I saw this hot water recirculating device at costco. It reduces (eliminates)
the time for hot water to travel to distance faucets by circulating the hot
water.

http://www.wattspremier.com/watts/sh...ID=181&CATID=1

It looks like the water sitting in hot water pipe is being pump into the
cold water pipe, which eventually loops back into the hot water heater.

Has anyone installed this, and does it work well? Does it increase the
heating bill significantly?

"peter" wrote in message
news:8Rr3j.17540$Jy1.15667@trndny02...
I saw this hot water recirculating device at costco. It reduces
(eliminates) the time for hot water to travel to distance faucets
by circulating the hot water.

http://www.wattspremier.com/watts/sh...ID=181&CATID=1

It looks like the water sitting in hot water pipe is being pump
into the cold water pipe, which eventually loops back into the hot
water heater.

Has anyone installed this, and does it work well? Does it increase
the heating bill significantly?
When we had our house built in 1996, I specified a hot water
circulation pump. The plumbing was installed as a loop going to
each location in series and then back to the water heater where it
goes back into the water heater. It works wonderfully, taking only
a second or two for hot water at all locations. We have a wall
switch on the pump, and it is normally off unless someone is going
to wash dishes, take a shower, etc (off when not using hot water).

I highly recommend this system, but am not sure it can be installed
in a pre-existing plumbing system since there is no loop.

Bob-tx

On Nov 29, 3:45 am, "Bob" wrote:
"peter" wrote in message

news:[email protected] saw this hot water recirculating device at costco. It reduces
(eliminates) the time for hot water to travel to distance faucets
by circulating the hot water.

http://www.wattspremier.com/watts/sh...User_ID=119881...

It looks like the water sitting in hot water pipe is being pump
into the cold water pipe, which eventually loops back into the hot
water heater.

Has anyone installed this, and does it work well? Does it increase
the heating bill significantly?

When we had our house built in 1996, I specified a hot water
circulation pump. The plumbing was installed as a loop going to
each location in series and then back to the water heater where it
goes back into the water heater. It works wonderfully, taking only
a second or two for hot water at all locations. We have a wall
switch on the pump, and it is normally off unless someone is going
to wash dishes, take a shower, etc (off when not using hot water).

I highly recommend this system, but am not sure it can be installed
in a pre-existing plumbing system since there is no loop.

Bob-tx

Seems an extra expense for no gain. You are paying to dump cold water
back into the heater to be reheated. That has to cost more than the
same water put down the drain. Then having to turn on the pump and
wait comes to the same thing as just turning ont the water and waiting
for it to get hot.

Leavign the pump on would increase the cost as you would be constantly
reheating the same water.

Harry K

"Harry K" wrote in message
news:9d302c20-3ef1-48b4-93e3-
When we had our house built in 1996, I specified a hot water
circulation pump. The plumbing was installed as a loop going to
each location in series and then back to the water heater where it
goes back into the water heater. It works wonderfully, taking only
a second or two for hot water at all locations. We have a wall
switch on the pump, and it is normally off unless someone is going
to wash dishes, take a shower, etc (off when not using hot water).

I highly recommend this system, but am not sure it can be installed
in a pre-existing plumbing system since there is no loop.

Bob-tx

Seems an extra expense for no gain. You are paying to dump cold water
back into the heater to be reheated. That has to cost more than the
same water put down the drain. Then having to turn on the pump and
wait comes to the same thing as just turning ont the water and waiting
for it to get hot.

Leavign the pump on would increase the cost as you would be constantly
reheating the same water.

You think it would cost less to buy new water and heat it from near freezing
than to re-heat room temp water? Somehow, I can't agree.

Bob

I added a loop to my hot water supply line, but didn't need a pump since
my bathroom is on the second floor, and gravity does all the work; I did
put in a check valve to prevent backflow into the return line.

You save a lot on water and time, but you spend a little more on
whatever you use to heat your hot water. I don't lose that much, since
I live where we have winters, and the return line functions somewhat
like an extra radiator. My loss is during the few months in summer when
we have the air conditioning on, but the extra heat isn't worth whatever
it would take to shut it off for three months.

peter wrote:
I saw this hot water recirculating device at costco. It reduces (eliminates)
the time for hot water to travel to distance faucets by circulating the hot
water.

http://www.wattspremier.com/watts/sh...ID=181&CATID=1

It looks like the water sitting in hot water pipe is being pump into the
cold water pipe, which eventually loops back into the hot water heater.

Has anyone installed this, and does it work well? Does it increase the
heating bill significantly?

Bob F wrote:

"Harry K" wrote in message
news:9d302c20-3ef1-48b4-93e3-

....
Seems an extra expense for no gain. You are paying to dump cold water
back into the heater to be reheated. That has to cost more than the
same water put down the drain. Then having to turn on the pump and
wait comes to the same thing as just turning ont the water and waiting
for it to get hot.

Leavign the pump on would increase the cost as you would be constantly
reheating the same water.


You think it would cost less to buy new water and heat it from near freezing
than to re-heat room temp water? Somehow, I can't agree.


The two are not easily comparable.
With one you are spending energy only when you initially use hot water.
With the other you are constantly spending energy.
Factors involved in making the comparison include:
incoming water temperature, size and length of water lines,
how well insulated they are and whether they are in conditioned
or unconditioned space, how hot you want the water before you
start using it, etc.

Also, if you don't have a separate return loop, your cold water
in the house will always be warm (or hot) unless you run it for
a while before use (like you used to do for hot water).

Harry K wrote:

... You are paying to dump cold water back into the heater to be reheated.
That has to cost more than the same water put down the drain.

No...

Nick

"M Q" wrote in message
news:CaE3j.26549$XT.23064@trnddc01...
Bob F wrote:

"Harry K" wrote in message
news:9d302c20-3ef1-48b4-93e3-

...
Seems an extra expense for no gain. You are paying to dump cold water
back into the heater to be reheated. That has to cost more than the
same water put down the drain. Then having to turn on the pump and
wait comes to the same thing as just turning ont the water and waiting
for it to get hot.

Leavign the pump on would increase the cost as you would be constantly
reheating the same water.


You think it would cost less to buy new water and heat it from near freezing
than to re-heat room temp water? Somehow, I can't agree.


The two are not easily comparable.
With one you are spending energy only when you initially use hot water.
With the other you are constantly spending energy.

You didn't read the post being sdiscussed here, did you?

Factors involved in making the comparison include:
incoming water temperature, size and length of water lines,
how well insulated they are and whether they are in conditioned
or unconditioned space, how hot you want the water before you
start using it, etc.

Also, if you don't have a separate return loop, your cold water
in the house will always be warm (or hot) unless you run it for
a while before use (like you used to do for hot water).

Again, you didn't read the post.

When we had our house built in 1996, I specified a hot water
circulation pump. The plumbing was installed as a loop going to
each location in series and then back to the water heater where it
goes back into the water heater. It works wonderfully, taking only
a second or two for hot water at all locations. We have a wall
switch on the pump, and it is normally off unless someone is going
to wash dishes, take a shower, etc (off when not using hot water).



Bob

On Nov 29, 2:22 pm, wrote:
Harry K wrote:

... You are paying to dump cold water back into the heater to be reheated.
That has to cost more than the same water put down the drain.

No...

Nick

??? just that. No defense?

Bob does have a point as far as the "turn the pump on only when hot
water is wanted". Probably pretty much a wash as to cost.

If the reciculator runs full time, then you are paying to heat by
whatever amount all the space the pipe runs through 24/7. Yes, even
if the pipes are insulated there is a loss.

Harry K

"Harry K" wrote in message
...
On Nov 29, 2:22 pm, wrote:
Harry K wrote:

... You are paying to dump cold water back into the heater to be
reheated.
That has to cost more than the same water put down the drain.

No...

Nick

??? just that. No defense?

Bob does have a point as far as the "turn the pump on only when hot
water is wanted". Probably pretty much a wash as to cost.

If the reciculator runs full time, then you are paying to heat by
whatever amount all the space the pipe runs through 24/7. Yes, even
if the pipes are insulated there is a loss.

Harry K

except a good portion of that heat goes into the house in most cases, so
isn't a loss per se. if you live in a place that is undergoing a drought,
the savings in water could be offset by the cost of the energy.

On Nov 29, 12:10 am, "peter" wrote:
I saw this hot water recirculating device at costco. It reduces (eliminates)
the time for hot water to travel to distance faucets by circulating the hot
water.

http://www.wattspremier.com/watts/sh...User_ID=119881...

It looks like the water sitting in hot water pipe is being pump into the
cold water pipe, which eventually loops back into the hot water heater.

Has anyone installed this, and does it work well? Does it increase the
heating bill significantly?

Except of course it dumps the sitting water into the cold line *right
at the faucet*, and I see nothing that would ever make this water
"loop back" to the water heater. So unless you draw it immediately
(eg, you're drawing a cold+hot mix) it'll just sit there until someone
draws cold water, in which case they'll be getting this water which
was heated cooled.

I don't think it's a great idea to be drinking water that's been
through the water heater, especially if you've got your water heater
adjusted down to non-scald temperatures.

Now, a loop that goes all the way back to the water heater, different
matter.

Am I the only one who's worried about this? I have seen such things
discussed many times but nobody has flagged this as a concern.

Chip C
Toronto

On Nov 30, 9:36 am, "charlie"
wrote:
"Harry K" wrote in message

...





On Nov 29, 2:22 pm, wrote:
Harry K wrote:

... You are paying to dump cold water back into the heater to be
reheated.
That has to cost more than the same water put down the drain.

No...

Nick

??? just that. No defense?

Bob does have a point as far as the "turn the pump on only when hot
water is wanted". Probably pretty much a wash as to cost.

If the reciculator runs full time, then you are paying to heat by
whatever amount all the space the pipe runs through 24/7. Yes, even
if the pipes are insulated there is a loss.

Harry K

except a good portion of that heat goes into the house in most cases, so
isn't a loss per se. if you live in a place that is undergoing a drought,
the savings in water could be offset by the cost of the energy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Soem what of a point if you are talking a house on slab construction.
If it has a basement, most plumbing will be in the basement. Mine
certainly is. The only piping in the heated living area is the risers
from the basement straight up to the fixtures. Even there they are
inside the walls in most cases.

Harry K

On Dec 1, 10:05 am, "Old_Boat" wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message

...





"peter" wrote in message
news:8Rr3j.17540$Jy1.15667@trndny02...
I saw this hot water recirculating device at costco. It reduces
(eliminates) the time for hot water to travel to distance faucets by
circulating the hot water.

http://www.wattspremier.com/watts/sh...User_ID=119881...

It looks like the water sitting in hot water pipe is being pump into the
cold water pipe, which eventually loops back into the hot water heater.

Has anyone installed this, and does it work well? Does it increase the
heating bill significantly?
When we had our house built in 1996, I specified a hot water circulation
pump. The plumbing was installed as a loop going to each location in
series and then back to the water heater where it goes back into the water
heater. It works wonderfully, taking only a second or two for hot water
at all locations. We have a wall switch on the pump, and it is normally
off unless someone is going to wash dishes, take a shower, etc (off when
not using hot water).

I highly recommend this system, but am not sure it can be installed in a
pre-existing plumbing system since there is no loop.

Bob-tx

I have a similar system that is called an autocirc2. It does work. This
system has a time that you can set so that the pump only runs when you need
it. You can set the timer in 1/2 hour increments. However, I have found that
the cold water is indeed warm when you use it, but it is no big deal. The
big benefit I see is that if you are on a septic system, it will reduce the
amount of water you run to get the hot water.

With any decent functioning sepic system, I don't see this as an
issue. Putting a bit more clean water into it doesn't affect it's
longevity or functioning.






My farthest faucet is about
100 feet from the water heater and running the water to get the hot without
it was significant. It is also a great convenience to not have to wait.



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Dec 1, 11:32 am, "Old_Boat" wrote:
wrote in message

...



On Dec 1, 10:05 am, "Old_Boat" wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message

...

"peter" wrote in message
news:8Rr3j.17540$Jy1.15667@trndny02...
I saw this hot water recirculating device at costco. It reduces
(eliminates) the time for hot water to travel to distance faucets by
circulating the hot water.

http://www.wattspremier.com/watts/sh...User_ID=119881...

It looks like the water sitting in hot water pipe is being pump into
the
cold water pipe, which eventually loops back into the hot water
heater.

Has anyone installed this, and does it work well? Does it increase the
heating bill significantly?
When we had our house built in 1996, I specified a hot water
circulation
pump. The plumbing was installed as a loop going to each location in
series and then back to the water heater where it goes back into the
water
heater. It works wonderfully, taking only a second or two for hot
water
at all locations. We have a wall switch on the pump, and it is
normally
off unless someone is going to wash dishes, take a shower, etc (off
when
not using hot water).

I highly recommend this system, but am not sure it can be installed in
a
pre-existing plumbing system since there is no loop.

Bob-tx

I have a similar system that is called an autocirc2. It does work. This
system has a time that you can set so that the pump only runs when you
need
it. You can set the timer in 1/2 hour increments. However, I have found
that
the cold water is indeed warm when you use it, but it is no big deal.
The
big benefit I see is that if you are on a septic system, it will reduce
the
amount of water you run to get the hot water.

With any decent functioning sepic system, I don't see this as an
issue. Putting a bit more clean water into it doesn't affect it's
longevity or functioning.

True in the shor term, however,according to the experts at a seminar about
the new septic rules that are being adopted in Ohio, the experts from The
Ohio State University, stated emphatically that to prolong the life
expectancy of a leach feild, the least water you put into the system will
prolong its lifespan. .

Larry



Are you sure they were talking specifically about additonal small
amounts of CLEAN fresh water? Or were they talking about amounts of
WASTE water in general? The latter I can see. But I don't see a
process by which sending some additonal water into the leach field
from running some additonal tap water is going to cause a shortened
lifespan.









My farthest faucet is about
100 feet from the water heater and running the water to get the hot
without
it was significant. It is also a great convenience to not have to wait.

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

wrote:

On Dec 1, 11:32 am, "Old_Boat" wrote:



True in the shor term, however,according to the experts at a seminar about
the new septic rules that are being adopted in Ohio, the experts from The
Ohio State University, stated emphatically that to prolong the life
expectancy of a leach feild, the least water you put into the system will
prolong its lifespan. .

Larry




Are you sure they were talking specifically about additonal small
amounts of CLEAN fresh water? Or were they talking about amounts of
WASTE water in general? The latter I can see. But I don't see a
process by which sending some additonal water into the leach field
from running some additonal tap water is going to cause a shortened
lifespan.


Yes, clean water, too.
Simply, the less water you put through the system, the more time
the waste spends breaking down in the septic tank.

Once broken down, insoluble materials are left in the septic tank
(either sinking to the bottom, or floating to the top) and only
water with soluble materials or very small particles makes it
to the leach field where it can actually leach deep into the soil.
Eventually those insoluble materials are pumped out of the tank.

Too high a flow rate, and the undecomposed waste gets flushed into
the leach field, where it will also decompose. But now you can't get
rid of the insoluble stuff, and it will eventually plug up the leach field.

"Old_Boat" wrote:

Yes they said to minimize any type of water, the theory being that it
dilutes the good bacteria in the leach field, thus making it more
susceptible to clogging and failure.

That's an interesting theory, but it isn't supported by facts. The bacterial
action you are interested in occurs in the tank, not the leach field. Older
single tank systems use anerobic (no oxygen) bacteria to break down the solids,
newer multi tank systems use anerobic and aerobic (oxygenated) bacteria.

As long as you aren't stressing your system by pushing more water through it in
a given period of time than it's designed to handle, there shouldn't be any
problem.

Where people get into trouble is overloading their system (guests, large amount
of washing, using large amounts of antibacterial cleaners, etc), that either
kill the bacteria in the tank or forces the effluent out into the field before
it's had a chance to settle. That plugs up the field sooner than it should.

They said that this is why on the new
systems there are diverter boxes on leach fields so water can be diverted to
one or the other every other year or so to give the leach field time to
recover.

Eventually all leach fields fail - they are nothing more than a filter. Double
fields are nice if the lot size permits, but resting works the opposite way you
described. It allows the bacterial mat that builds up in the field over time to
die off and break down so that when the field is used again, the water can perc
through the soil. I haven't seen what the recommended time is, but a year
strikes me as too short for the mat to break down. Usually you see people run
with the first field until it plugs up (which should be 10-20+ years) then
switch over to the other field.

--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars