My fan has burned out, literally, with a fire.

I have 3 or more choices.

Fix the fan:
1) Rewind the motor myself. The motor shop will do it for me for
200 but I'd much rather do it myself. I'll do the winding while I'm
watching TV. Magnet wire runs between $6 and 11 including shipping.

I went to 3 shops to buy a new motor, but failing that, I asked for
advice on rebuilding: The first motor shop said it used 31 gauge.
The second shop is closing and he couldn't find his wire gauge, but
his micrometer said it was 0.010 inches, which is 30 gauge. And the
third shop said it used 29 gauge. The first and third shops
didn't tell me if they used a guage or a micrometer.

What gauge should I use, 29, 30, 31, or should I take it to more
places to find out their opinion? I also have my own micrometer
around here. It's cheap, but it says exactly zero when closed and one
inch when open afaict one inch. Does that mean it will be accurate to
1/1000 of an inch?

(29 guage is 0.0113 inches; 30 gauge is 0.010 inches: and 31 guage is
0.0893 inches.)


2) The guy at the first motor store told me that he set fire to his
fan too, by oiliing it a lot, and his fan melted. (Mine can't do
that.) His wiife watched the flames, about 12" high, and said, "I
guess we need a new fan". Why couldn't I find a woman like that?

He reminded me that some fans now have remote control. That would
serve the same purpose as having the fan right above my head where I
can turn it on or off just by moving my arm.

But I can't find a table fan like that. The only ones I find are
"floor fans" that are actually too short to put on the floor and too
tall to put on a table. Plus their base is, of course, a lot bigger
than a table fan.

Does anyone know of a table fan with remote control for speed and
on/off. What and where if you remember?

Has anyone used Natural Breeze and did you like it? What brand if
you remember?


3) Buy a simlar fan to use for parts. On the web I learned that
this one is between 77 and 79 years old . (It's an Alliance Model R)

I found two similar models that were auctioned about 6 years ago, one
with a marble-like agate base. And I found another one on Ebay.
now, but he says "It needs a new cord. I don't know if it works."
Well, it was 25 plus 9 shipping yesterday, but it's up 51 and ten
bids now. That's almost as much as one that the previous aucition
seller said worked. ($82) .
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200808769740... 4.m1438.l2649


Thanks a lot for any help you can give me.

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 18:02:58 -0400, micky
wrote:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/200808769740... 4.m1438.l2649


Thanks a lot for any help you can give me.

I had a really old fan similar to that. Oscillator. Kept it on my
workbench and used it a lot. Neat because it was really old.
Sort of turned back time when you looked at it.
But I can't say I miss it.
I recommend:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...ords=table+fan

Then if you feel like turning back time, just look at some pictures of
old fans. But maybe somebody here can guide you in rebuilding it.

micky,

WalMart seems to carry table fans with remote controls and table fans
without remote controls. I'd bet other stores do too. Go and look now. In
another month the Summer stuff won't be on the shelves. Do not oil the motor
unless product literature advises you to oil the motor.

Dave M.

In article ,
micky wrote:

I have 3 or more choices.

Fix the fan:
1) Rewind the motor myself. The motor shop will do it for me for
200 but I'd much rather do it myself. I'll do the winding while I'm
watching TV. Magnet wire runs between $6 and 11 including shipping.

I went to 3 shops to buy a new motor, but failing that, I asked for
advice on rebuilding: The first motor shop said it used 31 gauge.
The second shop is closing and he couldn't find his wire gauge, but
his micrometer said it was 0.010 inches, which is 30 gauge. And the
third shop said it used 29 gauge. The first and third shops
didn't tell me if they used a guage or a micrometer.

What gauge should I use, 29, 30, 31, or should I take it to more
places to find out their opinion? I also have my own micrometer
around here. It's cheap, but it says exactly zero when closed and one
inch when open afaict one inch. Does that mean it will be accurate to
1/1000 of an inch?

(29 guage is 0.0113 inches; 30 gauge is 0.010 inches: and 31 guage is
0.0893 inches.)



You apparently have internet access, so you have access to at least
100,000 motors that your 3 local shops don't stock. You may be able to
identify the frame size, mounting style, RPM, HP, and any other relevant
info, and buy a new motor.

Regarding magnet wire, I'm somewhat familiar with it because I have
wound transformers, guitar pickups, and various small coils in a
production environment.

Your motor is not wound with bare copper, obviously. Insulation adds
thickness. That complicates reverse engineering.

There are several different materials used for insulation these days,
and they may be applied in different thicknesses. Likely these materials
are different than those used when your fan was made.

Wire gauge is related to some "nominal" diameter, a chart of which you
obviously have. Actual varies from nominal. I specify "min to nom"
(minimum to nominal) when I buy 42 AWG wire for guitar pickups, because
I need to cram thousands of turns into a small space. The supplier goes
out into the warehouse with a toolroom micrometer and looks for spools
that are running on the low side of nominal for me.

So, with an unknown material at an unknown thickness used for
insulation, no way to know how close the wire you actually have is to
the nominal diameter for the specified gauge, and an inexpensive
micrometer, I'll confirm that you're in somewhat of a pickle as far as
wire gauge identification.

All that said, if you've got the physical room for it, I'd go with the
29. Bigger is better, right? Getting the right number of turns on there
is more important than DC resistance anyway, so focus on counting well.

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:19:29 -0400, "Dave M."
wrote:

micky,

WalMart seems to carry table fans with remote controls and table fans
without remote controls.

Exactly. Isn't that strange? Allthough if I search there for
table fan remote I get lots of hits, and none of them
are table fans with remote. If I put a + in front of remote, it
doesn't change things.

I'd bet other stores do too.

I coudl only think of Sears and Target. Some expensive company,
like SharperImage, but not them, had a fancier version of the Walmart
floor fan.

Another fan would adjust the fan speed based on how hot the room was.
I sure don't want that.

Go and look now. In
another month the Summer stuff won't be on the shelves.

The guy at the big motor store said I shouldn't have oiled my motor.
I said, What do I do when it stops spining? Buy a new motor. But
you don't sell them! Then he told me how he oiled his motor
over and over, and eventually it caught on fire and melted.

Do not oil the motor
unless product literature advises you to oil the motor.

Okay.

Dave M.

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:19:02 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
micky wrote:

I have 3 or more choices.

Fix the fan:
1) Rewind the motor myself. The motor shop will do it for me for
200 but I'd much rather do it myself. I'll do the winding while I'm
watching TV. Magnet wire runs between $6 and 11 including shipping.

I went to 3 shops to buy a new motor, but failing that, I asked for
advice on rebuilding: The first motor shop said it used 31 gauge.
The second shop is closing and he couldn't find his wire gauge, but
his micrometer said it was 0.010 inches, which is 30 gauge. And the
third shop said it used 29 gauge. The first and third shops
didn't tell me if they used a guage or a micrometer.

What gauge should I use, 29, 30, 31, or should I take it to more
places to find out their opinion? I also have my own micrometer
around here. It's cheap, but it says exactly zero when closed and one
inch when open afaict one inch. Does that mean it will be accurate to
1/1000 of an inch?

(29 guage is 0.0113 inches; 30 gauge is 0.010 inches: and 31 guage is
0.0893 inches.)



You apparently have internet access, so you have access to at least
100,000 motors that your 3 local shops don't stock. You may be able to
identify the frame size, mounting style, RPM, HP, and any other relevant
info, and buy a new motor.

Regarding magnet wire, I'm somewhat familiar with it because I have
wound transformers, guitar pickups, and various small coils in a
production environment.

Your motor is not wound with bare copper, obviously. Insulation adds
thickness. That complicates reverse engineering.

I hadn't thought of that, and none of the three mentioned it.

There are several different materials used for insulation these days,
and they may be applied in different thicknesses. Likely these materials
are different than those used when your fan was made.

Wire gauge is related to some "nominal" diameter, a chart of which you
obviously have. Actual varies from nominal. I specify "min to nom"
(minimum to nominal) when I buy 42 AWG wire for guitar pickups, because
I need to cram thousands of turns into a small space. The supplier goes
out into the warehouse with a toolroom micrometer and looks for spools
that are running on the low side of nominal for me.

Very interesting.

So, with an unknown material at an unknown thickness used for
insulation, no way to know how close the wire you actually have is to
the nominal diameter for the specified gauge, and an inexpensive
micrometer, I'll confirm that you're in somewhat of a pickle as far as
wire gauge identification.

All that said, if you've got the physical room for it, I'd go with the
29. Bigger is better, right?

Maybe, Are you sure? I need to check my notes. The second guy,
who has owned and run a motor repair shop for decades, told me one or
the other, and that I couldn't do the other. He's 75 and in the
process of going out of business. (He looks great.) No one in the
family wanted the business. Every day he has to get rid of
something he didn't want to get rid of. He had a roof-mounted,
on-rails hoist that IMO would lift at least a ton.

He gave me a piece of "paper" to use around the C-frame, so the wire
doesn't go right on the metal. It's much heavier than most paper.
He said I need something out of fiberglass or similar to make the
sides of the coil. (The orignnal was some sort of cardboard, I think.
It's crumbling of course, after 75 years and a fire. )

Getting the right number of turns on there
is more important than DC resistance anyway, so focus on counting well.

I think I can do that. One of them told me to weigh the copper and go
buy that, but this wire looks fairly easy to unwind. More recent
motors are varnished after they are wound, and one webpage said to
bake the motor for 3 hours (or more, I have to look) untill the
varnish burns up. But I don't think this motor had any. If there
is varnish where I can't see it yet, I'll bake it.

The webpage said after winding to varnish** it and bake it for 7
hours, at a lower termperature. And the third motor shop confirmed
these things when I asked.

**The third shop used the word shellac. Is it more like shellac or
varnish?


As far as burning the house down -- that someone mentioned --. after
it's finished, I'll run it, outside where there is nothing to burn for
2 or 3 hours and see if it gets hot. I could tell when the old motor
was warmer than normal, and if this gets warmer than that, I'll
probalby just call it antique and wait until I find another motor that
fits.

As to fitting, the current motor has studs that are 1.5 inches on
center (as opposed to the newer ones that are at least 2" oc.)
It has a stack that is 5/8" thick, although I don't think stack size
is critical. It has a shaft that is 1/8" Diam. although almost all
C-Frame motors now have 3/16" shaft or bigger. Except for -- I
haven't seen it in person -- one model with a much longer shaft, that
has 3 different diameters as it gets closer to the motor. They sell
this at a local industrial supply house. I have to order it by 8PM
for the store to have it the next day, so it's nearby. .

I can drill out the blade hub to accept a 3/16" shaft if everything
else is good enough.

It's very easy to find the next size bigger than this motor was. And
they almost fit, though I'd have to drill 4 more holes for each end of
both studs. plus still use two screws in 2 original holes to hold the
grill on. Plus put something around it to join the front half of the
case to the rear half.

Even though I have a suitable new fan now, I'm still going to rewiind
this one. It will, I hope, make up for a bad job rewinding an
Erector Set motor when I was 13.

In article ,
micky wrote:

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:19:02 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:



All that said, if you've got the physical room for it, I'd go with the
29. Bigger is better, right?

Maybe, Are you sure?

No.

I need to check my notes. The second guy,
who has owned and run a motor repair shop for decades, told me one or
the other, and that I couldn't do the other.

I'd go with his recommendation, although IIRC, you said he couldn't find
his gauge when you were there ...


He gave me a piece of "paper" to use around the C-frame, so the wire
doesn't go right on the metal.

That's called fishpaper.



The webpage said after winding to varnish** it and bake it for 7
hours, at a lower termperature. And the third motor shop confirmed
these things when I asked.


You might want to look into "thermal bond" wire. Once you're done
winding, you just bake it in the oven for 1/2 hour or so. It's less
trouble and much less messy than varnishing.




As far as burning the house down -- that someone mentioned --

Good grief. We do have our fair share of whack-jobs.



As to fitting, the current motor has studs that are 1.5 inches on
center (as opposed to the newer ones that are at least 2" oc.)


I think you'll find mounting stud dimensions listed as b.c. (bolt
circle) rather than o.c. (on center.)


Even though I have a suitable new fan now, I'm still going to rewiind
this one. It will, I hope, make up for a bad job rewinding an
Erector Set motor when I was 13.

Hell yes.


One other thing, when you're magnet wire shopping: Some wire has
"solderable" insulation. The insulation isn't really solderable, but it
melts away when you heat it to solder the copper. It's a little easier
than the stuff that you have to mechanically strip with an X-acto knife
or similar. For a one-off project, that probably is not a significant
issue, but it's something to be aware of.

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 08:36:38 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
micky wrote:

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:19:02 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:



All that said, if you've got the physical room for it, I'd go with the
29. Bigger is better, right?

Maybe, Are you sure?

No.

I need to check my notes.

Which I haven't done yet. They might say the same thing you said.

The second guy,
who has owned and run a motor repair shop for decades, told me one or
the other, and that I couldn't do the other.

I'd go with his recommendation, although IIRC, you said he couldn't find
his gauge when you were there ...

L:OL. That's because he's packing up to move. His head is already
packed. But he gave me his phone number and I may ask him again,
or one of hte ohter mtor


He gave me a piece of "paper" to use around the C-frame, so the wire
doesn't go right on the metal.

That's called fishpaper.

Ah, good.


The webpage said after winding to varnish** it and bake it for 7
hours, at a lower termperature. And the third motor shop confirmed
these things when I asked.


You might want to look into "thermal bond" wire. Once you're done
winding, you just bake it in the oven for 1/2 hour or so. It's less
trouble and much less messy than varnishing.

Okay. Definitely sounds easier.

Thanks.




As far as burning the house down -- that someone mentioned --

Good grief. We do have our fair share of whack-jobs.



As to fitting, the current motor has studs that are 1.5 inches on
center (as opposed to the newer ones that are at least 2" oc.)


I think you'll find mounting stud dimensions listed as b.c. (bolt
circle) rather than o.c. (on center.)


Even though I have a suitable new fan now, I'm still going to rewiind
this one. It will, I hope, make up for a bad job rewinding an
Erector Set motor when I was 13.

Hell yes.


One other thing, when you're magnet wire shopping: Some wire has
"solderable" insulation. The insulation isn't really solderable, but it
melts away when you heat it to solder the copper. It's a little easier
than the stuff that you have to mechanically strip with an X-acto knife
or similar. For a one-off project, that probably is not a significant
issue, but it's something to be aware of.