gregz wrote in

rg:

"Stormin Mormon" wrote:
I'm not sure about start current. Most of the refrig I've measured,
run about 4 to 5 amps, under load. Defrost can be 3 to 6 amps, been a
while since I measured one.


I measured with killowatt. I thought they drew more, like 6 amps. Even
my old 70's fridge is only about 2.5 amps. My newer 90's will draw
12-13 amps on defrost, or 1500 watts. Killowatt will also measure true
power.

Greg


Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"gregz" wrote in message
-septembe
r.org...

I've got a Kill-a-Watt, but haven't really used it. Time to start
that. It scares me that starting current for a fridge would be more
than twice nominal current. I have to look what kind of circuit
breaker the fridge is on. How long would the peak startup amps be
required, since the circuit breaker doesn't blow.

Likely be 3-6 times normal current. Normal current should be 1.5- 2.5
amps. Defrost mode is what consumes higher steady current, and the
compressor is off.

Greg

THANKS!!

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Smitty Two wrote in
:

In article ,
Han wrote:

It scares me that starting current for a fridge would be more than
twice nominal current. I have to look what kind of circuit breaker
the fridge is on. How long would the peak startup amps be required,
since the circuit breaker doesn't blow.

Inrush current is ferocious, but lasts for much less than a second.
Circuit breakers don't trip anywhere near that fast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current

I am looking at real world scenarios, i.e. would generator "X" supply the
required current to "start" my fridge? Without damage to either,
obviously. So, if there is a 30 Amp current for 1 nanosec, that probably
wouldn't mean anything, would it?

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

In article ,
Han wrote:

Smitty Two wrote in
:

In article ,
Han wrote:

It scares me that starting current for a fridge would be more than
twice nominal current. I have to look what kind of circuit breaker
the fridge is on. How long would the peak startup amps be required,
since the circuit breaker doesn't blow.

Inrush current is ferocious, but lasts for much less than a second.
Circuit breakers don't trip anywhere near that fast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current

I am looking at real world scenarios, i.e. would generator "X" supply the
required current to "start" my fridge? Without damage to either,
obviously. So, if there is a 30 Amp current for 1 nanosec, that probably
wouldn't mean anything, would it?

I understand that you're asking real world questions. You do need to
size a generator for inrush expectations, which last longer than a
nanosecond. Your fridge will not start if you don't.

However, you don't need to start everything you have at the same time,
nor run everything at the same time. You can watch TV in the dark, and
unplug the fridge while you use the microwave:

http://powerequipment.honda.com/gene...wer-management

On Oct 3, 12:26*am, Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 22:27:11 -0400, "Existential Angst"

wrote:

Those are nice styles, Onans, in partic.
Too bad car makers don't make a "generator option", of some sort.
The Chevy Volt would appear to be ready made for this... talk about quiet!

You can set up your IC engine car for at least 2k watts for @ $200-300
with an inverter.


I don't know how you get to "at least 2K watts." Stock alternators
are typically in the range of 100 to 150 amps, which translates
into 1200 to 1800 watts.

On Oct 2, 3:29*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/2/2012 8:10 AM, HeyBub wrote:
Atila Iskander wrote:

At about $600 for the generator, you can buy a bigger one and a
separate conversion kit for less and be able to run either NG, LP or
* * gasoline More flexibility for the same price.

What is the recommended pipe diameter to feed a generator using
natural gas? I suspect 1/4" would be too small, but would 1" be
overkill? I found a NG space heater at an auction ($10) and that's
providing
the incentive to re-plumb a gas line to supply the master bedroom.
While I'm at that task, it would be straightforward to extend the
new gas line around the house corner to the vicinity of the
electrical distribution system where I plug in my generator.

Most residential gas meters have a regulator mounted with them that is
set for 6-8" WC "water column" which is about 1/2 psi. This requires a
3/4" line for most stoves, furnaces and water heaters. When I was
installing a lot of generators in homes and businesses, I would get
the gas company to install a 2psi gas meter so I could get enough gas
pressure and volume to run the generators. The Generac units I was
installing needed 11" WC to operate properly and because of the higher
supply pressure, I could run a 1/2" line to get the volume of fuel
needed. My friend and I when installing gas lines in new construction
or remodels would get a 2psi gas meter so we could run 3/8" copper
lines to all appliances instead of 3/4" but a regulator was needed at
each unit to regulate the pressure down to 6-8" WC for proper
operation. I installed a wall mounted NG heater here at the crotchety
old fart's lair last year and I ran a 1/2" copper line as required,
it works great and puts out a great deal of heat. You may be able to
use a 3/4" line to supply enough fuel for your genset as many of them will
operate
with the the 6-8" WC NG supply. *^_^

Thanks.

I'll try 3/4" for my modest 6000kw generator. If that doesn't work, I'll try
1". *If I still have problems. I'll investigate up-amped regulators (or
forget the whole thing).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


If you don't want to make it a permanent installation, another
option may be to have a gas outlet like you would connect a grill
to and then use a 3/4" hose to connect it to the generator
when needed. You can get those hoses in various diameters
and lengths, custom made. They are typicall sold for use with
RV's, etc.

On 10/2/2012 8:10 AM, HeyBub wrote:
....

What is the recommended pipe diameter to feed a generator using natural gas?
....

There will be a required pressure/volume specification available from
the manufacturer of the generator is the easiest/best way to ascertain
that for the specific case.

Of course, the upstream feed has to be able to supply all coincident
uses downstream is the limiting factor for multiple.

--

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 22:27:11 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:



Those are nice styles, Onans, in partic.
Too bad car makers don't make a "generator option", of some sort.
The Chevy Volt would appear to be ready made for this... talk about quiet!

You can set up your IC engine car for at least 2k watts for @ $200-300
with an inverter.
I looked into that and would use it before I bought a generator.
Haven't followed the entire thread, but if Han is thing about powering
his HVAC with a generator, he should check it out real good.
Some HVAC circuitry is touchy about sine wave.
I'll repeat what I said before,
For a cold weather outage, I have 2 20k BTU of kerosene heaters.
Really got them for the garage for winter work, but they burn pretty
clean. The gas range burners put about 16k BTU total. Pretty sure
the oven won't light without juice.
Still haven't bought one, but ventless gas space heaters run about
$200-300 for 30k BTU or so.
If I don't procrastinate on that I'll put a T, valve and flex hose on
the gas range line and tuck the hose behind. Connect the space heater
if I need it. The range line is 3/4" and will easily handle
everything.
Summertime outage that looks to last like the last one - 72 hours or
so - I'm taking off to a motel out of the outage area to wait it out.
I likes my electricity. A battery radio and candles is too much like
hard times.
To hell with the food. I never have more than a bills worth in the
fridge/freezer anyway.
My plan is a lot cheaper than a generator for something that might
happen once in 10 years. More dependable too.




Good point.
But, you'd need a hefty car alternator, or plenty of backup batts, for a 2kW
inverter.
From
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-lpYA1oY...power_ups.html
---------

For example: producing a 1500 watt output requires about 217 amperes of
current from your car's system. Most stock alternators are in the 80-120
ampere range. A 250 or 300 ampere aftermarket high output alternator should
provide enough power for all your car's systems and your high-powered stereo
too.

-------------

100 A is only 1.2 kW, while 300 amps would be 3600 W, which is not bad,
altho these should proly be de-rated by 20%.

So a "standard" car could only accommodate about a 1 kW inverter, altho the
battery could up that a bit, and quite a bit ito surges. A high-output
alternator could do 3 kW.

Backup batts by themselves are problematic. Amp-hrs are, iiuc, rated over
20 hours, so a typical car battery, at about 50 amp-hrs, yields only 2.5 A,
or is good for only.... 30 W !!!! Proly could bump that up to 50-100 W
for shorter outages, but even at 100 W, for 1.2 kW, you'd need 12 of them.

So a 1,000 W inverter with a battery bank of 5-10 batts is proly not a bad
solution, certainly *quieter* than these effing generators. Altho for
week-long outages, you'd need a lot of gasoline!

Which brings up the whole risk/payoff/probability issue: Just how much does
one prepare/pay for unknown events? Well, lots, iffin yer a survivalist....

For some, a nat.gas powered generator is worth it. For others, proly moi
included, this inverter/batt idear seems like an excellent compromise
solution, esp. with the cost of inverters coming down. For about $500 in
inverters+batteries (+ a trickle charger g), it seems you could have a
nice system -- not super powerful, but super quiet, very reliable, no
mechanical headaches

I wanted something to keep the shop running, but in the whole risk/payoff
scheme of things, it's proly just not worth it, given the improvements in
overall svc reliability around here. As I believe I mentioned, a hefty
tri-fuel unit is nice, but really a pita to set up properly (even for a
diy-er), and very expensive to have done professionally, in most cases proly
way more than the unit itself. And did I mention the noise......

One surprising problem, tho, is having 5-10 car batteries hanging around.
They can be surprisingly corrosive, need ventilation, etc. Not a super
biggie, but a consideration.

--

EA

Vic Smith wrote in
:

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 22:27:11 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:



Those are nice styles, Onans, in partic.
Too bad car makers don't make a "generator option", of some sort.
The Chevy Volt would appear to be ready made for this... talk about
quiet!

You can set up your IC engine car for at least 2k watts for @ $200-300
with an inverter.
I looked into that and would use it before I bought a generator.
Haven't followed the entire thread, but if Han is thing about powering
his HVAC with a generator, he should check it out real good.
Some HVAC circuitry is touchy about sine wave.
I'll repeat what I said before,
For a cold weather outage, I have 2 20k BTU of kerosene heaters.
Really got them for the garage for winter work, but they burn pretty
clean. The gas range burners put about 16k BTU total. Pretty sure
the oven won't light without juice.
Still haven't bought one, but ventless gas space heaters run about
$200-300 for 30k BTU or so.
If I don't procrastinate on that I'll put a T, valve and flex hose on
the gas range line and tuck the hose behind. Connect the space heater
if I need it. The range line is 3/4" and will easily handle
everything.
Summertime outage that looks to last like the last one - 72 hours or
so - I'm taking off to a motel out of the outage area to wait it out.
I likes my electricity. A battery radio and candles is too much like
hard times.
To hell with the food. I never have more than a bills worth in the
fridge/freezer anyway.
My plan is a lot cheaper than a generator for something that might
happen once in 10 years. More dependable too.

This is a really densely populated area in Bergen county, NJ. Even with
Irene and with the "Halloween" snowstorm, PSE&G had us reconnected in
about 48 hours. That means we were close to but not beyond what was
endurable. To make sure that stays that way specifically for our
diminishing endurance as we get older, I need ways to combat the cold and
keep the fridge going. So a minimal electric supply from a generator, or
indeed several space heaters. At the moment I have a propane radiant
heater for real emergencies. I would like to get a smallish generator,
either gasoline or propane, for that furnace and fridge.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Smitty Two wrote in
:

In article ,
Han wrote:

Smitty Two wrote in
:

In article ,
Han wrote:

It scares me that starting current for a fridge would be more than
twice nominal current. I have to look what kind of circuit
breaker the fridge is on. How long would the peak startup amps be
required, since the circuit breaker doesn't blow.

Inrush current is ferocious, but lasts for much less than a second.
Circuit breakers don't trip anywhere near that fast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current

I am looking at real world scenarios, i.e. would generator "X" supply
the required current to "start" my fridge? Without damage to either,
obviously. So, if there is a 30 Amp current for 1 nanosec, that
probably wouldn't mean anything, would it?

I understand that you're asking real world questions. You do need to
size a generator for inrush expectations, which last longer than a
nanosecond. Your fridge will not start if you don't.

However, you don't need to start everything you have at the same time,
nor run everything at the same time. You can watch TV in the dark, and
unplug the fridge while you use the microwave:

http://powerequipment.honda.com/gene...wer-management

Thanks for the confirmation!
That would be using what is nowadays a rare commodity, common sense. But
I'm old enough to consider that SOP!

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 08:03:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Oct 3, 12:26Â*am, Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 22:27:11 -0400, "Existential Angst"

wrote:

Those are nice styles, Onans, in partic.
Too bad car makers don't make a "generator option", of some sort.
The Chevy Volt would appear to be ready made for this... talk about quiet!

You can set up your IC engine car for at least 2k watts for @ $200-300
with an inverter.


I don't know how you get to "at least 2K watts." Stock alternators
are typically in the range of 100 to 150 amps, which translates
into 1200 to 1800 watts.


Right. When I speced it I went with a 200 amp alt, for 2400 watts.
For my '97 Lumina with 3.1 that alt is $250.
Add ~$250 for that alt, or settle for less watts.
Still cheaper, less hassle and more reliable then a generator.
With some other assumptions. The devil is in the details.
That's why I rejected that too.
Like I said, outages are rare enough here that the numbers don't work
for any form of backup power.
Candles, flashlights, and gas space heat does it for me.
Or a trip out of the outage area until power is restored.

On 03 Oct 2012 15:37:48 GMT, Han wrote:



This is a really densely populated area in Bergen county, NJ. Even with
Irene and with the "Halloween" snowstorm, PSE&G had us reconnected in
about 48 hours. That means we were close to but not beyond what was
endurable. To make sure that stays that way specifically for our
diminishing endurance as we get older, I need ways to combat the cold and
keep the fridge going. So a minimal electric supply from a generator, or
indeed several space heaters. At the moment I have a propane radiant
heater for real emergencies. I would like to get a smallish generator,
either gasoline or propane, for that furnace and fridge.

Like I said, your furnace might not run with certain generators, and
you have the size the generator right for the fridge.
Then you have to consider gasoline storage.
A lot to consider - and expense - for something that might not even
happen.
Everybody lives their life their own way, but the strain on the
elderly running a f**king power plant in their home should be
considered too. If they can drive, can afford a room for a few days,
going to an area with power for the duration is probably easier.
Some people have hundreds of dollars of frozen food to lose, but
that's their life style choice too.
I see freezing pipes as the only issue, and just want a heat source.
I mentioned cheap gas space heaters. They are safe if installed
right, and have thermostats.
Set the sucker to 40-50 degrees and get out of town.
Anyway, that's my solution.
The biggest problem is my dogs. Haven't figured that out.

"Existential Angst" wrote in
:

"Han" wrote in message
...
Vic Smith wrote in
:

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 22:27:11 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:



Those are nice styles, Onans, in partic.
Too bad car makers don't make a "generator option", of some sort.
The Chevy Volt would appear to be ready made for this... talk about
quiet!

You can set up your IC engine car for at least 2k watts for @
$200-300 with an inverter.
I looked into that and would use it before I bought a generator.
Haven't followed the entire thread, but if Han is thing about
powering his HVAC with a generator, he should check it out real
good. Some HVAC circuitry is touchy about sine wave.
I'll repeat what I said before,
For a cold weather outage, I have 2 20k BTU of kerosene heaters.
Really got them for the garage for winter work, but they burn pretty
clean. The gas range burners put about 16k BTU total. Pretty sure
the oven won't light without juice.
Still haven't bought one, but ventless gas space heaters run about
$200-300 for 30k BTU or so.
If I don't procrastinate on that I'll put a T, valve and flex hose
on the gas range line and tuck the hose behind. Connect the space
heater if I need it. The range line is 3/4" and will easily handle
everything.
Summertime outage that looks to last like the last one - 72 hours or
so - I'm taking off to a motel out of the outage area to wait it
out. I likes my electricity. A battery radio and candles is too
much like hard times.
To hell with the food. I never have more than a bills worth in the
fridge/freezer anyway.
My plan is a lot cheaper than a generator for something that might
happen once in 10 years. More dependable too.

This is a really densely populated area in Bergen county, NJ. Even
with Irene and with the "Halloween" snowstorm, PSE&G had us
reconnected in about 48 hours. That means we were close to but not
beyond what was endurable. To make sure that stays that way
specifically for our diminishing endurance as we get older, I need
ways to combat the cold and keep the fridge going. So a minimal
electric supply from a generator, or indeed several space heaters.
At the moment I have a propane radiant heater for real emergencies.
I would like to get a smallish generator, either gasoline or propane,
for that furnace and fridge.

I think you should consider Vic's idea, esp. since you have those
low-current HW recirculating pumps.
1500 W inverters (cobra, on google shopping), can be had for $90,
altho your alternator will proly put out only 1,000 W. But if you
have two cars..... I think a full tank of gas should last a day or
two. If you don't run other stuff, it might power a small microwave.
Mebbe better here would be a small (600 W) hotplate.
But it f'sure would be good for your furnace, fridge, lights, TV's,
etc.

I'm going to strongly consider this route. My Honda Fit is good for
close to 1,000 W, and the pickup truck proly 1500 W.
Plus, you'll have an inverter for car trips, if you need 120 V, or
some outside jobs requiring AC power.

Hay I have a 150 Watt inverter. That might be enough for the 0.76 amp
(95Watt) water circulator ...

It is really intended for a computer ... But the idea is worthwhile.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Han" wrote in message
...
"Existential Angst" wrote in
:

"Han" wrote in message
...
Vic Smith wrote in
:

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 22:27:11 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:



Those are nice styles, Onans, in partic.
Too bad car makers don't make a "generator option", of some sort.
The Chevy Volt would appear to be ready made for this... talk about
quiet!

You can set up your IC engine car for at least 2k watts for @
$200-300 with an inverter.
I looked into that and would use it before I bought a generator.
Haven't followed the entire thread, but if Han is thing about
powering his HVAC with a generator, he should check it out real
good. Some HVAC circuitry is touchy about sine wave.
I'll repeat what I said before,
For a cold weather outage, I have 2 20k BTU of kerosene heaters.
Really got them for the garage for winter work, but they burn pretty
clean. The gas range burners put about 16k BTU total. Pretty sure
the oven won't light without juice.
Still haven't bought one, but ventless gas space heaters run about
$200-300 for 30k BTU or so.
If I don't procrastinate on that I'll put a T, valve and flex hose
on the gas range line and tuck the hose behind. Connect the space
heater if I need it. The range line is 3/4" and will easily handle
everything.
Summertime outage that looks to last like the last one - 72 hours or
so - I'm taking off to a motel out of the outage area to wait it
out. I likes my electricity. A battery radio and candles is too
much like hard times.
To hell with the food. I never have more than a bills worth in the
fridge/freezer anyway.
My plan is a lot cheaper than a generator for something that might
happen once in 10 years. More dependable too.

This is a really densely populated area in Bergen county, NJ. Even
with Irene and with the "Halloween" snowstorm, PSE&G had us
reconnected in about 48 hours. That means we were close to but not
beyond what was endurable. To make sure that stays that way
specifically for our diminishing endurance as we get older, I need
ways to combat the cold and keep the fridge going. So a minimal
electric supply from a generator, or indeed several space heaters.
At the moment I have a propane radiant heater for real emergencies.
I would like to get a smallish generator, either gasoline or propane,
for that furnace and fridge.

I think you should consider Vic's idea, esp. since you have those
low-current HW recirculating pumps.
1500 W inverters (cobra, on google shopping), can be had for $90,
altho your alternator will proly put out only 1,000 W. But if you
have two cars..... I think a full tank of gas should last a day or
two. If you don't run other stuff, it might power a small microwave.
Mebbe better here would be a small (600 W) hotplate.
But it f'sure would be good for your furnace, fridge, lights, TV's,
etc.

I'm going to strongly consider this route. My Honda Fit is good for
close to 1,000 W, and the pickup truck proly 1500 W.
Plus, you'll have an inverter for car trips, if you need 120 V, or
some outside jobs requiring AC power.

Hay I have a 150 Watt inverter. That might be enough for the 0.76 amp
(95Watt) water circulator ...

Indeed it will -- plus a 60 W light bulb and a small radio!!


It is really intended for a computer ... But the idea is worthwhile.

It is. And you can hook up multiple inverters to one car, until the
alternator capacity is reached.
However, I believe you *cannot hook up the *outputs* of the inverters in
parallel* -- you'll have to plug into each inverter as a separate electrical
entity.
Which is no biggie, cuz "separate entities" is how most people would do this
anyway, just giving a heads up to wiseguys like Trader and ****ty2.

Just hook up the inverter(s) right to your car battery, have lots of
extension cords.

Another way to do this, which might could save some gas, is to have a second
battery outside the car, powering your stuff.
When that battery gets too low, hook up jumpers to the car battery (which
will then re-power stuff right away), and turn on the car to charge the
batteries/supply add'l power. Then, when the batts are charged, shut off
the car again.

The more batts you have outside the car, the more efficient this strategy
should be.
And then when power is restored, recharge all the batts with a Sears
charger, and then maintain with a trickle charger.
AND you'll always have a spare batt fer yer car....
--
EA



--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Oct 3, 7:31*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Han" wrote in message

...





"Existential Angst" wrote in
:

"Han" wrote in message
...
Vic Smith wrote in
:

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 22:27:11 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Those are nice styles, Onans, in partic.
Too bad car makers don't make a "generator option", of some sort.
The Chevy Volt would appear to be ready made for this... talk about
quiet!

You can set up your IC engine car for at least 2k watts for @
$200-300 with an inverter.
I looked into that and would use it before I bought a generator.
Haven't followed the entire thread, but if Han is thing about
powering his HVAC with a generator, he should check it out real
good. Some HVAC circuitry is touchy about sine wave.
I'll repeat what I said before,
For a cold weather outage, I have 2 20k BTU of kerosene heaters.
Really got them for the garage for winter work, but they burn pretty
clean. *The gas range burners put about 16k BTU total. *Pretty sure
the oven won't light without juice.
Still haven't bought one, but ventless gas space heaters run about
$200-300 for 30k BTU or so.
If I don't procrastinate on that I'll put a T, valve and flex hose
on the gas range line and tuck the hose behind. *Connect the space
heater if I need it. *The range line is 3/4" and will easily handle
everything.
Summertime outage that looks to last like the last one - 72 hours or
so - *I'm taking off to a motel out of the outage area to wait it
out. I likes my electricity. *A battery radio and candles is too
much like hard times.
To hell with the food. *I never have more than a bills worth in the
fridge/freezer anyway.
My plan is a lot cheaper than a generator for something that might
happen once in 10 years. *More dependable too.

This is a really densely populated area in Bergen county, NJ. *Even
with Irene and with the "Halloween" snowstorm, PSE&G had us
reconnected in about 48 hours. *That means we were close to but not
beyond what was endurable. *To make sure that stays that way
specifically for our diminishing endurance as we get older, I need
ways to combat the cold and keep the fridge going. *So a minimal
electric supply from a generator, or indeed several space heaters.
At the moment I have a propane radiant heater for real emergencies.
I would like to get a smallish generator, either gasoline or propane,
for that furnace and fridge.

I think you should consider Vic's idea, esp. since you have those
low-current HW recirculating pumps.
1500 W inverters (cobra, on google shopping), can be had for $90,
altho your alternator will proly put out only 1,000 W. *But if you
have two cars..... I think a full tank of gas should last a day or
two. If you don't run other stuff, it might power a small microwave.
Mebbe better here would be a small (600 W) hotplate.
But it f'sure would be good for your furnace, fridge, lights, TV's,
etc.

I'm going to strongly consider this route. *My Honda Fit is good for
close to 1,000 W, and the pickup truck proly 1500 W.
Plus, you'll have an inverter for car trips, if you need 120 V, or
some outside jobs requiring AC power.

Hay I have a 150 Watt inverter. *That might be enough for the 0.76 amp
(95Watt) water circulator ...

Indeed it will -- plus a 60 W light bulb and a small radio!!



It is really intended for a computer ... *But the idea is worthwhile.

It is. *And you can hook up multiple inverters to one car, until the
alternator capacity is reached.
However, I believe you *cannot hook up the *outputs* of the inverters in
parallel* -- you'll have to plug into each inverter as a separate electrical
entity.
Which is no biggie, cuz "separate entities" is how most people would do this
anyway, just giving a heads up to wiseguys like Trader and ****ty2.

Just hook up the inverter(s) right to your car battery, have lots of
extension cords.

Another way to do this, which might could save some gas, is to have a second
battery outside the car, powering your stuff.
When that battery gets too low, hook up jumpers to the car battery (which
will then re-power stuff right away), and turn on the car to charge the
batteries/supply add'l power. *Then, when the batts are charged, shut off
the car again.

The more batts you have outside the car, the more efficient this strategy
should be.
And then when power is restored, recharge all the batts with a Sears
charger, and then maintain with a trickle charger.
AND you'll always have a spare batt fer yer car.... *
--
EA


Maybe he could build a whole freaking battery and inverter
farm in his garge and connect it to his car. And he could
run the car in the garage, where he knocks himself out
after tripping over all those extension cords running all
over the place. As he crashes to the floor, pulling the
many inverters with him, the wires
running all over the batteries short out, adding to the
drama for the firemen when they arrive.

As for always having a spare battery, do
you think car batteries last forever?

If I were doing this, I'd just buy about a 7KW generator.
I'd install one of the Interlockit kits on the panel together
with an inlet to connect the generator to. With that
and one extension cord, I could power whatever I
please in the house.

wrote in message
...
On Oct 3, 7:31 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Han" wrote in message

...





"Existential Angst" wrote in
:

"Han" wrote in message
...
Vic Smith wrote in
:

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 22:27:11 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Those are nice styles, Onans, in partic.
Too bad car makers don't make a "generator option", of some sort.
The Chevy Volt would appear to be ready made for this... talk about
quiet!

You can set up your IC engine car for at least 2k watts for @
$200-300 with an inverter.
I looked into that and would use it before I bought a generator.
Haven't followed the entire thread, but if Han is thing about
powering his HVAC with a generator, he should check it out real
good. Some HVAC circuitry is touchy about sine wave.
I'll repeat what I said before,
For a cold weather outage, I have 2 20k BTU of kerosene heaters.
Really got them for the garage for winter work, but they burn pretty
clean. The gas range burners put about 16k BTU total. Pretty sure
the oven won't light without juice.
Still haven't bought one, but ventless gas space heaters run about
$200-300 for 30k BTU or so.
If I don't procrastinate on that I'll put a T, valve and flex hose
on the gas range line and tuck the hose behind. Connect the space
heater if I need it. The range line is 3/4" and will easily handle
everything.
Summertime outage that looks to last like the last one - 72 hours or
so - I'm taking off to a motel out of the outage area to wait it
out. I likes my electricity. A battery radio and candles is too
much like hard times.
To hell with the food. I never have more than a bills worth in the
fridge/freezer anyway.
My plan is a lot cheaper than a generator for something that might
happen once in 10 years. More dependable too.

This is a really densely populated area in Bergen county, NJ. Even
with Irene and with the "Halloween" snowstorm, PSE&G had us
reconnected in about 48 hours. That means we were close to but not
beyond what was endurable. To make sure that stays that way
specifically for our diminishing endurance as we get older, I need
ways to combat the cold and keep the fridge going. So a minimal
electric supply from a generator, or indeed several space heaters.
At the moment I have a propane radiant heater for real emergencies.
I would like to get a smallish generator, either gasoline or propane,
for that furnace and fridge.

I think you should consider Vic's idea, esp. since you have those
low-current HW recirculating pumps.
1500 W inverters (cobra, on google shopping), can be had for $90,
altho your alternator will proly put out only 1,000 W. But if you
have two cars..... I think a full tank of gas should last a day or
two. If you don't run other stuff, it might power a small microwave.
Mebbe better here would be a small (600 W) hotplate.
But it f'sure would be good for your furnace, fridge, lights, TV's,
etc.

I'm going to strongly consider this route. My Honda Fit is good for
close to 1,000 W, and the pickup truck proly 1500 W.
Plus, you'll have an inverter for car trips, if you need 120 V, or
some outside jobs requiring AC power.

Hay I have a 150 Watt inverter. That might be enough for the 0.76 amp
(95Watt) water circulator ...

Indeed it will -- plus a 60 W light bulb and a small radio!!



It is really intended for a computer ... But the idea is worthwhile.

It is. And you can hook up multiple inverters to one car, until the
alternator capacity is reached.
However, I believe you *cannot hook up the *outputs* of the inverters in
parallel* -- you'll have to plug into each inverter as a separate
electrical
entity.
Which is no biggie, cuz "separate entities" is how most people would do
this
anyway, just giving a heads up to wiseguys like Trader and ****ty2.

Just hook up the inverter(s) right to your car battery, have lots of
extension cords.

Another way to do this, which might could save some gas, is to have a
second
battery outside the car, powering your stuff.
When that battery gets too low, hook up jumpers to the car battery (which
will then re-power stuff right away), and turn on the car to charge the
batteries/supply add'l power. Then, when the batts are charged, shut off
the car again.

The more batts you have outside the car, the more efficient this strategy
should be.
And then when power is restored, recharge all the batts with a Sears
charger, and then maintain with a trickle charger.
AND you'll always have a spare batt fer yer car....
--
EA


Maybe he could build a whole freaking battery and inverter
farm in his garge and connect it to his car. And he could
run the car in the garage, where he knocks himself out
after tripping over all those extension cords running all
over the place. As he crashes to the floor, pulling the
many inverters with him, the wires
running all over the batteries short out, adding to the
drama for the firemen when they arrive.

As for always having a spare battery, do
you think car batteries last forever?

If I were doing this, I'd just buy about a 7KW generator.
I'd install one of the Interlockit kits on the panel together
with an inlet to connect the generator to. With that
and one extension cord, I could power whatever I
please in the house.
==============================================

First, Trader, yer getting yer panties all in a bunch, squeezing your
clitoris....
Next, you are wildly speculating and exaggerating.... must be that
pressure....
Third, you don't need lots of batteries, or any batteries, I was just
exploring some ideas.
Most people go the extension-cord route.

As far as an interlocking 7kW genset, might I recommend a local Sylvan
learning center, for reading comprehension, of the earlier posts.
http://sylvan.learning-centers.com/s...n-process.aspx

And yeah, a batt on a trickle charger ought to last a VERY long time.
--
EA

On 03 Oct 2012 13:39:17 GMT, Han wrote:

Smitty Two wrote in
:

In article ,
Han wrote:

It scares me that starting current for a fridge would be more than
twice nominal current. I have to look what kind of circuit breaker
the fridge is on. How long would the peak startup amps be required,
since the circuit breaker doesn't blow.

Inrush current is ferocious, but lasts for much less than a second.
Circuit breakers don't trip anywhere near that fast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current

I am looking at real world scenarios, i.e. would generator "X" supply the
required current to "start" my fridge? Without damage to either,
obviously. So, if there is a 30 Amp current for 1 nanosec, that probably
wouldn't mean anything, would it?

The starting surge lasts long enough to spin up the motor, so it's a lot
longer than a nsec, more like a second. Yes, the electronics in the generator
cares.

On 03 Oct 2012 00:54:11 GMT, Han wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 10/2/2012 4:23 PM, Han wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 10/2/2012 1:34 PM, Han wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 10/1/2012 3:55 PM, Han wrote:
"Atila Iskander" wrote in
:


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...
There's been a lot of talk of generators and how to store
gasoline for them which got me to thinking of the conversions
I've done for customers who wished to run them on NG or LP gas.
I would buy the kits from the small engine and parts supplier
and the installation was pretty straight forward. Today I came
across a Generac unit that is LP ready and has a built in
carrier for a 20lb propane tank. It appears to be a slick
little system with none of the problems from stale gasoline
gumming up a genset that sits for too long. ^_^

http://www.generac.com/Portables/LP_...oducts/LP3250/

TDD

At about $600 for the generator, you can buy a bigger one and a
separate conversion kit for less and be able to run either NG,
LP or gasoline
More flexibility for the same price.

I am looking for a generator like that. Do you have any specific
suggestions? Please?


What power output are you looking for? Or, what do you wish to run
at the same time? ^_^

Furnace, microwave, fridge, laptops. I guess the fridge is the
largest thing, a 10 year-old GE, the tag says it draws 6.5Amp.

Thanks!!


Han, depending on the wattage, the microwave may draw more current.
The furnace will have a label showing what the blower motor pulls.
For a 1/2 HP 115 volt blower motor, the current draw could be 6.5 to
8.5 amps. It's best to check it out before getting a generator
that's too small. ^_^

TDD

Furnace is natural gas, hot water circulator drawing 0.76 Amp.
Thermostat etc shouldn't draw much, I think.

Microwave is 900 watt, but it is a convection oven as well GE model
1490

Your help is appreciated!


Most of the Generac units I installed in homes some years ago were
8,000 watt natural gas powered automatic standby generators and it
was enough to power what you are referring to. Of course I installed
as large as 40kw for some customers but my favorite Generac was the
10kw 4cyl liquid cooled engine unit that ran at 1,800rpm which made
it very quiet and long lasting. ^_^

TDD

Well, I've lived here almost 14 years, and things have gotten worse. In
the last 2 years we've had 3 outages of around 48 hours each. We did
fine through those, but it wasn't too cold during those. Our hot water
heater is natural gas only, no electric power required. Stove top the
same. But we are over 65, and I am not looking forward to a bad storm
with real cold weather. Hence the questions.

When we lived in Vermont, the backup heat was a wood stove in the living room.
The permanent solution was to move South, though. ;-)

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

Another way to do this, which might could save some gas, is to have a
second battery outside the car, powering your stuff.
When that battery gets too low, hook up jumpers to the car battery (which
will then re-power stuff right away), and turn on the car to charge the
batteries/supply add'l power. Then, when the batts are charged, shut off
the car again.

The more batts you have outside the car, the more efficient this strategy
should be.
And then when power is restored, recharge all the batts with a Sears
charger, and then maintain with a trickle charger.
AND you'll always have a spare batt fer yer car....
--

I have no idea, but how much gas would a car use to power the small
inverter, vers say a one or two KW generator for a day or two ?

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
news

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

Another way to do this, which might could save some gas, is to have a
second battery outside the car, powering your stuff.
When that battery gets too low, hook up jumpers to the car battery (which
will then re-power stuff right away), and turn on the car to charge the
batteries/supply add'l power. Then, when the batts are charged, shut off
the car again.

The more batts you have outside the car, the more efficient this strategy
should be.
And then when power is restored, recharge all the batts with a Sears
charger, and then maintain with a trickle charger.
AND you'll always have a spare batt fer yer car....
--

I have no idea, but how much gas would a car use to power the small
inverter, vers say a one or two KW generator for a day or two ?

That's a very good Q.
Small engines are notoriously inefficient, but then, well, they are small --
visavis a much larger more efficient engine, which is more efficient, but,
then, well, BIG!

A small car would do better in this regard, than a large engine. Ideally, a
small car with a big-assed alternator.

And that's why I suggested a bank of external batts, with the car used to
recharge them as nec (while still supplying power to the house). That way,
instead of the car engine running all the time (undoubtedly with a lot of
waste), when it does run, it's running to produce watts, and not just idling
for one light bulb.

But, apparently Trader is too worried about the Fire Dept. and deadly
extension cords, to entertain any of these idears.
--
EA

On 10/3/2012 7:08 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On 03 Oct 2012 00:54:11 GMT, Han wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 10/2/2012 4:23 PM, Han wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 10/2/2012 1:34 PM, Han wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 10/1/2012 3:55 PM, Han wrote:
"Atila Iskander" wrote in
:


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...
There's been a lot of talk of generators and how to store
gasoline for them which got me to thinking of the conversions
I've done for customers who wished to run them on NG or LP gas.
I would buy the kits from the small engine and parts supplier
and the installation was pretty straight forward. Today I came
across a Generac unit that is LP ready and has a built in
carrier for a 20lb propane tank. It appears to be a slick
little system with none of the problems from stale gasoline
gumming up a genset that sits for too long. ^_^

http://www.generac.com/Portables/LP_...oducts/LP3250/

TDD

At about $600 for the generator, you can buy a bigger one and a
separate conversion kit for less and be able to run either NG,
LP or gasoline
More flexibility for the same price.

I am looking for a generator like that. Do you have any specific
suggestions? Please?


What power output are you looking for? Or, what do you wish to run
at the same time? ^_^

Furnace, microwave, fridge, laptops. I guess the fridge is the
largest thing, a 10 year-old GE, the tag says it draws 6.5Amp.

Thanks!!


Han, depending on the wattage, the microwave may draw more current.
The furnace will have a label showing what the blower motor pulls.
For a 1/2 HP 115 volt blower motor, the current draw could be 6.5 to
8.5 amps. It's best to check it out before getting a generator
that's too small. ^_^

TDD

Furnace is natural gas, hot water circulator drawing 0.76 Amp.
Thermostat etc shouldn't draw much, I think.

Microwave is 900 watt, but it is a convection oven as well GE model
1490

Your help is appreciated!


Most of the Generac units I installed in homes some years ago were
8,000 watt natural gas powered automatic standby generators and it
was enough to power what you are referring to. Of course I installed
as large as 40kw for some customers but my favorite Generac was the
10kw 4cyl liquid cooled engine unit that ran at 1,800rpm which made
it very quiet and long lasting. ^_^

TDD

Well, I've lived here almost 14 years, and things have gotten worse. In
the last 2 years we've had 3 outages of around 48 hours each. We did
fine through those, but it wasn't too cold during those. Our hot water
heater is natural gas only, no electric power required. Stove top the
same. But we are over 65, and I am not looking forward to a bad storm
with real cold weather. Hence the questions.

When we lived in Vermont, the backup heat was a wood stove in the living room.
The permanent solution was to move South, though. ;-)


I doubt my aching joints would allow me live in a Northern climate. O_o

TDD

I guess it's good that the USA includes some temperate lattitudes?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...

When we lived in Vermont, the backup heat was a wood stove in the living
room.
The permanent solution was to move South, though. ;-)


I doubt my aching joints would allow me live in a Northern climate. O_o

TDD

" wrote in
:

On 03 Oct 2012 13:39:17 GMT, Han wrote:

Smitty Two wrote in
:

In article ,
Han wrote:

It scares me that starting current for a fridge would be more than
twice nominal current. I have to look what kind of circuit breaker
the fridge is on. How long would the peak startup amps be
required, since the circuit breaker doesn't blow.

Inrush current is ferocious, but lasts for much less than a second.
Circuit breakers don't trip anywhere near that fast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current

I am looking at real world scenarios, i.e. would generator "X" supply
the required current to "start" my fridge? Without damage to either,
obviously. So, if there is a 30 Amp current for 1 nanosec, that
probably wouldn't mean anything, would it?

The starting surge lasts long enough to spin up the motor, so it's a
lot longer than a nsec, more like a second. Yes, the electronics in
the generator cares.

OK, then I have to have more leeway ... Good to know.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

" wrote in
:

snip
Maybe he could build a whole freaking battery and inverter
farm in his garge and connect it to his car. And he could
run the car in the garage, where he knocks himself out
after tripping over all those extension cords running all
over the place. As he crashes to the floor, pulling the
many inverters with him, the wires
running all over the batteries short out, adding to the
drama for the firemen when they arrive.

As for always having a spare battery, do
you think car batteries last forever?

If I were doing this, I'd just buy about a 7KW generator.
I'd install one of the Interlockit kits on the panel together
with an inlet to connect the generator to. With that
and one extension cord, I could power whatever I
please in the house.

While I could afford to install a 7kW generator system, it doesn't make
all that much financial sense to invest 10-15K (including installation by
a qualified tech and permits) for something that might happen once a year
or once every third year.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:30:33 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 10/3/2012 7:08 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On 03 Oct 2012 00:54:11 GMT, Han wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 10/2/2012 4:23 PM, Han wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 10/2/2012 1:34 PM, Han wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

On 10/1/2012 3:55 PM, Han wrote:
"Atila Iskander" wrote in
:


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...
There's been a lot of talk of generators and how to store
gasoline for them which got me to thinking of the conversions
I've done for customers who wished to run them on NG or LP gas.
I would buy the kits from the small engine and parts supplier
and the installation was pretty straight forward. Today I came
across a Generac unit that is LP ready and has a built in
carrier for a 20lb propane tank. It appears to be a slick
little system with none of the problems from stale gasoline
gumming up a genset that sits for too long. ^_^

http://www.generac.com/Portables/LP_...oducts/LP3250/

TDD

At about $600 for the generator, you can buy a bigger one and a
separate conversion kit for less and be able to run either NG,
LP or gasoline
More flexibility for the same price.

I am looking for a generator like that. Do you have any specific
suggestions? Please?


What power output are you looking for? Or, what do you wish to run
at the same time? ^_^

Furnace, microwave, fridge, laptops. I guess the fridge is the
largest thing, a 10 year-old GE, the tag says it draws 6.5Amp.

Thanks!!


Han, depending on the wattage, the microwave may draw more current.
The furnace will have a label showing what the blower motor pulls.
For a 1/2 HP 115 volt blower motor, the current draw could be 6.5 to
8.5 amps. It's best to check it out before getting a generator
that's too small. ^_^

TDD

Furnace is natural gas, hot water circulator drawing 0.76 Amp.
Thermostat etc shouldn't draw much, I think.

Microwave is 900 watt, but it is a convection oven as well GE model
1490

Your help is appreciated!


Most of the Generac units I installed in homes some years ago were
8,000 watt natural gas powered automatic standby generators and it
was enough to power what you are referring to. Of course I installed
as large as 40kw for some customers but my favorite Generac was the
10kw 4cyl liquid cooled engine unit that ran at 1,800rpm which made
it very quiet and long lasting. ^_^

TDD

Well, I've lived here almost 14 years, and things have gotten worse. In
the last 2 years we've had 3 outages of around 48 hours each. We did
fine through those, but it wasn't too cold during those. Our hot water
heater is natural gas only, no electric power required. Stove top the
same. But we are over 65, and I am not looking forward to a bad storm
with real cold weather. Hence the questions.

When we lived in Vermont, the backup heat was a wood stove in the living room.
The permanent solution was to move South, though. ;-)


I doubt my aching joints would allow me live in a Northern climate. O_o

Me either. I'm certainly not going back! I'll visit the kid in the summer
(July 4, from 3:00-4:00PM).

Seriously, my knees and feet are 90% better since I moved to the South.
Insteaad of many weeks each year of severe pain (several days unable to walk)
I have a couple of days a year of bearable pain.

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
news:506ba0f0$0$9827
"Robert Green" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I've finally broken down and got a CCTV recorder (dirt cheap, under $100
with 4WP IR colorcams w/o HD) that can send me email alerts if video
motion
is detected and then send pictures or live video of what the cameras
see;
it even allows me to switch views remotely. Forget audio monitoring,
forget
waiting on someone to respond.

CCTV security is an inneresting topic, worthy of it's own thread. At
Costco
I see these Lorex units, 8 channel/8 cameras, for $499, wonder if they're
worth it.

To see the face of the creep who smashed in your car window to steal $1 in
change is worth a lot of money to some, particularly if it's a neighbor.
More importantly the cameras act as a deterrent just by being there. If
you've got an old SATA drive lying around you can get a decent unit for
$100. Really. I was amazed because this stuff used to cost thousands but
the boards inside kept getting smaller and smaller and now a CCTV recorder
just depends on a few big chips.

I'm sure there's software out there that could use existing pc's/drives,
w/
cheap cameras.

I used to do that, but these dedicated boxes run linux and do their one job
remarkably well. Most recorders use PC SATA drives so you can repurpose
older disks and use them til they wear out. Look at Google for Zmodo four
camera systems. I am very happy with mine for the price.

Heh, or an "app"....
I imagine a minor problem with wireless setups is the possibility of
"jamming" them, like cell-phone jammers.

I don't use wireless cameras for that very reason. Unless you use the high
powered gear like law enforcement uses, you're going to get a sub-optimal
picture that can be wiped out by a microwave oven. I started with wireless
but they all sit in a box now because wired is so much better, picture wise.

Where I am, it's already quasi-insurrection -- despite million-dollar
homes.
Or mebbe it's just anarchy.... I don't know, hard to tell sometimes,
when
you don't understand any of the languages....

Could be time to trot, bwana. (-: Seriously, though, a lot of things are
happening that also happened just before the Civil War in terms of societal
polarization.

Have you checked Craig's list to see if anyone's selling a generator just
like yours? I read about someone who found his stolen motorcycle that way.
I wonder what percent of items for sale on Craig's list are hot?

--
Bobby G.

On Thu, 4 Oct 2012 04:25:11 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:




To see the face of the creep who smashed in your car window to steal $1 in
change is worth a lot of money to some, particularly if it's a neighbor.

There is an easier and cheaper way. Don't lock your car. I've had my
car broken into twice over the last many years. The only loss is a
quart of oil in the back seat. Other cars parked near me that were
locked, had broken windows, pry marks etc.

If a thief wants your car, it is gone. The pro can get around locks
and alarms in seconds, the amateur will cause a lot of damage.

On Oct 4, 6:08*am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2012 04:25:11 -0400, "Robert Green"

wrote:

To see the face of the creep who smashed in your car window to steal $1 in
change is worth a lot of money to some, particularly if it's a neighbor.

There is an easier and cheaper way. *Don't lock your car. *I've had my
car broken into twice over the last many years. *The only loss is a
quart of oil in the back seat. *Other cars parked near me that were
locked, had broken windows, pry marks etc.

If a thief wants your car, it is gone. *The pro can get around locks
and alarms in seconds, the amateur will cause a lot of damage.

That was my theory when I was a student years ago
in Boston. I had a fiat 124 Spyder, which was a convertible.
I figured if I locked it, they would just cut the roof or do other
damage to open it. I outfitted it with an alarm and left it
unlocked. And it worked. The alarm went off a few times,
but they gave up and didn't get anything.

On Oct 3, 8:06*pm, "
wrote:
On 03 Oct 2012 13:39:17 GMT, Han wrote:





Smitty Two wrote in
:

In article ,
*Han wrote:

It scares me that starting current for a fridge would be more than
twice nominal current. *I have to look what kind of circuit breaker
the fridge is on. *How long would the peak startup amps be required,
since the circuit breaker doesn't blow.

Inrush current is ferocious, but lasts for much less than a second.
Circuit breakers don't trip anywhere near that fast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current

I am looking at real world scenarios, i.e. would generator "X" supply the
required current to "start" my fridge? *Without damage to either,
obviously. *So, if there is a 30 Amp current for 1 nanosec, that probably
wouldn't mean anything, would it?

The starting surge lasts long enough to spin up the motor, so it's a lot
longer than a nsec, more like a second. *Yes, the electronics in the generator
cares.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The generator is capable of handling a startup current that lasts for
a second or two that exceeds it's regular continuous rated capacity.
Exactly how much should be in the spec sheets.

On Oct 3, 11:07*pm, Han wrote:
" wrote :

snip





Maybe he could build a whole freaking battery and inverter
farm in his garge and connect it to his car. * And he could
run the car in the garage, where he knocks himself out
after tripping over all those extension cords running all
over the place. *As he crashes to the floor, pulling the
many inverters with him, the wires
running all over the batteries short out, adding to the
drama for the firemen when they arrive.

As for always having a spare battery, do
you think car batteries last forever?

If I were doing this, I'd just buy about a 7KW generator.
I'd install one of the Interlockit kits on the panel together
with an inlet to connect the generator to. * With that
and one extension cord, I could power whatever I
please in the house.

While I could afford to install a 7kW generator system, it doesn't make
all that much financial sense to invest 10-15K (including installation by
a qualified tech and permits) for something that might happen once a year
or once every third year.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you think it costs $10K to $15K to get what I
outlined you're getting hosed big time. For half that
price I could get a full automatic transfer system installed.

The system I proposed could be easily had for $1500.
Probably $1000 if you don't need or want 7KW.

On Oct 3, 9:00*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message

news






"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

Another way to do this, which might could save some gas, is to have a
second battery outside the car, powering your stuff.
When that battery gets too low, hook up jumpers to the car battery (which
will then re-power stuff right away), and turn on the car to charge the
batteries/supply add'l power. *Then, when the batts are charged, shut off
the car again.

The more batts you have outside the car, the more efficient this strategy
should be.
And then when power is restored, recharge all the batts with a Sears
charger, and then maintain with a trickle charger.
AND you'll always have a spare batt fer yer car.... *
--

I have no idea, but how much gas would a car use to power the small
inverter, vers say a one or two KW generator for a day or two ?

That's a very good Q.
Small engines are notoriously inefficient, but then, well, they are small --
visavis a much larger more efficient engine, which is more efficient, but,
then, well, BIG!

A small car would do better in this regard, than a large engine. *Ideally, a
small car with a big-assed alternator. *

And that's why I suggested a bank of external batts, with the car used to
recharge them as nec (while still supplying power to the house). *That way,
instead of the car engine running all the time (undoubtedly with a lot of
waste), when it does run, it's running to produce watts, and not just idling
for one light bulb.

But, apparently Trader is too worried about the Fire Dept. and deadly
extension cords, to entertain any of these idears.
--
EA




Yes, you've got it now. I'm not much interested in connecting
the car to a bank of batteries that have to sit in the garage,
connected to multiple inverters, with multiple extension cords
running God knows how many feet around the house to
whatever needs to be run. And then making the adaptions,
code compliant of course, to the furnace, well pump, etc
that need to be run.

Not when I could just buy a portable generator, an Iterlockit
kit for the panel, an inlet and one heavy duty extension cord.
With that, I can then directly power anything in the house
I feel like. I can switch from running the well pump to running
the microwave with a flip of a breaker. I could also make
the generator one that runs on NG or buy a conversion kit
to make it run on NG. Now I have an endless supply of
fuel, unlike the car sitting in the garage. Are you proposing
that the car always be kept full? Every time you come home,
late at night, with the car near empty and it's raining, you
can make an extra trip to the gas station to fill err up.
How convenient.

" wrote in news:7920799a-
:

If you think it costs $10K to $15K to get what I
outlined you're getting hosed big time. For half that
price I could get a full automatic transfer system installed.

The system I proposed could be easily had for $1500.
Probably $1000 if you don't need or want 7KW.

Now you've got me thinking ... One of my problems would be siting for a
permanent installation. A semi permanent one would be possible - generator
on wheels to get in and out of garage, then connections, transfer switch,
etc.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

wrote in message
...
On Oct 3, 9:00 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message

news






"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

Another way to do this, which might could save some gas, is to have a
second battery outside the car, powering your stuff.
When that battery gets too low, hook up jumpers to the car battery
(which
will then re-power stuff right away), and turn on the car to charge the
batteries/supply add'l power. Then, when the batts are charged, shut
off
the car again.

The more batts you have outside the car, the more efficient this
strategy
should be.
And then when power is restored, recharge all the batts with a Sears
charger, and then maintain with a trickle charger.
AND you'll always have a spare batt fer yer car....
--

I have no idea, but how much gas would a car use to power the small
inverter, vers say a one or two KW generator for a day or two ?

That's a very good Q.
Small engines are notoriously inefficient, but then, well, they are
small --
visavis a much larger more efficient engine, which is more efficient, but,
then, well, BIG!

A small car would do better in this regard, than a large engine. Ideally,
a
small car with a big-assed alternator.

And that's why I suggested a bank of external batts, with the car used to
recharge them as nec (while still supplying power to the house). That way,
instead of the car engine running all the time (undoubtedly with a lot of
waste), when it does run, it's running to produce watts, and not just
idling
for one light bulb.

But, apparently Trader is too worried about the Fire Dept. and deadly
extension cords, to entertain any of these idears.
--
EA




Yes, you've got it now. I'm not much interested in connecting
the car to a bank of batteries that have to sit in the garage,
connected to multiple inverters, with multiple extension cords
running God knows how many feet around the house to
whatever needs to be run. And then making the adaptions,
code compliant of course, to the furnace, well pump, etc
that need to be run.

Not when I could just buy a portable generator, an Iterlockit
kit for the panel, an inlet and one heavy duty extension cord.
With that, I can then directly power anything in the house
I feel like. I can switch from running the well pump to running
the microwave with a flip of a breaker. I could also make
the generator one that runs on NG or buy a conversion kit
to make it run on NG. Now I have an endless supply of
fuel, unlike the car sitting in the garage. Are you proposing
that the car always be kept full? Every time you come home,
late at night, with the car near empty and it's raining, you
can make an extra trip to the gas station to fill err up.
How convenient.

=================================================

Again you miss the point.
At 0.3 gal/hr, with 10 gal of gas in the tank, you'd be good for 30 hrs.
Pro-rate as you wish.

And nat gas is great too, IF you are up for all that that entails.
I in fact was up for it, bec before my genset was purloined, I was just
about to send off the carb for tri-fuel modification.... I was going for
the whole backup banana, albeit on the cheap.

But, having started all the prepwork for this, I realized what a MEGA pita
this all was going to be, really a lot of work.
So in a sense, the theft did me a slight favor. I need a real backup system
proly more than most near-urban dwellars, but even for me, the car/inverter
thing just seems to be a better, more trouble free solution -- albeit a less
powerful solution.

It's all risk/reward. I don't think Sylvan teaches this, so I won't bother
with the link.... again....

Oh, for those of you who DO want what I *was* going to install for myself,
check out
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...sp?page=H03369 with a
Honder engine.

good company, this unit is virtually identical to the BlackMax unit at Sam's
club, except with the tri-fuel conversion.
I believe the extra dough over the blackmax is well worth it. Very stable
unit, power-wise, really impressive.

But, I'm almost certainly going to go the car/inverter route.
BUT, if there's another Halloween fiasco (which I escaped, miraculously
enough), I'll go the tri-fuel route -- again.

But, for slow-wits like Trader, I'll repeat the issues:
A tri-fuel ditty is great (for the nat gas, which I started), but the
pita/installation is just MEGA for a diy-er, OR really expensive for the
non-diy-er. AND over $1500 just to get started.
An inverter on my car will be $90 or so, and a few extension cords....

Case closed..... for now.
--
EA

On Thu, 4 Oct 2012 05:35:26 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Oct 3, 8:06*pm, "
wrote:
On 03 Oct 2012 13:39:17 GMT, Han wrote:





Smitty Two wrote in
:

In article ,
*Han wrote:

It scares me that starting current for a fridge would be more than
twice nominal current. *I have to look what kind of circuit breaker
the fridge is on. *How long would the peak startup amps be required,
since the circuit breaker doesn't blow.

Inrush current is ferocious, but lasts for much less than a second.
Circuit breakers don't trip anywhere near that fast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current

I am looking at real world scenarios, i.e. would generator "X" supply the
required current to "start" my fridge? *Without damage to either,
obviously. *So, if there is a 30 Amp current for 1 nanosec, that probably
wouldn't mean anything, would it?

The starting surge lasts long enough to spin up the motor, so it's a lot
longer than a nsec, more like a second. *Yes, the electronics in the generator
cares.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The generator is capable of handling a startup current that lasts for
a second or two that exceeds it's regular continuous rated capacity.
Exactly how much should be in the spec sheets.

The amount of data that's in spec sheets is generally proportional to the
price tag. HF? Not much.

On Thu, 4 Oct 2012 11:47:00 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:



But, I'm almost certainly going to go the car/inverter route.
BUT, if there's another Halloween fiasco (which I escaped, miraculously
enough), I'll go the tri-fuel route -- again.


When I looked into inverters I saw contractors using them for on-site
120v tools, and one guy in rural Canada who powered his furnace and a
few other things during an outage or outages.
What stopped me was the lugging and connectability issues to my car.
You need heavy lugs and cabling from your car battery, and that's runs
up the cost by a surprising amount. Then you have to consider how to
conceal that stuff and/or make the connections when you need them.
I still like the idea, but it takes some thought and study to set it
up right.
But I've only had one multi-day outage here in 15 years.
Big freak windstorm took out many lines. About 72 hours.
In the end the easier more cost-effective option for me is to do
nothing, and roll with what comes.
I really like the "get out of town" option best.
But the problem with that is knowing how long the outage will last.
They didn't even start projecting restored service until about 24
hours in, then they were a 1-3 days off with the projections.
That's what made it bad for us. Not knowing when the power would come
back.
I kept remembering this
http://www.hulu.com/#!watch/281936

Can't help the 15 second ad. That's how it goes now on much of the
internet.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 Oct 2012 11:47:00 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:



But, I'm almost certainly going to go the car/inverter route.
BUT, if there's another Halloween fiasco (which I escaped, miraculously
enough), I'll go the tri-fuel route -- again.


When I looked into inverters I saw contractors using them for on-site
120v tools, and one guy in rural Canada who powered his furnace and a
few other things during an outage or outages.
What stopped me was the lugging and connectability issues to my car.
You need heavy lugs and cabling from your car battery, and that's runs
up the cost by a surprising amount. Then you have to consider how to
conceal that stuff and/or make the connections when you need them.
I still like the idea, but it takes some thought and study to set it
up right.

Here's a cupla idears:

Sort of along the OP's post, why not make the inverter installation
permanent?
A conveneient way to do this, without encumbering the battery or its
terminals, is to get what electricians call "bugs" which attach right onto a
wire, midspan, without cutting it. The wires you splice in (mebbe thin-ish
welding cable to the inverter, very flexible) could be fused/switched as
well, altho the main fuse on the car may take care of this.

Run some wires to the car cabin, so you have 120 V in there to use, and a
heavy-duty receptacle(s) for extension cords to the house, if they are not
already on the inverter.

Then, it should be plug'n'play, whenever an outtage occurs, and you'll have
120 V inside the car, as well.
--
EA



But I've only had one multi-day outage here in 15 years.
Big freak windstorm took out many lines. About 72 hours.
In the end the easier more cost-effective option for me is to do
nothing, and roll with what comes.
I really like the "get out of town" option best.
But the problem with that is knowing how long the outage will last.
They didn't even start projecting restored service until about 24
hours in, then they were a 1-3 days off with the projections.
That's what made it bad for us. Not knowing when the power would come
back.
I kept remembering this
http://www.hulu.com/#!watch/281936

Can't help the 15 second ad. That's how it goes now on much of the
internet.

I'm sure some people are able to do that. I remember one inverter I bought,
sternly telling me not to mount it under the hood of my car. Well, never
mind that otherwise good idea. I'm guessing a car alternator can put out a
useful bit of current. And, that you fill the fuel by driving the car to
the gas station (where they have power).

For my power cut needs at home, I've got a little generator, and some gas
oil mix in my chain saw box.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Vic Smith" wrote in message

When I looked into inverters I saw contractors using them for on-site
120v tools, and one guy in rural Canada who powered his furnace and a
few other things during an outage or outages.
What stopped me was the lugging and connectability issues to my car.
You need heavy lugs and cabling from your car battery, and that's runs
up the cost by a surprising amount. Then you have to consider how to
conceal that stuff and/or make the connections when you need them.
I still like the idea, but it takes some thought and study to set it
up right.
But I've only had one multi-day outage here in 15 years.
Big freak windstorm took out many lines. About 72 hours.
In the end the easier more cost-effective option for me is to do
nothing, and roll with what comes.
I really like the "get out of town" option best.
But the problem with that is knowing how long the outage will last.
They didn't even start projecting restored service until about 24
hours in, then they were a 1-3 days off with the projections.
That's what made it bad for us. Not knowing when the power would come
back.
I kept remembering this
http://www.hulu.com/#!watch/281936

Can't help the 15 second ad. That's how it goes now on much of the
internet.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message In the end
the easier more cost-effective option for me is to do
nothing, and roll with what comes.
I really like the "get out of town" option best.
But the problem with that is knowing how long the outage will last.
They didn't even start projecting restored service until about 24
hours in, then they were a 1-3 days off with the projections.
That's what made it bad for us. Not knowing when the power would come
back.

The get out of town might not be a bad idea in some locations. If it is
winter time and the power goes out for several days and no heat,the water
pipes may burst. While the insurance may take care of it, it is still going
to be lots of trouble to deal with.
That is one reason to stay home and keep the home fires burning so to speak.

While I do not burn it very much, there is a wood stove in the basement and
a small ammount of wood to last a week or two if needed.. Also a small 5 kw
generator I have had for over 10 years,but never hooked it to the house. I
was going to one time,but the thing would not start. The power came back on
in a few hours that day.

A gentle reminder, perhaps this week is the right
time to haul that generator out, and see if you
can get it to run? I'm guessing if it fights you,
perhaps your friends and neighbors can help.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...

Also a small 5 kw generator I have had for
over 10 years,but never hooked it to the house. I
was going to one time,but the thing would not start.
The power came back on in a few hours that day.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...

"Vic Smith" wrote in message In the
end the easier more cost-effective option for me is to do
nothing, and roll with what comes.
I really like the "get out of town" option best.
But the problem with that is knowing how long the outage will last.
They didn't even start projecting restored service until about 24
hours in, then they were a 1-3 days off with the projections.
That's what made it bad for us. Not knowing when the power would come
back.

The get out of town might not be a bad idea in some locations. If it is
winter time and the power goes out for several days and no heat,the water
pipes may burst. While the insurance may take care of it, it is still
going to be lots of trouble to deal with.
That is one reason to stay home and keep the home fires burning so to
speak.

While I do not burn it very much, there is a wood stove in the basement
and a small ammount of wood to last a week or two if needed.. Also a
small 5 kw generator I have had for over 10 years,but never hooked it to
the house. I was going to one time,but the thing would not start. The
power came back on in a few hours that day.

Exactly what I was talking about.
Now imagine if it was a fancy-schmancy Generac, all solid state, and Generac
refused to come out....
not sumpn your neighbor can help you with.

Which is another thing I meant to mention to Han.... the *complexity* of
these standby's is just too much.
That's why I went with a BlackMax, that I could hook up myself, with no
black-boxedness to it beyond the voltage regulator.
--
EA

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
A gentle reminder, perhaps this week is the right
time to haul that generator out, and see if you
can get it to run? I'm guessing if it fights you,
perhaps your friends and neighbors can help.


After cleaning out the carborator three times, I now use the Stabil in the
gas and start it every time I mow the grass. I found that if I start it
when I use the leaf blower to blow the grass off the driveway and walks,
that is about the right ammount of time to let it run to really warm up.
Also I take a drill or saw or other device out to it and plug it in to make
sure the generator part is putting out. I have heard that sometimes the
generator will not put out any current if it is not ran under some load from
time to time. The generator stays outside in a 4 foot each way 'dog house'
that I built. It sits on some concreter blocks and also the top is on a
hinge so I can run it with the top and one side open for cooling.