Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. In line
shut off valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside
spigot. The valve is not leaking indoors. Valve has been cycled
several times and the packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.

On Dec 17, 1:36*pm, Jim wrote:
Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. *In line
shut off valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside
spigot. *The valve is not leaking indoors. *Valve has been cycled
several times and the packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.


That would seem to depend on the particular valve,
what type it is, etc. The mention of packing, would
suggest that it's a gate type valve with washer.
Could be as simple as replacing the washer.

"Jim" wrote in message
...
Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. In line shut off
valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside spigot. The valve
is not leaking indoors. Valve has been cycled several times and the
packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.

Best solution is to get yourself a ball valve and do a replacement.
Generally easier that it looks provided you can do a bit of soldiering.
MLD

On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 10:56:05 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 17, 1:36*pm, Jim wrote:
Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. *In line
shut off valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside
spigot. *The valve is not leaking indoors. *Valve has been cycled
several times and the packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.


That would seem to depend on the particular valve,
what type it is, etc. The mention of packing, would
suggest that it's a gate type valve with washer.
Could be as simple as replacing the washer.

.... or change the stem, pack and tighten the bonnet nut.

On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 13:36:05 -0500, Jim wrote:

Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. In line
shut off valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside
spigot. The valve is not leaking indoors. Valve has been cycled
several times and the packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.


Some can, some cannot. Depends on what is wrong too.

Either way, you have to shut the water off to do the repair. It is
probably more sensible to replace the valve and be good for another 50
years rather than repair and have a problem in a week or a couple of
years. You just don't know.

Is it a gate valve, ball valve, globe valve, angle valve, or.....

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim" wrote in message
...
Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. In line
shut off valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside
spigot. The valve is not leaking indoors. Valve has been cycled
several times and the packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.

wrote:
On Dec 17, 1:36 pm, Jim wrote:
Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. In line
shut off valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside
spigot. The valve is not leaking indoors. Valve has been cycled
several times and the packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.


That would seem to depend on the particular valve,
what type it is, etc. The mention of packing, would
suggest that it's a gate type valve with washer.
Could be as simple as replacing the washer.

Or the seat.

On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:38:46 -0500, "MLD" wrote:


"Jim" wrote in message
...
Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. In line shut off
valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside spigot. The valve
is not leaking indoors. Valve has been cycled several times and the
packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.

Best solution is to get yourself a ball valve and do a replacement.
Generally easier that it looks provided you can do a bit of soldiering.
MLD
GENERALLY these use a washer - which can be replaced by taking out
the stem (remove packing nut) which requires turning off the main
water. IF it is a washer, just replace it. If it is not a washer see
what kind of shutoff it is and post back. The seat can be damaged as
well. On some they can be removed with an allen wrench. On some they
can be refaced, on others you can get replacement seats. If not
repairable, do as the other guys have said and put in a ball valve. If
you can't solder (or are not sure you can do a good job) buy a
sharkbite ball valve and just slip it in.

On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 13:36:40 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 10:56:05 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 17, 1:36Â*pm, Jim wrote:
Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. Â*In line
shut off valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside
spigot. Â*The valve is not leaking indoors. Â*Valve has been cycled
several times and the packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.


That would seem to depend on the particular valve,
what type it is, etc. The mention of packing, would
suggest that it's a gate type valve with washer.
Could be as simple as replacing the washer.

... or change the stem, pack and tighten the bonnet nut.
Which would make it leak AT the valve, which the OP said it does noit
- - -

On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 16:50:39 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 13:36:05 -0500, Jim wrote:

Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. In line
shut off valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside
spigot. The valve is not leaking indoors. Valve has been cycled
several times and the packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.


Some can, some cannot. Depends on what is wrong too.

Either way, you have to shut the water off to do the repair. It is
probably more sensible to replace the valve and be good for another 50
years rather than repair and have a problem in a week or a couple of
years. You just don't know.
Replacing with a Chinese or Mexican valve is just as much of a
crapshoot. This one has had 50 years of "experience".

No, if this valve shuts the water off ONLY to the outside spigot, then it SHOULD be a valve with a drain on the downstream side, like this:



The drain is the little knurled knob on the bottom of the valve that you can turn with your fingers, and it's purpose is to allow you to drain the water out of the pipe between the valve and the outside spigot IF the inside valve is leaking. Otherwise, water will flood that pipe, freeze and expand, and possibly cause that pipe to burst.

If the leaking valve only shuts off water to the outdoor spigot, your best bet is to open the drain and allow the leaking water to leak into a pail on the floor, thereby protecting the downstream supply piping.

Replace the valve with a ball valve in the spring, and if it wuz me, I'd get a ball valve with a drain on it too.



Always install valves with drains on them so that the drain is on the bottom. And, of course, the drain should always be on the downstream side of the valve.

On 12/17/2012 05:59 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Is it a gate valve, ball valve, globe valve, angle valve, or.....

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Jim" wrote in message
...
Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. In line
shut off valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside
spigot. The valve is not leaking indoors. Valve has been cycled
several times and the packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.


And how do I determine that?

On 12/17/2012 08:44 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:38:46 -0500, "MLD" wrote:


"Jim" wrote in message
...
Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. In line shut off
valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside spigot. The valve
is not leaking indoors. Valve has been cycled several times and the
packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.

Best solution is to get yourself a ball valve and do a replacement.
Generally easier that it looks provided you can do a bit of soldiering.
MLD
GENERALLY these use a washer - which can be replaced by taking out
the stem (remove packing nut) which requires turning off the main
water. IF it is a washer, just replace it. If it is not a washer see
what kind of shutoff it is and post back. The seat can be damaged as
well. On some they can be removed with an allen wrench. On some they
can be refaced, on others you can get replacement seats. If not
repairable, do as the other guys have said and put in a ball valve. If
you can't solder (or are not sure you can do a good job) buy a
sharkbite ball valve and just slip it in.

Whether it be the sharkbite system. which looks intriguing, or a
standard solder joint, one aspect I haven't found yet is how to
properly cut out and remove the old valve so the new pieces will
slip in properly.

Namely how do you best compensate for the inch where the pieces
will mate without unnecessary tugging on the existing remaining
copper pipe? Or am I being too cautious?

One thing I did verify today is I can easily shut off the
household water supply at the meter. Plus I have a spigot near
the basement steps lower to the ground that will aid in proper
draining of the pipe.

Either compare it to photos of valves, or take a digital pic, and post with
a free hosting site. Send the URL here.
http://www.archtoolbox.com/materials...alvetypes.html
Some pictures. I could not find a web site more useful than this. Sorry.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim" wrote in message
...
On 12/17/2012 05:59 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Is it a gate valve, ball valve, globe valve, angle valve, or.....


And how do I determine that?

I don't trust sharkbites. My prediction is that in a few years, the shark
teeth will corrode off, and the valves will leak, come off, etc.

Sometimes you have to sweat in a short length of tubing, and a slip coupler.
Or, a water copper union.

Other times you can unsweat the old valve, and put the new one right there.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim" wrote in message
...

Whether it be the sharkbite system. which looks intriguing, or a
standard solder joint, one aspect I haven't found yet is how to
properly cut out and remove the old valve so the new pieces will
slip in properly.

Namely how do you best compensate for the inch where the pieces
will mate without unnecessary tugging on the existing remaining
copper pipe? Or am I being too cautious?

One thing I did verify today is I can easily shut off the
household water supply at the meter. Plus I have a spigot near
the basement steps lower to the ground that will aid in proper
draining of the pipe.

On 12/18/2012 05:58 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I don't trust sharkbites. My prediction is that in a few years, the shark
teeth will corrode off, and the valves will leak, come off, etc.

Sometimes you have to sweat in a short length of tubing, and a slip coupler.
Or, a water copper union.

Other times you can unsweat the old valve, and put the new one right there.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Jim" wrote in message
...

Whether it be the sharkbite system. which looks intriguing, or a
standard solder joint, one aspect I haven't found yet is how to
properly cut out and remove the old valve so the new pieces will
slip in properly.

Namely how do you best compensate for the inch where the pieces
will mate without unnecessary tugging on the existing remaining
copper pipe? Or am I being too cautious?

One thing I did verify today is I can easily shut off the
household water supply at the meter. Plus I have a spigot near
the basement steps lower to the ground that will aid in proper
draining of the pipe.


Odds favor I'll be sweating pipe. Now just looking for some hints
to properly cut out and then fit the replacement parts.

On Dec 18, 5:28*pm, Jim wrote:
On 12/17/2012 08:44 PM, wrote:



On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:38:46 -0500, "MLD" wrote:

"Jim" wrote in message
...
Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. *In line shut off
valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside spigot. *The valve
is not leaking indoors. *Valve has been cycled several times and the
packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.

Best solution is to get yourself a ball valve and do a replacement.
Generally easier that it looks provided you can do a bit of soldiering..
MLD
* *GENERALLY these use a washer - which can be replaced by taking out
the stem (remove packing nut) which requires turning off the main
water. *IF it is a washer, just replace it. If it is not a washer see
what kind of shutoff it is and post back. The seat can be damaged as
well. On some they can be removed with an allen wrench. On some they
can be refaced, on others you can get replacement seats. *If not
repairable, do as the other guys have said and put in a ball valve. If
you can't solder (or are not sure you can do a good job) buy a
sharkbite ball valve and just slip it in.

Whether it be the sharkbite system. which *looks intriguing, or a
standard solder joint, one aspect I haven't found yet is how to
properly cut out and remove the old valve so the new pieces will
slip in properly.

Namely how do you best compensate for the inch where the pieces
will mate without unnecessary tugging on the existing remaining
copper pipe? *Or am I being too cautious?

If there is enough play in the existing pipes, sometimes
you can get away with moving them apart the required
distance. If not, you can use a "repair coupling", which
is like a regular copper coupling, except it has no ridge
in the middle. It can be slid completely over one side
of the pipe, then later slid back to the half-way position
after the pipes are aligned. Usually doing it on one
side of the repair is enough. Doing that, if you can just
mover the pipes laterally enough to get it together, you
then slide the coupling back before soldering. Worse
case you can use two repair couplings, one on each
side. Doing that the valve/pipe assembly will go right
in even if the existing pipes can't be moved at all.

On Dec 18, 5:27*pm, Jim wrote:
On 12/17/2012 05:59 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:



Is it a gate valve, ball valve, globe valve, angle valve, or.....

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
* *www.lds.org
.

"Jim" wrote in message
...
Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. *In line
shut off valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside
spigot. *The valve is not leaking indoors. *Valve has been cycled
several times and the packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.

And how do I determine that?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It sounds like you're going to replace the valve. In which
case, it doesn't matter what kind it is. The issue is what
you want to use to replace it. For an outside water
shutoff I'd use a ball valve with drain. Drain for anywhere
freezing is an issue, unless the outside spigot is a
frost proof sillcock. Another choice is to get rid of the
valve and go with a frost proof sillcock, in which case
you don't need to shut it off for winter. The advantage to a
shutoff inside plus the outside valve, even if it's frost
proof, is that you can turn the water off inside so
no one can turn it on outside when the house is
unoccupied, etc. But you could also turn off the water
to the whole house if you're away for an extended period.
that's what I do.

On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 18:46:44 -0500, Jim wrote:

On 12/18/2012 05:58 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I don't trust sharkbites. My prediction is that in a few years, the shark
teeth will corrode off, and the valves will leak, come off, etc.

Sometimes you have to sweat in a short length of tubing, and a slip coupler.
Or, a water copper union.

Other times you can unsweat the old valve, and put the new one right there.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Jim" wrote in message
...

Whether it be the sharkbite system. which looks intriguing, or a
standard solder joint, one aspect I haven't found yet is how to
properly cut out and remove the old valve so the new pieces will
slip in properly.

Namely how do you best compensate for the inch where the pieces
will mate without unnecessary tugging on the existing remaining
copper pipe? Or am I being too cautious?

One thing I did verify today is I can easily shut off the
household water supply at the meter. Plus I have a spigot near
the basement steps lower to the ground that will aid in proper
draining of the pipe.


Odds favor I'll be sweating pipe. Now just looking for some hints
to properly cut out and then fit the replacement parts.
Look at http://www.plumbingsupply.com/copper.html#coupling - you
will see with stop and without stop. You want without stop. These guys
are in Chico California but there is no minimum order quantity.

Grainger carries them too.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/cop...071&sst=subset

It is a NIBCO C601 1/2"

Home Despot even lists it - as a NIBCO 1/2 in. Copper Pressure Slip
Coupling
Model # C601
Store SKU # 746932


Call your local BORG and ask for the part number.

"Jim" wrote in message
...
On 12/17/2012 08:44 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:38:46 -0500, "MLD" wrote:


"Jim" wrote in message
...
Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. In line shut
off
valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside spigot. The
valve
is not leaking indoors. Valve has been cycled several times and the
packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.

Best solution is to get yourself a ball valve and do a replacement.
Generally easier that it looks provided you can do a bit of soldiering.
MLD
GENERALLY these use a washer - which can be replaced by taking out
the stem (remove packing nut) which requires turning off the main
water. IF it is a washer, just replace it. If it is not a washer see
what kind of shutoff it is and post back. The seat can be damaged as
well. On some they can be removed with an allen wrench. On some they
can be refaced, on others you can get replacement seats. If not
repairable, do as the other guys have said and put in a ball valve. If
you can't solder (or are not sure you can do a good job) buy a
sharkbite ball valve and just slip it in.

Whether it be the sharkbite system. which looks intriguing, or a standard
solder joint, one aspect I haven't found yet is how to properly cut out
and remove the old valve so the new pieces will slip in properly.

Namely how do you best compensate for the inch where the pieces will mate
without unnecessary tugging on the existing remaining copper pipe? Or am
I being too cautious?

If the valve is in the pipe that goes straight to the outside spigot, that
may not be a problem. It could be that once you cut the pipe where the
existing valve is, you can slide the remainder of the pipe to the outside
spigot in and out. That section of pipe will be moveable. You'll just have
to cut it to the right length to slide it back into the new in-line valve
that you install.

We can do that.

1. Find someone who can sweat pipes, and ask.....
2. Ask here.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim" wrote in message
...

Odds favor I'll be sweating pipe. Now just looking for some hints
to properly cut out and then fit the replacement parts.

Jim:

A few points:

1. You're right. It can be impossible to tell if a small valve has a washer and seat or a gate unless and until you take it apart. Sometimes it's apparant, but not always.

2. You should be aware that you may not even need to cut your pipe. If your existing valve is soldered into place, most plumbers would simply:
a) drain the line of water and ensure the valve and outdoor spigot are open,
b) heat up the valve with their torch on the upstream side of the valve and slide the piping outward. Wipe the molten solder off the end of the pipe with a dry rag.
c) then heat up the valve on the downstream side and knock it off the pipe (if there isn't a finished floor that would get burned by the hot valve) and wipe the molten solder off the end of that pipe too.

Now, as long as the tinned ends of the pipes will fit into the valves, you can just treat those soldered ends as the new surface of the pipe. Sand it to remove any lead or tin oxide on the solder's surface, and flux that tinned end just like it was your copper pipe. Brush out the sockets on the new valve and flux them too. Assemble everything and solder it together. Ensure both the valve and the outdoor spigot are open when soldering. It's capillary pressure that sucks the solder into the joint, and if your piping is closed and the air expands as it's heated, that can be enough to overcome the capillary pressure and prevent solder from flowing into the joint.

To be clear: You don't need to completely remove the old solder from the pipe. As long as the pipe end will fit inside the valve, you're OK. Just treat the surface of the old solder the same way you would a piece of copper pipe.
Ditto if you wanted to re-use that old valve. You wouldn't have to remove all the old solder out of the sockets; just enough so that the new pipe would fit into the valve.

(If it's a gate or globe valve, it's best to take the stem out of the valve before soldering to protect the rubber washer and packing material from the heat. If by chance you muck up the little fiber gasket that goes between the stem and valve body, you can buy something that will work better at any place in your area that sells O-rings to the pneumatics and hydraulics companies. Ask that place for a "teflon back-up ring" the same size as the fiber gasket. Teflon back-up rings come in all the same sizes as O-rings do and are quite expensive, costing between $1.50 to $5.00 each, depending on size.



They do, however, work perfectly as replacements for fiber gaskets.)

3. If you cut the pipe, you'll have to use a slip coupling and a little bit of extra pipe to replace the length of copper pipe you cut out. Where I live, it's difficult to get slip couplings because most stores only stock "dimpled couplings" like this one:



There's lots of bad advice out there, and something you might hear is to convert a dimpled coupling into a slip coupling by FILING off the dimple on the ID of the dimpled coupling, and this is terrible advice. Often those couplings are dimpled so deeply that you can have a zero or near-zero wall thickness at the dimple if you file it off on the inside. If you can't get a slip coupling, then use a 1/4 inch drive deep socket (or small 3/8" drive socket) as an anvil and pound the dimple out of the coupling with a hammer. That way, you're not reducing the wall thickness of the coupling at the dimple. And, if someone tells you to file out that dimple, tell them to tell people to pound it out with a hammer instead so this bit of bad advice is finally killed.

Hope this helps.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 14:54:19 -0500, Jim wrote:

On 12/17/2012 04:50 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 13:36:05 -0500, Jim wrote:

Can these valves be repaired rather than only replaced. In line
shut off valve in basement does not fully stop water to outside
spigot. The valve is not leaking indoors. Valve has been cycled
several times and the packing nut snugged tight.

FWIW this is a 50+ year old installed valve.


Some can, some cannot. Depends on what is wrong too.

Either way, you have to shut the water off to do the repair. It is
probably more sensible to replace the valve and be good for another 50
years rather than repair and have a problem in a week or a couple of
years. You just don't know.

Well I was all set to do the job. Yesterday morning I made a
close inspection taking measurements to create my parts list. At
that time I looked at surrounding valves to get hints on how I'd
best place the new valve.

It was then I first took notice of severe corrosion on the valves
leading to the second floor bathroom, the primary one for this
house. These valves being very close to the main foundation
support beam.

Decided then and there to call in the experts. In all I had five
valves changed out and a new drain created. Took the pro two
hours overall with majority of the time on those bathroom lines.
A main line valve that didn't fully close and feed lines that
didn't fully drain became complications I'm certain would have
been a challenge for me the rookie.

Money well spent. Watched closely, lessons learned. Still have a
few non-critical valves I can learn on sometime in the future.


That was easy.