigtail and they are melted. So, here are a copy of questions 1. Should I replace the outlet with a 15AMP GFIC instead of the 20AMP? 2. Can I just cut back the wires that are melted and put in a new pigtail or should the wires coming into the outlet box be inspected or possible *replaced? @Ziggs: What else besides the bathroom is connected to the 15amp circuit in question which "nuisance trips" whenever you use a hair dryer in the bathroom ? There has to be a lot more on that circuit than just the bathroom if the neutral wires "melted"... Is it possible somewhere upstream in the circuit that you are cross connected with the neutral of another different circuit and it is that cross connection which has caused the melting ? If you think about it you could have two separate 15amp circuits running and only overload the neutral in the bathroom outlet box where the heavy load from the outlet there where the hair dryer gets used whenever the other cross wired circuit is also under a load... Even though all neutrals are connected to the same bus bar in the load panel, the neutral wires from different circuits fed from separate circuit breakers should never be connected together anywhere but at the neutral bus bar in the service panel as that can allow the neutral wires to overload and melt just like happened to you... I am suggesting this theory since you did not mention any damage to the hot conductor in the effected outlet box... ~~ Evan |
#5
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
Would be nice to know the size of the wire that feeds the
outlet. 14 AWG uses a 15 amp breaker, 12 AWG can use a 20 amp breaker. The totally ideal repair is to replace the wire, use 12 AWG Romex. 20 amp breaker, and 20 amp GFCI outlet. In th ereal world, it's sometimes not practical to replace the wire. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Ziggs" wrote in message ... When the hair dryer is on, our 15AMP circuit breaker has been tripping lately to the bathroom's outlet. Sometimes my wife sees a tiny flash when the power to the outlet goes out. I just looked at the outlet and it's a 20amp GFCI on the 15AMP circuit breaker. I just looked at the three neutral wires on the other side of the pigtail and they are melted. So, here are a copy of questions 1. Should I replace the outlet with a 15AMP GFIC instead of the 20AMP? 2. Can I just cut back the wires that are melted and put in a new pigtail or should the wires coming into the outlet box be inspected or possible replaced? |
#6
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
Ziggs wrote in news:rkn2u6lug8b6mf765hdi567i9a4gsfbcnt@
4ax.com: When the hair dryer is on, our 15AMP circuit breaker has been tripping lately to the bathroom's outlet. Sometimes my wife sees a tiny flash when the power to the outlet goes out. I just looked at the outlet and it's a 20amp GFCI on the 15AMP circuit breaker. I just looked at the three neutral wires on the other side of the pigtail and they are melted. So, here are a copy of questions 1. Should I replace the outlet with a 15AMP GFIC instead of the 20AMP? 2. Can I just cut back the wires that are melted and put in a new pigtail or should the wires coming into the outlet box be inspected or possible replaced? Who put the 20A GFI on the 15A line? That person should not be messing with it then or now. While the 15A breaker at the box should cover any overload situation, the next no-no might not have such a check and balance. |
#7
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 29, 3:21*am, Evan wrote:
On May 28, 5:08*pm, Ziggs wrote: When the hair dryer is on, our 15AMP circuit breaker has been tripping lately to the bathroom's outlet. *Sometimes my wife sees a tiny flash when the power to the outlet goes out. *I just looked at the outlet and it's a 20amp GFCI on the 15AMP circuit breaker. *I just looked at the three neutral wires on the other side of the pigtail and they are melted. So, here are a copy of questions 1. Should I replace the outlet with a 15AMP GFIC instead of the 20AMP? 2. Can I just cut back the wires that are melted and put in a new pigtail or should the wires coming into the outlet box be inspected or possible *replaced? @Ziggs: What else besides the bathroom is connected to the 15amp circuit in question which "nuisance trips" whenever you use a hair dryer in the bathroom ? *There has to be a lot more on that circuit than just the bathroom if the neutral wires "melted"... Melting is more typically caused by a poor connection that has some resistance. That resistance produces heat. |
#8
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 29, 6:25*am, "
wrote: On May 29, 3:21*am, Evan wrote: On May 28, 5:08*pm, Ziggs wrote: When the hair dryer is on, our 15AMP circuit breaker has been tripping lately to the bathroom's outlet. *Sometimes my wife sees a tiny flash when the power to the outlet goes out. *I just looked at the outlet and it's a 20amp GFCI on the 15AMP circuit breaker. *I just looked at the three neutral wires on the other side of the pigtail and they are melted. So, here are a copy of questions 1. Should I replace the outlet with a 15AMP GFIC instead of the 20AMP? 2. Can I just cut back the wires that are melted and put in a new pigtail or should the wires coming into the outlet box be inspected or possible *replaced? @Ziggs: What else besides the bathroom is connected to the 15amp circuit in question which "nuisance trips" whenever you use a hair dryer in the bathroom ? *There has to be a lot more on that circuit than just the bathroom if the neutral wires "melted"... Melting is more typically caused by a poor connection that has some resistance. * That resistance produces heat. Melting is more typically caused by a poor connection that has some resistance. That resistance produces heat. Bingo! A poor connection in the box (either at the GFI or the pig tail) is the most likely cause of these issues. A 15amp circuit for a hand held hair dryer is a bit skinny. As suggest by another post, consider a lower watt hair dryer. Check the tightness & condition of all neutral wires at the neutral bus. cheers Bob |
#9
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
In article
, DD_BobK wrote: A 15amp circuit for a hand held hair dryer is a bit skinny. I've never seen a hair dryer with a nameplate rating of more than 1500 watts. That's 12.5 amps. I'm pretty sure that's by design. |
#10
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 29, 8:16*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , *DD_BobK wrote: A 15amp circuit for a hand held hair dryer is a bit skinny. I've never seen a hair dryer with a nameplate rating of more than 1500 watts. That's 12.5 amps. I'm pretty sure that's by design. I checked my wife's hair dyers....one was 1500w, the other was 1875w plus Conair 228r Hair Dryer 1875w Revlon - 1875 watt - Hot Air Styler SOLIS #S404 INFERNO 1875 WATT HAND HELD HAIR DRYER Phillips Handheld hair dryer 2000W - HP 8195/00 15 amps is a bit low for bathroom |
#11
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On 5/29/2011 11:03 PM, DD_BobK wrote:
On May 29, 8:16 am, Smitty wrote: In article , wrote: A 15amp circuit for a hand held hair dryer is a bit skinny. I've never seen a hair dryer with a nameplate rating of more than 1500 watts. That's 12.5 amps. I'm pretty sure that's by design. I checked my wife's hair dyers....one was 1500w, the other was 1875w plus Conair 228r Hair Dryer 1875w Revlon - 1875 watt - Hot Air Styler SOLIS #S404 INFERNO 1875 WATT HAND HELD HAIR DRYER Phillips Handheld hair dryer 2000W - HP 8195/00 15 amps is a bit low for bathroom Those 1875w units are 1875w @ 230v, 1500w or less on 115v. That Phillips HP 8195/00 is 230v only. 1500w on 115v is the largest allowed plug-in home appliance in USA, unless they have a 20a plug: (-|). |
#12
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 29, 8:21*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: Would be nice to know the size of the wire that feeds the outlet. 14 AWG uses a 15 amp breaker, 12 AWG can use a 20 amp breaker. The totally ideal repair is to replace the wire, use 12 AWG Romex. 20 amp breaker, and 20 amp GFCI outlet. In th ereal world, it's sometimes not practical to replace the wire. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus *www.lds.org @Chris: In general your wire size and breaker capacity logic is correct... However in longer circuit runs, you see a #12 AWG wire being used on a 15-amp circuit to counter voltage drop over the long run... Ditto with #10 AWG wire being used on a 20-amp circuit for the same reason... So wire size is NOT always directly connected to the amperage capacity of the circuit... ~~ Evan |
#13
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 29, 9:25*am, "
wrote: On May 29, 3:21*am, Evan wrote: On May 28, 5:08*pm, Ziggs wrote: When the hair dryer is on, our 15AMP circuit breaker has been tripping lately to the bathroom's outlet. *Sometimes my wife sees a tiny flash when the power to the outlet goes out. *I just looked at the outlet and it's a 20amp GFCI on the 15AMP circuit breaker. *I just looked at the three neutral wires on the other side of the pigtail and they are melted. So, here are a copy of questions 1. Should I replace the outlet with a 15AMP GFIC instead of the 20AMP? 2. Can I just cut back the wires that are melted and put in a new pigtail or should the wires coming into the outlet box be inspected or possible *replaced? @Ziggs: What else besides the bathroom is connected to the 15amp circuit in question which "nuisance trips" whenever you use a hair dryer in the bathroom ? *There has to be a lot more on that circuit than just the bathroom if the neutral wires "melted"... Melting is more typically caused by a poor connection that has some resistance. * That resistance produces heat. Clearly you have never seen a catastrophic overload condition applied to undersized wiring... The sort of thing where an improperly wired Edison multi-wire branch circuit is being fed from the same leg of a home's electrical service -- twice the rated current the neutral can safely carry can be passing through it when both circuits are being operated close to capacity... This is why I suggested the OP make sure that *only* the bathroom is being fed from the circuit demonstrating the problems and that there is no connection to the neutral wire of another circuit anywhere... A loose connection is not always the answer, if that were the case people wouldn't need to call out an electrician every time they had an issue, they would only need to check that all the connections were properly tightened and that should solve the problem... ~~ Evan |
#14
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
Ziggs wrote:
When the hair dryer is on, our 15AMP circuit breaker has been tripping lately to the bathroom's outlet. Sometimes my wife sees a tiny flash when the power to the outlet goes out. I just looked at the outlet and it's a 20amp GFCI on the 15AMP circuit breaker. I just looked at the three neutral wires on the other side of the pigtail and they are melted. So, here are a copy of questions 1. Should I replace the outlet with a 15AMP GFIC instead of the 20AMP? 2. Can I just cut back the wires that are melted and put in a new pigtail or should the wires coming into the outlet box be inspected or possible replaced? Whatever. You're just dealing with the symptoms. The actual SOLUTION is to get the wife a less-powerful hair dryer. |
#15
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
If she had a 440/3 hair dryer, would she spend less time in
the bathroom? -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Congoleum Breckenridge" wrote in message ... Those 1875w units are 1875w @ 230v, 1500w or less on 115v. That Phillips HP 8195/00 is 230v only. 1500w on 115v is the largest allowed plug-in home appliance in USA, unless they have a 20a plug: (-|). |
#16
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 30, 1:01*am, Evan wrote:
On May 29, 9:25*am, " wrote: On May 29, 3:21*am, Evan wrote: On May 28, 5:08*pm, Ziggs wrote: When the hair dryer is on, our 15AMP circuit breaker has been tripping lately to the bathroom's outlet. *Sometimes my wife sees a tiny flash when the power to the outlet goes out. *I just looked at the outlet and it's a 20amp GFCI on the 15AMP circuit breaker. *I just looked at the three neutral wires on the other side of the pigtail and they are melted. So, here are a copy of questions 1. Should I replace the outlet with a 15AMP GFIC instead of the 20AMP? 2. Can I just cut back the wires that are melted and put in a new pigtail or should the wires coming into the outlet box be inspected or possible *replaced? @Ziggs: What else besides the bathroom is connected to the 15amp circuit in question which "nuisance trips" whenever you use a hair dryer in the bathroom ? *There has to be a lot more on that circuit than just the bathroom if the neutral wires "melted"... Melting is more typically caused by a poor connection that has some resistance. * That resistance produces heat. Clearly you have never seen a catastrophic overload condition applied to undersized wiring... How does that have anything to do with my suggestion that if he has three neutal wires with melted insulation coming off the pigtail connection in a box, it's more likely due to a bad connection generating heat right there than two breakers feeding back through the same neutral? Yes, that's possible, but in my experience, it's far more likely that it's the former. The sort of thing where an improperly wired Edison multi-wire branch circuit is being fed from the same leg of a home's electrical service -- twice the rated current the neutral can safely carry can be passing through it when both circuits are being operated close to capacity... This is why I suggested the OP make sure that *only* the bathroom is being fed from the circuit demonstrating the problems and that there is no connection to the neutral wire of another circuit anywhere... A loose connection is not always the answer, if that were the case people wouldn't need to call out an electrician every time they had an issue, they would only need to check that all the connections were properly tightened and that should solve the problem... ~~ Evan- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Geez. I never said a bad connection was the ONLY answer. I said when you find a few inches of melted insulation at a connection point, ie wire nut, screw terminal, etc., it's far more likely the problem is the connection not a mis-wired Edison circuit. You, on the other hand never mentioned the more common, limited problem. And the last part, about calling an electrician makes zero sense. People have a variety of skills. Many homeowners could not do the simple checking of wire connections and correctly diagnose the problem, so they would in fact call an electrician, regardless of the cause. |
#17
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On 5/29/2011 10:18 PM, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:
On 5/29/2011 11:03 PM, DD_BobK wrote: On May 29, 8:16 am, Smitty wrote: In article , wrote: A 15amp circuit for a hand held hair dryer is a bit skinny. I've never seen a hair dryer with a nameplate rating of more than 1500 watts. That's 12.5 amps. I'm pretty sure that's by design. I checked my wife's hair dyers....one was 1500w, the other was 1875w plus Conair 228r Hair Dryer 1875w Revlon - 1875 watt - Hot Air Styler SOLIS #S404 INFERNO 1875 WATT HAND HELD HAIR DRYER Phillips Handheld hair dryer 2000W - HP 8195/00 15 amps is a bit low for bathroom Those 1875w units are 1875w @ 230v, 1500w or less on 115v. That Phillips HP 8195/00 is 230v only. 1500w on 115v is the largest allowed plug-in home appliance in USA, unless they have a 20a plug: (-|). Cite. The 1875W dryers could have 20A plugs (as you note at the end of your post). The NEC only allows 80% plug-in loads on 15 and 20A circuits. (IMHO this is a bad rule for several reasons.) UL says the receptacles and plugs are rated 100% and will list short time use devices (like a hair dryer) with ratings up to 15 or 20A with 15 or 20A plugs. (IMHO this is perfectly reasonable.) -- bud-- |
#18
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
wrote in message ... On May 30, 1:01 am, Evan wrote: On May 29, 9:25 am, " wrote: On May 29, 3:21 am, Evan wrote: On May 28, 5:08 pm, Ziggs wrote: When the hair dryer is on, our 15AMP circuit breaker has been tripping lately to the bathroom's outlet. Sometimes my wife sees a tiny flash when the power to the outlet goes out. I just looked at the outlet and it's a 20amp GFCI on the 15AMP circuit breaker. I just looked at the three neutral wires on the other side of the pigtail and they are melted. So, here are a copy of questions 1. Should I replace the outlet with a 15AMP GFIC instead of the 20AMP? 2. Can I just cut back the wires that are melted and put in a new pigtail or should the wires coming into the outlet box be inspected or possible replaced? @Ziggs: What else besides the bathroom is connected to the 15amp circuit in question which "nuisance trips" whenever you use a hair dryer in the bathroom ? There has to be a lot more on that circuit than just the bathroom if the neutral wires "melted"... Melting is more typically caused by a poor connection that has some resistance. That resistance produces heat. Clearly you have never seen a catastrophic overload condition applied to undersized wiring... How does that have anything to do with my suggestion that if he has three neutal wires with melted insulation coming off the pigtail connection in a box, it's more likely due to a bad connection generating heat right there than two breakers feeding back through the same neutral? Yes, that's possible, but in my experience, it's far more likely that it's the former. The sort of thing where an improperly wired Edison multi-wire branch circuit is being fed from the same leg of a home's electrical service -- twice the rated current the neutral can safely carry can be passing through it when both circuits are being operated close to capacity... This is why I suggested the OP make sure that *only* the bathroom is being fed from the circuit demonstrating the problems and that there is no connection to the neutral wire of another circuit anywhere... A loose connection is not always the answer, if that were the case people wouldn't need to call out an electrician every time they had an issue, they would only need to check that all the connections were properly tightened and that should solve the problem... ~~ Evan- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Geez. I never said a bad connection was the ONLY answer. I said when you find a few inches of melted insulation at a connection point, ie wire nut, screw terminal, etc., it's far more likely the problem is the connection not a mis-wired Edison circuit. You, on the other hand never mentioned the more common, limited problem. And the last part, about calling an electrician makes zero sense. People have a variety of skills. Many homeowners could not do the simple checking of wire connections and correctly diagnose the problem, so they would in fact call an electrician, regardless of the cause. ** I rarely find burn outs from improperly connected Edison circuits. I'd have to say that a good percentage of Edison circuits that I explore, are incorrectly done. Typically, I just find the white wire turns brown from the excessive heat, right at the neutral buss. The OP has a classic, loose connection under a wire nut, with a high amperage draw, over time anneals the copper, degrades and overheats the connection to the point of disintegration, and opens the circuit. |
#19
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On 5/30/2011 6:42 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
If she had a 440/3 hair dryer, would she spend less time in the bathroom? You have seen the automatic dog washing machines haven't you? You put the doggie in the machine, close the door, push the start button and the machine cycles through wash, rinse and dry without harming or freaking out the dog. I would like to see the machines scaled up for adults and children. The first customers would be institutions like prisons or mental hospitals with home units arriving on the market later. The institutional units could have restraint tie downs where the inmate or patient is hooked up and sent down the conveyor belt. The home units would be walk in and kids would probably like taking a bath for a change. ^_^ TDD |
#20
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 30, 9:56*am, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message ... On May 30, 1:01 am, Evan wrote: On May 29, 9:25 am, " wrote: On May 29, 3:21 am, Evan wrote: On May 28, 5:08 pm, Ziggs wrote: When the hair dryer is on, our 15AMP circuit breaker has been tripping lately to the bathroom's outlet. Sometimes my wife sees a tiny flash when the power to the outlet goes out. I just looked at the outlet and it's a 20amp GFCI on the 15AMP circuit breaker. I just looked at the three neutral wires on the other side of the pigtail and they are melted. So, here are a copy of questions 1. Should I replace the outlet with a 15AMP GFIC instead of the 20AMP? 2. Can I just cut back the wires that are melted and put in a new pigtail or should the wires coming into the outlet box be inspected or possible replaced? @Ziggs: What else besides the bathroom is connected to the 15amp circuit in question which "nuisance trips" whenever you use a hair dryer in the bathroom ? There has to be a lot more on that circuit than just the bathroom if the neutral wires "melted".... Melting is more typically caused by a poor connection that has some resistance. That resistance produces heat. Clearly you have never seen a catastrophic overload condition applied to undersized wiring... How does that have anything to do with my suggestion that if he has three neutal wires with melted insulation coming off the pigtail connection in a box, it's more likely due to a bad connection generating heat right there than two breakers feeding back through the same neutral? * Yes, that's possible, but in my experience, it's far more likely that it's the former. The sort of thing where an improperly wired Edison multi-wire branch circuit is being fed from the same leg of a home's electrical service -- twice the rated current the neutral can safely carry can be passing through it when both circuits are being operated close to capacity... This is why I suggested the OP make sure that *only* the bathroom is being fed from the circuit demonstrating the problems and that there is no connection to the neutral wire of another circuit anywhere... A loose connection is not always the answer, if that were the case people wouldn't need to call out an electrician every time they had an issue, they would only need to check that all the connections were properly tightened and that should solve the problem... ~~ Evan- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Geez. *I never said a bad connection was the ONLY answer. *I said when you find a few inches of melted insulation at a connection point, ie wire nut, screw terminal, etc., it's far more likely the problem is the connection not a mis-wired Edison circuit. *You, on the other hand never mentioned the more common, limited problem. And the last part, about calling an electrician makes zero sense. * People have a variety of skills. *Many homeowners could not do the simple checking of wire connections and correctly diagnose the problem, so they would in fact call an electrician, regardless of the cause. ** I rarely find burn outs from improperly connected Edison circuits. I'd have to say that a good percentage of Edison circuits that I explore, are incorrectly done. Typically, I just find the white wire turns brown from the excessive heat, right at the neutral buss. *The OP has a classic, loose connection under a wire nut, with a high amperage draw, over time anneals the copper, degrades and overheats the connection to the point of disintegration, and opens the circuit.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Thank you RBM. Now we have an electrician weighing in. Good to see we're on the same page. |
#21
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 30, 9:56*am, "RBM" wrote:
** I rarely find burn outs from improperly connected Edison circuits. I'd have to say that a good percentage of Edison circuits that I explore, are incorrectly done. Typically, I just find the white wire turns brown from the excessive heat, right at the neutral buss. *The OP has a classic, loose connection under a wire nut, with a high amperage draw, over time anneals the copper, degrades and overheats the connection to the point of disintegration, and opens the circuit. Right, except how often do you open up a switch box which has multiple circuits fed into it and see ALL of the white neutral wires connected together ? I never said it had to be an Edison circuit, just that if someone had made an incorrect connection somewhere upstream and connected the neutral wires from more than one circuit together that could cause the exact same issue... Given that the bathroom outlet was replaced with one with a higher rating by someone who obviously didn't know what they were doing all bets are off -- there could be several factors which added up to cause that burn out... Again, no one seems to know what else besides the one GFCI bathroom outlet is also on the same circuit... ~~ Evan |
#22
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
"Evan" wrote in message ... On May 30, 9:56 am, "RBM" wrote: ** I rarely find burn outs from improperly connected Edison circuits. I'd have to say that a good percentage of Edison circuits that I explore, are incorrectly done. Typically, I just find the white wire turns brown from the excessive heat, right at the neutral buss. The OP has a classic, loose connection under a wire nut, with a high amperage draw, over time anneals the copper, degrades and overheats the connection to the point of disintegration, and opens the circuit. Right, except how often do you open up a switch box which has multiple circuits fed into it and see ALL of the white neutral wires connected together ? **I don't believe that there are multiple circuits in this junction box. It sounds to me like it's one circuit branching off in several directions.This was standard practice some years ago. Typically, where you find the burn, you have the problem. It's not impossible that the problem is something more obscure, just that it typically isn't. I never said it had to be an Edison circuit, just that if someone had made an incorrect connection somewhere upstream and connected the neutral wires from more than one circuit together that could cause the exact same issue... Given that the bathroom outlet was replaced with one with a higher rating by someone who obviously didn't know what they were doing all bets are off -- there could be several factors which added up to cause that burn out... Again, no one seems to know what else besides the one GFCI bathroom outlet is also on the same circuit... ~~ Evan |
#23
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On Mon, 30 May 2011 09:50:30 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote: On 5/30/2011 6:42 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote: If she had a 440/3 hair dryer, would she spend less time in the bathroom? You have seen the automatic dog washing machines haven't you? You put the doggie in the machine, close the door, push the start button and the machine cycles through wash, rinse and dry without harming or freaking out the dog. I would like to see the machines scaled up for adults and children. The first customers would be institutions like prisons or mental hospitals with home units arriving on the market later. The institutional units could have restraint tie downs where the inmate or patient is hooked up and sent down the conveyor belt. The home units would be walk in and kids would probably like taking a bath for a change. ^_^ Kinda like the pizza ovens in PizzaHut? |
#24
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
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#26
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
In article ,
" wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:40:07 -0500, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 5/30/2011 1:44 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 09:50:30 -0500, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 5/30/2011 6:42 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote: If she had a 440/3 hair dryer, would she spend less time in the bathroom? You have seen the automatic dog washing machines haven't you? You put the doggie in the machine, close the door, push the start button and the machine cycles through wash, rinse and dry without harming or freaking out the dog. I would like to see the machines scaled up for adults and children. The first customers would be institutions like prisons or mental hospitals with home units arriving on the market later. The institutional units could have restraint tie downs where the inmate or patient is hooked up and sent down the conveyor belt. The home units would be walk in and kids would probably like taking a bath for a change. ^_^ Kinda like the pizza ovens in PizzaHut? I've worked on a lot of those known as "conveyor ovens". They're an interesting way to cook, very adaptable. :-) I'll say they're adaptable. We have one of those too. http://www.apsgold.com/reflow-ovens/...d-free-reflow- oven A "lead-free" reflow oven? Do they charge extra for that imaginary feature? |
#27
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On 5/30/2011 8:19 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:40:07 -0500, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 5/30/2011 1:44 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 09:50:30 -0500, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 5/30/2011 6:42 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote: If she had a 440/3 hair dryer, would she spend less time in the bathroom? You have seen the automatic dog washing machines haven't you? You put the doggie in the machine, close the door, push the start button and the machine cycles through wash, rinse and dry without harming or freaking out the dog. I would like to see the machines scaled up for adults and children. The first customers would be institutions like prisons or mental hospitals with home units arriving on the market later. The institutional units could have restraint tie downs where the inmate or patient is hooked up and sent down the conveyor belt. The home units would be walk in and kids would probably like taking a bath for a change. ^_^ Kinda like the pizza ovens in PizzaHut? I've worked on a lot of those known as "conveyor ovens". They're an interesting way to cook, very adaptable. :-) I'll say they're adaptable. We have one of those too. http://www.apsgold.com/reflow-ovens/...ee-reflow-oven I repair/rebuild a lot of Middleby Marshall ovens that you see in a lot of pizza places. You can use them to cook all kinds of foods, fast. ^_^ http://www.middleby.com/midmarsh/ps360.htm TDD |
#28
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:39:00 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote: In article , " wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:40:07 -0500, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 5/30/2011 1:44 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 09:50:30 -0500, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 5/30/2011 6:42 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote: If she had a 440/3 hair dryer, would she spend less time in the bathroom? You have seen the automatic dog washing machines haven't you? You put the doggie in the machine, close the door, push the start button and the machine cycles through wash, rinse and dry without harming or freaking out the dog. I would like to see the machines scaled up for adults and children. The first customers would be institutions like prisons or mental hospitals with home units arriving on the market later. The institutional units could have restraint tie downs where the inmate or patient is hooked up and sent down the conveyor belt. The home units would be walk in and kids would probably like taking a bath for a change. ^_^ Kinda like the pizza ovens in PizzaHut? I've worked on a lot of those known as "conveyor ovens". They're an interesting way to cook, very adaptable. :-) I'll say they're adaptable. We have one of those too. http://www.apsgold.com/reflow-ovens/...d-free-reflow- oven A "lead-free" reflow oven? There is no lead in the process. Your point? Do they charge extra for that imaginary feature? No, with all those heaters the PF is quite low. |
#29
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
THERE YOU ALL GO AGAIN SPOUTING OFF TOPIC CRAP. THE ENTIRE PREMISE OF THIS POST IS WRONG...AND ALL YOU CAN TALK ABOUT IS YOUR OWN PETTY CONCERNS.........SHAME ON YOU! TGITM |
#30
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
In article ,
" wrote: A "lead-free" reflow oven? There is no lead in the process. Your point? My point is that there is no damn difference between a reflow oven for leaded solder and a reflow oven for RoHS solder. It's advertising absurdity. |
#31
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On Mon, 30 May 2011 20:46:12 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote: In article , " wrote: A "lead-free" reflow oven? There is no lead in the process. Your point? My point is that there is no damn difference between a reflow oven for leaded solder and a reflow oven for RoHS solder. It's advertising absurdity. There actually is a difference. Temperature and control. RoHS takes more of both. That's why they have as many as 12 zones (as ours does, though it's not the one I linked). That many zones isn't necessary for a lead solder process. The margin of error is almost zero with RoHS. |
#32
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
In article ,
" wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 20:46:12 -0700, Smitty Two wrote: In article , " wrote: A "lead-free" reflow oven? There is no lead in the process. Your point? My point is that there is no damn difference between a reflow oven for leaded solder and a reflow oven for RoHS solder. It's advertising absurdity. There actually is a difference. Temperature and control. RoHS takes more of both. That's why they have as many as 12 zones (as ours does, though it's not the one I linked). That many zones isn't necessary for a lead solder process. The margin of error is almost zero with RoHS. I think that's utter nonsense. |
#33
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 30, 2:31*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Evan" wrote in message ... On May 30, 9:56 am, "RBM" wrote: ** I rarely find burn outs from improperly connected Edison circuits. I'd have to say that a good percentage of Edison circuits that I explore, are incorrectly done. Typically, I just find the white wire turns brown from the excessive heat, right at the neutral buss. The OP has a classic, loose connection under a wire nut, with a high amperage draw, over time anneals the copper, degrades and overheats the connection to the point of disintegration, and opens the circuit. Right, except how often do you open up a switch box which has multiple circuits fed into it and see ALL of the white neutral wires connected together ? **I don't believe that there are multiple circuits in this junction box. It sounds to me like it's one circuit branching off in several directions.This was standard practice some years ago. Typically, where you find the burn, you have the problem. It's not impossible that the problem is something more obscure, just that it typically isn't. I never said it had to be an Edison circuit, just that if someone had made an incorrect connection somewhere upstream and connected the neutral wires from more than one circuit together that could cause the exact same issue... Given that the bathroom outlet was replaced with one with a higher rating by someone who obviously didn't know what they were doing all bets are off -- there could be several factors which added up to cause that burn out... Not necessarily. Most GFCI receps are rated @ 20A even if they are NEMA 5-15R. (so they can be used on a 20A circuit... like a bathroom.) Someone probably had a recep in the bathroom and decided to replace it with a GFCI to make it closer to conforming to current code. Makes sense to me. Problem is that the ckt. is still 15A and the OP is putting high load on it (which is the reason for the 20A requirement in the first place.) We're just speculating at this point as to why the neutral connection is "melted." Now if the GFCI is in fact NEMA 5-20R then someone did something that they shouldn't have, although it is still not the source of the problem. nate Again, no one seems to know what else besides the one GFCI bathroom outlet is also on the same circuit... ~~ Evan |
#34
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 31, 8:19*am, N8N wrote:
On May 30, 2:31*pm, "RBM" wrote: "Evan" wrote in message .... On May 30, 9:56 am, "RBM" wrote: ** I rarely find burn outs from improperly connected Edison circuits. I'd have to say that a good percentage of Edison circuits that I explore, are incorrectly done. Typically, I just find the white wire turns brown from the excessive heat, right at the neutral buss. The OP has a classic, loose connection under a wire nut, with a high amperage draw, over time anneals the copper, degrades and overheats the connection to the point of disintegration, and opens the circuit. Right, except how often do you open up a switch box which has multiple circuits fed into it and see ALL of the white neutral wires connected together ? **I don't believe that there are multiple circuits in this junction box.. It sounds to me like it's one circuit branching off in several directions.This was standard practice some years ago. Typically, where you find the burn, you have the problem. It's not impossible that the problem is something more obscure, just that it typically isn't. I never said it had to be an Edison circuit, just that if someone had made an incorrect connection somewhere upstream and connected the neutral wires from more than one circuit together that could cause the exact same issue... Given that the bathroom outlet was replaced with one with a higher rating by someone who obviously didn't know what they were doing all bets are off -- there could be several factors which added up to cause that burn out... Not necessarily. *Most GFCI receps are rated @ 20A even if they are NEMA 5-15R. *(so they can be used on a 20A circuit... like a bathroom.) *Someone probably had a recep in the bathroom and decided to replace it with a GFCI to make it closer to conforming to current code. *Makes sense to me. *Problem is that the ckt. is still 15A and the OP is putting high load on it (which is the reason for the 20A requirement in the first place.) *We're just speculating at this point as to why the neutral connection is "melted." Now if the GFCI is in fact NEMA 5-20R then someone did something that they shouldn't have, although it is still not the source of the problem. nate Again, no one seems to know what else besides the one GFCI bathroom outlet is also on the same circuit... ~~ Evan REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY PLUG INTO THE CIRCUIT IT IS LIMITED AND PROTECTED UPTO 15AMPS. I AM WITH EVANS SCHOOL THAT SAYS THE GFCI WAS WIRED IMPROPERLY WITH A LOOSE NEUTRAL CONNECTION....THEREFOR THE OVERHEATED OR MELTED INSULATION. MASTER ELECTRICIANS AND PROFESSIONAL HANDYMEN DO NOT USE PUSHIN CONNECTOR HOLES IN RECEPTACLES, AND SECURE ALL CONDUCTORS TIGHTLY WITH THE SCREW OPTION ALWAYS. TGITM |
#35
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 31, 1:45*pm, The Ghost in The Machine
wrote: On May 31, 8:19*am, N8N wrote: On May 30, 2:31*pm, "RBM" wrote: "Evan" wrote in message .... On May 30, 9:56 am, "RBM" wrote: ** I rarely find burn outs from improperly connected Edison circuits. I'd have to say that a good percentage of Edison circuits that I explore, are incorrectly done. Typically, I just find the white wire turns brown from the excessive heat, right at the neutral buss. The OP has a classic, loose connection under a wire nut, with a high amperage draw, over time anneals the copper, degrades and overheats the connection to the point of disintegration, and opens the circuit. Right, except how often do you open up a switch box which has multiple circuits fed into it and see ALL of the white neutral wires connected together ? **I don't believe that there are multiple circuits in this junction box. It sounds to me like it's one circuit branching off in several directions.This was standard practice some years ago. Typically, where you find the burn, you have the problem. It's not impossible that the problem is something more obscure, just that it typically isn't. I never said it had to be an Edison circuit, just that if someone had made an incorrect connection somewhere upstream and connected the neutral wires from more than one circuit together that could cause the exact same issue... Given that the bathroom outlet was replaced with one with a higher rating by someone who obviously didn't know what they were doing all bets are off -- there could be several factors which added up to cause that burn out... Not necessarily. *Most GFCI receps are rated @ 20A even if they are NEMA 5-15R. *(so they can be used on a 20A circuit... like a bathroom.) *Someone probably had a recep in the bathroom and decided to replace it with a GFCI to make it closer to conforming to current code. *Makes sense to me. *Problem is that the ckt. is still 15A and the OP is putting high load on it (which is the reason for the 20A requirement in the first place.) *We're just speculating at this point as to why the neutral connection is "melted." Now if the GFCI is in fact NEMA 5-20R then someone did something that they shouldn't have, although it is still not the source of the problem. nate Again, no one seems to know what else besides the one GFCI bathroom outlet is also on the same circuit... ~~ Evan REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY PLUG INTO THE CIRCUIT IT IS LIMITED AND PROTECTED UPTO 15AMPS. I AM WITH EVANS SCHOOL THAT SAYS THE GFCI WAS WIRED IMPROPERLY WITH A LOOSE NEUTRAL CONNECTION....THEREFOR THE OVERHEATED OR MELTED INSULATION. MASTER ELECTRICIANS AND PROFESSIONAL HANDYMEN DO NOT USE PUSHIN CONNECTOR HOLES IN RECEPTACLES, AND SECURE ALL CONDUCTORS TIGHTLY WITH THE SCREW OPTION ALWAYS. TGITM I agree with everything that you say... I was just pointing out that saying that someone installed the wrong GFCI because it's "20 AMP" isn't necessarily a true statement. Most GFCIs w/ NEMA 5-15R receptacle(s) are still rated @ 20A because 5-15Rs are permitted on a 20A circuit and it is often convenient to use a GFCI recep as the first one in a "string" rather than using a GFCI breaker. But if it has a true NEMA 5-20R recep then it was the wrong device but not the cause of the problem. nate |
#36
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
I agree with everything that you say... I was just pointing out that
saying that someone installed the wrong GFCI because it's "20 AMP" isn't necessarily a true statement. ** When it's installed on a 15 amp circuit, it's a correct statement. When an electrical receptacle is referred to as 15, 20, 30 amp, etc. the reference is being made to the devices configuration, not it's pass through capacity Most GFCIs w/ NEMA 5-15R receptacle(s) are still rated @ 20A because 5-15Rs are permitted on a 20A circuit and it is often convenient to use a GFCI recep as the first one in a "string" rather than using a GFCI breaker. But if it has a true NEMA 5-20R recep then it was the wrong device but not the cause of the problem. nate |
#37
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 31, 4:38*pm, "RBM" wrote:
I agree with everything that you say... *I was just pointing out that saying that someone installed the wrong GFCI because it's "20 AMP" isn't necessarily a true statement. ** When it's installed on a 15 amp circuit, it's a correct statement. When an electrical receptacle is referred to as 15, 20, 30 amp, etc. the reference is being made to the devices configuration, not it's pass through capacity You're assuming that the OP is using the same conventions and terminology that you do. I haven't seen yet where he specified. Irrelevant anyway as when was the last time you saw a hair dryer with a 20A plug? nate |
#38
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On Mon, 30 May 2011 22:18:26 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote: In article , " wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 20:46:12 -0700, Smitty Two wrote: In article , " wrote: A "lead-free" reflow oven? There is no lead in the process. Your point? My point is that there is no damn difference between a reflow oven for leaded solder and a reflow oven for RoHS solder. It's advertising absurdity. There actually is a difference. Temperature and control. RoHS takes more of both. That's why they have as many as 12 zones (as ours does, though it's not the one I linked). That many zones isn't necessary for a lead solder process. The margin of error is almost zero with RoHS. I think that's utter nonsense. You're certainly welcome to believe what you want, but you can't have your own set of facts. Sorry. That's why we replaced the oven. Four zones wasn't enough to do RoHS reliably. The RoHS process really is that tricky to do right. You should learn something about the subject before spouting such nonsense. Your continued defense is telling, though. |
#39
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On May 31, 7:43*pm, "
wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 22:18:26 -0700, Smitty Two wrote: In article , " wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 20:46:12 -0700, Smitty Two wrote: In article , " wrote: A "lead-free" reflow oven? There is no lead in the process. *Your point? My point is that there is no damn difference between a reflow oven for leaded solder and a reflow oven for RoHS solder. It's advertising absurdity. There actually is a difference. *Temperature and control. *RoHS takes more of both. *That's why they have as many as 12 zones (as ours does, though it's not the one I linked). *That many zones isn't necessary for a lead solder process. The margin of error is almost zero with RoHS. I think that's utter nonsense. You're certainly welcome to believe what you want, but you can't have your own set of facts. *Sorry. * That's why we replaced the oven. *Four zones wasn't enough to do RoHS reliably. *The RoHS process really is that tricky to do right. * You should learn something about the subject before spouting such nonsense. Your continued defense is telling, though. I SEE YOU ARE LICKING SPACKLING NOW...JUST STICK YOUR HEAD IN THAT OFF TOPIC OVEN YOU KEEP BRINGING UP...THE REAPER REALLY WANTS TO UPDATE YOUR DEPARTURE. HE DOESNT CARE IF YOU WORK FOR THE FENCE OR NOT, THE GRASS IS GREENER THAN YOU THINK. BOOWAHAHAHAHA YOU ARE OUR OFFICIAL HOLIDAY OVEN STUFFED ROASTER. NOBODY CALLED.......SAVE THE CHILDREN!!!!! THE ADULTS ARE ALL HOLSTERED, TOASTED AND TOTALLY INSANE. TGITM PATECUM THEY WANT TO KNOW..WHAT IS A GFCI AGAIN. BOOWAHAHAHA...BANGOR. |
#40
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20amp GFCI outlet on a 15amp circuit. melted wires
On Tue, 31 May 2011 20:00:26 -0700 (PDT), The Ghost in The Machine
wrote: I just use the word "nonsense" and who walks in but Roy Queerjano! Right on cue, Queerjano! |
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