Pray tell, how would a plug be defective? How can you make a "defective"
plug fall out of a good socket? Good sockets are grabby. I think, in this
case, you're mistaken.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...



If I have a defective plug and I bend the prongs it will stay in a good
receptacle.

If I have a defective receptacle and I bend the prongs on a good plug it
will stay in the defective receptacle.

What have I learned? I've learned that bending the prongs on a plug will
help it stay in a receptacle regardless of whether the plug or the
receptacle is defective.

What haven't I learned? I haven't learned which one was defective.

Unless other plugs fall out of the same receptacle or unless that plug
falls out of other receptacles, no one knows which is at fault. A few
simple steps would determine that. Steps that would be easier to do than
replacing either part as a guess.

We used to call swapping parts without knowing what was really wrong "shot
gun troubleshooting".

Derby Dad is named John? I didn't know that.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...
-
We used to call swapping parts without knowing what was really wrong "shot
gun troubleshooting".


John nailed it. When you have poor plug retention, the first thing you
try is a better receptacle. A new spec grade receptacle will hold any
NEMA 5-15 or 1-15 plug tightly. Done and done.

Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:

We used to call swapping parts without knowing what was really wrong "shot
gun troubleshooting".

Yep, just was talking about that today at work. Had a problem with a
gadget, didn't know how to go about troubleshooting it. One guy
suggested swapping this part, that part, and the other part. So I gave
'em the shotgunning spiel.

Of course, with consumer electronics, and most industrial electronics,
there is no troubleshooting anymore. Bad solder joint on a $500 board,
you just bought a new board.

Well, one could add some solder to that plug so it's nice and tight. I'm
sure that's legal !!! Or wrap aluminum foil. !!!

Been retired for 1 1/2 years, but working I worked on plenty of stuff,
luckily I had no dealings with lead free boards. I fixed boards, I designed
boards. I was building some boards for implants, with transmitters. These
darn little capacitors were about 1.5 mm long. I had to use a microscope,
and if I hit it wrong with a point, it would flip somewhere, and try to
find that !!

Greg

On 10/4/2012 9:28 PM, wrote:
-
We used to call swapping parts without knowing what was really wrong "shot
gun troubleshooting".


John nailed it. When you have poor plug retention, the first thing you
try is a better receptacle. A new spec grade receptacle will hold any
NEMA 5-15 or 1-15 plug tightly. Done and done.


K.I.S.S. ^_^

TDD

"Stormin Mormon" wrote:
Derby Dad is named John? I didn't know that.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

wrote in message
...
-
We used to call swapping parts without knowing what was really wrong "shot
gun troubleshooting".


John nailed it. When you have poor plug retention, the first thing you
try is a better receptacle. A new spec grade receptacle will hold any
NEMA 5-15 or 1-15 plug tightly. Done and done.

Ok, while you are running out to the store to get that spec grade
receptacle, I'll try my plug in the receptacle on the other side of the
room. Before you've made it to your car, I'll know whether the receptacle
or the plug was the cause of the problem.

Did you happen to notice that the problem is happening to a hairdresser in
a salon. Do you think they have a drawer full of spec grade receptacles
lying around? Do you think that they have even one spec grade receptacle
lying around?

"Stormin Mormon" wrote:
Pray tell, how would a plug be defective? How can you make a "defective"
plug fall out of a good socket? Good sockets are grabby. I think, in this
case, you're mistaken.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...



If I have a defective plug and I bend the prongs it will stay in a good
receptacle.

If I have a defective receptacle and I bend the prongs on a good plug it
will stay in the defective receptacle.

What have I learned? I've learned that bending the prongs on a plug will
help it stay in a receptacle regardless of whether the plug or the
receptacle is defective.

What haven't I learned? I haven't learned which one was defective.

Unless other plugs fall out of the same receptacle or unless that plug
falls out of other receptacles, no one knows which is at fault. A few
simple steps would determine that. Steps that would be easier to do than
replacing either part as a guess.

We used to call swapping parts without knowing what was really wrong "shot
gun troubleshooting".

You're kidding, right? You've never seen a worn plug that was loose in a
receptacle? Dimples worn down, the split prong type flattened, etc? Never?

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...

I think, in this case, you're mistaken.

No, the reverse is true. DerbyDad is correct.

Pray tell, how would a plug be defective?

I've been measuring various plugs in the house with digital calipers and
photographing the results, which I've found surprising. There are several
types of "defective" plugs I've come across already. Some have blades that
are thinner than others, others have blades that are shorter than others and
one even has blades that aren't as wide. Any plug that doesn't meet NEMA
specs is likely to cause problems.

Of course, this assumes that an overseas manufacturer might want to
undersize a run of 100,000 plugs to save some money in material costs and we
KNOW they would never do that cough, cough stinky drywall because they
have the highest integrity cough, cough dogfood poisoned with melamine and
they would never abuse our trust cough, cough tainted blood thinners.

Aside from out-of-spec plugs, common sense tells us that different types of
plugs have different insertion and removal forces and resist accidental
unplugging to different degrees. A polarized two prong plug will stay
inserted better than a non-polarized one and a three prong plug will "stick"
better than either two prong design. More surface area means greater
friction.

--
Bobby G.

In article
,
gregz wrote:

Been retired for 1 1/2 years, but working I worked on plenty of stuff,
luckily I had no dealings with lead free boards. I fixed boards, I designed
boards. I was building some boards for implants, with transmitters. These
darn little capacitors were about 1.5 mm long. I had to use a microscope,
and if I hit it wrong with a point, it would flip somewhere, and try to
find that !!

1.5 mm long? That sounds like one of those giant 0603 guys. My lead
assembler can solder those with one eye tied behind his back. No
microscope needed until he gets down to 0201. (But he ain't old like
us.)

Trouble with my gadget is I'm building a $100 board and cramming it in a
$100 enclosure with $100 worth of other misc stuff, but then hooking it
all up to a sealed $3000 off-the-shelf contraption that's about a cubic
inch of magic black box. Now, how long do I stare at my end of the deal
before I chisel out the black box and try to blame the guy who made
that? And I'm just the dumb ass putting it all together, so I barely
know what's going on in there to begin with. Shotgunning sucks, but
sometimes it's the only damn way to fix it.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
"Stormy" wrote

strange comment about violent and epileptic hairdressers snipped

what other likely problem would there be?

The OP said bending the prongs on the cord helped.
That's one clue. Though, one might not be enough
for you.

On 10/4/2012 4:07 AM, Robert Green wrote:


The problem with "replace all outlets immediately" solution, as
DerbyDad
noted, is that no one ran any tests to confirm that the outlet was
defective in any way. We just don't know.


One clue about what?

If I have a defective plug and I bend the prongs it will stay in a good
receptacle.

If I have a defective receptacle and I bend the prongs on a good plug it
will stay in the defective receptacle.

What have I learned? I've learned that bending the prongs on a plug will
help it stay in a receptacle regardless of whether the plug or the
receptacle is defective.

Exactly. It's not dispositive proof of anything except bending a plug's
blades can sometimes help the situation - for a while. I tried that with my
charger's plug and it still fell out of the wall. Comparing it to other
plugs, I found the blades were almost 1/4" shorter than most other plugs.
But it hasn't fallen out since I added the outlet extender with the
childproof slot shutters. That's because those shuttered outlets require
substantially more force to insert a plug - the plug blade has to force the
slot cover aside against the force of a spring. It resists unplugging
because of that added friction.

What haven't I learned? I haven't learned which one was defective.

We've learned that it's easy to steer a thread away from initial problem.
That problem was what can a hairdresser do about her clippers coming
unplugged? The proposed rewire solutions all seem to ignore the fact the
electricians are not likely to take work orders from non-managers or owners.
The question is how does this person solve her problem within the defined
boundaries of the situation? There are plenty of things to try before
resorting to the "nuclear" option.

Unless other plugs fall out of the same receptacle or unless that plug
falls out of other receptacles, no one knows which is at fault. A few
simple steps would determine that. Steps that would be easier to do than
replacing either part as a guess.

If I were a salon owner and someone convinced me I needed all new outlets
and the cord still came out of the socket after new ones were installed, I
think I'd be demanding a refund. Especially if that electrician failed to
inspect the plug first to see if there was something wrong with it before
doing the rewire.

We used to call swapping parts without knowing what was really wrong "shot
gun troubleshooting".

There's the old IBM'er joke about the IBM employees on a car trip. They get
a flat. The sales manager says "the car's broken, we need a new one." The
software engineer says, "let's restart the car and see if the problem fixes
itself." The hardware engineer says "let's swap the front tires with the
back ones and see if that fixes it."

--
Bobby G.

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

We've learned that it's easy to steer a thread away from initial problem.
That problem was what can a hairdresser do about her clippers coming
unplugged? The proposed rewire solutions all seem to ignore the fact the
electricians are not likely to take work orders from non-managers or owners.
The question is how does this person solve her problem within the defined
boundaries of the situation? There are plenty of things to try before
resorting to the "nuclear" option.

New outlets do not equate to "rewiring."

New outlets do not equate to "nuclear option."

Electricians are likely to do what they're hired to do. How would that
be considered "taking orders?"

Outlet extenders with safety shutters, velcro, tape, hooks, rings tied
on to the cord, springs for strain relief, are all back-asswards ways to
ignore the problem, which, I might remind you, includes *sparks* coming
from the outlet.

What the hell happened to our OP, "Bob," anyway? I seem to remember him
asking for a long term solution.

wrote in message

John nailed it. When you have poor plug retention, the first thing you
try is a better receptacle. A new spec grade receptacle will hold any
NEMA 5-15 or 1-15 plug tightly. Done and done.

I'd say the first thing you do if you're a cosmetologist and not an
electrician is to look at the plug to see if it's poorly made. It's not
only outlets that are made on the cheap these days. I've been looking at
plugs tonight and some have thinner or shorter or narrow blades than others.

The solution has to fit the facts: the person reporting the problem is not
the owner or the manager, so yanking that outlet is going to be somewhat
more troublesome than "done and done." You surely wouldn't suggest she grab
a screwdriver and pull the questionable outlet herself in a commercial
establishment she doesn't own or manage?

She first has to convince the owner that some guy named The Daring Dufas
(who bills himself as a Veteran of the International Fart Wars) said the
shop needs all new outlets. That's going to be a hard sell, I think.
Dufe's judgment was made without ever having set foot in the shop and
without asking several pertinent questions as in "does the plug wiggle out
of ALL the outlets?" How much tugging does it take for it to become
unplugged, etc? What kind of outlets are installed now? Are these clippers
the only device that exhibits the problem?

While I agree that using cut rate (especially back stab) outlets is false
economy, we were given some pretty specific details that tend to rule out a
rewire - at least until we know more. If she can make do with a 2 dollar
extension cord or outlet extender with childproof shutters, that's the best
solution. If that doesn't work, a longer cord with a better plug, perhaps a
grounded one for extra resistance to pulling out would be the next step I'd
suggest she takes.

With all that said, if the outlet is truly arcing and not just sparking
because the plug is already partially pulled out, then as DD noted, the
employee has a duty to report the problem. That could be a valid path to a
rewiring job. It should at least get the owner to inspect the outlet more
closely for signs of trouble. As her friend noted, she's not likely to ask
the boss to rewire the outlet so that puts real limits on her potential
solutions.

--
Bobby G.

On 10/4/2012 11:34 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
gregz wrote:

Been retired for 1 1/2 years, but working I worked on plenty of stuff,
luckily I had no dealings with lead free boards. I fixed boards, I designed
boards. I was building some boards for implants, with transmitters. These
darn little capacitors were about 1.5 mm long. I had to use a microscope,
and if I hit it wrong with a point, it would flip somewhere, and try to
find that !!

1.5 mm long? That sounds like one of those giant 0603 guys. My lead
assembler can solder those with one eye tied behind his back. No
microscope needed until he gets down to 0201. (But he ain't old like
us.)

Trouble with my gadget is I'm building a $100 board and cramming it in a
$100 enclosure with $100 worth of other misc stuff, but then hooking it
all up to a sealed $3000 off-the-shelf contraption that's about a cubic
inch of magic black box. Now, how long do I stare at my end of the deal
before I chisel out the black box and try to blame the guy who made
that? And I'm just the dumb ass putting it all together, so I barely
know what's going on in there to begin with. Shotgunning sucks, but
sometimes it's the only damn way to fix it.


Sounds like you're having problem on a quantum level where the atoms in
the substrate are migrating across boundaries and shorting things out or
it could be a classic case of a malfunctioning framistan. ^_^

TDD

On 10/5/2012 12:29 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

We've learned that it's easy to steer a thread away from initial problem.
That problem was what can a hairdresser do about her clippers coming
unplugged? The proposed rewire solutions all seem to ignore the fact the
electricians are not likely to take work orders from non-managers or owners.
The question is how does this person solve her problem within the defined
boundaries of the situation? There are plenty of things to try before
resorting to the "nuclear" option.

New outlets do not equate to "rewiring."

New outlets do not equate to "nuclear option."

Electricians are likely to do what they're hired to do. How would that
be considered "taking orders?"

Outlet extenders with safety shutters, velcro, tape, hooks, rings tied
on to the cord, springs for strain relief, are all back-asswards ways to
ignore the problem, which, I might remind you, includes *sparks* coming
from the outlet.

What the hell happened to our OP, "Bob," anyway? I seem to remember him
asking for a long term solution.


Bob did send a nice picture showing a quad outlet in exactly the wrong
location for a hairdressing work station. Professional hand held blow
dryers and other torture implements have robust cords and plugs on them
and work well if the cords and plugs aren't put in a strain at the wrong
angle. ^_^

TDD

"Moe Gasser"
"The Daring Dufas" Veterans of
International Fart Wars

Just like Superman and Clark Kent, they always seem to be in the same
threads:

http://www.google.com/search?=Moe+Gasser+Dufas

I detect a whiff of a stinky sock puppet obsessed with farting. Are you
that desperate to win, Dufe, that you have to generate fake personalities to
give you "attaboys?" That would be sad.

We used to call swapping parts without knowing what was really wrong
"shot
gun troubleshooting".


Who cares!
Take a new receptacle out of the package and try the plug fit.

That's a great way to determine if the plug is out of specs or the outlet is
worn. But once you know that we're still talking about a female hairdresser
and I can't think of a single one I've known that could swap an outlet. Not
if their lives depended on it.

Problem solved in 5 seconds.

Hardly. You've learned that a brand new outlet can hold that plug for now,
but just like the "spread the prongs trick" you don't know how long it will
stay that way. The whole point to buying GOOD outlets when doing the
initial wiring is that they'll stay tighter, longer. But this isn't an
initial wire and in fact is a fairly unusual situation.

But let's say you're right. How does the outlet fly from the store shelf
and into the workstation in 5 seconds? That's the big problem with rewire
solutions proposed here. A hairdresser is asking this question and she's
not likely to do the work or even have it done without approval.

Alternate scenario: She goes to that same store, picks up a three-way
grounded outlet extender with childproof shutters or even the typical
"hammer the plug in because it's so tight" molded extension cord. She
brings it to the salon and plugs it in. Pretty simple, very low cost and
likely to do the job quite well. I don't think even the vastly experienced
Sir Dufas could swap an outlet out in 5 seconds.

Some people can make a mountain out of a mole hill.

And some people can't understand how to read a simple question and so they
offer help that's not appropriate to the circumstances.

This wasn't a homeowner asking the question, it was (a friend of) the
employee of a commercial business who seems appropriately reluctant to offer
her expertise as a master electrician to her boss. At least not without
proof the outlet is bad and represents a safety hazard.

She is not very likely going to be replacing any outlets in a shop she
doesn't own with skills she likely does not have. Recommending that she
does so is pretty useless compared to some of the excellent, very
inexpensive and easy-to-implement solutions others have put forth.

You do get credit for suggesting she test the clipper plug in a "known good"
outlet. That's the least that needs to be done before suggesting her boss
engage in an expensive rewiring job.

--
Bobby G.

I've never seen a worn out plug. Seen plenty of worn out recepticles.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:
Pray tell, how would a plug be defective? How can you make a "defective"
plug fall out of a good socket? Good sockets are grabby. I think, in this
case, you're mistaken.



You're kidding, right? You've never seen a worn plug that was loose in a
receptacle? Dimples worn down, the split prong type flattened, etc? Never?

He got a long term discussion, for his troubles.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
...

What the hell happened to our OP, "Bob," anyway? I seem to remember him
asking for a long term solution.

Increase the capacitance, until it hertz? That's frequently the answer,
though usually met with resistance. Here's your sine! (Chris waves.....)

Did Bob ever go to the hair dresser place, and replace that socket?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
boards. I was building some boards for implants, with transmitters. These
darn little capacitors were about 1.5 mm long. I had to use a microscope,
and if I hit it wrong with a point, it would flip somewhere, and try to
find that !!


Sounds like you're having problem on a quantum level where the atoms in
the substrate are migrating across boundaries and shorting things out or
it could be a classic case of a malfunctioning framistan. ^_^

TDD

How about just use a light weight extension cord from the wall to the
cutter power cord. Allow the extension cord to lie on the floor thus
removing the "pull" from the wall socket.

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 10/5/2012 12:29 AM, Smitty Two wrote:

What the hell happened to our OP, "Bob," anyway? I seem to remember him
asking for a long term solution.


Bob did send a nice picture showing a quad outlet in exactly the wrong
location for a hairdressing work station. Professional hand held blow
dryers and other torture implements have robust cords and plugs on them
and work well if the cords and plugs aren't put in a strain at the wrong
angle. ^_^

TDD

Yes, I saw that drawing. Whoever did that could have replaced all the
outlets in the joint in the time it took to make that.

On 10/5/2012 6:57 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Moe Gasser"
"The Daring Dufas" Veterans of
International Fart Wars

Just like Superman and Clark Kent, they always seem to be in the same
threads:

http://www.google.com/search?=Moe+Gasser+Dufas

I detect a whiff of a stinky sock puppet obsessed with farting. Are you
that desperate to win, Dufe, that you have to generate fake personalities to
give you "attaboys?" That would be sad.


Sorry Bobby, the only Moe I know is one of The Three Stooges. Now me and
one of my brothers share the same Internet connection via a long
range wireless link and our IP range is the same but he doesn't go by
the handle "Moe" either but keep trying, it's entertaining. The only
thing Moe and me may have common is that he/she/it may also be an old
fart born in the middle of the last century. ^_^

TDD

On 10/5/2012 6:59 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I've never seen a worn out plug. Seen plenty of worn out recepticles.


I've seen worn/broken plugs where the two layer blades may corrode and
one of the metal prongs separates. I often take a knife or small screw
driver and slip it between the metal layers of the prongs and expand
them which will give it a tighter grip inside the outlet. Bending the
prongs to make it tighter in the outlet can often break the prongs on
the inside of the molded plug. ^_^

TDD

On 10/5/2012 7:53 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 10/5/2012 12:29 AM, Smitty Two wrote:

What the hell happened to our OP, "Bob," anyway? I seem to remember him
asking for a long term solution.


Bob did send a nice picture showing a quad outlet in exactly the wrong
location for a hairdressing work station. Professional hand held blow
dryers and other torture implements have robust cords and plugs on them
and work well if the cords and plugs aren't put in a strain at the wrong
angle. ^_^

TDD

Yes, I saw that drawing. Whoever did that could have replaced all the
outlets in the joint in the time it took to make that.


I completely rewired a very large beauty shop back in the 1990's
installing a 400 amp 3 phase main including power for a 10 ton AC
for the place. I didn't skimp on electrical outlets for anything.
All 120 volt receptacles were spec grade just shy of hospital grade
unless it was an outlet that was plug cycled constantly. The work
station outlets were high up and within easy reach so no device cords
were ever in any strain. The place has never had any electrical problems
due to inadequate wiring or materials. I build them to stay
working. ^_^

TDD

On Oct 5, 10:13*am, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-
finger.net wrote:
On 10/5/2012 7:53 AM, Smitty Two wrote:





In article ,
* The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 10/5/2012 12:29 AM, Smitty Two wrote:

What the hell happened to our OP, "Bob," anyway? I seem to remember him
asking for a long term solution.

Bob did send a nice picture showing a quad outlet in exactly the wrong
location for a hairdressing work station. Professional hand held blow
dryers and other torture implements have robust cords and plugs on them
and work well if the cords and plugs aren't put in a strain at the wrong
angle. ^_^

TDD

Yes, I saw that drawing. Whoever did that could have replaced all the
outlets in the joint in the time it took to make that.

I completely rewired a very large beauty shop back in the 1990's
installing a 400 amp 3 phase main including power for a 10 ton AC
for the place. I didn't skimp on electrical outlets for anything.
All 120 volt receptacles were spec grade just shy of hospital grade
unless it was an outlet that was plug cycled constantly. The work
station outlets were high up and within easy reach so no device cords
were ever in any strain. The place has never had any electrical problems
due to inadequate wiring or materials. I build them to stay
working. ^_^

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"All 120 volt receptacles were spec grade just shy of hospital
grade unless it was an outlet that was plug cycled constantly."

How did you determine which receptacles were going to be "plug cycled
constantly"? I hope you didn't trust the customer. ;-)

What did you use in those locations?

On 10/5/2012 9:23 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 5, 10:13 am, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-
finger.net wrote:
On 10/5/2012 7:53 AM, Smitty Two wrote:





In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 10/5/2012 12:29 AM, Smitty Two wrote:

What the hell happened to our OP, "Bob," anyway? I seem to remember him
asking for a long term solution.

Bob did send a nice picture showing a quad outlet in exactly the wrong
location for a hairdressing work station. Professional hand held blow
dryers and other torture implements have robust cords and plugs on them
and work well if the cords and plugs aren't put in a strain at the wrong
angle. ^_^

TDD

Yes, I saw that drawing. Whoever did that could have replaced all the
outlets in the joint in the time it took to make that.

I completely rewired a very large beauty shop back in the 1990's
installing a 400 amp 3 phase main including power for a 10 ton AC
for the place. I didn't skimp on electrical outlets for anything.
All 120 volt receptacles were spec grade just shy of hospital grade
unless it was an outlet that was plug cycled constantly. The work
station outlets were high up and within easy reach so no device cords
were ever in any strain. The place has never had any electrical problems
due to inadequate wiring or materials. I build them to stay
working. ^_^

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"All 120 volt receptacles were spec grade just shy of hospital
grade unless it was an outlet that was plug cycled constantly."

How did you determine which receptacles were going to be "plug cycled
constantly"? I hope you didn't trust the customer. ;-)

What did you use in those locations?


Communication with the owner to determine the use the electrical outlets
would be subjected to. 20 amp hospital grade were installed
wherever the hairdressers would be plugging and unplugging constantly.
In the business, it's known as planing and design. The shop had more
than a dozen stationary hair dryers with chairs, those got good 20 amp
outlets as did workstation outlets for things that would stay plugged
in. The heavy duty hospital grade were the high ones that were in
constant use by the operators. My favorite was the guy who wore dresses
and looked like Little Richard. He, er it, whatever, called everyone
"honey" and all the ladies loved him. ^_^

TDD

On 10/5/2012 7:57 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Moe Gasser"
"The Daring Dufas" Veterans of
International Fart Wars

Just like Superman and Clark Kent, they always seem to be in the same
threads:

http://www.google.com/search?=Moe+Gasser+Dufas

I detect a whiff of a stinky sock puppet obsessed with farting. Are you
that desperate to win, Dufe, that you have to generate fake personalities to
give you "attaboys?" That would be sad.


And every time some tourist had his wallet stolen, Carl Malden showed up
hawking American Express travelers checks.

Does that mean Carl Malden was a pickpocket?

"Stormin Mormon" wrote:
I've never seen a worn out plug. Seen plenty of worn out recepticles.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:
Pray tell, how would a plug be defective? How can you make a "defective"
plug fall out of a good socket? Good sockets are grabby. I think, in this
case, you're mistaken.



You're kidding, right? You've never seen a worn plug that was loose in a
receptacle? Dimples worn down, the split prong type flattened, etc? Never?

Well, that settles it then. If you've never seen a worn out plug, it must
be the receptacle.

We can close this thread now.

Second. Will the Sargeant at arms pose the question?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...

We can close this thread now.

On 10/5/2012 2:33 PM, Moe Gasser wrote:
On 10/5/2012 7:57 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Moe Gasser"
"The Daring Dufas" Veterans of
International Fart Wars

Just like Superman and Clark Kent, they always seem to be in the same
threads:

http://www.google.com/search?=Moe+Gasser+Dufas

I detect a whiff of a stinky sock puppet obsessed with farting. Are you
that desperate to win, Dufe, that you have to generate fake
personalities to
give you "attaboys?" That would be sad.


And every time some tourist had his wallet stolen, Carl Malden showed up
hawking American Express travelers checks.

Does that mean Carl Malden was a pickpocket?

Hey Moe (Curly voice), Bobby Green thinks me and you are the same people
because we both fart. ^_^

TDD

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 10/5/2012 9:23 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

stuff snipped

How did you determine which receptacles were going to be "plug cycled
constantly"? I hope you didn't trust the customer. ;-)

What did you use in those locations?


Communication with the owner to determine the use the electrical outlets
would be subjected to. 20 amp hospital grade were installed
wherever the hairdressers would be plugging and unplugging constantly.
In the business, it's known as planing and design.

That's so ironic because oddly enough that's EXACTLY what you did NOT do
here. Communicate with the owner. You were answering a question posed by
an employee. Did you take work orders from lower level employees on all
those rewire jobs you've bragged about? Probably not. You probably talked
to the person who would be signing your check - the very person who's NOT in
this loop. Hope your other "planing" demonstrates more attention to detail.

You didn't even ask the OP a single question about what might be in her
power to do or even suggest. You didn't try to find out whether every
outlet was a problem or just one outlet at one workstation. Instead, you
made a *very* expensive recommendation without really considering the
specific facts put forth by the OP or even attempting to do any
troubleshooting whatsoever.

We've all seen workmen like that who say: "Replace EVERYTHING!" If this is
the way you work, I wouldn't hire you. You've proposed an expensive
solution for someone ill-equipped to implement it. If a vastly cheaper
solution works for this employee, and it sounds like it would, then why
rewire the entire salon? I suspect if it were a salon-wide problem, the OP
might have said something like "it happens to all the other stylists, too.
The plugs won't stay in anywhere!" For all we know, she's stepping on the
clipper cord and just putting a loop or two in the cord could fix the
problem by keeping it off the floor.

Dufe, your overkill "rewire it all" proposal qualifies you for a job with
FEMA. They're the undisputed champions of providing expensive solutions
that are often totally unworkable because they failed to do a proper
analysis of the customer's needs.

Apply today! (-" http://www.fema.gov/how-apply

--
Bobby G.

On 10/6/2012 9:43 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 10/5/2012 9:23 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

stuff snipped

How did you determine which receptacles were going to be "plug cycled
constantly"? I hope you didn't trust the customer. ;-)

What did you use in those locations?


Communication with the owner to determine the use the electrical outlets
would be subjected to. 20 amp hospital grade were installed
wherever the hairdressers would be plugging and unplugging constantly.
In the business, it's known as planing and design.

That's so ironic because oddly enough that's EXACTLY what you did NOT do
here. Communicate with the owner. You were answering a question posed by
an employee. Did you take work orders from lower level employees on all
those rewire jobs you've bragged about? Probably not. You probably talked
to the person who would be signing your check - the very person who's NOT in
this loop. Hope your other "planing" demonstrates more attention to detail.

You didn't even ask the OP a single question about what might be in her
power to do or even suggest. You didn't try to find out whether every
outlet was a problem or just one outlet at one workstation. Instead, you
made a *very* expensive recommendation without really considering the
specific facts put forth by the OP or even attempting to do any
troubleshooting whatsoever.

We've all seen workmen like that who say: "Replace EVERYTHING!" If this is
the way you work, I wouldn't hire you. You've proposed an expensive
solution for someone ill-equipped to implement it. If a vastly cheaper
solution works for this employee, and it sounds like it would, then why
rewire the entire salon? I suspect if it were a salon-wide problem, the OP
might have said something like "it happens to all the other stylists, too.
The plugs won't stay in anywhere!" For all we know, she's stepping on the
clipper cord and just putting a loop or two in the cord could fix the
problem by keeping it off the floor.

Dufe, your overkill "rewire it all" proposal qualifies you for a job with
FEMA. They're the undisputed champions of providing expensive solutions
that are often totally unworkable because they failed to do a proper
analysis of the customer's needs.

Apply today! (-" http://www.fema.gov/how-apply

--
Bobby G.



Oh Bobby, I'm so glad you're such an expert. The owner and her husband
were involved in the project every step of the way since she, the owner
is one of the hairdressers. Try to stick to subjects you actually know
something about instead of putting your P.L.L.C.F. slant on everything. ^_^

TDD

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

We can close this thread now.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
Second.
Will the Sargeant at arms pose the question?

Whooosh!

I believe that went right over your head, Stormy. He was being ironic.
I'll explain. You seem to be implying that because *you* have never seen a
bad plug that *no* such plug exists and so the case is closed. I disagree.
Both DD and I have seen such plugs.

You have never seen the Angel Moroni, I would assume. Does that mean he,
like the bad plug you've never seen, doesn't exist?

See the logical inconsistency in your positions?

--
Bobby G.

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 21:34:33 -0700, Smitty Two wrote:

In article
,
gregz wrote:

Been retired for 1 1/2 years, but working I worked on plenty of stuff,
luckily I had no dealings with lead free boards. I fixed boards, I designed
boards. I was building some boards for implants, with transmitters. These
darn little capacitors were about 1.5 mm long. I had to use a microscope,
and if I hit it wrong with a point, it would flip somewhere, and try to
find that !!

1.5 mm long? That sounds like one of those giant 0603 guys. My lead
assembler can solder those with one eye tied behind his back. No
microscope needed until he gets down to 0201. (But he ain't old like
us.)

I do 0603s and 0402s regularly but, thankfully, we don't use 0201s. Yet. Some
are pushing for it but manufacturing has been stiff-arming, so far.

Trouble with my gadget is I'm building a $100 board and cramming it in a
$100 enclosure with $100 worth of other misc stuff, but then hooking it
all up to a sealed $3000 off-the-shelf contraption that's about a cubic
inch of magic black box. Now, how long do I stare at my end of the deal
before I chisel out the black box and try to blame the guy who made
that? And I'm just the dumb ass putting it all together, so I barely
know what's going on in there to begin with. Shotgunning sucks, but
sometimes it's the only damn way to fix it.

It's usually the most effective way. Feedback makes some troubleshooting next
to impossible.

"CRNG" wrote in message
...
How about just use a light weight extension cord from the wall to the
cutter power cord. Allow the extension cord to lie on the floor thus
removing the "pull" from the wall socket.

Bingo! It's certainly the sort of thing I'd recommend to an employee who's
likely not in any position to order a upgrades to the salon's workstations.
Most molded extension cord outlets are incredibly tenacious and hold onto
plugs so tightly that it's often difficult to force the plugs into the
extension cord in the first place. Those extension cords hold plugs as
tightly as the outlet extenders with the childproof slot shutters I
mentioned way back in this thread. Either one would probably do quite
nicely.

A longer cord means that it can be routed out of the way of the stylist and
is far less likely to get "tugged on" than a shorter cord. It also gives
more cord to implement some of the good strain relief suggestions that were
made.

Before remotely considering replacing the outlets, I'd first see if the
problem was really a bad outlet(s) or some other problem. Even if was MY
salon. Tug enough on any line cord and it will loosen unless it's a
twistlock connector. That's because plugs are meant to be inserted and
removed by average human hands.

I'll bet NEMA specs out precisely the insertion and removal forces
recommended in making plug connections.

If it's a bad plug, I'd replace it with a grounded one just because the
ground pin would make it very unlikely to pull out. I might do that even if
the plug's not bad because it's something the stylist's friend Bob seems
quite capable of doing and I doubt it needs the owner's permission. It would
also likely solve the problem. Of course it's not the ideal solution, but
is one that fits the parameters given by the OP.

Electrical upgrades are not usually implemented by employees like stylists.
(-: I think it's revealing that most of those suggestions came from the
apparently self-employed. Walking into the boss's office claiming a 'Fart
War' vet on the Web named Dufas says "the salon needs all its outlets
replaced" isn't going to be warmly received.

--
Bobby G.

On 10/9/2012 11:40 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"CRNG" wrote in message
...
How about just use a light weight extension cord from the wall to the
cutter power cord. Allow the extension cord to lie on the floor thus
removing the "pull" from the wall socket.

Bingo! It's certainly the sort of thing I'd recommend to an employee who's
likely not in any position to order a upgrades to the salon's workstations.
Most molded extension cord outlets are incredibly tenacious and hold onto
plugs so tightly that it's often difficult to force the plugs into the
extension cord in the first place. Those extension cords hold plugs as
tightly as the outlet extenders with the childproof slot shutters I
mentioned way back in this thread. Either one would probably do quite
nicely.

A longer cord means that it can be routed out of the way of the stylist and
is far less likely to get "tugged on" than a shorter cord. It also gives
more cord to implement some of the good strain relief suggestions that were
made.

Before remotely considering replacing the outlets, I'd first see if the
problem was really a bad outlet(s) or some other problem. Even if was MY
salon. Tug enough on any line cord and it will loosen unless it's a
twistlock connector. That's because plugs are meant to be inserted and
removed by average human hands.

I'll bet NEMA specs out precisely the insertion and removal forces
recommended in making plug connections.

If it's a bad plug, I'd replace it with a grounded one just because the
ground pin would make it very unlikely to pull out. I might do that even if
the plug's not bad because it's something the stylist's friend Bob seems
quite capable of doing and I doubt it needs the owner's permission. It would
also likely solve the problem. Of course it's not the ideal solution, but
is one that fits the parameters given by the OP.

Electrical upgrades are not usually implemented by employees like stylists.
(-: I think it's revealing that most of those suggestions came from the
apparently self-employed. Walking into the boss's office claiming a 'Fart
War' vet on the Web named Dufas says "the salon needs all its outlets
replaced" isn't going to be warmly received.

--
Bobby G.



Poor Bobby, FTG Syndrome has ravaged your belittled body. Oh yea, FTG,
Failure To Grok. ^_^

TDD

"Moe Gasser" wrote in message
...
On 10/5/2012 7:57 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Moe Gasser"
"The Daring Dufas" Veterans of
International Fart Wars

Just like Superman and Clark Kent, they always seem to be in the same
threads:

http://www.google.com/search?=Moe+Gasser+Dufas

I detect a whiff of a stinky sock puppet obsessed with farting. Are you
that desperate to win, Dufe, that you have to generate fake
personalities to
give you "attaboys?" That would be sad.


And every time some tourist had his wallet stolen, Carl Malden showed up
hawking American Express travelers checks.

Does that mean Carl Malden was a pickpocket?

Lame defense. Anyone looking at how many times you two back each other in a
thread war can draw their own conclusions. Anyone looking at how you both
refer to farting in your self-description can draw their own conclusions.
Moe seems to come out to play only when Dufe's in over his head and needs a
bailout - like now.

http://www.google.com/search?=Moe+Gasser+Dufas

How disappointing. I thought Dufe/you at least had a modicum of integrity.
Anyone who knows how to read headers would wonder why there are so many
unusual similarities between Moe Gasser of Flatulator's Anonymous and Dufas,
Fart War veteran like their UAS's. Examine these two User Agent Strings
from each poster's headers:

MoeG: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907
Thunderbird/15.0.1

Dufas: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907
Thunderbird/15.0.1

Then go here to examine how many different "user agent strings" there are
and how slim the chance is that the two of you have the same UAS.

http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/Firefox/

There are over 2,509 UA strings on that page, yet Moe Gasser and Dufe share
the exact same configuration, show up in the same thread and think fart
jokes are funny. That's just not very likely.

Hmmmm. Full header details below - anyone who knows sock puppets knows how
unlikely it is that these two posters are really separate people. I thought
conservatives manned up and it was only liberals like Clinton who hid behind
lies. So much for steretypes.

--
Bobby G.

Path: eternal-september.org!mx04.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: The Daring Dufas
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair
Subject: prevent electrical plug from wobbling loose?
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 08:06:04 -0500
Organization: Veterans of International Fart Wars
Lines: 25
Message-ID:
References:



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Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 15:33:38 -0400
From: Moe Gasser
Reply-To: t
Organization: Flatulators Anonymous
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Subject: prevent electrical plug from wobbling loose?
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"Smitty Two" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

We've learned that it's easy to steer a thread away from initial
problem.
That problem was what can a hairdresser do about her clippers coming
unplugged? The proposed rewire solutions all seem to ignore the fact
the
electricians are not likely to take work orders from non-managers or
owners.
The question is how does this person solve her problem within the
defined
boundaries of the situation? There are plenty of things to try before
resorting to the "nuclear" option.

New outlets do not equate to "rewiring."

Semantics. You know full well what I am talking about. The old outlets
have to be disconnected and removed and the new outlets installed,
reconnected and fully tested. Clearer? In any event, it's going to be
expensive based on the per outlet charges I have been quoted for similar
projects in the past. Many times when such work gets underway, hidden
defects are revealed like improper grounds, reversed hot and neutral, too
many wires in a junction box, etc. that require more work than was obvious
at first glance. Compare that effort to plugging in an extension cord or
outlet extender.

Even replacing the one allegedly defective outlet means that it's not likely
to be done by a stylist or even her boyfriend without the owner's
permission. Those were OP's (wise) words, not mine and fairly obvious to
anyone who read the original post closely.

New outlets do not equate to "nuclear option."

Semantics again. The proposed outlet replacement most likely needs to be
done by a licensed commercial electrician and might cost $500 or more,
especially if it has to be done outside of business hours. Now compare that
cost and disruption to buying a $2 extension cord. It's certainly several
magnitudes more expensive and disruptive to replace outlets.

Consider the OP was twice removed from the owner. He was a friend of the
salon's employee. I still contend that even discussing replacement outlets
with her boss is a nuclear option because small business bosses are often
very sensitive about their business acumen. I could easily imagine the
stylist getting fired for suggesting to the salon owner that he makes her
works with defective equipment.

Since there haven't been any tests of the outlet or the cord performed that
I know of, a replacement of the outlets still seems awfully premature. How
does anyone know what grade receptacle is in there now? The simple answer
is they don't. The all-new outlet option certainly is nuclear if it costs
100's of times more than other, quite workable solutions and especially if
it gets the stylist fired.

Electricians are likely to do what they're hired to do. How would that
be considered "taking orders?"

I'm sorry, but now it seems you're being deliberately obtuse. I said:

electricians are not likely to take work orders from non-managers or
owners.

Read that again: The OP is a friend of an employee/stylist of the salon. A
stylist is NOT going to call an electrician and give him a work order to
replace the outlets. That's a manager/owner's job. I hope that makes it
clear.

Maybe you or some of the folks here would accept a work order from someone
without authority to make changes but it's not a very smart thing to do
because there's a high probability you won't get paid for your services.
Nor will a court support the placing of a mechanic's lien if the work was
done without the permission of the owner. The court may very well order the
ripping out of any work done without approval. The workman who did the
unapproved work will end up footing the bill for its removal.

Solutions that involve a stylist/employee getting one or ten or all the
outlets replaced are based on the faulty assumption such a person is even
ABLE to commission such a job. While new outlets might be the right answer
for most other cases, they are probably not the right answer here.

If that poor hairdresser walked into her boss's office with an internet
printout of "Fart War" vet Dufas and "Flatulator" Moe Gasser claiming the
salon needs all hospital grade outlets, she would be met with a laugh at
best.

Outlet extenders with safety shutters, velcro, tape, hooks, rings tied
on to the cord, springs for strain relief, are all back-asswards ways to
ignore the problem, which, I might remind you, includes *sparks* coming
from the outlet.

You know damn well ANY outlet will spark if you remove the plug from the
outlet when there's a motor load still running. It's not proof that the
outlet is defective in any way. Even small switched power supplies cause
sparks if they're unplugged when they're powering a device. That's what was
described. Not a faulty outlet spewing sparks when the plug is fully
inserted.

What the hell happened to our OP, "Bob," anyway? I seem to remember him
asking for a long term solution.

I can't seem to find the OP on Eternal or AOIE but the parameters were
pretty clear. It was a friend of a stylist asking, not someone who would be
able to approve, pay for or otherwise implement the replacement outlet
solution. And that's what makes suggestions to do so inappropriate in this
particular instance.

A two dollar outlet extender with childproof shutters or an extension cord
most likely solves this problem. It can be implemented easily by the
stylist and removed when she leaves. It's not so hideously ugly that no
stylist would consider it, especially when the alternative is to keep having
the clippers come unplugged.

Sparking from a plug that's powering a motor and getting physically tugged
on (and is working its way out of the outlet) is not the same as arcing from
an internal defect in the outlet. The CPSC recommends all devices be turned
off before unplugging for this very reason: to prevent sparking when
removing the plug. This is something that's easy to inspect: does the plug
spark in the outlet when the clippers are turned off via the power switch?
I believe that it won't and that the sparks are an artifact of the plug
getting tugged out of the outlet and making incomplete contact.

--
Bobby G.

On 10/10/2012 8:45 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Moe Gasser" wrote in message
...
On 10/5/2012 7:57 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Moe Gasser"
"The Daring Dufas" Veterans of
International Fart Wars

Just like Superman and Clark Kent, they always seem to be in the same
threads:

http://www.google.com/search?=Moe+Gasser+Dufas

I detect a whiff of a stinky sock puppet obsessed with farting. Are you
that desperate to win, Dufe, that you have to generate fake
personalities to
give you "attaboys?" That would be sad.


And every time some tourist had his wallet stolen, Carl Malden showed up
hawking American Express travelers checks.

Does that mean Carl Malden was a pickpocket?

Lame defense. Anyone looking at how many times you two back each other in a
thread war can draw their own conclusions. Anyone looking at how you both
refer to farting in your self-description can draw their own conclusions.
Moe seems to come out to play only when Dufe's in over his head and needs a
bailout - like now.

http://www.google.com/search?=Moe+Gasser+Dufas

How disappointing. I thought Dufe/you at least had a modicum of integrity.
Anyone who knows how to read headers would wonder why there are so many
unusual similarities between Moe Gasser of Flatulator's Anonymous and Dufas,
Fart War veteran like their UAS's. Examine these two User Agent Strings
from each poster's headers:

MoeG: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907
Thunderbird/15.0.1

Dufas: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907
Thunderbird/15.0.1

Then go here to examine how many different "user agent strings" there are
and how slim the chance is that the two of you have the same UAS.

http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/Firefox/

There are over 2,509 UA strings on that page, yet Moe Gasser and Dufe share
the exact same configuration, show up in the same thread and think fart
jokes are funny. That's just not very likely.

Hmmmm. Full header details below - anyone who knows sock puppets knows how
unlikely it is that these two posters are really separate people. I thought
conservatives manned up and it was only liberals like Clinton who hid behind
lies. So much for steretypes.

--
Bobby G.


One more time Bobbles if you didn't grok what I posted before. Read
carefully,get real close to the screen. I am not nor have I ever posted
here or anywhere else as "Moe or Gasser". I think it funny that you
somehow believe me and Moe are the same person or even related. My
brother and I share an Internet connection via a long range WiFi
connection but my bro doesn't go by the nym "Moe Gasser" either. I don't
know Moe and have never carried on any long conversations with
him/her/it. If you wish to continue to believe I'm Moe or anyone else,
it's OK with me, I find it quite amusing. Oh yea, normal human males of
all ages think flatulence is funny. If you don't think farting is funny,
You're not a real man. ^_^

TDD