I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!

TIA


--
"Where there's smoke there's toast!" Anon

On 8 Jan 2013 16:53:25 GMT, KenK wrote:

I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!

TIA


Technically I'd say 32F but my experience says more like 28 to 30F
where I am but the other question is how long it really has to be at
this temperature before you have to worry. In other words, if it's
32F just for an hour, you probably don't have to worry.

I think in Texas, the weatherman says like 4 to 5 hours at that temp
but I'm guessing a bit. I'll let others chime in on this latter
question. But my experience does say 28 to 30F regardless. In
Texas, the old timers will tell you to let the water drip to make the
water move but nowadays, they say don't do that... probably because we
have too many people now .

On 8 Jan 2013 16:53:25 GMT, KenK wrote:

I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!

I second the motion to just leave the tap at a slow trickle on really
cold nights. If you're more paranoid than that, they sell "heat tape"
expressly for this purpose. It is thermostatically controlled so will
only use energy when it's needed. You probably wouldn't need to wrap
it tightly at all (don't, you'll burn it out) in that moderate
climate. Just wrap a loose helix of the heat tape around the pipe,
put an inch or two of fiberglass around that, and wrap it all with
tape.

On 1/8/2013 11:53 AM, KenK wrote:
I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!

TIA



I think it is the repeated freezing and thawing that breaks copper
pipes. Water expands when it freezes and expands the pipe. Done
repeatedly the pipe reaches its limit and breaks.

Might be interesting to know how PEX behaves.

I had a pipe break years ago while Mom and I were out shopping,
Good thing the kids were home and shut off the water as it would have
been a real mess. As your main water line, usually in use, you're
probably OK but leaving a trickle of water on when it's freezing outside
is a good idea.

On 1/8/2013 3:21 PM, Frank wrote:
On 1/8/2013 11:53 AM, KenK wrote:
I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!

TIA



I think it is the repeated freezing and thawing that breaks copper
pipes. Water expands when it freezes and expands the pipe. Done
repeatedly the pipe reaches its limit and breaks.

it only takes once. damhikt.

Might be interesting to know how PEX behaves.

I had a pipe break years ago while Mom and I were out shopping,
Good thing the kids were home and shut off the water as it would have
been a real mess. As your main water line, usually in use, you're
probably OK but leaving a trickle of water on when it's freezing outside
is a good idea.

On Tue, 08 Jan 2013 17:21:57 -0500, Frank
wrote:

On 1/8/2013 11:53 AM, KenK wrote:
I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!

TIA



I think it is the repeated freezing and thawing that breaks copper
pipes. Water expands when it freezes and expands the pipe. Done
repeatedly the pipe reaches its limit and breaks.

It will break the first time it freezes, though it has to get really
cold. One strategy with silcocks is to leave them open (and shut off
the water inside).

Might be interesting to know how PEX behaves.

It's my understanding that it's a lot more forgiving. I have PEX in
the house we just moved out of. One run to a silcock is in an
uninsulated garage wall. No problems with freezing, though the house
is in East Alabama. Again, one advantage of PE is that it's used with
a manifold so one can just shut off the lines that are likely to
freeze (and leave the tap at other end open).

I had a pipe break years ago while Mom and I were out shopping,
Good thing the kids were home and shut off the water as it would have
been a real mess. As your main water line, usually in use, you're
probably OK but leaving a trickle of water on when it's freezing outside
is a good idea.

I left a hose connected one year, in our Vermont house. Frostless
silcocks don't work worth a damn if you leave the hose connected. ;-(
Fortunately, I was home in the morning and heard the water running.

On 8 Jan 2013 16:53:25 GMT, KenK wrote:

I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!

TIA

I live in the desert. Generally a freeze has to be over a period of
days for a broken pipe to occur.

For an insulation look at closed cell foam

http://store.advancedenergyproducts.com/images/products/preview/13021fkw.jpg

....or

a glass insulation similarly installed like above foam that just wraps
around the pipes.

....then a bit of duct tape

On 1/8/2013 5:52 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 08 Jan 2013 17:21:57 -0500, Frank
wrote:

On 1/8/2013 11:53 AM, KenK wrote:
I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!

TIA



I think it is the repeated freezing and thawing that breaks copper
pipes. Water expands when it freezes and expands the pipe. Done
repeatedly the pipe reaches its limit and breaks.

It will break the first time it freezes, though it has to get really
cold. One strategy with silcocks is to leave them open (and shut off
the water inside).

Might be interesting to know how PEX behaves.

It's my understanding that it's a lot more forgiving. I have PEX in
the house we just moved out of. One run to a silcock is in an
uninsulated garage wall. No problems with freezing, though the house
is in East Alabama. Again, one advantage of PE is that it's used with
a manifold so one can just shut off the lines that are likely to
freeze (and leave the tap at other end open).

I had a pipe break years ago while Mom and I were out shopping,
Good thing the kids were home and shut off the water as it would have
been a real mess. As your main water line, usually in use, you're
probably OK but leaving a trickle of water on when it's freezing outside
is a good idea.

I left a hose connected one year, in our Vermont house. Frostless
silcocks don't work worth a damn if you leave the hose connected. ;-(
Fortunately, I was home in the morning and heard the water running.


My pipes had frozen repeatedly as builder had pipes to laundry room go
through unheated space. I had been working on keeping them unfrozen
before they broke.

I would expect PEX to be better as it should contract if expanded
whereas copper would just stretch.

I had a plumber reroute my pipes but sometimes the PVC drain will freeze
but has never broken. Must recover like PEX.

On Tue, 08 Jan 2013 18:51:39 -0500, Frank
wrote:

On 1/8/2013 5:52 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 08 Jan 2013 17:21:57 -0500, Frank
wrote:

On 1/8/2013 11:53 AM, KenK wrote:
I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!

TIA



I think it is the repeated freezing and thawing that breaks copper
pipes. Water expands when it freezes and expands the pipe. Done
repeatedly the pipe reaches its limit and breaks.

It will break the first time it freezes, though it has to get really
cold. One strategy with silcocks is to leave them open (and shut off
the water inside).

Might be interesting to know how PEX behaves.

It's my understanding that it's a lot more forgiving. I have PEX in
the house we just moved out of. One run to a silcock is in an
uninsulated garage wall. No problems with freezing, though the house
is in East Alabama. Again, one advantage of PE is that it's used with
a manifold so one can just shut off the lines that are likely to
freeze (and leave the tap at other end open).

I had a pipe break years ago while Mom and I were out shopping,
Good thing the kids were home and shut off the water as it would have
been a real mess. As your main water line, usually in use, you're
probably OK but leaving a trickle of water on when it's freezing outside
is a good idea.

I left a hose connected one year, in our Vermont house. Frostless
silcocks don't work worth a damn if you leave the hose connected. ;-(
Fortunately, I was home in the morning and heard the water running.


My pipes had frozen repeatedly as builder had pipes to laundry room go
through unheated space. I had been working on keeping them unfrozen
before they broke.

It all depends on how hard the freezes are. Like you, I'd expect the
effects on copper to be cumulative but they can let go the first
freeze if it's hard enough.

I would expect PEX to be better as it should contract if expanded
whereas copper would just stretch.

Within some bounds, sure. If the water is trapped, though, it will
put a lot of stress on even PEX.

I had a plumber reroute my pipes but sometimes the PVC drain will freeze
but has never broken. Must recover like PEX.

I wouldn't think it would be much better than copper, though may not
freeze as easily (copper is a pretty good conductor ;-).

On 1/8/13 10:53 AM, KenK wrote:
I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!

TIA


A rule of thumb might be to look at the plants by your house. Do
they ever freeze? I think tomatoes are particularly susceptible to
freezing.
There should be some residual heat from the ground to keep the temps
below your house above freezing.
The wrap around fiberglass insulation is cheap. It might be worth it
for your peace of mind to wrap the incoming water pipes. I wouldn't
bother with heat tape.

On 8 Jan 2013 16:53:25 GMT, KenK wrote:

I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!

TIA
I lived in Green Valley, AZ used a faucet cover such as: Frost King
2-1/4 in. Sock Faucet Cover, available in Home Depot, Lowes, Ace.
Never a problem over six winters.
For a permanent fix, replace outside faucets with integral freeze
plugs faucet types.

"KenK" wrote in message
...
I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!

TIA

Get some AC line wrap. A foam tube split along one side. About sixty-eight
cents for a forty foot strip. Cheap. Then wrap with some of the foil tape
made for wrapping pipes. Wrap just the parts above ground. It will NEVER
get cold enough to freeze them, so don't think about it again. They DO make
a hood that covers the top and handle if you think that part might freeze.
Better be safe than sorry. I live where it IS cold enough to freeze, I
think 25F tonight, and I have mine wrapped. No worries, they won't freeze
with that on there. Or at least have not in many years now.

Steve

On Jan 8, 10:53*am, KenK wrote:
I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!

TIA

--
"Where there's smoke there's toast!" Anon

Why not just enclose the area under your mobile home? It would work
and it would look much nicer also.

"KenK" wrote in message
...
I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!


Quick fix (we have very old property along the gulf coast) is one of those
temperature operated recirculation pumps used for houses that have a long
run from the hot water heater to the delivery point.

We set up one to work at the minimum setting + a simple a timer. All in
all I think we have $50 bucks invested (that was 10 years back).

This may work without the hot water heater being on but I don't see the
justification given the circumstances you outline.

One thing not mentioned are drain lines. There may be a low spot that can
freeze as well

KenK wrote:
I live in far SW AZ where it rarely goes below 35 F or so. Rarely once or
twice in a winter it gets down to 28 or 30 F. Obviously we don't normally
insulate water lines or otherwise protect them from the cold. They are
exposed to the air under my mobile home. I have a wrapping of insulation
around the pipe at the well water pump and where exposed to the wind
elsewhere away from the mobile where they are easy to get at.

How cold does it have to get to cause the lines to break from freezing?
Anyone know? When should I start worrying? In 30+ years no water a few
times but no damage I am aware of. But still ... I'm a worry-wart!

TIA



I don't know what your lines are made of. Lines on top of the ground are
going to be more influenced by ground temperature than air. But you
probably have wind. I don't think black holding tanks are insulated, but
would little in them if attached to drain.

Greg