The subject says it.

I need to know what to call and where to get the little sheet metal
"lever joiners" which can tie together the levers of the center two or
the outer two of the levers in this kind of Siemens breaker.

I'm seeking them to fit the last breaker on this page:

http://tinyurl.com/bsuetef

Thanks guys,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

On 10/31/2012 6:15 PM, jeff_wisnia wrote:

The subject says it.

I need to know what to call and where to get the little sheet metal
"lever joiners" which can tie together the levers of the center two or
the outer two of the levers in this kind of Siemens breaker.

I'm seeking them to fit the last breaker on this page:

http://tinyurl.com/bsuetef

Thanks guys,

Jeff


Jeff, unless the breakers have an internal common trip mechanism, tying
the levers together may interfere with one of the breakers tripping in
an overload situation. O_o

TDD

On Nov 1, 9:19*am, bud-- wrote:
On 10/31/2012 6:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:





On 10/31/2012 6:15 PM, jeff_wisnia wrote:

The subject says it.

I need to know what to call and where to get the little sheet metal
"lever joiners" which can tie together the levers of the center two or
the outer two of the levers in this kind of Siemens breaker.

I'm seeking them to fit the last breaker on this page:

http://tinyurl.com/bsuetef

Thanks guys,

Jeff

They are, in general, called "handle ties". I have never seen them for
the half-width breakers in the link, other than what comes with the
breaker. The linked breaker comes with a tie for the center 2 breakers
and a tie for the outer 2.

I saw one place on line that has fairly cheap used "recertified"
breakers, from which you could salvage the handle tie (if it comes off).



Jeff, unless the breakers have an internal common trip mechanism, tying
the levers together may interfere with one of the breakers tripping in
an overload situation. O_o

TDD

Should never happen. Breakers have a feature called "trip free". It will
trip no matter what the handle is doing. If you are closing the a
breaker on a fault the breaker has to trip even though you are still
holding the handle in the on position.

On the other hand, if you tie the handles of separate breakers, a trip
on one of them will not reliably trip the other one. Handle ties are for
a common disconnect, not a common trip.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I always thought they were for a common trip, good to know

On 10/31/2012 6:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/31/2012 6:15 PM, jeff_wisnia wrote:

The subject says it.

I need to know what to call and where to get the little sheet metal
"lever joiners" which can tie together the levers of the center two or
the outer two of the levers in this kind of Siemens breaker.

I'm seeking them to fit the last breaker on this page:

http://tinyurl.com/bsuetef

Thanks guys,

Jeff


They are, in general, called "handle ties". I have never seen them for
the half-width breakers in the link, other than what comes with the
breaker. The linked breaker comes with a tie for the center 2 breakers
and a tie for the outer 2.

I saw one place on line that has fairly cheap used "recertified"
breakers, from which you could salvage the handle tie (if it comes off).


Jeff, unless the breakers have an internal common trip mechanism, tying
the levers together may interfere with one of the breakers tripping in
an overload situation. O_o

TDD

Should never happen. Breakers have a feature called "trip free". It will
trip no matter what the handle is doing. If you are closing the a
breaker on a fault the breaker has to trip even though you are still
holding the handle in the on position.

On the other hand, if you tie the handles of separate breakers, a trip
on one of them will not reliably trip the other one. Handle ties are for
a common disconnect, not a common trip.

hr(bob) wrote:
On Nov 1, 9:19 am, bud-- wrote:
On 10/31/2012 6:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:





On 10/31/2012 6:15 PM, jeff_wisnia wrote:

The subject says it.

I need to know what to call and where to get the little sheet metal
"lever joiners" which can tie together the levers of the center two or
the outer two of the levers in this kind of Siemens breaker.

I'm seeking them to fit the last breaker on this page:

http://tinyurl.com/bsuetef

Thanks guys,

Jeff

They are, in general, called "handle ties". I have never seen them for
the half-width breakers in the link, other than what comes with the
breaker. The linked breaker comes with a tie for the center 2 breakers
and a tie for the outer 2.

I saw one place on line that has fairly cheap used "recertified"
breakers, from which you could salvage the handle tie (if it comes off).



Jeff, unless the breakers have an internal common trip mechanism, tying
the levers together may interfere with one of the breakers tripping in
an overload situation. O_o

TDD

Should never happen. Breakers have a feature called "trip free". It will
trip no matter what the handle is doing. If you are closing the a
breaker on a fault the breaker has to trip even though you are still
holding the handle in the on position.

On the other hand, if you tie the handles of separate breakers, a trip
on one of them will not reliably trip the other one. Handle ties are for
a common disconnect, not a common trip.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I always thought they were for a common trip, good to know

Ditto from me, I thought they were for common trip too.

Jeff (The OP)

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

Try WW Grainger

"bud--" wrote in message eb.com...
On 10/31/2012 6:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/31/2012 6:15 PM, jeff_wisnia wrote:

The subject says it.

I need to know what to call and where to get the little sheet metal
"lever joiners" which can tie together the levers of the center two or
the outer two of the levers in this kind of Siemens breaker.

I'm seeking them to fit the last breaker on this page:

http://tinyurl.com/bsuetef

Thanks guys,

Jeff


They are, in general, called "handle ties". I have never seen them for
the half-width breakers in the link, other than what comes with the
breaker. The linked breaker comes with a tie for the center 2 breakers
and a tie for the outer 2.

I saw one place on line that has fairly cheap used "recertified"
breakers, from which you could salvage the handle tie (if it comes off).


Jeff, unless the breakers have an internal common trip mechanism, tying
the levers together may interfere with one of the breakers tripping in
an overload situation. O_o

TDD

Should never happen. Breakers have a feature called "trip free". It will
trip no matter what the handle is doing. If you are closing the a
breaker on a fault the breaker has to trip even though you are still
holding the handle in the on position.

On the other hand, if you tie the handles of separate breakers, a trip
on one of them will not reliably trip the other one. Handle ties are for
a common disconnect, not a common trip.

On 11/1/2012 10:17 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 10/31/2012 6:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/31/2012 6:15 PM, jeff_wisnia wrote:

The subject says it.

I need to know what to call and where to get the little sheet metal
"lever joiners" which can tie together the levers of the center two or
the outer two of the levers in this kind of Siemens breaker.

I'm seeking them to fit the last breaker on this page:

http://tinyurl.com/bsuetef

Thanks guys,

Jeff


They are, in general, called "handle ties". I have never seen them for
the half-width breakers in the link, other than what comes with the
breaker. The linked breaker comes with a tie for the center 2 breakers
and a tie for the outer 2.

I saw one place on line that has fairly cheap used "recertified"
breakers, from which you could salvage the handle tie (if it comes off).


Jeff, unless the breakers have an internal common trip mechanism, tying
the levers together may interfere with one of the breakers tripping in
an overload situation. O_o

TDD

Should never happen. Breakers have a feature called "trip free". It will
trip no matter what the handle is doing. If you are closing the a
breaker on a fault the breaker has to trip even though you are still
holding the handle in the on position.

On the other hand, if you tie the handles of separate breakers, a trip
on one of them will not reliably trip the other one. Handle ties are for
a common disconnect, not a common trip.


Douh! I forgot about the trip free feature which I've seen in action
when I've investigated short circuits. I should have written "interfere
with the indication of a tripped breaker". I could see a possibility of
the 2 pole 30 amp tripping and turning off the 20 amp breakers if the
handles were tied together. O_o

TDD

On 11/1/2012 11:07 AM, jeff_wisnia wrote:
hr(bob) wrote:
On Nov 1, 9:19 am, bud-- wrote:
On 10/31/2012 6:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:





On 10/31/2012 6:15 PM, jeff_wisnia wrote:

The subject says it.

I need to know what to call and where to get the little sheet metal
"lever joiners" which can tie together the levers of the center two or
the outer two of the levers in this kind of Siemens breaker.

I'm seeking them to fit the last breaker on this page:

http://tinyurl.com/bsuetef

Thanks guys,

Jeff

They are, in general, called "handle ties". I have never seen them for
the half-width breakers in the link, other than what comes with the
breaker. The linked breaker comes with a tie for the center 2 breakers
and a tie for the outer 2.

I saw one place on line that has fairly cheap used "recertified"
breakers, from which you could salvage the handle tie (if it comes off).



Jeff, unless the breakers have an internal common trip mechanism, tying
the levers together may interfere with one of the breakers tripping in
an overload situation. O_o

TDD

Should never happen. Breakers have a feature called "trip free". It will
trip no matter what the handle is doing. If you are closing the a
breaker on a fault the breaker has to trip even though you are still
holding the handle in the on position.

On the other hand, if you tie the handles of separate breakers, a trip
on one of them will not reliably trip the other one. Handle ties are for
a common disconnect, not a common trip.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I always thought they were for a common trip, good to know

Ditto from me, I thought they were for common trip too.

Jeff (The OP)


My first job out of college was working for an electrical supply company
and there were samples of sectioned displays of circuit
breakers showing the internal mechanisms. I had a Square D rep
show me that you trip a loose breaker by slapping it into the palm
of of your hand. If you look at the side of some single breakers,
you will see a round slotted shaft end that's flush with the case.
That shaft is connected to the trip mechanism and I assume that the
manufacturer couples the shafts together when the breakers are stacked
at the factory to provide a common trip so if one leg trips the other
legs will trip too. If you come across one, you can stick a screwdriver
in a the slot and a light twist will trip the breaker. ^_^

TDD

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message ...
On 11/1/2012 10:17 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 10/31/2012 6:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/31/2012 6:15 PM, jeff_wisnia wrote:

The subject says it.

I need to know what to call and where to get the little sheet metal
"lever joiners" which can tie together the levers of the center two or
the outer two of the levers in this kind of Siemens breaker.

I'm seeking them to fit the last breaker on this page:

http://tinyurl.com/bsuetef

Thanks guys,

Jeff


They are, in general, called "handle ties". I have never seen them for
the half-width breakers in the link, other than what comes with the
breaker. The linked breaker comes with a tie for the center 2 breakers
and a tie for the outer 2.

I saw one place on line that has fairly cheap used "recertified"
breakers, from which you could salvage the handle tie (if it comes off).


Jeff, unless the breakers have an internal common trip mechanism, tying
the levers together may interfere with one of the breakers tripping in
an overload situation. O_o

TDD

Should never happen. Breakers have a feature called "trip free". It will
trip no matter what the handle is doing. If you are closing the a
breaker on a fault the breaker has to trip even though you are still
holding the handle in the on position.

On the other hand, if you tie the handles of separate breakers, a trip
on one of them will not reliably trip the other one. Handle ties are for
a common disconnect, not a common trip.


Douh! I forgot about the trip free feature which I've seen in action when I've investigated short circuits. I should
have written "interfere with the indication of a tripped breaker". I could see a possibility of the 2 pole 30 amp
tripping and turning off the 20 amp breakers if the handles were tied together. O_o

TDD

Yes TD I have work few years for company that actually use 4 breaker tie
together externally 2 was 15 amp. and 2 were 30 amps. also same breaker
had Tc for remote trip, cheap way handling power source but they did it
and claimed that it was OSHA approved.

Grumpy wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message ...
On 11/1/2012 10:17 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 10/31/2012 6:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/31/2012 6:15 PM, jeff_wisnia wrote:

The subject says it.

I need to know what to call and where to get the little sheet metal
"lever joiners" which can tie together the levers of the center two or
the outer two of the levers in this kind of Siemens breaker.

I'm seeking them to fit the last breaker on this page:

http://tinyurl.com/bsuetef

Thanks guys,

Jeff


They are, in general, called "handle ties". I have never seen them for
the half-width breakers in the link, other than what comes with the
breaker. The linked breaker comes with a tie for the center 2 breakers
and a tie for the outer 2.

I saw one place on line that has fairly cheap used "recertified"
breakers, from which you could salvage the handle tie (if it comes off).


Jeff, unless the breakers have an internal common trip mechanism, tying
the levers together may interfere with one of the breakers tripping in
an overload situation. O_o

TDD

Should never happen. Breakers have a feature called "trip free". It will
trip no matter what the handle is doing. If you are closing the a
breaker on a fault the breaker has to trip even though you are still
holding the handle in the on position.

On the other hand, if you tie the handles of separate breakers, a trip
on one of them will not reliably trip the other one. Handle ties are for
a common disconnect, not a common trip.


Douh! I forgot about the trip free feature which I've seen in action when I've investigated short circuits. I should
have written "interfere with the indication of a tripped breaker". I could see a possibility of the 2 pole 30 amp
tripping and turning off the 20 amp breakers if the handles were tied together. O_o

The tie on the two outer breakers was in the form of a rather large
square loop, big enough not to interfere with the tie between the center
two breakers, which sat "inside" that loop.

TDD

Yes TD I have work few years for company that actually use 4 breaker tie
together externally 2 was 15 amp. and 2 were 30 amps. also same breaker
had Tc for remote trip, cheap way handling power source but they did it
and claimed that it was OSHA approved.


To add more fuel to the fire, this article seems to say that handle ties
became the rule in 2008.

http://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=8741

My feelings are that if one side of a 230 volt feed got shorted to
ground (or neutral) and tripped its breaker it would be much safer to
have the other side's breaker switch off too.

I think I've about "saucered and blowed" this question now.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

On 11/1/2012 7:50 PM, jeff_wisnia wrote:
Grumpy wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...
On 11/1/2012 10:17 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 10/31/2012 6:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/31/2012 6:15 PM, jeff_wisnia wrote:

The subject says it.

I need to know what to call and where to get the little sheet metal
"lever joiners" which can tie together the levers of the center
two or
the outer two of the levers in this kind of Siemens breaker.

I'm seeking them to fit the last breaker on this page:

http://tinyurl.com/bsuetef

Thanks guys,

Jeff


They are, in general, called "handle ties". I have never seen them for
the half-width breakers in the link, other than what comes with the
breaker. The linked breaker comes with a tie for the center 2 breakers
and a tie for the outer 2.

I saw one place on line that has fairly cheap used "recertified"
breakers, from which you could salvage the handle tie (if it comes
off).


Jeff, unless the breakers have an internal common trip mechanism,
tying
the levers together may interfere with one of the breakers tripping in
an overload situation. O_o

TDD

Should never happen. Breakers have a feature called "trip free". It
will
trip no matter what the handle is doing. If you are closing the a
breaker on a fault the breaker has to trip even though you are still
holding the handle in the on position.

On the other hand, if you tie the handles of separate breakers, a trip
on one of them will not reliably trip the other one. Handle ties are
for
a common disconnect, not a common trip.


Douh! I forgot about the trip free feature which I've seen in action
when I've investigated short circuits. I should
have written "interfere with the indication of a tripped breaker". I
could see a possibility of the 2 pole 30 amp
tripping and turning off the 20 amp breakers if the handles were tied
together. O_o

The tie on the two outer breakers was in the form of a rather large
square loop, big enough not to interfere with the tie between the center
two breakers, which sat "inside" that loop.

This clearly shows the inner and outer handle ties.
http://www.superbreakers.net/q23020.html


Yes TD I have work few years for company that actually use 4 breaker tie
together externally 2 was 15 amp. and 2 were 30 amps. also same breaker
had Tc for remote trip, cheap way handling power source but they did it
and claimed that it was OSHA approved.


To add more fuel to the fire, this article seems to say that handle ties
became the rule in 2008.

http://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=8741

My feelings are that if one side of a 230 volt feed got shorted to
ground (or neutral) and tripped its breaker it would be much safer to
have the other side's breaker switch off too.

When you have a multiwire branch circuit (includes Edison circuits), if
you break a neutral connection the load-side neutral can be hot (if you
turn off the circuit you are working on and leave other parts of the
multiwire on). "Hot neutrals" are what a common disconnect is aimed at.
The requirement, as you say, is "common disconnect" not "common trip".

For a 3-phase multiwire, disconnecting 'your' circuit and breaking a
neutral connection can also result in way high voltage on one of the
remaining circuits - like an open service neutral on a 120/240V service.

It was real common practice in a large building to run 120V and 277V
branch circuits as a multiwire (3 phase, 4-wire) out of the panel. They
can split at the first junction box, which can be far from the panel. No
way that would be done now if a common disconnect is required for all 3
circuits. Each branch circuit would need a separate neutral. That
requires 50% more wire and average voltage drop increases.

The disconnect for fluorescents (in the article) is easily done with a
small plug and socket in the fixture wiring compartment. I think many
fixtures come with them.