The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are about $400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

mcp6453 wrote:

The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are about $400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.


Is this Deja News all over again? Try using Google Groups and search for the
thread "Hot Water Recirculating Pump" in alt.home.repair.

On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt MPG @
230??

On Feb 14, 4:25*pm, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are about $400.

On Feb 15, 12:27*am, DD_BobK wrote:
On Feb 14, 4:25*pm, mcp6453 wrote:

The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are about $400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

Cheaper but similar

http://www.chilipepperapp.com/cwrcs.htm

the savings on the Taco system presented as

an average of $180.00-225.00 per year on bills for gas type water
heaters
and *$500.00-625.00 per year for electric water heaters.

What parameters was that based on? Like RBM said,
I think those are just nuts. First, if you're comparing
using a push button type pump with no pump at all,
the savings in gas is minimal.

With no pump, you have to heat enough incoming cold
water to replace the water that is in the hot water pipe
between the water heater and the point of use. That's
not a lot of water.
With a pump, you have to heat enough returned water
to replace the water that is in the hot water pipe.
So, the difference is in heating a gallon or two of water
either from about 45F or about 65F. The other small
savings would be in the cost of the gallon or two of
water that goes down the drain.

My whole gas bill in summer, which is just for
the water heater, is only $17 or so.

If you're comparing a push button system to one that
already has a pump and keeps it circulating 24/7,
then it would be more substantial, but still, those
numbers are hard to believe.

The biggest drawback to these systems, which I bet
TOH never mentioned, is that unless you install a
seperate return line from the points of use back to
the water heater, the stale, tepid water is going back
into the cold water line. There it will be available for
anyone who draws a glass of what they think is cold
fresh water. That person could be at the point-of-use
where the pump is or anywhere else along the path
of the cold water pipe going back to the water heater.
Meaning if you're drawing a pitcher of water to mix
the kids some Koolaide in the kitchen, you could be
in for a surprise. Before installing one, I'd analyze
what else is on the cold water line and figure out
hot to install a new line if necessary,.






This demand (push button) system will save energy over a continuously
circulating hot water loop.
It will save water compared to dumping cooled water down the drain.

The water savings will only be a few ¢'s per day.

The energy lost in running the loop 24/7 is harder to figure.
Here is a link to another system & the author gives energy waste
numbers

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...ot%20Water%20R...

cheers
Bob

On Feb 15, 9:57*am, "
wrote:
On Feb 15, 12:27*am, DD_BobK wrote:





On Feb 14, 4:25*pm, mcp6453 wrote:

The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are about $400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

Cheaper but similar

http://www.chilipepperapp.com/cwrcs.htm

the savings on the Taco system presented as

an average of $180.00-225.00 per year on bills for gas type water
heaters
and *$500.00-625.00 per year for electric water heaters.

What parameters was that based on? *Like RBM said,
I think those are just nuts. *First, if you're comparing
using a push button type pump with no pump at all,
the savings in gas is minimal.

With no pump, you have to heat enough incoming cold
water to replace the water that is in the hot water pipe
between the water heater and the point of use. *That's
not a lot of water.
With a pump, you have to heat enough returned water
to replace the water that is in the hot water pipe.
So, the difference is in heating a gallon or two of water
either from about 45F or about 65F. *The other small
savings would be in the cost of the gallon or two of
water that goes down the drain.

My whole gas bill in summer, which is just for
the water heater, *is only $17 or so.

If you're comparing a push button system to one that
already has a pump and keeps it circulating 24/7,
then it would be more substantial, but still, those
numbers are hard to believe.

The biggest drawback to these systems, which I bet
TOH never mentioned, is that unless you install a
seperate return line from the points of use back to
the water heater, the stale, tepid water is going back
into the cold water line. *There it will be available for
anyone who draws a glass of what they think is cold
fresh water. *That person could be at the point-of-use
where the pump is or anywhere else along the path
of the cold water pipe going back to the water heater.
Meaning if you're drawing a pitcher of water to mix
the kids some Koolaide in the kitchen, you could be
in for a surprise. *Before installing one, I'd analyze
what else is on the cold water line and figure out
hot to install a new line if necessary,.





This demand (push button) system will save energy over a continuously
circulating hot water loop.
It will save water compared to dumping cooled water down the drain.

The water savings will only be a few ¢'s per day.

The energy lost in running the loop 24/7 is harder to figure.
Here is a link to another system & the author gives energy waste
numbers

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...c/RecircEnergy.......

cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In addition. no one (including ATOH) ever mentions the cost of running
power for the pump.

On the ATOH episode in question, there was clearly a brand new
receptacle shown inside the vanity where the pump was placed.

Depending on the current electrical situation and homeowner's skill
level, the installation of the receptacle could add significant cost
(percentage wise and payback wise) to the installation.

On Feb 15, 11:20*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 15, 9:57*am, "
wrote:





On Feb 15, 12:27*am, DD_BobK wrote:

On Feb 14, 4:25*pm, mcp6453 wrote:

The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are about $400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

Cheaper but similar

http://www.chilipepperapp.com/cwrcs.htm

the savings on the Taco system presented as

an average of $180.00-225.00 per year on bills for gas type water
heaters
and *$500.00-625.00 per year for electric water heaters.

What parameters was that based on? *Like RBM said,
I think those are just nuts. *First, if you're comparing
using a push button type pump with no pump at all,
the savings in gas is minimal.

With no pump, you have to heat enough incoming cold
water to replace the water that is in the hot water pipe
between the water heater and the point of use. *That's
not a lot of water.
With a pump, you have to heat enough returned water
to replace the water that is in the hot water pipe.
So, the difference is in heating a gallon or two of water
either from about 45F or about 65F. *The other small
savings would be in the cost of the gallon or two of
water that goes down the drain.

My whole gas bill in summer, which is just for
the water heater, *is only $17 or so.

If you're comparing a push button system to one that
already has a pump and keeps it circulating 24/7,
then it would be more substantial, but still, those
numbers are hard to believe.

The biggest drawback to these systems, which I bet
TOH never mentioned, is that unless you install a
seperate return line from the points of use back to
the water heater, the stale, tepid water is going back
into the cold water line. *There it will be available for
anyone who draws a glass of what they think is cold
fresh water. *That person could be at the point-of-use
where the pump is or anywhere else along the path
of the cold water pipe going back to the water heater.
Meaning if you're drawing a pitcher of water to mix
the kids some Koolaide in the kitchen, you could be
in for a surprise. *Before installing one, I'd analyze
what else is on the cold water line and figure out
hot to install a new line if necessary,.

This demand (push button) system will save energy over a continuously
circulating hot water loop.
It will save water compared to dumping cooled water down the drain.

The water savings will only be a few ¢'s per day.

The energy lost in running the loop 24/7 is harder to figure.
Here is a link to another system & the author gives energy waste
numbers

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...c/RecircEnergy.......

cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In addition. no one (including ATOH) ever mentions the cost of running
power for the pump.

On the ATOH episode in question, there was clearly a brand new
receptacle shown inside the vanity where the pump was placed.

Depending on the current electrical situation and homeowner's skill
level, the installation of the receptacle could add significant cost
(percentage wise and payback wise) to the installation.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's a good point. I guess in some cases you could
manage to get the pump cord to a nearby outlet without
it looking like hell. But as you say, in the ones I've seen
installed, they always seem to have that receptacle right
there in the vanity. Another problem could be if you don't
have a vanity, ie pedestal sinks.

On Feb 15, 1:54*pm, "
wrote:
On Feb 15, 11:20*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Feb 15, 9:57*am, "
wrote:

On Feb 15, 12:27*am, DD_BobK wrote:

On Feb 14, 4:25*pm, mcp6453 wrote:

The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are about $400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

Cheaper but similar

http://www.chilipepperapp.com/cwrcs.htm

the savings on the Taco system presented as

an average of $180.00-225.00 per year on bills for gas type water
heaters
and *$500.00-625.00 per year for electric water heaters.

What parameters was that based on? *Like RBM said,
I think those are just nuts. *First, if you're comparing
using a push button type pump with no pump at all,
the savings in gas is minimal.

With no pump, you have to heat enough incoming cold
water to replace the water that is in the hot water pipe
between the water heater and the point of use. *That's
not a lot of water.
With a pump, you have to heat enough returned water
to replace the water that is in the hot water pipe.
So, the difference is in heating a gallon or two of water
either from about 45F or about 65F. *The other small
savings would be in the cost of the gallon or two of
water that goes down the drain.

My whole gas bill in summer, which is just for
the water heater, *is only $17 or so.

If you're comparing a push button system to one that
already has a pump and keeps it circulating 24/7,
then it would be more substantial, but still, those
numbers are hard to believe.

The biggest drawback to these systems, which I bet
TOH never mentioned, is that unless you install a
seperate return line from the points of use back to
the water heater, the stale, tepid water is going back
into the cold water line. *There it will be available for
anyone who draws a glass of what they think is cold
fresh water. *That person could be at the point-of-use
where the pump is or anywhere else along the path
of the cold water pipe going back to the water heater.
Meaning if you're drawing a pitcher of water to mix
the kids some Koolaide in the kitchen, you could be
in for a surprise. *Before installing one, I'd analyze
what else is on the cold water line and figure out
hot to install a new line if necessary,.

This demand (push button) system will save energy over a continuously
circulating hot water loop.
It will save water compared to dumping cooled water down the drain.

The water savings will only be a few ¢'s per day.

The energy lost in running the loop 24/7 is harder to figure.
Here is a link to another system & the author gives energy waste
numbers

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...c/RecircEnergy......

cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In addition. no one (including ATOH) ever mentions the cost of running
power for the pump.

On the ATOH episode in question, there was clearly a brand new
receptacle shown inside the vanity where the pump was placed.

Depending on the current electrical situation and homeowner's skill
level, the installation of the receptacle could add significant cost
(percentage wise and payback wise) to the installation.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's a good point. *I guess in some cases you could
manage to get the pump cord to a nearby outlet without
it looking like hell. *But as you say, in the ones I've seen
installed, they always seem to have that receptacle right
there in the vanity. * Another problem could be if you don't
have a vanity, ie pedestal sinks.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was going to mention pedestal sinks (since I have one) but I chose
not to.

That adds another level of complexity since you now need to figure out
where to put the pump (in a closet? in the basement?) and then figure
out how to plumb it so that it turns off when hot water is at the sink
(not just at the pump) and run the wires for the push button or hope
the remote (Honey, where is the remote for the sink?) can turn it on
and...and...and.

"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt MPG @
230??

Could be. I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. Factor in the cost of the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity) and the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt MPG @
230??

Could be. I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. Factor in the cost of the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity) and the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

don't confuse efficient with efficacious

"Malcom "Mal" Reynolds" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to
say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are
about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was
never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're
ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would
be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if
they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt MPG
@
230??

Could be. I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. Factor in the cost of
the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity) and
the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at
least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

don't confuse efficient with efficacious

Actually, now that I think about it, having to push a button to call for hot
water is an extra step. If you just turn on the tap when you enter the
room, you're done. No button pushing, no mechanical pump to wear out or
consume electricity. The tap's turned on already. As someone else noted,
the "idling" heat of a pump loop helps heat the house in winter, and that
make it harder to calculate its true benefit. I still don't know what the
real numbers are concerning lifetime operating costs. I suppose it comes
down to how many seconds you're willing to wait to have hot water, how long
the run is to the water heater, how much clanging the pipe make at 3AM when
you're washing your hands, etc. I can't really see it saving any money.
They must do something because so many people install them. But then again
people buy billions of dollars of worthless diet supplements . . .

I'm seeing more and more preposterous claims on ads lately, as in the Honda
MPG ratings that they've been sued for inflating. It's always a good idea
to examine them fully and try to confirm where the real numbers are.
Wireless doorbells, for instance, seem to have a multiplier of at least 2X
when it comes to stating their range. (-: Battery life is another
statistic inflated to almost meaninglessness.

--
Bobby G.

On Feb 16, 5:59*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"Malcom "Mal" Reynolds" wrote in ...





In article ,
*"Robert Green" wrote:

"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to
say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are
about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was
never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're
ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would
be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if
they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt MPG
@
230??

Could be. *I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. *Factor in the cost of
the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity) and
the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at
least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

don't confuse efficient with efficacious

Actually, now that I think about it, having to push a button to call for hot
water is an extra step. *If you just turn on the tap when you enter the
room, you're done. *No button pushing, no mechanical pump to wear out or
consume electricity. *The tap's turned on already. *As someone else noted,
the "idling" heat of a pump loop helps heat the house in winter, and that
make it harder to calculate its true benefit. *I still don't know what the
real numbers are concerning lifetime operating costs. *I suppose it comes
down to how many seconds you're willing to wait to have hot water, how long
the run is to the water heater, how much clanging the pipe make at 3AM when
you're washing your hands, etc. *I can't really see it saving any money..
They must do something because so many people install them.

What they do and why people install them is they
can eliminate waiting for hot water to arrive at
a point-of-use that's a long distance from a water
heater. It's a solution to a large house where the
water heater is in the basement at one end and
you have a bathroom on the second floor at the
other end.

I agree that any cost savings in energy and water
are likely to be small and could easily be exceeded
by the cost of the pump, installation, etc.

On 2/16/2012 8:30 AM, wrote:
On Feb 16, 5:59 am, "Robert wrote:
"Malcom "Mal" wrote in ...





In ,
"Robert wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to
say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are
about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was
never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're
ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would
be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if
they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt MPG
@
230??

Could be. I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. Factor in the cost of
the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity) and
the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at
least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

don't confuse efficient with efficacious

Actually, now that I think about it, having to push a button to call for hot
water is an extra step. If you just turn on the tap when you enter the
room, you're done. No button pushing, no mechanical pump to wear out or
consume electricity. The tap's turned on already. As someone else noted,
the "idling" heat of a pump loop helps heat the house in winter, and that
make it harder to calculate its true benefit. I still don't know what the
real numbers are concerning lifetime operating costs. I suppose it comes
down to how many seconds you're willing to wait to have hot water, how long
the run is to the water heater, how much clanging the pipe make at 3AM when
you're washing your hands, etc. I can't really see it saving any money.
They must do something because so many people install them.

What they do and why people install them is they
can eliminate waiting for hot water to arrive at
a point-of-use that's a long distance from a water
heater. It's a solution to a large house where the
water heater is in the basement at one end and
you have a bathroom on the second floor at the
other end.

I agree that any cost savings in energy and water
are likely to be small and could easily be exceeded
by the cost of the pump, installation, etc.





a passive gravity system will do the same silently and transparently.
And the only cost is the extra tubing from that point back to the
heater. It's such a duh solution, I can't believe EVERY house doesn't
have it.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Feb 16, 10:05*am, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/16/2012 8:30 AM, wrote:





On Feb 16, 5:59 am, "Robert *wrote:
"Malcom "Mal" *wrote in ...

In ,
* "Robert *wrote:

*wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to
say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are
about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was
never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're
ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would
be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if
they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt MPG
@
230??

Could be. *I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. *Factor in the cost of
the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity) and
the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at
least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

don't confuse efficient with efficacious

Actually, now that I think about it, having to push a button to call for hot
water is an extra step. *If you just turn on the tap when you enter the
room, you're done. *No button pushing, no mechanical pump to wear out or
consume electricity. *The tap's turned on already. *As someone else noted,
the "idling" heat of a pump loop helps heat the house in winter, and that
make it harder to calculate its true benefit. *I still don't know what the
real numbers are concerning lifetime operating costs. *I suppose it comes
down to how many seconds you're willing to wait to have hot water, how long
the run is to the water heater, how much clanging the pipe make at 3AM when
you're washing your hands, etc. *I can't really see it saving any money.
They must do something because so many people install them.

What they do and why people install them is they
can eliminate waiting for hot water to arrive at
a point-of-use that's a long distance from a water
heater. *It's a solution to a large house where the
water heater is in the basement at one end and
you have a bathroom on the second floor at the
other end.

I agree that any cost savings in energy and water
are likely to be small and could easily be exceeded
by the cost of the pump, installation, etc.

a passive gravity system will do the same silently and transparently.
And the only cost is the extra tubing from that point back to the
heater. *It's such a duh solution, I can't believe EVERY house doesn't
have it.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The difference though is that a passive system is
losing heat through those pipes 24/7 whether water
is being used or not. How much that amounts to
I don't know. If they were well insulated it might
not amount to much and could be a good system.

On 2/16/2012 9:12 AM, wrote:
On Feb 16, 10:05 am, Steve wrote:
On 2/16/2012 8:30 AM, wrote:





On Feb 16, 5:59 am, "Robert wrote:
"Malcom "Mal" wrote in ...

In ,
"Robert wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to
say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are
about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was
never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're
ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would
be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if
they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt MPG
@
230??

Could be. I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. Factor in the cost of
the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity) and
the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at
least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

don't confuse efficient with efficacious

Actually, now that I think about it, having to push a button to call for hot
water is an extra step. If you just turn on the tap when you enter the
room, you're done. No button pushing, no mechanical pump to wear out or
consume electricity. The tap's turned on already. As someone else noted,
the "idling" heat of a pump loop helps heat the house in winter, and that
make it harder to calculate its true benefit. I still don't know what the
real numbers are concerning lifetime operating costs. I suppose it comes
down to how many seconds you're willing to wait to have hot water, how long
the run is to the water heater, how much clanging the pipe make at 3AM when
you're washing your hands, etc. I can't really see it saving any money.
They must do something because so many people install them.

What they do and why people install them is they
can eliminate waiting for hot water to arrive at
a point-of-use that's a long distance from a water
heater. It's a solution to a large house where the
water heater is in the basement at one end and
you have a bathroom on the second floor at the
other end.

I agree that any cost savings in energy and water
are likely to be small and could easily be exceeded
by the cost of the pump, installation, etc.

a passive gravity system will do the same silently and transparently.
And the only cost is the extra tubing from that point back to the
heater. It's such a duh solution, I can't believe EVERY house doesn't
have it.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The difference though is that a passive system is
losing heat through those pipes 24/7 whether water
is being used or not. How much that amounts to
I don't know. If they were well insulated it might
not amount to much and could be a good system.

It's such a miniscule amount. I doubt a person would see a difference
in the gas bill. I mean we all could do without air conditioning also,
but most people don't.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/16/2012 8:05 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/16/2012 8:30 AM, wrote:
On Feb 16, 5:59 am, "Robert wrote:
"Malcom "Mal" wrote in
...





In ,
"Robert wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to
say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are
about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was
never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're
ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would
be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if
they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt MPG
@
230??

Could be. I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a
bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. Factor in the
cost of
the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity)
and
the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at
least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

don't confuse efficient with efficacious

Actually, now that I think about it, having to push a button to call
for hot
water is an extra step. If you just turn on the tap when you enter the
room, you're done. No button pushing, no mechanical pump to wear out or
consume electricity. The tap's turned on already. As someone else noted,
the "idling" heat of a pump loop helps heat the house in winter, and
that
make it harder to calculate its true benefit. I still don't know what
the
real numbers are concerning lifetime operating costs. I suppose it comes
down to how many seconds you're willing to wait to have hot water,
how long
the run is to the water heater, how much clanging the pipe make at
3AM when
you're washing your hands, etc. I can't really see it saving any money.
They must do something because so many people install them.

What they do and why people install them is they
can eliminate waiting for hot water to arrive at
a point-of-use that's a long distance from a water
heater. It's a solution to a large house where the
water heater is in the basement at one end and
you have a bathroom on the second floor at the
other end.

I agree that any cost savings in energy and water
are likely to be small and could easily be exceeded
by the cost of the pump, installation, etc.





a passive gravity system will do the same silently and transparently.
And the only cost is the extra tubing from that point back to the
heater. It's such a duh solution, I can't believe EVERY house doesn't
have it.


how many houses are single level?

On 2/16/2012 9:46 AM, chaniarts wrote:
On 2/16/2012 8:05 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/16/2012 8:30 AM, wrote:
On Feb 16, 5:59 am, "Robert wrote:
"Malcom "Mal" wrote in
...





In ,
"Robert wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to
say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are
about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was
never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're
ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device
would
be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if
they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt
MPG
@
230??

Could be. I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a
bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. Factor in the
cost of
the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity)
and
the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at
least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

don't confuse efficient with efficacious

Actually, now that I think about it, having to push a button to call
for hot
water is an extra step. If you just turn on the tap when you enter the
room, you're done. No button pushing, no mechanical pump to wear out or
consume electricity. The tap's turned on already. As someone else
noted,
the "idling" heat of a pump loop helps heat the house in winter, and
that
make it harder to calculate its true benefit. I still don't know what
the
real numbers are concerning lifetime operating costs. I suppose it
comes
down to how many seconds you're willing to wait to have hot water,
how long
the run is to the water heater, how much clanging the pipe make at
3AM when
you're washing your hands, etc. I can't really see it saving any money.
They must do something because so many people install them.

What they do and why people install them is they
can eliminate waiting for hot water to arrive at
a point-of-use that's a long distance from a water
heater. It's a solution to a large house where the
water heater is in the basement at one end and
you have a bathroom on the second floor at the
other end.

I agree that any cost savings in energy and water
are likely to be small and could easily be exceeded
by the cost of the pump, installation, etc.





a passive gravity system will do the same silently and transparently.
And the only cost is the extra tubing from that point back to the
heater. It's such a duh solution, I can't believe EVERY house doesn't
have it.


how many houses are single level?


i suppose more than i might imagine. We're so used to houses having
basements, it seems like a foolish thing to build one without.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:61f0e94a-846d-464c-9eba-wrote:

In addition. no one (including ATOH) ever mentions the cost of running
power for the pump.

I did! But now I realize efficiency is only a cover. It's all about
patience - or the lack thereof.

On the ATOH episode in question, there was clearly a brand new
receptacle shown inside the vanity where the pump was placed.

Good catch. A new outlet could add quite a bit to the overall cost of
operation.

I'm guessing they're trying to sell these as a "green" item when they're
really a "lack of patience" item. (-: They know most people would rather
think of themselves as green rather than impatient.

--
Bobby G.

Steve Barker wrote in
news
a passive gravity system will do the same silently and transparently.
And the only cost is the extra tubing from that point back to the
heater. It's such a duh solution, I can't believe EVERY house doesn't
have it.

Not a really good solution if you have an instant hot water system.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 2/16/2012 1:34 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:61f0e94a-846d-464c-9eba-wrote:

In addition. no one (including ATOH) ever mentions the cost of running
power for the pump.

I did! But now I realize efficiency is only a cover. It's all about
patience - or the lack thereof.

On the ATOH episode in question, there was clearly a brand new
receptacle shown inside the vanity where the pump was placed.

Good catch. A new outlet could add quite a bit to the overall cost of
operation.

I'm guessing they're trying to sell these as a "green" item when they're
really a "lack of patience" item. (-: They know most people would rather
think of themselves as green rather than impatient.

My interest is convenience. This thread has been very helpful. Now my question
is, does anyone know of a very small, on demand electric hot water heater that
is just large enough for the kitchen faucet?

mcp6453 wrote in
:

My interest is convenience. This thread has been very helpful. Now my
question is, does anyone know of a very small, on demand electric hot
water heater that is just large enough for the kitchen faucet?

Google "under sink water heater"

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 2/16/2012 4:19 PM, Han wrote:
mcp6453 wrote in
:

My interest is convenience. This thread has been very helpful. Now my
question is, does anyone know of a very small, on demand electric hot
water heater that is just large enough for the kitchen faucet?

Google "under sink water heater"


Unfortunately Google will not tell me whether an under sink water heater that I
find has been personally used and is recommended by anyone in this group. Many
people here are highly qualified to evaluate and recommend this sort of
appliance, which is why most of the people here are so helpful.

On 2/16/2012 1:53 PM, Han wrote:
Steve wrote in
news
a passive gravity system will do the same silently and transparently.
And the only cost is the extra tubing from that point back to the
heater. It's such a duh solution, I can't believe EVERY house doesn't
have it.

Not a really good solution if you have an instant hot water system.


??????????????

Well anyone who has those needs to have their head examined anyway.
What a waste of dollars for luke warm water.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 09:25:39 -0600, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 2/16/2012 9:12 AM, wrote:
On Feb 16, 10:05 am, Steve wrote:
On 2/16/2012 8:30 AM, wrote:





On Feb 16, 5:59 am, "Robert wrote:
"Malcom "Mal" wrote in ...

In ,
"Robert wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to
say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are
about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was
never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're
ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would
be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if
they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt MPG
@
230??

Could be. I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. Factor in the cost of
the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity) and
the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at
least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

don't confuse efficient with efficacious

Actually, now that I think about it, having to push a button to call for hot
water is an extra step. If you just turn on the tap when you enter the
room, you're done. No button pushing, no mechanical pump to wear out or
consume electricity. The tap's turned on already. As someone else noted,
the "idling" heat of a pump loop helps heat the house in winter, and that
make it harder to calculate its true benefit. I still don't know what the
real numbers are concerning lifetime operating costs. I suppose it comes
down to how many seconds you're willing to wait to have hot water, how long
the run is to the water heater, how much clanging the pipe make at 3AM when
you're washing your hands, etc. I can't really see it saving any money.
They must do something because so many people install them.

What they do and why people install them is they
can eliminate waiting for hot water to arrive at
a point-of-use that's a long distance from a water
heater. It's a solution to a large house where the
water heater is in the basement at one end and
you have a bathroom on the second floor at the
other end.

I agree that any cost savings in energy and water
are likely to be small and could easily be exceeded
by the cost of the pump, installation, etc.

a passive gravity system will do the same silently and transparently.
And the only cost is the extra tubing from that point back to the
heater. It's such a duh solution, I can't believe EVERY house doesn't
have it.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The difference though is that a passive system is
losing heat through those pipes 24/7 whether water
is being used or not. How much that amounts to
I don't know. If they were well insulated it might
not amount to much and could be a good system.

It's such a miniscule amount. I doubt a person would see a difference
in the gas bill. I mean we all could do without air conditioning also,
but most people don't.

Maybe where you live but here it's almost as important as heat. Used more,
anyway.

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:01:19 -0600, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 2/16/2012 9:46 AM, chaniarts wrote:
On 2/16/2012 8:05 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/16/2012 8:30 AM, wrote:
On Feb 16, 5:59 am, "Robert wrote:
"Malcom "Mal" wrote in
...





In ,
"Robert wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to
say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are
about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was
never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're
ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device
would
be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if
they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt
MPG
@
230??

Could be. I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a
bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. Factor in the
cost of
the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity)
and
the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at
least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

don't confuse efficient with efficacious

Actually, now that I think about it, having to push a button to call
for hot
water is an extra step. If you just turn on the tap when you enter the
room, you're done. No button pushing, no mechanical pump to wear out or
consume electricity. The tap's turned on already. As someone else
noted,
the "idling" heat of a pump loop helps heat the house in winter, and
that
make it harder to calculate its true benefit. I still don't know what
the
real numbers are concerning lifetime operating costs. I suppose it
comes
down to how many seconds you're willing to wait to have hot water,
how long
the run is to the water heater, how much clanging the pipe make at
3AM when
you're washing your hands, etc. I can't really see it saving any money.
They must do something because so many people install them.

What they do and why people install them is they
can eliminate waiting for hot water to arrive at
a point-of-use that's a long distance from a water
heater. It's a solution to a large house where the
water heater is in the basement at one end and
you have a bathroom on the second floor at the
other end.

I agree that any cost savings in energy and water
are likely to be small and could easily be exceeded
by the cost of the pump, installation, etc.





a passive gravity system will do the same silently and transparently.
And the only cost is the extra tubing from that point back to the
heater. It's such a duh solution, I can't believe EVERY house doesn't
have it.


how many houses are single level?


i suppose more than i might imagine. We're so used to houses having
basements, it seems like a foolish thing to build one without.

Again, you assume every area is the same as yours. Foolish.

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 16:03:03 -0500, mcp6453 wrote:

On 2/16/2012 1:34 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:61f0e94a-846d-464c-9eba-wrote:

In addition. no one (including ATOH) ever mentions the cost of running
power for the pump.

I did! But now I realize efficiency is only a cover. It's all about
patience - or the lack thereof.

On the ATOH episode in question, there was clearly a brand new
receptacle shown inside the vanity where the pump was placed.

Good catch. A new outlet could add quite a bit to the overall cost of
operation.

I'm guessing they're trying to sell these as a "green" item when they're
really a "lack of patience" item. (-: They know most people would rather
think of themselves as green rather than impatient.

My interest is convenience. This thread has been very helpful. Now my question
is, does anyone know of a very small, on demand electric hot water heater that
is just large enough for the kitchen faucet?

I'm sure they're around. Our house had one fifty years ago. It was mounted
to the floor joists (it was about a 14" cube) under the kitchen sink.

On 2/16/2012 6:14 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 09:25:39 -0600, Steve
wrote:

On 2/16/2012 9:12 AM, wrote:
On Feb 16, 10:05 am, Steve wrote:
On 2/16/2012 8:30 AM, wrote:





On Feb 16, 5:59 am, "Robert wrote:
"Malcom "Mal" wrote in ...

In ,
"Robert wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to
say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are
about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was
never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're
ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would
be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if
they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt MPG
@
230??

Could be. I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. Factor in the cost of
the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity) and
the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at
least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

don't confuse efficient with efficacious

Actually, now that I think about it, having to push a button to call for hot
water is an extra step. If you just turn on the tap when you enter the
room, you're done. No button pushing, no mechanical pump to wear out or
consume electricity. The tap's turned on already. As someone else noted,
the "idling" heat of a pump loop helps heat the house in winter, and that
make it harder to calculate its true benefit. I still don't know what the
real numbers are concerning lifetime operating costs. I suppose it comes
down to how many seconds you're willing to wait to have hot water, how long
the run is to the water heater, how much clanging the pipe make at 3AM when
you're washing your hands, etc. I can't really see it saving any money.
They must do something because so many people install them.

What they do and why people install them is they
can eliminate waiting for hot water to arrive at
a point-of-use that's a long distance from a water
heater. It's a solution to a large house where the
water heater is in the basement at one end and
you have a bathroom on the second floor at the
other end.

I agree that any cost savings in energy and water
are likely to be small and could easily be exceeded
by the cost of the pump, installation, etc.

a passive gravity system will do the same silently and transparently.
And the only cost is the extra tubing from that point back to the
heater. It's such a duh solution, I can't believe EVERY house doesn't
have it.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The difference though is that a passive system is
losing heat through those pipes 24/7 whether water
is being used or not. How much that amounts to
I don't know. If they were well insulated it might
not amount to much and could be a good system.

It's such a miniscule amount. I doubt a person would see a difference
in the gas bill. I mean we all could do without air conditioning also,
but most people don't.

Maybe where you live but here it's almost as important as heat. Used more,
anyway.

Still not critical for life. Remember? AC is about 70 years old.
People were around a long longer.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/16/2012 6:15 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:01:19 -0600, Steve
wrote:

On 2/16/2012 9:46 AM, chaniarts wrote:
On 2/16/2012 8:05 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/16/2012 8:30 AM, wrote:
On Feb 16, 5:59 am, "Robert wrote:
"Malcom "Mal" wrote in
...





In ,
"Robert wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to
say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are
about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was
never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're
ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device
would
be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if
they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt
MPG
@
230??

Could be. I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a
bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. Factor in the
cost of
the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity)
and
the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at
least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

don't confuse efficient with efficacious

Actually, now that I think about it, having to push a button to call
for hot
water is an extra step. If you just turn on the tap when you enter the
room, you're done. No button pushing, no mechanical pump to wear out or
consume electricity. The tap's turned on already. As someone else
noted,
the "idling" heat of a pump loop helps heat the house in winter, and
that
make it harder to calculate its true benefit. I still don't know what
the
real numbers are concerning lifetime operating costs. I suppose it
comes
down to how many seconds you're willing to wait to have hot water,
how long
the run is to the water heater, how much clanging the pipe make at
3AM when
you're washing your hands, etc. I can't really see it saving any money.
They must do something because so many people install them.

What they do and why people install them is they
can eliminate waiting for hot water to arrive at
a point-of-use that's a long distance from a water
heater. It's a solution to a large house where the
water heater is in the basement at one end and
you have a bathroom on the second floor at the
other end.

I agree that any cost savings in energy and water
are likely to be small and could easily be exceeded
by the cost of the pump, installation, etc.





a passive gravity system will do the same silently and transparently.
And the only cost is the extra tubing from that point back to the
heater. It's such a duh solution, I can't believe EVERY house doesn't
have it.


how many houses are single level?


i suppose more than i might imagine. We're so used to houses having
basements, it seems like a foolish thing to build one without.

Again, you assume every area is the same as yours. Foolish.

Again, foolish to build a house without a basement. Regardless of where
it is.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/16/2012 7:26 PM, Steve Barker wrote:

Again, foolish to build a house without a basement. Regardless of where
it is.


In *most* areas of Florida, only a fool would attempt to dig a basement.

You might start out digging a basement but by noon you'll soon have a
swimming pool. And the following morning you'll have gators in it.

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:25:31 -0600, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 2/16/2012 6:14 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 09:25:39 -0600, Steve
wrote:

On 2/16/2012 9:12 AM, wrote:
On Feb 16, 10:05 am, Steve wrote:
On 2/16/2012 8:30 AM, wrote:





On Feb 16, 5:59 am, "Robert wrote:
"Malcom "Mal" wrote in ...

In ,
"Robert wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to
say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are
about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was
never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're
ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device would
be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if
they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt MPG
@
230??

Could be. I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. Factor in the cost of
the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity) and
the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at
least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

don't confuse efficient with efficacious

Actually, now that I think about it, having to push a button to call for hot
water is an extra step. If you just turn on the tap when you enter the
room, you're done. No button pushing, no mechanical pump to wear out or
consume electricity. The tap's turned on already. As someone else noted,
the "idling" heat of a pump loop helps heat the house in winter, and that
make it harder to calculate its true benefit. I still don't know what the
real numbers are concerning lifetime operating costs. I suppose it comes
down to how many seconds you're willing to wait to have hot water, how long
the run is to the water heater, how much clanging the pipe make at 3AM when
you're washing your hands, etc. I can't really see it saving any money.
They must do something because so many people install them.

What they do and why people install them is they
can eliminate waiting for hot water to arrive at
a point-of-use that's a long distance from a water
heater. It's a solution to a large house where the
water heater is in the basement at one end and
you have a bathroom on the second floor at the
other end.

I agree that any cost savings in energy and water
are likely to be small and could easily be exceeded
by the cost of the pump, installation, etc.

a passive gravity system will do the same silently and transparently.
And the only cost is the extra tubing from that point back to the
heater. It's such a duh solution, I can't believe EVERY house doesn't
have it.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The difference though is that a passive system is
losing heat through those pipes 24/7 whether water
is being used or not. How much that amounts to
I don't know. If they were well insulated it might
not amount to much and could be a good system.

It's such a miniscule amount. I doubt a person would see a difference
in the gas bill. I mean we all could do without air conditioning also,
but most people don't.

Maybe where you live but here it's almost as important as heat. Used more,
anyway.

Still not critical for life. Remember? AC is about 70 years old.
People were around a long longer.

Office jobs weren't. Factory jobs weren't. Productivity wasn't. My total
utility bill last month was $42, including electric heat.

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:26:16 -0600, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 2/16/2012 6:15 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:01:19 -0600, Steve
wrote:

On 2/16/2012 9:46 AM, chaniarts wrote:
On 2/16/2012 8:05 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/16/2012 8:30 AM, wrote:
On Feb 16, 5:59 am, "Robert wrote:
"Malcom "Mal" wrote in
...





In ,
"Robert wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2012 7:25 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The latest episode of "Ask This Old House" showed Rich Trethewey
installing a Taco D'Mand hot water recirculating pump.

http://goo.gl/lq4aw

As usual, the show doesn't give enough information, so it's hard to
say
whether they used the 006 or the 008. In any case, the pumps are
about
$400.

What do you think about these units? Are there cheaper ones? I was
never
in favor of them until I saw that you press a button when you're
ready
to use hot water.

My kitchen is a long way from my hot water heater. This device
would
be
very handy unless it causes diseases or something.

The savings estimate seems high and unrealistic to me. I wonder if
they
use the same formula as the EPA did in calculating the Chevy Volt
MPG
@
230??

Could be. I don't see how pushing a button when you enter a
bathroom is
much different than turning on the hot water tap. Factor in the
cost of
the
pump, the cost of installation, the cost of operation (electricity)
and
the
cost of maintenance and it doesn't seem terribly efficient to me, at
least
at the rate I pay for water v. electricity.

--
Bobby G.

don't confuse efficient with efficacious

Actually, now that I think about it, having to push a button to call
for hot
water is an extra step. If you just turn on the tap when you enter the
room, you're done. No button pushing, no mechanical pump to wear out or
consume electricity. The tap's turned on already. As someone else
noted,
the "idling" heat of a pump loop helps heat the house in winter, and
that
make it harder to calculate its true benefit. I still don't know what
the
real numbers are concerning lifetime operating costs. I suppose it
comes
down to how many seconds you're willing to wait to have hot water,
how long
the run is to the water heater, how much clanging the pipe make at
3AM when
you're washing your hands, etc. I can't really see it saving any money.
They must do something because so many people install them.

What they do and why people install them is they
can eliminate waiting for hot water to arrive at
a point-of-use that's a long distance from a water
heater. It's a solution to a large house where the
water heater is in the basement at one end and
you have a bathroom on the second floor at the
other end.

I agree that any cost savings in energy and water
are likely to be small and could easily be exceeded
by the cost of the pump, installation, etc.





a passive gravity system will do the same silently and transparently.
And the only cost is the extra tubing from that point back to the
heater. It's such a duh solution, I can't believe EVERY house doesn't
have it.


how many houses are single level?


i suppose more than i might imagine. We're so used to houses having
basements, it seems like a foolish thing to build one without.

Again, you assume every area is the same as yours. Foolish.

Again, foolish to build a house without a basement. Regardless of where
it is.

Bull****. It's expensive to impossible in many areas. Unnecessary, too.

Joe wrote in :

On 2/16/2012 7:26 PM, Steve Barker wrote:

Again, foolish to build a house without a basement. Regardless of where
it is.


In *most* areas of Florida, only a fool would attempt to dig a basement.

You might start out digging a basement but by noon you'll soon have a
swimming pool. And the following morning you'll have gators in it.

Basements should be waterproof, like "reverse" swimmingpools. I'm told
they are in Holland, where the groundwater level is often as high as in
Jersey. But basements here can flood very easily ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Steve Barker wrote in
:

On 2/16/2012 1:53 PM, Han wrote:
Steve wrote in
news
a passive gravity system will do the same silently and
transparently. And the only cost is the extra tubing from that point
back to the heater. It's such a duh solution, I can't believe EVERY
house doesn't have it.

Not a really good solution if you have an instant hot water system.


??????????????

Well anyone who has those needs to have their head examined anyway.
What a waste of dollars for luke warm water.

You're barking up the wrong tree. Instant hot water systems can be very
energy efficient.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

mcp6453 wrote:

My interest is convenience. This thread has been very helpful. Now my question
is, does anyone know of a very small, on demand electric hot water heater that
is just large enough for the kitchen faucet?

Does it halve to be on demand?

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ARI...Y89?Pid=search


Or, assuming you have 240 under your sink:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/EEM...396?Pid=search