On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220 circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT nonsense.

wrote:
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

The reason they want you to turn off the power is so you can take the
wire nuts off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

Isn't that a catch-22? Until you have the wire nuts off, you have no
way of telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when the power is off.

Worse, with that many wires, you may have more than one circuit, from
more than one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and black wires
are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still could be.
Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.

What about an Edison circuit?

OK, here it is:

The cable that provides electricity to your house can be very dangerous. In order to provide you with the information you need to understand what's going on inside your electrical panel, this write-up explains the basics of house wiring:

The wires that run overhead to your house carry 220 volt power. That 220 volt power is delivered via a cable that contains two power lines and a neutral wire. The two power lines each carry 110 volts AC, but they are "out of phase" by 180 degrees. That is, when one power line is at +110 volts with respect to the neutral wire, the other power line will be at -110 volts with respect to the neutral wire, and vice versa. So the voltage you would measure between the two power supply wires would be 220 volts AC. On appliance wiring diagrams for 220 volt appliances, the two power lines will typically be called "L1" and "L2" for "Line 1" and "Line 2", respectively. In practice, Line 1 and Line 2 will ALWAYS be the red and black wires (meaning the insulation on them will be red or black in color), and the neutral wire will have white insulation. Grounding wires will be green or bare (with no insulation).

The standard 110 volt circuits for the ceiling lights, ceiling fans or electric outlets in your house are made by connecting those circuits between EITHER the main red wire OR the main black wire coming into your house from the generating station and the white neutral wire. All of those circuits between the power wires and the white neutral wire begin and end in your house's electrical panel. A fuse or circuit breaker is provided for each such circuit in your house. So, some of the 110 volt circuits in your house that provide power to lights, fans or electric outlets are powered by that red wire, and some are powered by that black wire. As long as the circuit is between the red wire and the white wire, or between the black wire and the white wire, you have a 110 volt AC circuit. If you put a 15 amp fuse or breaker on that circuit, then you have a 110 volt 15 amp circuit, and normally the circuits going to the lights, ceiling fans and electrical outlets in your house will be 110 volt 15 amp circuits. On newer homes, they'll often use 20 amp breakers for the circuits going to the electrical outlets in the kitchen to prevent nuisance fuse blowing and breakers tripping because of too many small kitchen appliances being used at the same time.

220 volt circuits for the house's electric stove and/or electric clothes dryer are made by connecting the circuit between the main black and red wires at the electrical panel. Both the red and black wires carry 110 volts AC with respect the the white neutral wire, but because they're 180 degrees out of phase, you'd measure 220 volts AC between the red and black wires. So, if you connect a circuit between the main black and main red wire going into the house, then you have a 220 volt circuit. If you're wiring a range, you normally need a 50 amp circuit, which requires a 50 amp breaker on BOTH the red and black wires going to the range. If you're wiring an electric dryer, you need a 30 amp circuit, so that means you must have 30 amp breakers on both the red and black wires going to the dryer. The fuses and breakers that control the current through every circuit are located inside your house's electrical panel.

When you open a typical electrical panel you'll notice that the fuses or circuit breakers are typically arranged in two vertical rows; one on each side of the panel. Do not assume that one side of the panel is for tapping off the red power line and the other is for tapping off the black power line. The buss bars inside the electrical panel determine what gets connected where, and often breaker positions above or below one another on the same side of the panel will be connected to opposite voltage sources. This is done so that the circuit breakers can be "ganged together" so that you can't trip the breaker off to one power line going to a stove or dryer without tripping the power off to BOTH power lines. In Manitoba, where I live, the electrical code requires that circuit breakers for 220V appliances be "ganged" together in this way for safety reasons.

The technically incorrect but easiest way to think about house wiring is that the power comes from the generating station on the red and black wires and goes back to the generating station on the white wire. Obviously it doesn't, but that way of thinking about it will at least help you better understand house and appliance wiring and the reasons behind doing certain things certain ways.

So, in the picture of the electrical panel in the previous post, the cable with the red stripe on it would be one 110 or 120 volt voltage source and the black cable without a stripe would the the other 110 or 120 volt voltage source. Those two cables connect to buss bars in the panel and the circuit breakers you plug into knock out slots in the panel will connect to one buss bar or the other. If it's a 15 amp breaker you can only draw 15 amps out of that buss bar. If it's a 20 amp breaker, for can draw 20 amps out of that buss bar without tripping the breaker off. You connect your cable between the panel and a ceiling fan and/or a light fixture and perhaps you have some electrical outlets on that same circuit. In practice, the light, fan and each electrical outlet will always be connected in parallel rather than series. That is, a black or red wire will carry the power from the circuit breaker in the panel to the first electrical box on that circuit. If there's a second electrical box on that circuit, there will also be a cable coming from it to the first electrical box in the circuit. Inside that first electrical box, the black or red wire from the electrical panel will be connected to the black or red wire from the second electrical box in the circuit, and a small piece of black or red wire (called a "pigtail") will be connected to them both. Similarily, the white wire from the electrical panel and the white wire from the second electrical box will connect together in the first electrical box, and connected to both white wires in that first electrical box will be a white "pigtail" as well. The duplex receptacle (if that's what's in the electrical box) will then be connected between the two pigtails.

Similarily, if there's a light switch in that first electrical box, there will also be another cable coming from the electrical box the light fixture is mounted on.
In that case:

a) the black or red pigtail will be connected to one side of the switch
b) the black or red wire coming from the light fixture will be connected to the other side of the switch, and
c) the white wire from the light fixture will be connected to the white pigtail.

(In actuality, the electricians would simply connect all three white wires together in the above example rather than connecting a pigtail and two white wires together, and then connecting the third white wire from the light fixture to the white pigtail. They'd do that just to save work, but having a white pigtail in there would work equally well.)


The thing to remember here is that lights, fans and electrical outlets in your house will always be connected in parallel; NEVER in series.


This web site limits posts to 10,000 characters, so I'm going to have to continue this blurb in the next post.

Blurb continued...


As stated before, the technically incorrect but easiest way to think about house wiring is that the power comes from the generating station on the red and black wires and goes back to the generating station on the white wire. You can use that same analogy when it comes to the individual circuits in your house as well. Think of the fresh electricity coming from the electrical panel on the black or red wires and the used electricity going back to the panel on the white wire. Again, it doesn't, but that way of thinking about it will at least help you better understand the reasons why electricians do certain things certain ways.

For example, in the previous example of an electrical box in a circuit with a switch in it to turn a light in another electrical box on and off, we can run into a bit of complication if instead of a switch we have the light fixture in the electrical box and the switch located in an electrical box located somewhere else. That's because the cable going from the electrical box with the light fixture to the electrical box with the switch will have a black and a white wire in it. Now, normally the white wire carries the used electricity back to the electrical panel, but in this case both the black wire and the white wire from the switch are carrying fresh electricity from the electrical panel to the light fixture, and neither wire is carrying used electricity back to the electrical panel. In that case, it's customary to mark the white wire to indicate to everyone else, that THIS white wire is supplying fresh electricity from the electrical panel by marking it somehow. Typically, some black electrical tape will be wrapped around the white wire to distinguish it from other white wires, or the end of the white wire can be painted black with a felt pen or any other indication that it's not a normal white wire carrying used electricity back to the electrical panel. When any wire is used for a purpose other than what the colour of it's insulation would incidate, it's called a "traveller", and it should be marked as a traveller by putting something on it of the correct colour to indicate it's actual useage. So, if a red wire was being used as a ground wire in some inexplicable situation, you'd wrap green electrical tape on it to indicate that it's being used for a purpose other than what it's insulation colour would suggest. If you come across any travellers in your house, it's best to draw some diagrams of what gets connected to what before you take anything apart.

Now, there is a standard wiring convention when working with 120 volt electrical power. You will notice that the screw connections on one side of the duplex receptacle will be steel or chrome plated, whereas those on the other side will be bare brass or brass plated steel. The 120 volt wiring convention is to always connect the light coloured wire to the light coloured screw, and the dark coloured wire to the dark coloured screw. So, if you are mounting a duplex receptacle in an electrical box, you would connect the black or red pigtail to either of the bare brass screws on one side of the duplex receptacle and the white pigtail to either of the chrome plated screws on the other side of the duplex receptacle. The same convention holds true for wiring the male and female ends of extension cords; the dark coloured insulation always goes to the dark screw and the light coloured insulation always goes to the light coloured screw. You'll notice that on switches, both screws will be identical because the switch should always be on the black or red supply side of the circuit, not the white return side of the circuit.

The reason for this convention is safety. If homeowners, electricians and appliance manufacturers all follow this wiring convention, that will ensure that the on/off switch for 110 VAC appliances will always be on the power supply wire (that is, the red or black wire). And, this is important from a safety perspective because it ensures that the on/off switch will shut off power from coming into the appliance. In the time before electrical plugs and receptacles were "polarized", both prongs on a cord plug and both slots of an electrical receptacle were the same size. So, you could plug a 110 VAC appliance into a receptacle with the plug either right side up or upside down. The appliance would work equally well either way. However, in one of these positions the on/off switch to the appliance would be on the power supply wire and would shut off the power going into the appliance. In the other position, the on/off switch would be on the white neutral wire and would shut off the power getting out of the appliance. So, if there were a short circuit in the appliance, having the switch on the power supply wire would ensure that there would be no power in the appliance when the appliances on/off switch was in the off position. But, if the plug was upside down, then the on/off switch would be on the white wire, then there would ALWAYS be power in the appliance as long as it was plugged in. So, you could still get a shock from the appliance even if it was turned off. That's cuz the switch is now only preventing power from leaving the appliance via the white wire. The power can still come into the appliance via the black or red power supply wire and leave the appliance via some other route, like through YOUR BODY!!! Thus, if you happened to be touching a faucet while you were touching a toaster with a short circuit in it, you could end up getting 110 volts at 15 amps across your heart even if the toaster was turned off at the time, and that could potentially kill you. Thus, by sticking to this dark wire to dark screw wiring convention, we always end up with the appliance on/off switch on the power supply line, and that ensures that appliances can't give you a shock if they're turned off.

There is also a standard wiring convention used when wiring the plugs, receptacles and terminal blocks of 220 volt appliances, all of which will have provision for connecting THREE wires as well as a ground wire. Normally the ground wire terminal will be easy to identify because it will be grounded to the electrical box by an electrical conductor, and the remaining three connection points for the red, white and black wires will be arranged in a row. The wiring convention for 220 volt appliances is that the white neutral wire is ALWAYS connected to the middle terminal in that row of three connection sites, and the red and black wires are connected on either side of the white wire. It doesn't matter which side you connect the red or the black wires to, as long as the white is in the middle and the red and black are on the outside, you're good to go. If your stove or dryer doesn't come with a cord and you want to connect one to the terminal block of the appliance, the same rule applies, namely "white in the middle, black and red on the outside". If you're wanting to wire a receptacle for a stove or electric dryer, then again, the same rule applies. First identify the ground wire terminal, and the remaining three connection points will be for the red, white and black wires and they should be arranged in a recognizable "row". Always connect the white in the middle of those three sites and the red and black on either side of the white.

Every dryer cord will have 4 prongs sticking out of it. The straight ones are for the red and black wires, the "L" shaped one is for the white wire and the round one is for the ground wire. Range cords also have 4 prongs, but they will use 3 straight prongs for the red, black and white wires and a round one for the ground wire. Configuring the plug and receptacle differently (with an "L" shaped prong instead of a straight one) is done so you can't stick a 30 amp dryer plug into a 50 amp range receptacle or vice versa.

The heating elements in both electric dryers and stoves require 220 volt power, but you still need to run the white wire to the stove or dryer. The reason why is that there will be circuits within the stove or dryer that require only 110 volt power. For example, the electric motor that turns the dryer drum or the light bulb inside an oven will both require 110 volt AC power, not 220 volt power. So, in an electric stove the heating elements will be connected between the red and black wires because they need 220 volts, but the electrical outlets provided for convenience on the stove console will be connected between the white wire and either the red or black power wires, because the convenience outlet is intended to provide only 110 volts to power 110 volt appliances. And, this is also why you can have TWO convenience outlets on a stove instead of just one. One of those convenience outlets will be powered by the black wire, and the other one by the red wire. Since the main black and red wires going to a stove are fused at 50 amps each in the electrical panel, any circuit between the red and white OR black and white wires inside the stove will give you a 110 volt 50 AMP CIRCUIT which probably won't stop pumping out the electricity if there's a short anywhere in that circuit, and 50 amps going through wiring rated at 15 amps is a great way to start a fire. That's why for the electric outlets provided for convenience on range cooktops, there will be a 15 amp fuse right in the range somewhere that fuses each convenience outlet down to 15 amps. If you have two cooktop plugs, one will be driven by the red wire and one by the black wire, and each will have a separate 15 amp fuse on it.

Again I have to break this blurb into yet a third post...

So, Timbirr, the way you would proceed would be as follows:

1. Find out which breaker in your electrical panel shut off the power to the
black wire in that electrical box and which breaker shuts off the power to the red wire in that electrical box.

2. Trip those breakers off and see if everything in the house still works. If not, if the thing that now doesn't work draws a lot of electricity, like an air conditioner, then you might be overloading that circuit by putting anything else on it (like an electrical outlet where you can plug in another air conditioner). But, if everything still works OK, then proceed as follows:

3. Install a pigtail where the two black wires connect together OR where the two red wires connect together. If you're starting to do electrical work, it'd be best to buy some 12 gauge solid wire with black insulation, some with red insulation, some with white insulation and some with green insulation for ground wires. Then if you're pigtailing to the black, red or white wires, you have the correct coloured wire to make the pigtail with.

4. Install a pigtail where the two white wires connect together.

5. Connect the red or black pigtail to one of the bare brass or brass plated screws on one side of the duplex receptacle and the white pigtail to one of the chrome plated or bare steel screws on the other side of the receptacle.

6. Screw the receptacle into the electrical box, and put the plastic wall plate on.

Note, you will only be drawing power off the black wire OR the red wire in this circuit because it's only a 120 volt power you need in that duplex receptacle. If you draw power from the black wire, you won't have to use the red wires at all. Similarily, if you pigtail to the red wires, you won't need to use the black wires at all.

Hope this helps.

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220 circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has had
the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an Edison
circuit. But that may just be me...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

When a marginally knowledgable person stumbles on to a electrical
mystery, with a box that will be jammed when they are done adding a
outlet to a already full box the easiest thing.

Forget about the mystery, since at best it will be overfull......

Its far easier to add a box close by fed from a convenient location.

Boxes and wire are pretty cheap. Far cheaper than calling a
electrician.

I have some friends who were tough to deal with. They re arranged
their kitchen and tried to insist on moving outlets to save $$$.

I said if you want me to do this job and remember I am FREE, then you
are buying the necessary supplies!

They were unhappy but not stupid. They papered over one blank box to
save the cost of a blank plate, if I had known I would of given them
one.......

Espically when dealing with old work running a new wire and outlet is
often the easiest solution.

My moms house had a dead outlet I checked it out and somehow the
black wire right where it entered the box had broke off.... With only
a tiny bit showing I wire nutted it and put a blank plate over the now
empty box.

Then installed a nice new box and outlet a foot away. Not only was it
more convenient, but a far easier job that I knew would last forever
since the home was being sold...

Incidently I did lots of work the home inspectors passed everything

Except the first buyers inspector flagged the lack of GFCI on the
garage sump pump. The deal fell thru for other reasons....... But I
added the GFCI.

Home buyer number 2 had his inspection, and flagged the electrical for
ONE thing, claimed the same garage sump pump shouldnt be on a GFCI

On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220 circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has had
the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an Edison
circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit on
the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and the
tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.

Blurb continued...

Now, up until now we've been saying that the black and red wires in your house carried fresh voltage and current sine waves from the electrical panel and that the white wire carried the used voltage and current back to the electrical panel.

If you stop to think about it, if the black voltage and current supply sine wave is 180 degrees out of phase with the red voltage and current sine waves, then they SHOULD cancel each other out perfectly where they come together in the white wire. And that would mean that there should be NO voltage OR current at all in the white wire. That is, if the voltage sine wave is at +120 volts in the red wire, it should be at -120 volts in the black wire at the same time, so what would be the voltage when those sine waves meet in the white wire? +120 -120 = 0, or zero voltage in the white wire. And, the current in the white wire would also be zero because you can't have current without a voltage to drive that current.

If the world was perfect, and Lassie didn't kill chickens, and all electrical loads were purely resistive, like light bulbs, toasters, electric ranges and coffee makers, then the voltage and current sine waves from the two power supply wires would indeed cancel each other out, and there would be theoretically be ZERO voltage and ZERO current in the white wire.

However, in the real world there are electric motors and television sets and computer monitors, all of which have some "impedance". In an electric motor, for example, the magnetic fields created by the electric motor windings impeded the flow of current through those same motor windings, so the motor windings themselves cause the current sine wave coming out of the motor to lag behind the applied voltage sine wave. In television sets and those old CRT style computer monitors you have huge capacitors. In a capacitor, the current OUT of the capacitor is highest when the CHANGE in voltage is highest, and that occurs when the voltage sine wave passes through the point of ZERO voltage. So capacitors cause the current sine wave coming out of those computer monitors and TV sets to be out of phase with the applied voltage sine wave as well.

So, even though the red and black wires carry equal and opposite 110 AC voltage sine waves, the impedance of "reactive" loads like electric motors and TV sets cause timing differences in the resulting current sine waves coming out of those loads. As a result, the current and voltage sine waves generally DON'T cancel out in the white wire, and there can be significant voltages and currents in the white wire as a result. So, to be safe, treat the white wire as having dangerous voltage in it too.

On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 19:44:37 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

When a marginally knowledgable person stumbles on to a electrical
mystery, with a box that will be jammed when they are done adding a
outlet to a already full box the easiest thing.

Forget about the mystery, since at best it will be overfull......

Its far easier to add a box close by fed from a convenient location.

Why do you think the box is blanked up? Do you think it might be
because the original installation could have been a switched
receptacle that has been removed?

If there was room for the outlet then, don't you think there will be
room for an outlet now?

Boxes and wire are pretty cheap. Far cheaper than calling a
electrician.

I have some friends who were tough to deal with. They re arranged
their kitchen and tried to insist on moving outlets to save $$$.

I said if you want me to do this job and remember I am FREE, then you
are buying the necessary supplies!

They were unhappy but not stupid. They papered over one blank box to
save the cost of a blank plate, if I had known I would of given them
one.......

Espically when dealing with old work running a new wire and outlet is
often the easiest solution.

My moms house had a dead outlet I checked it out and somehow the
black wire right where it entered the box had broke off.... With only
a tiny bit showing I wire nutted it and put a blank plate over the now
empty box.

Then installed a nice new box and outlet a foot away. Not only was it
more convenient, but a far easier job that I knew would last forever
since the home was being sold...

Incidently I did lots of work the home inspectors passed everything

Except the first buyers inspector flagged the lack of GFCI on the
garage sump pump. The deal fell thru for other reasons....... But I
added the GFCI.

Home buyer number 2 had his inspection, and flagged the electrical for
ONE thing, claimed the same garage sump pump shouldnt be on a GFCI

On 4/2/2013 4:46 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
For tracing sockets, you can plug in a radio. Turn it up loud, and find the
fuse that makes the noise stop and restart. Tracing circuit breakers (not
Federal Pacific Electric) can be done by the Jesus method, or by overload
the circuit deliberately. Go see which one tripped.
.

Trying to steal my material there Stormy? I had to use "The Jesus
Method" the other day on a job. It's fun to scare people and listen
to the wires slapping the conduit when they jump around inside it. ^_^

TDD

On 4/2/2013 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220 circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has had
the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an Edison
circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit on
the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and the
tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.


I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring or even isolated ground receptacles for electronic gear power. o_O

TDD

On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 21:02:13 +0000 (UTC), Red Green
wrote:

Ditto. No is the correct answer.

No one can tell from here what it is. The reds & blacks just mean they
are used as hot wires. Could be switched, could be travelers for 3-way,
could be switched with always on power carried through downstream, etc.

Could have been a device there at one time then blanked up. Could just be
a hub that's left accessable (as it should be).

Not likely 220 unless it's connected to 10ga or heavier wire/breaker.

Most definitive thing that can be said from here is neither you or FIL
should mess with it without someone who is more knowledgable and can
actually see it.

Actually, the OP should use the special tool made for inexperienced
homeowners who want to do wiring, but dont know how. The tool is called
a telephone book. Go to the "E" pages, find the word "electrician", and
call one of them.

wrote in :

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220 circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT nonsense.

"Split receptacle" in NO WAY implies an Edison circuit. It's common to have one half of a
duplex receptacle controlled by a wall switch, and the other half unswitched -- with both
halves being on the same 120V circuit.

wrote in :

On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220 circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has had
the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an Edison
circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit on
the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and the
tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.

It's been pointed out to you before -- more than once -- that you make the mistake of
assuming that what is Code in Canada is Code everywhere. Yet you continue to repeat that
same mistake, over and over and over.

On Apr 3, 7:03*am, Doug Miller
wrote:
wrote :

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote :

* Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220 circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT nonsense.

"Split receptacle" in NO WAY implies an Edison circuit. It's common to have one half of a
duplex receptacle controlled by a wall switch, and the other half unswitched -- with both
halves being on the same 120V circuit.

+1

On Apr 2, 10:06*pm, nestork wrote:
Blurb continued...

As stated before, the technically incorrect but easiest way to
think about house wiring is that the power comes from the generating
station on the red and black wires and goes back to the generating
station on the white wire. You can use that same analogy when it comes
to the individual circuits in your house as well.


That simplification works until you come across the first 240V circuit
or an Edison circuit.




*The power comes from
the electrical panel on the black or red wires and goes back to the
panel on the white wire. *Again, it doesn't, but that way of thinking
about it will at least help you better understand the reasons behind
doing certain things certain ways.

Actually for almost all the 120V circuits, it does come from
the panel on the black or red and goes back on the the white.
Exception would be any Edison circuits.





For example, there is a standard wiring convention when wiring 110
volt electrical outlets. *You will notice that the screw connections on
one side of the duplex receptacle will be chrome plated, whereas those
on the other side will be bare brass. *The 120 volt wiring convention is
to always connect the light coloured wire to the light coloured screw,
and the dark coloured wire to the dark coloured screw. *So, if you are
mounting a duplex receptacle in an electrical box, you would connect the
black or red pigtail to either of the *bare brass screws on one side of
the duplex receptacle and the white pigtail to either of the chrome
plated screws on the other side of the duplex receptacle. *The same
convention holds true for wiring the male and female ends of extension
cords; the dark coloured insulation always goes to the dark screw and
the light coloured insulation always goes to the light coloured screw.
You'll notice that on switches, both screws will be identical because
the switch should always be on the black or red supply side of the
circuit, not the white return side of the circuit.

The reason for this convention is safety. *If homeowners,
electricians and appliance manufacturers all follow this wiring
convention, that will ensure that the on/off switch for 110 VAC
appliances will always be on the power supply wire (that is, the red or
black wire). *And, this is important from a safety perspective because
it ensures that the on/off switch will shut off power from coming into
the appliance. *In the time before electrical plugs and receptacles were
"polarized", both prongs on a cord plug and both slots of an electrical
receptacle were the same size. *So, you could plug a 110 VAC appliance
into a receptacle with the plug either right side up or upside down.
The appliance would work equally well either way. *However, in one of
these positions the on/off switch to the appliance would be on the power
supply wire and would shut off the power going into the appliance. *In
the other position, the on/off switch would be on the white neutral wire
and would shut off the power getting out of the appliance. *So, if there
were a short circuit in the appliance, having the switch on the power
supply wire would ensure that there would be no power in the appliance
when the appliances on/off switch was in the off position. *But, if the
plug was upside down, then the on/off switch would be on the white wire,
then there would ALWAYS be power in the appliance as long as it was
plugged in. *So, you could still get a shock from the appliance even if
it was turned off. *That's cuz the switch is now only preventing power
from leaving the appliance via the white wire. *The power can still come
into the appliance via the black or red power supply wire and leave the
appliance via some other route, like through YOUR BODY!!! *Thus, if you
happened to be touching a faucet while you were touching a toaster with
a short circuit in it, you could end up getting 110 volts at 15 amps
across your heart even if the toaster was turned off at the time, and
that could potentially kill you. *Thus, by sticking to this dark wire to
dark screw wiring convention, we always end up with the appliance on/off
switch on the power supply line, and that ensures that appliances can't
give you a shock if they're turned off.

There is also a standard wiring convention used when wiring the
plugs, receptacles and terminal blocks of 220 volt appliances, all of
which will have provision for connecting THREE wires as well as a ground
wire.

There are a lot of older 3 wire 240 volt receptacles out
there too.



*Normally the ground wire terminal will be easy to identify
because it will be grounded to the electrical box by an electrical
conductor, and the remaining three connection points for the red, white
and black wires will be arranged in a row. *The wiring convention for
220 volt appliances is that the white neutral wire is ALWAYS connected
to the middle terminal in that row of three connection sites, and the
red and black wires are connected on either side of it. *It doesn't
matter which side you connect the red or the black wires to, as long as
the white is in the middle and the red and black are on the outside,
you're good to go. *If your stove or dryer doesn't come with a cord and
you want to connect one to the terminal block of the appliance, the same
rule applies, namely "white in the middle, black and red on the
outside". *If you're wanting to wire a receptacle for a stove or
electric dryer, then again, the same rule applies. *First identify the
ground wire terminal, and the remaining three connection points will be
for the red, white and black wires and they should be arranged in a
recognizable "row". *Always connect the white in the middle of those
three sites and the red and black on either side of the white.

Every dryer cord will have 4 prongs sticking out of it. The
straight ones are for the red and black wires, the "L" shaped one is for
the white wire and the round one is for the ground wire. *Range cords
also have 4 prongs, but they will use 3 straight prongs for the red,
black and white wires and a round one for the ground wire. *Configuring
the plug and receptacle differently (with an "L" shaped prong instead of
a straight one) is done so you can't stick a 30 amp dryer plug into a 50
amp range receptacle or vice versa.

The heating elements in both electric dryers and stoves require 220
volt power, but you still need to run the white wire to the stove or
dryer. The reason why is that there will be circuits within the stove or
dryer that require only 110 volt power. *For example, the electric motor
that turns the dryer drum or the light bulb inside an oven will both
require 110 volt AC power, not 220 volt power. *So, in an electric stove
the heating elements will be connected between the red and black wires
because they need 220 volts, but the electrical outlets provided for
convenience on the stove console will be connected between the white
wire and either the red or black power wires, because the convenience
outlet is intended to provide only 110 volts to power 110 volt
appliances. *And, this is also why you can have TWO convenience outlets
on a stove instead of just one. *One of those convenience outlets will
be powered by the black wire, and the other one by the red wire.

You could have one outlet or 10 outlets powered by
either hot leg, the above makes no sense.




*Since
the main black and red wires going to a stove are fused at 50 amps each
in the electrical panel, any circuit between the red and white OR black
and white wires inside the stove will give you a 110 volt 50 AMP CIRCUIT
which probably won't stop pumping out the electricity if there's a short
anywhere in that circuit, and 50 amps going through wiring rated at 15
amps is a great way to start a fire. That's why for the electric outlets
provided for convenience on range cooktops, there will be a 15 amp fuse
right in the range somewhere that fuses each convenience outlet down to
15 amps. If you have two cooktop plugs, one will be driven by the red
wire and one by the black wire, and each will have a separate 15 amp
fuse on it.

Also, if you stop to think about it, if the black supply wire is
feeding a 110 AC voltage sine wave into the white "return" wire and the
red supply wire is also feeding an equal but opposite voltage into that
same white "return" wire, then theoretically, there should be no voltage
in the white wire since the two sine voltage waves would cancel out.
Similarily, the resultant current sine waves from the red and black
wires would cancel each other out when they both meet at the white
"return" wire. *If the world was perfect and all electrical loads were
purely resistive, like light bulbs, toasters, electric ranges and coffee
makers, then the voltage and current sine waves from the two power
supply wires would indeed cancel each other out, and there would be
theoretically be ZERO voltage and ZERO current in the white wire.

However, in the real world there are electric motors and television sets
and computer monitors, all of which have some "impedance". *In an
electric motor, for example, the magnetic fields created by the electric
motor windings impeded the flow of current through those same motor
windings, so the motor windings themselves cause the current sine wave
coming out of the motor to lag behind the applied voltage sine wave.

Forget about motors, which just complicate matters even
more. Even with purely resistive loads,
for there to be zero current in the neutral, the loads have
to be EQUAL.




Also, television sets and those old CRT style computer monitors have
huge capacitors in them. *In a capacitor, the current OUT of the
capacitor is highest when the CHANGE in voltage is highest, and that
occurs when the voltage sine wave passes through the point of ZERO
voltage. *Thus, capacitors cause the current sine wave coming out of
those computer monitors and TV sets to actually preceed the applied
voltage sine wave. *So, even though the red and black wires carry equal
and opposite 110 AC voltage sine waves,

It's not the VOLTAGE that counts, it's the CURRENT. If
the two loads on each hot leg are not equal, then you
have current flowing in the neutral. You're always going
to see a 120V sine wave.


the impedance of "reactive"
loads like electric motors and TV sets cause timing differences in the
resulting current sine waves coming out of those loads. *So, the current
and voltage sine waves generally DON'T cancel out in the white wire, and
there can be significant voltages and currents in the white wire as a
result. *So, to be safe, treat every wire as having dangerous voltage in
it.

--
nestork

On Apr 2, 10:44*pm, bob haller wrote:
When a marginally knowledgable person stumbles on to a electrical
mystery, with a box that will be jammed when they are done adding a
outlet to a already full box the easiest thing.

Forget about the mystery, since at best it will be overfull......

Its far easier to add a box close by fed from a convenient location.

I think you're right that he'll wind up with too much
stuff per code for that box, assuming it's a small one,
typical for a single outlet. He could install a larger box
at that location. Or run a romex from that box to a
new receptacle box nearby.

On 4/2/2013 3:42 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The reason they want you to turn off the power is so you can take the wire nuts off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

Isn't that a catch-22? Until you have the wire nuts off, you have no way of telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when the power is off.

Worse, with that many wires, you may have more than one circuit, from more than one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still could be.
Didn't get in on the start of this thread, but if the red and black
are on outlets, they are likely splits - and they WILL be on different
circuits - but by law they need to be on tied breakers od fuse pulls
that cannot have one fuse removed at a time.. Thing is, you don't know
who wired it, when, and how - so you don't bet your life on it.

In the US, the NEC did not require common disconnect for a multiwire
branch circuit. (An Edison circuit is a multiwire, but a multiwire can
be 3-phase.) Then the NEC required a common disconnect for multiwire
that supplied a split wired receptacle - one circuit to each receptacle.
Now the NEC requires a common disconnect for any multiwire branch circuit.

I have not seen many split wired receptacles with 2 circuits, but they
are around, most likely in kitchens. Elsewhere likely half the
receptacle is switched.

If the wire is actually #12 it could be to supply a 220V receptacle. I
suspect it is #14.

On 4/3/2013 1:15 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 4/2/2013 3:42 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The reason they want you to turn off the power is so you can take
the wire nuts off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

Isn't that a catch-22? Until you have the wire nuts off, you have
no way of telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when
the power is off.

Worse, with that many wires, you may have more than one circuit,
from more than one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and
black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still
could be.
Didn't get in on the start of this thread, but if the red and black
are on outlets, they are likely splits - and they WILL be on different
circuits - but by law they need to be on tied breakers od fuse pulls
that cannot have one fuse removed at a time.. Thing is, you don't know
who wired it, when, and how - so you don't bet your life on it.

In the US, the NEC did not require common disconnect for a multiwire
branch circuit. (An Edison circuit is a multiwire, but a multiwire can
be 3-phase.) Then the NEC required a common disconnect for multiwire
that supplied a split wired receptacle - one circuit to each
receptacle. Now the NEC requires a common disconnect for any multiwire
branch circuit.

I have not seen many split wired receptacles with 2 circuits, but they
are around, most likely in kitchens. Elsewhere likely half the
receptacle is switched.

If the wire is actually #12 it could be to supply a 220V receptacle. I
suspect it is #14.



I've only ever seen split receptacles with two circuits in a few
commercial locations. Typically 120 volt on top and 240 volt on bottom,
and in a few commercial kitchens with typical Edison wiring, but before
GFCI protection was required. With GFCI regulations, it would be a
little expensive for a residential application.

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:53:27 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 4/3/2013 1:15 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 4/2/2013 3:42 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The reason they want you to turn off the power is so you can take
the wire nuts off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

Isn't that a catch-22? Until you have the wire nuts off, you have
no way of telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when
the power is off.

Worse, with that many wires, you may have more than one circuit,
from more than one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and
black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still
could be.
Didn't get in on the start of this thread, but if the red and black
are on outlets, they are likely splits - and they WILL be on different
circuits - but by law they need to be on tied breakers od fuse pulls
that cannot have one fuse removed at a time.. Thing is, you don't know
who wired it, when, and how - so you don't bet your life on it.

In the US, the NEC did not require common disconnect for a multiwire
branch circuit. (An Edison circuit is a multiwire, but a multiwire can
be 3-phase.) Then the NEC required a common disconnect for multiwire
that supplied a split wired receptacle - one circuit to each
receptacle. Now the NEC requires a common disconnect for any multiwire
branch circuit.

I have not seen many split wired receptacles with 2 circuits, but they
are around, most likely in kitchens. Elsewhere likely half the
receptacle is switched.

If the wire is actually #12 it could be to supply a 220V receptacle. I
suspect it is #14.



I've only ever seen split receptacles with two circuits in a few
commercial locations. Typically 120 volt on top and 240 volt on bottom,
and in a few commercial kitchens with typical Edison wiring, but before
GFCI protection was required. With GFCI regulations, it would be a
little expensive for a residential application.

I think Canada has the right idea. The US could require adjacent
outlets to be on a different circuit. Two circuits for the kitchen
but alternate them. It would be nice to be able to tell by looking at
the outlets which circuit they were on. I would use different colors,
but no one has ever accused me of being an interior decorator.

On 4/2/2013 5:44 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

The reason they want you to turn off the power is so you can take the wire nuts off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

Isn't that a catch-22? Until you have the wire nuts off, you have no way of telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when the power is off.

Worse, with that many wires, you may have more than one circuit, from more than one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still could be.
Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.
You would have a red wire at any switch location that has a feed and return

On Apr 3, 4:18*pm, Metspitzer wrote:
On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:53:27 -0400, RBM wrote:
On 4/3/2013 1:15 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 4/2/2013 3:42 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The reason they want you to turn off the power is so you can take
the wire nuts off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

Isn't that a catch-22? *Until you have the wire nuts off, you have
no way of telling if you got the right breaker. *You won't know when
the power is off.

Worse, with that many wires, you may have more than one circuit,
from more than one breaker. *It's not impossible that the red and
black wires are on separate circuits. *They shouldn't be, but still
could be.
* *Didn't get in on the start of this thread, but if the red and black
are on outlets, they are likely splits - and they WILL be on different
circuits - but by law they need to be on tied breakers od fuse pulls
that cannot have one fuse removed at a time.. Thing is, you don't know
who wired it, when, and how - so you don't bet your life on it.

In the US, the NEC did not require common disconnect for a multiwire
branch circuit. (An Edison circuit is a multiwire, but a multiwire can
be 3-phase.) Then the NEC required a common disconnect for multiwire
that supplied a split wired receptacle - one circuit to each
receptacle. Now the NEC requires a common disconnect for any multiwire
branch circuit.

I have not seen many split wired receptacles with 2 circuits, but they
are around, most likely in kitchens. Elsewhere likely half the
receptacle is switched.

If the wire is actually #12 it could be to supply a 220V receptacle. I
suspect it is #14.

I've only ever seen split receptacles with two circuits in a few
commercial locations. Typically 120 volt on top and 240 volt on bottom,
and in a few commercial kitchens with typical Edison wiring, but before
GFCI protection was required. With GFCI regulations, it would be a
little expensive for a residential application.

I think Canada has the right idea. *The US could require adjacent
outlets to be on a different circuit. *Two circuits for the kitchen
but alternate them. *It would be nice to be able to tell by looking at
the outlets which circuit they were on. *I would use different colors,
but no one has ever accused me of being an interior decorator.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That happens to be what I have, but not by any great design planning.

When I moved in, there weren't enough receptacles in the kitchen for
my setup (coffee maker, toaster oven, unobstructed receptacles for the
coffee grinder or blender, etc.)

It just so happened that adding an "every other receptacle" worked out
great. I put them on their own circuit because it was easier to just
run all new Romex and I had the space in the panel.

No, they are not color coded and yes, each run is protected with a
GFCI as the first receptacle in the chain.

On 04/02/2013 05:37 PM, ps56k wrote:

And what is a "normal" wiring for red/white/black,
and a duplex outlet than only has 2 screws (silver/gold) and a ground ?

Connect the red wire to ground :-)

On 4/3/2013 4:18 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:53:27 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 4/3/2013 1:15 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 4/2/2013 3:42 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The reason they want you to turn off the power is so you can take
the wire nuts off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

Isn't that a catch-22? Until you have the wire nuts off, you have
no way of telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when
the power is off.

Worse, with that many wires, you may have more than one circuit,
from more than one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and
black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still
could be.
Didn't get in on the start of this thread, but if the red and black
are on outlets, they are likely splits - and they WILL be on different
circuits - but by law they need to be on tied breakers od fuse pulls
that cannot have one fuse removed at a time.. Thing is, you don't know
who wired it, when, and how - so you don't bet your life on it.
In the US, the NEC did not require common disconnect for a multiwire
branch circuit. (An Edison circuit is a multiwire, but a multiwire can
be 3-phase.) Then the NEC required a common disconnect for multiwire
that supplied a split wired receptacle - one circuit to each
receptacle. Now the NEC requires a common disconnect for any multiwire
branch circuit.

I have not seen many split wired receptacles with 2 circuits, but they
are around, most likely in kitchens. Elsewhere likely half the
receptacle is switched.

If the wire is actually #12 it could be to supply a 220V receptacle. I
suspect it is #14.



I've only ever seen split receptacles with two circuits in a few
commercial locations. Typically 120 volt on top and 240 volt on bottom,
and in a few commercial kitchens with typical Edison wiring, but before
GFCI protection was required. With GFCI regulations, it would be a
little expensive for a residential application.
I think Canada has the right idea. The US could require adjacent
outlets to be on a different circuit. Two circuits for the kitchen
but alternate them. It would be nice to be able to tell by looking at
the outlets which circuit they were on. I would use different colors,
but no one has ever accused me of being an interior decorator.
I think doing it the Canadian way combined with our codes would require
expensive double pole GFCI breakers, or messy, crowded boxes using
12-2-2 wiring. I'm not sure what their receptacle spacing is, but in the
US. Having a receptacle at every slice of counter 12" and wider, and one
every four feet, certainly give you enough locations to plug in. As long
as the electrician installs ample circuits for the size of the kitchen,
and it's usage, there shouldn't be any problems. I do prefer running at
least one 12/3 loop to all counter outlets, so I at least have both
circuits at each location, so I can change the outlets depending upon usage.

"ps56k" wrote in news:kjfmfb$knb$1
@dont-email.me:

Called father-in-law who claims to know a lot.
He told me it was set up for a 220-circuit
and all I need to do was to unfasten all the wires,
wire nut off one of each color
and then take the remaining three wires
(red, white and black)
and fasten them as normal
to my duplex outlet and reinstall into the wall.
-------

Claims to know a lot - yeah, right..

220 ?? what makes him think that ?

Because he sees two hot wires and a white so he assumes "Hey, those are
the colors of the wires on a dryer/electric range outlet".

Fact is, it's possible to get 220 out of perfectly wired box/junction box
if:
The box has two circuts going through it from different breakers
- and -
one of the circuts is from one bus bar and the other circut
is from the other bus bar.

The voltage from each black to white will be 110 (or whatever).
The voltage from black to black will be 220.


Fact is, if you put volt meter probes, one in each hot side of two wall
outlets that are fed from a separate lines on opposite busses, you get
220.
Red Green Tip: Just twist come coat hangers together if your
leads are not long enough


And what is a "normal" wiring for red/white/black,
and a duplex outlet than only has 2 screws (silver/gold) and a ground ?

On 4/3/2013 7:21 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 4/3/2013 1:53 PM, RBM wrote:
On 4/3/2013 1:15 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 4/2/2013 3:42 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The reason they want you to turn off the power is so you can take
the wire nuts off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to
contact.

Isn't that a catch-22? Until you have the wire nuts off, you have no
way of telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when the
power is off.

Worse, with that many wires, you may have more than one circuit,
from more than one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and
black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still
could be.
Didn't get in on the start of this thread, but if the red and black
are on outlets, they are likely splits - and they WILL be on different
circuits - but by law they need to be on tied breakers od fuse pulls
that cannot have one fuse removed at a time.. Thing is, you don't know
who wired it, when, and how - so you don't bet your life on it.

In the US, the NEC did not require common disconnect for a multiwire
branch circuit. (An Edison circuit is a multiwire, but a multiwire can
be 3-phase.) Then the NEC required a common disconnect for multiwire
that supplied a split wired receptacle - one circuit to each
receptacle. Now the NEC requires a common disconnect for any multiwire
branch circuit.

I have not seen many split wired receptacles with 2 circuits, but they
are around, most likely in kitchens. Elsewhere likely half the
receptacle is switched.

If the wire is actually #12 it could be to supply a 220V receptacle. I
suspect it is #14.



I've only ever seen split receptacles with two circuits in a few
commercial locations. Typically 120 volt on top and 240 volt on bottom,
and in a few commercial kitchens with typical Edison wiring, but before
GFCI protection was required. With GFCI regulations, it would be a
little expensive for a residential application.

The one I remember was blowing fuses, maybe one of 2 fuses, in a
kitchen. There were split wired receptacles and one of the
break-off-tabs was not removed (coulda been original or replacement).
I think someone noticed a fuse was blown. All the receptacles would
work with the blown fuse.

That's funny, no one would have known what the blown fuse was going to,
because everything worked.
I typically get the service call where the homeowner changed all the
outlets in the bedroom or living room, and now the switch doesn't work
anymore.

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:18:22 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:53:27 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 4/3/2013 1:15 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 4/2/2013 3:42 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The reason they want you to turn off the power is so you can take
the wire nuts off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

Isn't that a catch-22? Until you have the wire nuts off, you have
no way of telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when
the power is off.

Worse, with that many wires, you may have more than one circuit,
from more than one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and
black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still
could be.
Didn't get in on the start of this thread, but if the red and black
are on outlets, they are likely splits - and they WILL be on different
circuits - but by law they need to be on tied breakers od fuse pulls
that cannot have one fuse removed at a time.. Thing is, you don't know
who wired it, when, and how - so you don't bet your life on it.

In the US, the NEC did not require common disconnect for a multiwire
branch circuit. (An Edison circuit is a multiwire, but a multiwire can
be 3-phase.) Then the NEC required a common disconnect for multiwire
that supplied a split wired receptacle - one circuit to each
receptacle. Now the NEC requires a common disconnect for any multiwire
branch circuit.

I have not seen many split wired receptacles with 2 circuits, but they
are around, most likely in kitchens. Elsewhere likely half the
receptacle is switched.

If the wire is actually #12 it could be to supply a 220V receptacle. I
suspect it is #14.



I've only ever seen split receptacles with two circuits in a few
commercial locations. Typically 120 volt on top and 240 volt on bottom,
and in a few commercial kitchens with typical Edison wiring, but before
GFCI protection was required. With GFCI regulations, it would be a
little expensive for a residential application.

I think Canada has the right idea. The US could require adjacent
outlets to be on a different circuit. Two circuits for the kitchen
but alternate them. It would be nice to be able to tell by looking at
the outlets which circuit they were on. I would use different colors,
but no one has ever accused me of being an interior decorator.

My father wired our house that way when it was built in '59 (one
color, though). I doing the same to my basement so I can plug in a
power tool and a shop vac on separate circuits and work anywhere.
There was only one outlet in eight rooms (2000ft^2).

Nate Nagel wrote in
:

On 04/02/2013 07:33 PM, wrote:
OP here again....

Things are starting to make sense a little.

The box in question is the standard duplex outlet box -- about one
foot off the ground and about 2"x4" made from that hard thick brown
plastic that seems to be the standard for all the boxes in this house
and looks to be nailed to a stud.

It is a couple of feet off from a corner, it has a mate, along the
same wall, also a couple of feet off from the corner.

It's a den, and the location of the box seems to be the prime spot
someone would want an outlet to be if they wanted to plug in a lamp.
As I said, it's mate down the wall is controlled by a wall switch
that is directly across the room. No ceiling fixtures.


OK then here is what I would do. go ahead and get yourself a cheap
meter like we all suggested if you don't have one already, test the
voltages. I then expect to see the following:

Black to ground - 120V or thereabouts all the time.
Red to ground - 120V or thereabouts only when the light switch is on.
(red and black may be reversed, if that is the case just make a note
of it.) White to ground - 0V all the time.

If that is the case then your assumption is correct and you can
install a receptacle assuming that the box is deep enough. Everything
below is ASSuming that you've found what you expect to find and that
the box is large enough to handle the device (3-1/2" deep or
thereabouts.)

I personally would get a receptacle with provisions for "back wiring"
(NOT back stab - don't ever use those!) so you can get rid of the wire
nuts. This will likely be a "spec grade" receptacle which is not a
bad thing - they cost a little more but are higher quality.
Personally I don't use anything else on work that I am doing myself.
contractors will use less expensive materials because they're legal
and they're trying to keep costs down. But I digress...

when you have your shiny new recep in your hand, you will see two
brass screws on the right side as you are looking at the face of it
with ground down, and two nickel plated screws on the left side.
Somewhere will be a green ground screw as well, which you will need to
use since you have plastic boxes.

What you're going to want to do now is decide if you want to split the
recep or not. What I mean by that is whether you want one of the
receps of the duplex to be switched for a lamp or if you want them
both to be hot all the time.

If you want to split it - turn off the breaker controlling the
circuit, then separate all the wire splices save for the ground. You
will probably find it easier to just cut the wires off and restrip
because you want nice straight wire ends. Take the recep in your
hand, look at the "hot" (brass screw) side and you should see a little
tab connecting the two plates behind the screws. Break that off, but
leave the one on the neutral (nickel screw) side alone. There should
be two holes behind each screw where you can shove wires in and then
tighten down the clamps with the screw; put the wires that are
switched by the light switch (I'm assuming red) under the upper brass
screw and the wires that are always hot (I'm assuming black) under the
lower brass screw. Put both white wires under one of the nickel
plated screws, doesn't matter which one. Tighten all the screws down.
Now take a short scrap of bare copper wire and add it to the splice of
the two ground wires - you may need a larger wire nut, I think yellow
will work for #14 but you might need a red one for #12 - and loop the
other end and connect it to the green ground screw on the recep. Now
you're ready to put it back in, attach the cover plate, then check
your work.

If you don't want to split it, follow the directions above except do
not break the tab, and don't connect the switched wires to the recep
at all, just leave them spliced together as they are.

Let us know what you find!

nate


Let us know what you find!

Possible reply might be Jesus :-(

The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 4/2/2013 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in
:

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY
place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way
switch circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220
circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT
nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has
had the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an
Edison circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit
on the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and
the tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.


I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring or even isolated ground receptacles for electronic gear power.
o_O

TDD

I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring


So did I until I looked at a few diagrams one day and realized "You dumb
f*. You assume because there's more wires and devices that it's more
complicated"

- Always two three way switches.
- Any 4way switches are between the 3 ways.
- Common on one 3way is hot source
- Common on other 3 way goes to hot on device (light, whatever)
- Any 4 way switch wires are ALL travelers.

Piece 'o cake.


Wait, what's that I smell burning? Plastic?

On 4/3/2013 1:53 PM, RBM wrote:
On 4/3/2013 1:15 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 4/2/2013 3:42 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The reason they want you to turn off the power is so you can take
the wire nuts off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

Isn't that a catch-22? Until you have the wire nuts off, you have no
way of telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when the
power is off.

Worse, with that many wires, you may have more than one circuit,
from more than one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and
black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still
could be.
Didn't get in on the start of this thread, but if the red and black
are on outlets, they are likely splits - and they WILL be on different
circuits - but by law they need to be on tied breakers od fuse pulls
that cannot have one fuse removed at a time.. Thing is, you don't know
who wired it, when, and how - so you don't bet your life on it.

In the US, the NEC did not require common disconnect for a multiwire
branch circuit. (An Edison circuit is a multiwire, but a multiwire can
be 3-phase.) Then the NEC required a common disconnect for multiwire
that supplied a split wired receptacle - one circuit to each
receptacle. Now the NEC requires a common disconnect for any multiwire
branch circuit.

I have not seen many split wired receptacles with 2 circuits, but they
are around, most likely in kitchens. Elsewhere likely half the
receptacle is switched.

If the wire is actually #12 it could be to supply a 220V receptacle. I
suspect it is #14.



I've only ever seen split receptacles with two circuits in a few
commercial locations. Typically 120 volt on top and 240 volt on bottom,
and in a few commercial kitchens with typical Edison wiring, but before
GFCI protection was required. With GFCI regulations, it would be a
little expensive for a residential application.

The one I remember was blowing fuses, maybe one of 2 fuses, in a
kitchen. There were split wired receptacles and one of the
break-off-tabs was not removed (coulda been original or replacement). I
think someone noticed a fuse was blown. All the receptacles would work
with the blown fuse.

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:03:35 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220 circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT nonsense.

"Split receptacle" in NO WAY implies an Edison circuit. It's common to have one half of a
duplex receptacle controlled by a wall switch, and the other half unswitched -- with both
halves being on the same 120V circuit.
That's not referred to as a "split circuit" or a "split receptacle"
around here. It's a half switched receptacle.

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:05:21 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch
circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220 circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has had
the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an Edison
circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit on
the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and the
tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.

It's been pointed out to you before -- more than once -- that you make the mistake of
assuming that what is Code in Canada is Code everywhere. Yet you continue to repeat that
same mistake, over and over and over.
It's NOT a mistake. I ALWAYS state it is code "in Canada". If code in
the USA is inferior it's not my fault. So go suck on another pickle,
sourpuss.

On 4/3/2013 5:05 PM, Red Green wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 4/2/2013 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in
:

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY
place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way
switch circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220
circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT
nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has
had the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an
Edison circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit
on the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and
the tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.


I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring or even isolated ground receptacles for electronic gear power.
o_O

TDD

I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring


So did I until I looked at a few diagrams one day and realized "You dumb
f*. You assume because there's more wires and devices that it's more
complicated"

- Always two three way switches.
- Any 4way switches are between the 3 ways.
- Common on one 3way is hot source
- Common on other 3 way goes to hot on device (light, whatever)
- Any 4 way switch wires are ALL travelers.

Piece 'o cake.


Wait, what's that I smell burning? Plastic?


I was on a job for The Army Core of Engineers working as an electrician
and the fellow who was my supervisor didn't understand 3 and 4 way
switch wiring. o_O

TDD

On 4/3/2013 7:58 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 4/3/2013 5:05 PM, Red Green wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 4/2/2013 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in
:

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY
place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way
switch circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220
circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT
nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has
had the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an
Edison circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit
on the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and
the tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.


I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring or even isolated ground receptacles for electronic gear power.
o_O

TDD

I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring


So did I until I looked at a few diagrams one day and realized "You dumb
f*. You assume because there's more wires and devices that it's more
complicated"

- Always two three way switches.
- Any 4way switches are between the 3 ways.
- Common on one 3way is hot source
- Common on other 3 way goes to hot on device (light, whatever)
- Any 4 way switch wires are ALL travelers.

Piece 'o cake.


Wait, what's that I smell burning? Plastic?


I was on a job for The Army Core of Engineers working as an electrician
and the fellow who was my supervisor didn't understand 3 and 4 way
switch wiring. o_O

TDD

GEEZ! That should have been Army "Corps" of Engineers. o_O

TDD

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 11:15:42 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 4/2/2013 3:42 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The reason they want you to turn off the power is so you can take the wire nuts off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

Isn't that a catch-22? Until you have the wire nuts off, you have no way of telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when the power is off.

Worse, with that many wires, you may have more than one circuit, from more than one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still could be.
Didn't get in on the start of this thread, but if the red and black
are on outlets, they are likely splits - and they WILL be on different
circuits - but by law they need to be on tied breakers od fuse pulls
that cannot have one fuse removed at a time.. Thing is, you don't know
who wired it, when, and how - so you don't bet your life on it.

In the US, the NEC did not require common disconnect for a multiwire
branch circuit. (An Edison circuit is a multiwire, but a multiwire can
be 3-phase.) Then the NEC required a common disconnect for multiwire
that supplied a split wired receptacle - one circuit to each receptacle.
Now the NEC requires a common disconnect for any multiwire branch circuit.

I have not seen many split wired receptacles with 2 circuits, but they
are around, most likely in kitchens. Elsewhere likely half the
receptacle is switched.

If the wire is actually #12 it could be to supply a 220V receptacle. I
suspect it is #14.


Quite possibly - but code "in Canada" is 20 amp split circuits in the
Kitchen Counter area - and therefore #12 copper as well.

You can also use 20 amp cicuits for everthing in a single bathroom, or
receptacles only in multiple bathrooms - but bathroom circuits can
ONLY supply bathroom loads. If you have bathroom receptacles in
multiple bathrooms on a single 20 amp circuit, the lighting needs to
be on another separate circuit supplying only bathroom lighting - a 15
amp circuit.
Some other situations can also use 20 amp circuits - and long run 15
amp circuits can also use #12 copper.. 15 amp circuits on aluminum
also require #12. - but the OP stated he's got #12 copper.

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 22:48:31 +0000 (UTC), Red Green
wrote:

"ps56k" wrote in news:kjfmfb$knb$1
:

Called father-in-law who claims to know a lot.
He told me it was set up for a 220-circuit
and all I need to do was to unfasten all the wires,
wire nut off one of each color
and then take the remaining three wires
(red, white and black)
and fasten them as normal
to my duplex outlet and reinstall into the wall.
-------

Claims to know a lot - yeah, right..

220 ?? what makes him think that ?

Because he sees two hot wires and a white so he assumes "Hey, those are
the colors of the wires on a dryer/electric range outlet".

Fact is, it's possible to get 220 out of perfectly wired box/junction box
if:
The box has two circuts going through it from different breakers
- and -
one of the circuts is from one bus bar and the other circut
is from the other bus bar.

The voltage from each black to white will be 110 (or whatever).
The voltage from black to black will be 220.


Fact is, if you put volt meter probes, one in each hot side of two wall
outlets that are fed from a separate lines on opposite busses, you get
220.
Red Green Tip: Just twist come coat hangers together if your
leads are not long enough


And what is a "normal" wiring for red/white/black,
and a duplex outlet than only has 2 screws (silver/gold) and a ground ?



Possible, yes, but not legal to have 2 circuits in the same single box
unless they are tied breakers in residential code "in Canada.". Not
sure what American code allows - generally American code allows some
things that would be unthinkable under Canadian code.

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:13:26 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 4/3/2013 7:58 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 4/3/2013 5:05 PM, Red Green wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 4/2/2013 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in
:

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY
place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way
switch circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220
circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT
nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has
had the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an
Edison circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit
on the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and
the tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.


I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring or even isolated ground receptacles for electronic gear power.
o_O

TDD

I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring


So did I until I looked at a few diagrams one day and realized "You dumb
f*. You assume because there's more wires and devices that it's more
complicated"

- Always two three way switches.
- Any 4way switches are between the 3 ways.
- Common on one 3way is hot source
- Common on other 3 way goes to hot on device (light, whatever)
- Any 4 way switch wires are ALL travelers.

Piece 'o cake.


Wait, what's that I smell burning? Plastic?


I was on a job for The Army Core of Engineers working as an electrician
and the fellow who was my supervisor didn't understand 3 and 4 way
switch wiring. o_O

TDD

GEEZ! That should have been Army "Corps" of Engineers. o_O

TDD
With the "deadhead" supervisor mabee more like corpse of engineers???

On 4/3/2013 8:36 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:13:26 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 4/3/2013 7:58 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 4/3/2013 5:05 PM, Red Green wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 4/2/2013 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in
:

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY
place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way
switch circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220
circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT
nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has
had the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an
Edison circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit
on the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and
the tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.


I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring or even isolated ground receptacles for electronic gear power.
o_O

TDD

I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring


So did I until I looked at a few diagrams one day and realized "You dumb
f*. You assume because there's more wires and devices that it's more
complicated"

- Always two three way switches.
- Any 4way switches are between the 3 ways.
- Common on one 3way is hot source
- Common on other 3 way goes to hot on device (light, whatever)
- Any 4 way switch wires are ALL travelers.

Piece 'o cake.


Wait, what's that I smell burning? Plastic?


I was on a job for The Army Core of Engineers working as an electrician
and the fellow who was my supervisor didn't understand 3 and 4 way
switch wiring. o_O

TDD

GEEZ! That should have been Army "Corps" of Engineers. o_O

TDD
With the "deadhead" supervisor mabee more like corpse of engineers???


It was in the SDI "Star Wars" mission control center at the missile
range back in the 1980's. Needless to say, I did a lot of wiring in
that place. o_O

TDD

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:13:26 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 4/3/2013 7:58 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 4/3/2013 5:05 PM, Red Green wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 4/2/2013 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:25:29 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 09:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in
:

Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY
place you
should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way
switch circuit.

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220
circuit.
A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT
nonsense.


Well, when someone says "split receptacle" I'm thinking one that has
had the little tab broken out of it, usually for a lamp, not an
Edison circuit. But that may just be me...

nate
Code in Canada requires "splits" on kitchen countertops One circuit
on the top, one on the bottom - so you can plug in the toaster and
the tea kettle without blowing a fuse.. Say "split" to any Canadian
electrician and they know exactly what you are talking about. By
googling "split receptacle" I'm guessing every Yankee electrician
would also know what you meant.


I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring or even isolated ground receptacles for electronic gear power.
o_O

TDD

I have trouble getting a lot of guys to understand 3 and 4 way switch
wiring


So did I until I looked at a few diagrams one day and realized "You dumb
f*. You assume because there's more wires and devices that it's more
complicated"

- Always two three way switches.
- Any 4way switches are between the 3 ways.
- Common on one 3way is hot source
- Common on other 3 way goes to hot on device (light, whatever)
- Any 4 way switch wires are ALL travelers.

Piece 'o cake.


Wait, what's that I smell burning? Plastic?


I was on a job for The Army Core of Engineers working as an electrician
and the fellow who was my supervisor didn't understand 3 and 4 way
switch wiring. o_O

TDD

GEEZ! That should have been Army "Corps" of Engineers. o_O

Gotcha Barak. ;-)