Sadly, I had to attend the funeral of an elderly family member over the
weekend. There is a house involved that will have to be sold soon as
none of the descendants live in the area, and the "old farmhouse" was
sold years ago, this is just a house in which she was living.

In discussion with other family members (who have had a few days more
than I to work on getting this moving,) I was told that "FHA would
require" the fusebox to be replaced with a breaker box to qualify for a
loan. True? This just doesn't seem right to me.

More importantly visual inspection red-flagged the receptacles to me as
those old 2-prong T-slot ones, and I mentioned that to the other family
member (executor of will/estate/etc) then ran down to fusebox again to
investigate wiring. Here's what I eventually found.

- all wiring that appears to be original to the house is cloth covered
NM type cables, appear to be in excellent shape.

- Every single cable that was oriented so that I could read the printing
on it was marked "With Ground." Hmmm...

- pulled out a recep in the living room and I found a very nicely
installed single gang box, two cables coming into it, and yes they were
grounded! The two ground wires from the cables were spliced to a
pigtail which was screwed to the metal box. The recep of course was
ungrounded.

- here's the kicker; that splice was *soldered.*

- and yes, the wiring is COPPER not aluminum thankfully!

- so to summarize, the wiring, other than not being 90C temp rated,
appears functionally identical to what would be installed today, with
the exception that the receps are obsolete.

So, I ASSume that what I should do, in the interest of inexpensively
removing what would be a red flag to a buyer, is to just go to the
supply house, buy a couple contractor packs of good duplex receps and
some green 14 (or a box of greenies,) and roll through and replace all
the receps in the house with new 3-prong ones. Question is, what would
be the best way to splice to that soldered connection? I'm a little
concerned with the idea of just slapping a greenie on top of possibly 60
year old solder. Should I twist a new pigtail into the bundle and add
some solder? Or am I all concerned about nothing and the wire nut of
the greenie will bite through the solder acceptably? If I should
solder, what wattage iron did a typical electrician use back in the day?
I'm assuming this is going to be typical of 20-30 boxes throughout the
house so I am trying to plan my moves so that I can roll through there
in a day.

I probably will bring some GFCIs as well and put them in the kitchen and
bath as I don't believe that anything was ever updated, ever.

I don't know exactly when the house was built, but I am assuming
sometime in the 50's by the kitchen cabinets and countertop (which I love.)

Another interesting feature of the house is that the light switches are
all pushbuttons. I think there was a thread on these a while back where
I mentioned this very house, as I've never seen them elsewhere. Like this:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/68... ndard_switch

but ivory in color, and the button is perfectly rectangular and square
to the wall. When I go back I'll have to pull one out and snap some pics.

Sidebar question - my inclination is to keep the original switches and
plastic cover plates, as IMHO they "fit" the age and decor of the house.
Or do you think it would be better to replace the switches and plates
as well to provide a more "modern" look? I'm concerned with bang for
the buck here and the perceptions of the average buyer. I know that I'm
not average

thanks for any advice/opinions, esp. on how to deal with the solder joints.

nate



--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 02/13/2012 09:02 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
Sadly, I had to attend the funeral of an elderly family member over the
weekend. There is a house involved that will have to be sold soon as
none of the descendants live in the area, and the "old farmhouse" was
sold years ago, this is just a house in which she was living.

In discussion with other family members (who have had a few days more
than I to work on getting this moving,) I was told that "FHA would
require" the fusebox to be replaced with a breaker box to qualify for a
loan. True? This just doesn't seem right to me.

More importantly visual inspection red-flagged the receptacles to me as
those old 2-prong T-slot ones, and I mentioned that to the other family
member (executor of will/estate/etc) then ran down to fusebox again to
investigate wiring. Here's what I eventually found.

- all wiring that appears to be original to the house is cloth covered
NM type cables, appear to be in excellent shape.

- Every single cable that was oriented so that I could read the printing
on it was marked "With Ground." Hmmm...

- pulled out a recep in the living room and I found a very nicely
installed single gang box, two cables coming into it, and yes they were
grounded! The two ground wires from the cables were spliced to a pigtail
which was screwed to the metal box. The recep of course was ungrounded.

- here's the kicker; that splice was *soldered.*

- and yes, the wiring is COPPER not aluminum thankfully!

- so to summarize, the wiring, other than not being 90C temp rated,
appears functionally identical to what would be installed today, with
the exception that the receps are obsolete.

So, I ASSume that what I should do, in the interest of inexpensively
removing what would be a red flag to a buyer, is to just go to the
supply house, buy a couple contractor packs of good duplex receps and
some green 14 (or a box of greenies,) and roll through and replace all
the receps in the house with new 3-prong ones. Question is, what would
be the best way to splice to that soldered connection? I'm a little
concerned with the idea of just slapping a greenie on top of possibly 60
year old solder. Should I twist a new pigtail into the bundle and add
some solder? Or am I all concerned about nothing and the wire nut of the
greenie will bite through the solder acceptably? If I should solder,
what wattage iron did a typical electrician use back in the day? I'm
assuming this is going to be typical of 20-30 boxes throughout the house
so I am trying to plan my moves so that I can roll through there in a day.

I probably will bring some GFCIs as well and put them in the kitchen and
bath as I don't believe that anything was ever updated, ever.

I don't know exactly when the house was built, but I am assuming
sometime in the 50's by the kitchen cabinets and countertop (which I love.)

Another interesting feature of the house is that the light switches are
all pushbuttons. I think there was a thread on these a while back where
I mentioned this very house, as I've never seen them elsewhere. Like this:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/68... ndard_switch


but ivory in color, and the button is perfectly rectangular and square
to the wall. When I go back I'll have to pull one out and snap some pics.

Sidebar question - my inclination is to keep the original switches and
plastic cover plates, as IMHO they "fit" the age and decor of the house.
Or do you think it would be better to replace the switches and plates as
well to provide a more "modern" look? I'm concerned with bang for the
buck here and the perceptions of the average buyer. I know that I'm not
average

thanks for any advice/opinions, esp. on how to deal with the solder joints.

nate



Additional comment: the odd thing is that the last house I personally
owned was several years older, and did not have grounds, but did use
wire nuts everywhere that a splice was required! I guess the guy that
wired this house was just old school.

nate


--
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http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Feb 13, 9:02*am, Nate Nagel wrote:
Sadly, I had to attend the funeral of an elderly family member over the
weekend. *There is a house involved that will have to be sold soon as
none of the descendants live in the area, and the "old farmhouse" was
sold years ago, this is just a house in which she was living.

In discussion with other family members (who have had a few days more
than I to work on getting this moving,) I was told that "FHA would
require" the fusebox to be replaced with a breaker box to qualify for a
loan. *True? *This just doesn't seem right to me.

Don't know about FHA requirements. You could call them.
Also since there are lots of other lenders, what FHA wants
may not be an issue.



More importantly visual inspection red-flagged the receptacles to me as
those old 2-prong T-slot ones, and I mentioned that to the other family
member (executor of will/estate/etc) then ran down to fusebox again to
investigate wiring. *Here's what I eventually found.

- all wiring that appears to be original to the house is cloth covered
NM type cables, appear to be in excellent shape.

- Every single cable that was oriented so that I could read the printing
on it was marked "With Ground." *Hmmm...

- pulled out a recep in the living room and I found a very nicely
installed single gang box, two cables coming into it, and yes they were
grounded! *The two ground wires from the cables were spliced to a
pigtail which was screwed to the metal box. *The recep of course was
ungrounded.

- here's the kicker; that splice was *soldered.*

- and yes, the wiring is COPPER not aluminum thankfully!

- so to summarize, the wiring, other than not being 90C temp rated,
appears functionally identical to what would be installed today, with
the exception that the receps are obsolete.

So, I ASSume that what I should do, in the interest of inexpensively
removing what would be a red flag to a buyer, is to just go to the
supply house, buy a couple contractor packs of good duplex receps and
some green 14 (or a box of greenies,) and roll through and replace all
the receps in the house with new 3-prong ones. *Question is, what would
be the best way to splice to that soldered connection? *I'm a little
concerned with the idea of just slapping a greenie on top of possibly 60
year old solder. *Should I twist a new pigtail into the bundle and add
some solder? *Or am I all concerned about nothing and the wire nut of
the greenie will bite through the solder acceptably? *If I should
solder, what wattage iron did a typical electrician use back in the day?
* I'm assuming this is going to be typical of 20-30 boxes throughout the
house so I am trying to plan my moves so that I can roll through there
in a day.

As long as there is enough wire, I'd just cut off the solder
connection , strip, use wire nuts.




I probably will bring some GFCIs as well and put them in the kitchen and
bath as I don't believe that anything was ever updated, ever.

I don't know exactly when the house was built, but I am assuming
sometime in the 50's by the kitchen cabinets and countertop (which I love..)

Another interesting feature of the house is that the light switches are
all pushbuttons. *I think there was a thread on these a while back where
I mentioned this very house, as I've never seen them elsewhere. *Like this:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/68..._hbl1281_push_...

but ivory in color, and the button is perfectly rectangular and square
to the wall. *When I go back I'll have to pull one out and snap some pics.

Sidebar question - my inclination is to keep the original switches and
plastic cover plates, as IMHO they "fit" the age and decor of the house.
* Or do you think it would be better to replace the switches and plates
as well to provide a more "modern" look? *I'm concerned with bang for
the buck here and the perceptions of the average buyer. *I know that I'm
not average



The link didn't work, so don;t know what they look like. Sounds like
they
could be odd and since you want the least issues possible, for the
cost,
I'd just replace them.



thanks for any advice/opinions, esp. on how to deal with the solder joints.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

In discussion with other family members (who have had a few days more than
I to work on getting this moving,) I was told that "FHA would require" the
fusebox to be replaced with a breaker box to qualify for a loan. True?
This just doesn't seem right to me.

Well, one direct phone call ought to establish this.

In many jurisdictions, the Fire Code is the only reotractive part
of the building code, i.e. property owners may be required to
upgrade (even if the original installation met code requirements
when installed.) This, too, may be answered by one phone
call to the county or municipality (building permits office.)

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

On 2/13/2012 8:02 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
....

In discussion with other family members (who have had a few days more
than I to work on getting this moving,) I was told that "FHA would
require" the fusebox to be replaced with a breaker box to qualify for a
loan. True? This just doesn't seem right to me.

Me, neither. Unless there's some other Code violation a fuse box, on
its own isn't a problem.

....


- pulled out a recep in the living room and I found a very nicely
installed single gang box, two cables coming into it, and yes they were
grounded! The two ground wires from the cables were spliced to a pigtail
which was screwed to the metal box. The recep of course was ungrounded.

- here's the kicker; that splice was *soldered.*

....

be the best way to splice to that soldered connection?...

Just tie pigtails together w/ a wirenut w/ the existing end and then
attach to the grounding screw on the receptacle and the box. No need to
disturb existing solder joint at all. Or, as another poster says, if
you have the length simply cut it off and proceed as if were new
installation--tie all grounds together w/ the two pigtails for the
box/receptacle and attach.

Or, there are (or at least were unless they've been obsoleted)
receptacles that are Code-compliant w/ the connection to the box through
the mounting screw. These have a spring-clip integral to the mounting
flange and a four-sided pressed screw that identify them...they
eliminate the second pigtail to the box.

--

On 02/13/2012 09:56 AM, wrote:
On Feb 13, 9:02 am, Nate wrote:
Sadly, I had to attend the funeral of an elderly family member over the
weekend. There is a house involved that will have to be sold soon as
none of the descendants live in the area, and the "old farmhouse" was
sold years ago, this is just a house in which she was living.

In discussion with other family members (who have had a few days more
than I to work on getting this moving,) I was told that "FHA would
require" the fusebox to be replaced with a breaker box to qualify for a
loan. True? This just doesn't seem right to me.

Don't know about FHA requirements. You could call them.
Also since there are lots of other lenders, what FHA wants
may not be an issue.

True. However, I'm not the executor so I'm not running this show.
There are several fuse boxes and it would be *neater* to replace them
with two breaker panels (one is a subpanel for kitchen and laundry;
wouldn't make sense to incorporate into main panel.) However I'm not
convinced of the necessity to replace; I don't see a safety hazard.

The flip side is that perception is as important as reality when it
comes to selling.

snip

So, I ASSume that what I should do, in the interest of inexpensively
removing what would be a red flag to a buyer, is to just go to the
supply house, buy a couple contractor packs of good duplex receps and
some green 14 (or a box of greenies,) and roll through and replace all
the receps in the house with new 3-prong ones. Question is, what would
be the best way to splice to that soldered connection? I'm a little
concerned with the idea of just slapping a greenie on top of possibly 60
year old solder. Should I twist a new pigtail into the bundle and add
some solder? Or am I all concerned about nothing and the wire nut of
the greenie will bite through the solder acceptably? If I should
solder, what wattage iron did a typical electrician use back in the day?
I'm assuming this is going to be typical of 20-30 boxes throughout the
house so I am trying to plan my moves so that I can roll through there
in a day.

As long as there is enough wire, I'd just cut off the solder
connection , strip, use wire nuts.

I only looked at one box, so I dunno. It looked like it might make the
wires too short by code. That's always on the table though.

I did think of another option after I posted, which is what I may do.
Undo the ground screw to the box, snip the loop off that pigtail, wire
nut (orange) a longer pigtail to it, wrap around ground screw and leave
pigtail for recep. That way I don't have to disturb anything original
and I still am not relying on "self grounding" clips for ground
connection to plugged-in equipment. (I guess sometimes you have to
think about things for a bit before the "right" answer comes to you.)


I probably will bring some GFCIs as well and put them in the kitchen and
bath as I don't believe that anything was ever updated, ever.

I don't know exactly when the house was built, but I am assuming
sometime in the 50's by the kitchen cabinets and countertop (which I love.)

Another interesting feature of the house is that the light switches are
all pushbuttons. I think there was a thread on these a while back where
I mentioned this very house, as I've never seen them elsewhere. Like this:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/68..._hbl1281_push_...

but ivory in color, and the button is perfectly rectangular and square
to the wall. When I go back I'll have to pull one out and snap some pics.

Sidebar question - my inclination is to keep the original switches and
plastic cover plates, as IMHO they "fit" the age and decor of the house.
Or do you think it would be better to replace the switches and plates
as well to provide a more "modern" look? I'm concerned with bang for
the buck here and the perceptions of the average buyer. I know that I'm
not average



The link didn't work, so don;t know what they look like. Sounds like
they
could be odd and since you want the least issues possible, for the
cost,
I'd just replace them.

Was supposed to be a "Hubbell Presswitch" - not sure why it didn't work.
I'm kind of on the fence. Some buyers may appreciate the originality
and untouched nature of things. Some may want to roll through and
replace everything with Decora. Who can say?

I do know that everything works in the house - my cousin and I (as well
as my nephew, but being three, he's not going to be asked to fix
anything G) visited the late inhabitant just a few months ago while I
was in town to actually help cousin with some electrical work at her
place; we weren't asked to look at anything while we were there, and
also some family members have been staying in the house this week and
nothing was mentioned as not working over the weekend. So I'm assuming
that everything is in fact fully functional, I just want to get rid of
the old T-slot receps to remove a red flag to potential buyers, but at
the same time to not do what the PO's of my last house did and do it in
a doglick, unsafe manner. (bootleg grounds = sign of the hack.) I
figure I'll be nice and buy "spec grade" receps as well, since they're
cheaper at the supply house than the horrid builder grade stuff at the
big boxen, and the estate is paying for supplies not YT (although of
course I do have a vested interest in the house selling well.) I just
don't want the estate to be paying an electrician to do this work
because a) it'd be silly when several family members are perfectly
capable of knocking it out in a day and at least I am willing to have a
go at it and b) AFAIK it is perfectly legal in most jurisdictions for a
homeowner to replace receptacles without a permit/inspection, as long as
it's a one for one, and based on my understanding of the code, if I
replace any recep in a grounded box, I *must* use a modern grounding
type recep, no exceptions, so it's all perfectly legit.

nate

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replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 02/13/2012 10:22 AM, dpb wrote:
On 2/13/2012 8:02 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
...

In discussion with other family members (who have had a few days more
than I to work on getting this moving,) I was told that "FHA would
require" the fusebox to be replaced with a breaker box to qualify for a
loan. True? This just doesn't seem right to me.

Me, neither. Unless there's some other Code violation a fuse box, on its
own isn't a problem.

...


- pulled out a recep in the living room and I found a very nicely
installed single gang box, two cables coming into it, and yes they were
grounded! The two ground wires from the cables were spliced to a pigtail
which was screwed to the metal box. The recep of course was ungrounded.

- here's the kicker; that splice was *soldered.*

...

be the best way to splice to that soldered connection?...

Just tie pigtails together w/ a wirenut w/ the existing end and then
attach to the grounding screw on the receptacle and the box. No need to
disturb existing solder joint at all. Or, as another poster says, if you
have the length simply cut it off and proceed as if were new
installation--tie all grounds together w/ the two pigtails for the
box/receptacle and attach.

Or, there are (or at least were unless they've been obsoleted)
receptacles that are Code-compliant w/ the connection to the box through
the mounting screw. These have a spring-clip integral to the mounting
flange and a four-sided pressed screw that identify them...they
eliminate the second pigtail to the box.


Yes, that would be the easiest solution but I don't like them simply
because most people if they replace a recep don't buy the good stuff and
won't know that they need to buy self-grounding. I know this is
overkill for a house that will be in the family for hopefully only
another couple months, but I'd like to have the pigtail there to prevent
issues down the road - I'm kinda anal retentive like that.

As I posted in my last post, I like your first solution, but it didn't
occur to me until after I posted. I think that that is what I will plan
on doing. I should have everything necessary to do it save for the
receps themselves. I did purchase some "spec grade" receps maybe two
years ago and they still have the self-grounding tabs on them, in fact,
I could use the leftovers for this job were they not the wrong color.

Now that I think about it, I'm probably required to buy those new
"tamper resistant" receps though so I probably can't use any of my old
stuff.

nate


--
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On 2/13/2012 9:23 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
....

I did think of another option after I posted, which is what I may do.
Undo the ground screw to the box, snip the loop off that pigtail, wire
nut (orange) a longer pigtail to it, wrap around ground screw and leave
pigtail for recep. That way I don't have to disturb anything original
and I still am not relying on "self grounding" clips for ground
connection to plugged-in equipment. (I guess sometimes you have to think
about things for a bit before the "right" answer comes to you.)

Just posted that in passing altho if use the proper ones the
self-grounding receptacles are Code-compliant, as well. And,
Code-compliant is Code-compliant; just different gear.
....

I'm kind of on the fence. Some buyers may appreciate the originality and
untouched nature of things. Some may want to roll through and replace
everything with Decora. Who can say?
....

IMO it's pointless to try to predict and make such hit 'n miss changes
on the idea of trying to make a difference in a sale. Unless do a major
renovation/uplift, it's highly unlikely you'll recoup the
investment/effort and may, in fact, actually do more to dissuade than
persuade by ending up w/ a mishmash that doesn't fit and suits nobody.

BTW, the 't-slot' receptacle you mention--if you mean a NEMA 5-20R that
has the two parallel slots w/ the one having a perpendicular slot as
well to allow a plug w/ the two prongs at 90 degrees, that is a 20A
receptacle and unless the circuits are 20A circuits that is a violation
to have them on 15A (14 ga wire) circuits. If there are a mix of 15A
and 20A circuits, make certain the receptacles match the capacity correctly.

Check the chart... http://www.nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm

--

On 02/13/2012 10:40 AM, dpb wrote:
On 2/13/2012 9:23 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
...

I did think of another option after I posted, which is what I may do.
Undo the ground screw to the box, snip the loop off that pigtail, wire
nut (orange) a longer pigtail to it, wrap around ground screw and leave
pigtail for recep. That way I don't have to disturb anything original
and I still am not relying on "self grounding" clips for ground
connection to plugged-in equipment. (I guess sometimes you have to think
about things for a bit before the "right" answer comes to you.)

Just posted that in passing altho if use the proper ones the
self-grounding receptacles are Code-compliant, as well. And,
Code-compliant is Code-compliant; just different gear.
...

I'm kind of on the fence. Some buyers may appreciate the originality and
untouched nature of things. Some may want to roll through and replace
everything with Decora. Who can say?
...

IMO it's pointless to try to predict and make such hit 'n miss changes
on the idea of trying to make a difference in a sale. Unless do a major
renovation/uplift, it's highly unlikely you'll recoup the
investment/effort and may, in fact, actually do more to dissuade than
persuade by ending up w/ a mishmash that doesn't fit and suits nobody.

BTW, the 't-slot' receptacle you mention--if you mean a NEMA 5-20R that
has the two parallel slots w/ the one having a perpendicular slot as
well to allow a plug w/ the two prongs at 90 degrees, that is a 20A
receptacle and unless the circuits are 20A circuits that is a violation
to have them on 15A (14 ga wire) circuits. If there are a mix of 15A and
20A circuits, make certain the receptacles match the capacity correctly.

Check the chart... http://www.nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm

--

The receps I am thinking of look similar to the pic in the first post here

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/dont-...g-these-31828/

or the one on the right hand side here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NEMA_5_1_devices2.jpg

I don't know when the last time they were made was, but at least to my
mind a) they're kind of cool in a vintage sort of way and b) they gotta
go because seeing those in a house that I would be considering buying
would be a red flag requiring more investigation.

I'm pretty sure that they're not 20A circuits, although obviously next
time I'm up there I will investigate thoroughly. In any case AFAIK
there's no code issue using a 5-15R on a 20A circuit.

nate

--
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OP should call his local homeowners insurance company and ask the
following.

I am thinking of buying a home, that has fuse boxes. will you provide
NEW insurance coverage......??

in most cases the answer is no. state farm wouldnt insure any new
customers with fuse boxes, K&T wiring. in many cases they send a
inspector before writing a policy. they look for hazards, like cracked
sidewalks, that might cause a trip and fall accident, worn shingles,
trash piled under decks etc etc etc.

homeowners companies want to make a profit.

without homeowners insurance no one can get a mortage..........

and as far as i know soldered joints were never approved for wiring
other than K&T.

so your home may be a money pit, to be sold off cheap

FHA is indeed more picky about homes condition. they want successful
buyers who are able to pay their mortage.

I hope OP keeps this discussion updated as to what happens.

On 02/13/2012 11:00 AM, bob haller wrote:
FHA is indeed more picky about homes condition. they want successful
buyers who are able to pay their mortage.

I hope OP keeps this discussion updated as to what happens.

Hah. Sadly I could probably purchase the house for cash if I wanted to,
but what would I do with a house in that area? Certainly can't get a
job there...

I imagine that what'll end up happening is that I will take a long
weekend and go up there and upgrade all the devices, and then the
executor will hire an electrician to do a new breaker box(es.) I did
call the inspector for that area and no permit required for device
replacement so I'm covered there. I don't really want to get into a
panel replacement, esp. since I live 5 hours' drive away (by Jeep; in a
car I suppose it could be less - shh! But a Jeep was definitely
required this past weekend!) and don't want to find that I don't have
the right tool etc. and the inspector is coming in four hours and the
power company guy will be right behind him... sometimes it's easier to
let the pros do it, and also seeing the sticker might give prospective
buyers a little more confidence.

nate

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On 2/13/2012 9:55 AM, bob haller wrote:
state farm wouldnt insure any new
customers with fuse boxes, K&T wiring. in many cases they send a
inspector before writing a policy.

My State Farm agent said K&T is not necessarily a problem. Probably not
in small quantities.

A real estate agent I know said that it was not that hard to get
insurance for a 60A fused service.


and as far as i know soldered joints were never approved for wiring
other than K&T.

Solder joints were used for much more than K&T.
You can use solder joints now.


Receptacles should generally be tamper resistant, which indicates they
have been replaced recently, which may be a flag. I don't like
self-grounding receptacles but I might use them in a case like this.

If fuses are not a problem, you might make sure they have fusestat
adapters so the fuse size is not interchangeable. Eliminates a potential
flag.

--
bud--

Nate,

I just
don't want the estate to be paying an electrician to do this work because
a) it'd be silly when several family members are perfectly capable of
knocking it out in a day and at least I am willing to have a go at it and
b) AFAIK it is perfectly legal in most jurisdictions for a homeowner to
replace receptacles without permit/inspection, as long as it's a one for
one, and based on my understanding of the code, if I replace any recep in
a grounded box, I *must* use a modern grounding type recep, no exceptions,
so it's all perfectly legit.


Sorry to be pedantic here but it does not sound as if you own this house,
the estate does. You aren't the owner or a licensed electrician. Doesn't
sound legit. I'd do the wiring but I wouldn't fool myself by saying it's
legit.

Dave M.

On 02/13/2012 12:21 PM, Dave M. wrote:
Nate,

I just
don't want the estate to be paying an electrician to do this work because
a) it'd be silly when several family members are perfectly capable of
knocking it out in a day and at least I am willing to have a go at it and
b) AFAIK it is perfectly legal in most jurisdictions for a homeowner to
replace receptacles without permit/inspection, as long as it's a one for
one, and based on my understanding of the code, if I replace any recep in
a grounded box, I *must* use a modern grounding type recep, no exceptions,
so it's all perfectly legit.


Sorry to be pedantic here but it does not sound as if you own this house,
the estate does. You aren't the owner or a licensed electrician. Doesn't
sound legit. I'd do the wiring but I wouldn't fool myself by saying it's
legit.

Dave M.


I already called the inspector for the area and confirmed that he does
not require a permit for the work. I'm definitely not trying to do
anything slim shady here, just trying to make things right and help the
house sell as quickly as possible - unoccupied houses are quite the
liability.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 2/13/2012 9:47 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 02/13/2012 10:40 AM, dpb wrote:
....

BTW, the 't-slot' receptacle you mention--if you mean a NEMA 5-20R ...
....
The receps I am thinking of look similar to the pic in the first post here

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/dont-...g-these-31828/
....

I don't know when the last time they were made was, but at least to my
mind a) they're kind of cool in a vintage sort of way and b) they gotta
go because seeing those in a house that I would be considering buying
would be a red flag requiring more investigation.

Those are to allow either 15A or 20A nonpolarized plugs.

They're not some 120V odd-ball "old" flat 120V plug that someone is
claiming was an old 110V standard on that other link; that's just nonsense.

As far as the "red flag" issue, that's a personal problem, not a real
one...

I'm pretty sure that they're not 20A circuits, although obviously next
time I'm up there I will investigate thoroughly. In any case AFAIK
there's no code issue using a 5-15R on a 20A circuit.

That's true, but there is one the other way 'round about a 20A outlet on
a 15A circuit. And, those would allow a 20A plug which if they're
installed on a 15A circuit is not kosher.

I'm just saying that since you're going to the effort to go to grounded
outlets anyway, you might as well be sure to be consistent w/ the
circuits in which you're installing them. There might be a 20A circuit
or two for something like a window A/C unit; I don't have any way to
know of course, but certainly if they're all 15A circuits you don't want
the 20A receptacles.

--

On Feb 13, 12:34*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 02/13/2012 12:21 PM, Dave M. wrote:





Nate,

* *I just
don't want the estate to be paying an electrician to do this work because
a) it'd be silly when several family members are perfectly capable of
knocking it out in a day and at least I am willing to have a go at it and
b) AFAIK it is perfectly legal in most jurisdictions for a homeowner to
replace receptacles without permit/inspection, as long as it's a one for
one, and based on my understanding of the code, if I replace any recep in
a grounded box, I *must* use a modern grounding type recep, no exceptions,
so it's all perfectly legit.

* * Sorry to be pedantic here but it does not sound as if you own this house,
the estate does. You aren't the owner or a licensed electrician. Doesn't
sound legit. I'd do the wiring but I wouldn't fool myself by saying it's
legit.

Dave M.

I already called the inspector for the area and confirmed that he does
not require a permit for the work. *I'm definitely not trying to do
anything slim shady here, just trying to make things right and help the
house sell as quickly as possible - unoccupied houses are quite the
liability.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

your better off to let a friend live in a vacant house. they get
vandalized.

copper and steel gone, i walked thru a home where it was vacant and
someone ripped out a structural wall to steal copper plumbing

its sad what has happened to our country.

on the cloth covered wires pull some lamp fixtures and you might find
the insulation literally falling off from the heat of lamps.

in which case the home will probably need rewired, and thats a lot
tougher than swapping outlets.

check each ground to make certain its really grounded. there may be
junction boxes where the ground wires arent connected

On 2/13/2012 10:58 AM, bud-- wrote:
....

Solder joints were used for much more than K&T.
You can use solder joints now.
....

Actually, there's a point to be raised here to OP.

NEC _PROHIBITS_ solder connections in service wires, in the ground wire
or in a grounding wire.

It isn't prohibited to have solder connection but it must not be the
mechanical means of holding the connection together; iow it must have a
mechanical fastener as well.

OP's biggest task to bring the installation up to Code is probably to
correct that if the existing wiring is soldered only.

--

On 2/13/2012 8:02 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
....

- here's the kicker; that splice was *soldered.*
....

thanks for any advice/opinions, esp. on how to deal with the solder joints.
....

Actually, another post got me to realize I'd overlooked a key point here.

NEC doesn't allow a solder connection to be the mechanical means for
holding the connected wires together.

I suspect your largest task will be to correct that throughout if
mechanical fasteners were not used but only solder/tape.

--

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 02/13/2012 09:02 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
Sadly, I had to attend the funeral of an elderly family member over the
weekend. There is a house involved that will have to be sold soon as
none of the descendants live in the area, and the "old farmhouse" was
sold years ago, this is just a house in which she was living.

In discussion with other family members (who have had a few days more
than I to work on getting this moving,) I was told that "FHA would
require" the fusebox to be replaced with a breaker box to qualify for a
loan. True? This just doesn't seem right to me.

More importantly visual inspection red-flagged the receptacles to me as
those old 2-prong T-slot ones, and I mentioned that to the other family
member (executor of will/estate/etc) then ran down to fusebox again to
investigate wiring. Here's what I eventually found.

- all wiring that appears to be original to the house is cloth covered
NM type cables, appear to be in excellent shape.

- Every single cable that was oriented so that I could read the printing
on it was marked "With Ground." Hmmm...

- pulled out a recep in the living room and I found a very nicely
installed single gang box, two cables coming into it, and yes they were
grounded! The two ground wires from the cables were spliced to a pigtail
which was screwed to the metal box. The recep of course was ungrounded.

- here's the kicker; that splice was *soldered.*

- and yes, the wiring is COPPER not aluminum thankfully!

- so to summarize, the wiring, other than not being 90C temp rated,
appears functionally identical to what would be installed today, with
the exception that the receps are obsolete.

So, I ASSume that what I should do, in the interest of inexpensively
removing what would be a red flag to a buyer, is to just go to the
supply house, buy a couple contractor packs of good duplex receps and
some green 14 (or a box of greenies,) and roll through and replace all
the receps in the house with new 3-prong ones. Question is, what would
be the best way to splice to that soldered connection? I'm a little
concerned with the idea of just slapping a greenie on top of possibly 60
year old solder. Should I twist a new pigtail into the bundle and add
some solder? Or am I all concerned about nothing and the wire nut of the
greenie will bite through the solder acceptably? If I should solder,
what wattage iron did a typical electrician use back in the day? I'm
assuming this is going to be typical of 20-30 boxes throughout the house
so I am trying to plan my moves so that I can roll through there in a day.

I probably will bring some GFCIs as well and put them in the kitchen and
bath as I don't believe that anything was ever updated, ever.

I don't know exactly when the house was built, but I am assuming
sometime in the 50's by the kitchen cabinets and countertop (which I love.)

Another interesting feature of the house is that the light switches are
all pushbuttons. I think there was a thread on these a while back where
I mentioned this very house, as I've never seen them elsewhere. Like this:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/68... ndard_switch


but ivory in color, and the button is perfectly rectangular and square
to the wall. When I go back I'll have to pull one out and snap some pics.

Sidebar question - my inclination is to keep the original switches and
plastic cover plates, as IMHO they "fit" the age and decor of the house.
Or do you think it would be better to replace the switches and plates as
well to provide a more "modern" look? I'm concerned with bang for the
buck here and the perceptions of the average buyer. I know that I'm not
average

thanks for any advice/opinions, esp. on how to deal with the solder joints.

nate



Additional comment: the odd thing is that the last house I personally
owned was several years older, and did not have grounds, but did use
wire nuts everywhere that a splice was required! I guess the guy that
wired this house was just old school.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

If I'm reading your description correctly, the grounds are twisted and
soldered together with one of the wires continuing past that splice to
be screwed to the metal box. If this is the case I would remove that
screwed connection, twist on the new pigtail to the new receptacle and
top it off with one of the Ideal pre-fab ground wirenut pigtail
assemblies that has a green wire nut with a green wire coming out of the
end of the wire nut and terminating to a spade lug terminal which you
would screw to the box. I've been using those pigtail assemblies
extensively since I found them and really like them.

GFCIs in the kitchen, bathroom, basement and garage as applicable, and
those should be easy since you have grounded wiring already.

On those pushbutton switches, I'd be inclined to replace them all with
regular toggle or Decora style switches which will look more "up to
date" to potential buyers and barely knowledgeable home inspectors. I
suspect that the pushbutton switches and plates could fetch a few $ on
ebay from someone doing a restoration type project.

On 2/13/2012 9:02 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
Sadly, I had to attend the funeral of an elderly family member over the
weekend. There is a house involved that will have to be sold soon as
none of the descendants live in the area, and the "old farmhouse" was
sold years ago, this is just a house in which she was living.

In discussion with other family members (who have had a few days more
than I to work on getting this moving,) I was told that "FHA would
require" the fusebox to be replaced with a breaker box to qualify for a
loan. True? This just doesn't seem right to me.

More importantly visual inspection red-flagged the receptacles to me as
those old 2-prong T-slot ones, and I mentioned that to the other family
member (executor of will/estate/etc) then ran down to fusebox again to
investigate wiring. Here's what I eventually found.

- all wiring that appears to be original to the house is cloth covered
NM type cables, appear to be in excellent shape.

- Every single cable that was oriented so that I could read the printing
on it was marked "With Ground." Hmmm...

- pulled out a recep in the living room and I found a very nicely
installed single gang box, two cables coming into it, and yes they were
grounded! The two ground wires from the cables were spliced to a pigtail
which was screwed to the metal box. The recep of course was ungrounded.

- here's the kicker; that splice was *soldered.*

- and yes, the wiring is COPPER not aluminum thankfully!

- so to summarize, the wiring, other than not being 90C temp rated,
appears functionally identical to what would be installed today, with
the exception that the receps are obsolete.

So, I ASSume that what I should do, in the interest of inexpensively
removing what would be a red flag to a buyer, is to just go to the
supply house, buy a couple contractor packs of good duplex receps and
some green 14 (or a box of greenies,) and roll through and replace all
the receps in the house with new 3-prong ones. Question is, what would
be the best way to splice to that soldered connection? I'm a little
concerned with the idea of just slapping a greenie on top of possibly 60
year old solder. Should I twist a new pigtail into the bundle and add
some solder? Or am I all concerned about nothing and the wire nut of the
greenie will bite through the solder acceptably? If I should solder,
what wattage iron did a typical electrician use back in the day? I'm
assuming this is going to be typical of 20-30 boxes throughout the house
so I am trying to plan my moves so that I can roll through there in a day.

I probably will bring some GFCIs as well and put them in the kitchen and
bath as I don't believe that anything was ever updated, ever.

I don't know exactly when the house was built, but I am assuming
sometime in the 50's by the kitchen cabinets and countertop (which I love.)

Another interesting feature of the house is that the light switches are
all pushbuttons. I think there was a thread on these a while back where
I mentioned this very house, as I've never seen them elsewhere. Like this:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/68... ndard_switch


but ivory in color, and the button is perfectly rectangular and square
to the wall. When I go back I'll have to pull one out and snap some pics.

Sidebar question - my inclination is to keep the original switches and
plastic cover plates, as IMHO they "fit" the age and decor of the house.
Or do you think it would be better to replace the switches and plates as
well to provide a more "modern" look? I'm concerned with bang for the
buck here and the perceptions of the average buyer. I know that I'm not
average

thanks for any advice/opinions, esp. on how to deal with the solder joints.

nate



If it were me, I'd leave everything as it is, until or unless you know
definitively that some entity having jurisdiction, wants something
upgraded. I suppose, Freddie, Fannie, State Farm or anyone else involved
in the buying - selling process can request/demand a variety of things,
but unless you have something in writing, you may be duplicating your
efforts.

On 2/13/2012 8:02 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
....

Another interesting feature of the house is that the light switches are
all pushbuttons. I think there was a thread on these a while back where
I mentioned this very house, as I've never seen them elsewhere. Like this:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/68... ndard_switch
....

This house originally had pushbutton switches something like

http://houseofantiquehardware.com/s.nl/sc.9/category.34/.f

Unfortunately, Dad didn't even keep them afaict when the folks updated
the house in the late '70s/early 80s.

--

Sadly, I had to attend the funeral of an elderly family member over the
weekend. There is a house involved that will have to be sold soon as none
of the descendants live in the area, and the "old farmhouse" was sold
years ago, this is just a house in which she was living.

In discussion with other family members (who have had a few days more than
I to work on getting this moving,) I was told that "FHA would require" the
fusebox to be replaced with a breaker box to qualify for a loan. True?
This just doesn't seem right to me.

More importantly visual inspection red-flagged the receptacles to me as
those old 2-prong T-slot ones, and I mentioned that to the other family
member (executor of will/estate/etc) then ran down to fusebox again to
investigate wiring. Here's what I eventually found.

- all wiring that appears to be original to the house is cloth covered NM
type cables, appear to be in excellent shape.

- Every single cable that was oriented so that I could read the printing
on it was marked "With Ground." Hmmm...

- pulled out a recep in the living room and I found a very nicely
installed single gang box, two cables coming into it, and yes they were
grounded! The two ground wires from the cables were spliced to a pigtail
which was screwed to the metal box. The recep of course was ungrounded.

- here's the kicker; that splice was *soldered.*

- and yes, the wiring is COPPER not aluminum thankfully!

- so to summarize, the wiring, other than not being 90C temp rated,
appears functionally identical to what would be installed today, with the
exception that the receps are obsolete.

So, I ASSume that what I should do, in the interest of inexpensively
removing what would be a red flag to a buyer, is to just go to the supply
house, buy a couple contractor packs of good duplex receps and some green
14 (or a box of greenies,) and roll through and replace all the receps in
the house with new 3-prong ones. Question is, what would be the best way
to splice to that soldered connection? I'm a little concerned with the
idea of just slapping a greenie on top of possibly 60 year old solder.
Should I twist a new pigtail into the bundle and add some solder? Or am I
all concerned about nothing and the wire nut of the greenie will bite
through the solder acceptably? If I should solder, what wattage iron did
a typical electrician use back in the day? I'm assuming this is going to
be typical of 20-30 boxes throughout the house so I am trying to plan my
moves so that I can roll through there in a day.

I probably will bring some GFCIs as well and put them in the kitchen and
bath as I don't believe that anything was ever updated, ever.

I don't know exactly when the house was built, but I am assuming sometime
in the 50's by the kitchen cabinets and countertop (which I love.)

Another interesting feature of the house is that the light switches are
all pushbuttons. I think there was a thread on these a while back where I
mentioned this very house, as I've never seen them elsewhere. Like this:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/68... ndard_switch

but ivory in color, and the button is perfectly rectangular and square to
the wall. When I go back I'll have to pull one out and snap some pics.

Sidebar question - my inclination is to keep the original switches and
plastic cover plates, as IMHO they "fit" the age and decor of the house.
Or do you think it would be better to replace the switches and plates as
well to provide a more "modern" look? I'm concerned with bang for the
buck here and the perceptions of the average buyer. I know that I'm not
average

thanks for any advice/opinions, esp. on how to deal with the solder
joints.


*If the boxes are metal and are grounded, you can use self-grounding
receptacles and switches. That would be a lot easier than opening up old
soldered splices.

I'm not sure why you plan to do all of this work. You can always try to
sell the house "As is". If you want to get the most money from the sale,
talk to a real estate agent or two from the area and they will tell you
exactly what to do to increase value and salability.

I have heard that certain lenders such as HUD and FHA have certain
requirements before they will extend a loan, but I would wait until you know
all of the facts.

On 2/13/2012 11:39 AM, dpb wrote:
On 2/13/2012 9:47 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 02/13/2012 10:40 AM, dpb wrote:
...

BTW, the 't-slot' receptacle you mention--if you mean a NEMA 5-20R ...
...
The receps I am thinking of look similar to the pic in the first post
here

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/dont-...g-these-31828/

...

I don't know when the last time they were made was, but at least to my
mind a) they're kind of cool in a vintage sort of way and b) they gotta
go because seeing those in a house that I would be considering buying
would be a red flag requiring more investigation.

Those are to allow either 15A or 20A nonpolarized plugs.

I don't think so. Are there even 20A plugs without a ground pin? The
other question is whether it would fit in the flat dimension.


They're not some 120V odd-ball "old" flat 120V plug that someone is
claiming was an old 110V standard on that other link; that's just nonsense.

Nope. There did used to be 120V plugs where both prongs were flat. They
would fit in a T-slot.

The "T-slot" receptacle goes back a long time.

Going back even further, some loads, like maybe an early vacuum cleaner,
had a "plug" that was like an Edison-base light bulb. The screw shell
could rotate freely until the plug bottomed. It was used early when
there were lights but no receptacles. Then they made matching
"receptacles" that were like an Edison socket. There was a flap that
covered the opening when not in use.

--
bud--

On 2/13/2012 11:45 AM, dpb wrote:
On 2/13/2012 10:58 AM, bud-- wrote:
...

Solder joints were used for much more than K&T.
You can use solder joints now.
...

Actually, there's a point to be raised here to OP.

NEC _PROHIBITS_ solder connections in service wires, in the ground wire
or in a grounding wire.

For a ground wire it depends on what the code says at the time the house
was wired. And also depends on the allowed practice in that jurisdiction
at that time.


It isn't prohibited to have solder connection but it must not be the
mechanical means of holding the connection together; iow it must have a
mechanical fastener as well.

The mechanical means is typically by twisting the wires. Before there
were wire nuts, BX (for instance) wires would be twisted, fluxed, and
pointed down. The electrician would come around with a solder pot and
raise the pot to dip the connection. A fastener is not required. I have
only seen one of these connections that was bad.


OP's biggest task to bring the installation up to Code is probably to
correct that if the existing wiring is soldered only.

There didn't used to be wire nuts; soldering was common. Ground wires
may or may not be compliant. If the ground connection is not disturbed
(for instance using self-grounding receptacles) I doubt an inspector
would care in any case.

--
bud--

On 2/13/2012 9:47 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:

The receps I am thinking of look similar to the pic in the first post here

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/dont-...g-these-31828/

(The linked thread has a familiar figure.)

The thread is 2004. The link to the Leviton T-slot does not work now. If
I remember right, the last thread on T-slots here, replacements were
available but were not UL listed.

--
bud--

Nate Nagel wrote:

Sadly, I had to attend the funeral of an elderly family member over the
weekend. There is a house involved that will have to be sold soon as
none of the descendants live in the area, and the "old farmhouse" was
sold years ago, this is just a house in which she was living.

In discussion with other family members (who have had a few days more
than I to work on getting this moving,) I was told that "FHA would
require" the fusebox to be replaced with a breaker box to qualify for a
loan. True? This just doesn't seem right to me.

More importantly visual inspection red-flagged the receptacles to me as
those old 2-prong T-slot ones, and I mentioned that to the other family
member (executor of will/estate/etc) then ran down to fusebox again to
investigate wiring. Here's what I eventually found.

- all wiring that appears to be original to the house is cloth covered
NM type cables, appear to be in excellent shape.

- Every single cable that was oriented so that I could read the printing
on it was marked "With Ground." Hmmm...

- pulled out a recep in the living room and I found a very nicely
installed single gang box, two cables coming into it, and yes they were
grounded! The two ground wires from the cables were spliced to a
pigtail which was screwed to the metal box. The recep of course was
ungrounded.

- here's the kicker; that splice was *soldered.*

- and yes, the wiring is COPPER not aluminum thankfully!

- so to summarize, the wiring, other than not being 90C temp rated,
appears functionally identical to what would be installed today, with
the exception that the receps are obsolete.

So, I ASSume that what I should do, in the interest of inexpensively
removing what would be a red flag to a buyer, is to just go to the
supply house, buy a couple contractor packs of good duplex receps and
some green 14 (or a box of greenies,) and roll through and replace all
the receps in the house with new 3-prong ones. Question is, what would
be the best way to splice to that soldered connection? I'm a little
concerned with the idea of just slapping a greenie on top of possibly 60
year old solder. Should I twist a new pigtail into the bundle and add
some solder? Or am I all concerned about nothing and the wire nut of
the greenie will bite through the solder acceptably? If I should
solder, what wattage iron did a typical electrician use back in the day?
I'm assuming this is going to be typical of 20-30 boxes throughout the
house so I am trying to plan my moves so that I can roll through there
in a day.

I probably will bring some GFCIs as well and put them in the kitchen and
bath as I don't believe that anything was ever updated, ever.

I don't know exactly when the house was built, but I am assuming
sometime in the 50's by the kitchen cabinets and countertop (which I love.)

Another interesting feature of the house is that the light switches are
all pushbuttons. I think there was a thread on these a while back where
I mentioned this very house, as I've never seen them elsewhere. Like this:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/68... ndard_switch

but ivory in color, and the button is perfectly rectangular and square
to the wall. When I go back I'll have to pull one out and snap some pics.

Sidebar question - my inclination is to keep the original switches and
plastic cover plates, as IMHO they "fit" the age and decor of the house.
Or do you think it would be better to replace the switches and plates
as well to provide a more "modern" look? I'm concerned with bang for
the buck here and the perceptions of the average buyer. I know that I'm
not average

thanks for any advice/opinions, esp. on how to deal with the solder joints.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

If I'm reading your description correctly, the grounds are twisted and
soldered together with one of the wires continuing past that splice to
be screwed to the metal box. If this is the case I would remove that
screwed connection, twist on the new pigtail to the new receptacle and
top it off with one of the Ideal pre-fab ground wirenut pigtail
assemblies that has a green wire nut with a green wire coming out of the
end of the wire nut and terminating to a spade lug terminal which you
would screw to the box. I've been using those pigtail assemblies
extensively since I found them and really like them.

GFCIs in the kitchen, bathroom, basement and garage as applicable, and
those should be easy since you have grounded wiring already.

On those pushbutton switches, I'd be inclined to replace them all with
regular toggle or Decora style switches which will look more "up to
date" to potential buyers and barely knowledgeable home inspectors. I
suspect that the pushbutton switches and plates could fetch a few $ on
ebay from someone doing a restoration type project.

If it were me, I'd leave everything as it is, until or unless you know
definitively that some entity having jurisdiction, wants something
upgraded. I suppose, Freddie, Fannie, State Farm or anyone else involved
in the buying - selling process can request/demand a variety of things,
but unless you have something in writing, you may be duplicating your
efforts.-

That sounds nice but come back to bite you bad

So the sellers do little, and a ready buyer shows up and they hire a
home inspector.

who flags all the outlets, lack of grounds no GFCI etc.

Where before sale DIY could of taken care of all this. now their is a
buyer and he will nearly always demand all work be done by registered
electricians etc.

the costs to fix stuff will skyrocket and the registered contractors
will find new issues. and more added costs.

in the case a buyer finds defencies its far better to get estimates
and agree to deduct it off sales price.

otherwise registered contractors will find more issues and more added
costs

sorry to muddy the water even more......

and to the OP you work on the home and something bad happens to the
house owners may try to lay blame on anyone convenient... you. even if
it wasnt your fault.........

you have been warned!

On 02/13/2012 12:48 PM, dpb wrote:
On 2/13/2012 8:02 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
...

- here's the kicker; that splice was *soldered.*
...

thanks for any advice/opinions, esp. on how to deal with the solder
joints.
...

Actually, another post got me to realize I'd overlooked a key point here.

NEC doesn't allow a solder connection to be the mechanical means for
holding the connected wires together.

I suspect your largest task will be to correct that throughout if
mechanical fasteners were not used but only solder/tape.

I've seen discussions of that before, some argue that twisting the wires
together provides the mechanical connection, some argue otherwise. Or
to sidestep the whole issue I could just put a yellow wire nut over
every soldered connection? The ground connection in the box that I
looked at was never taped.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 02/13/2012 01:26 PM, RBM wrote:
On 2/13/2012 9:02 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
Sadly, I had to attend the funeral of an elderly family member over the
weekend. There is a house involved that will have to be sold soon as
none of the descendants live in the area, and the "old farmhouse" was
sold years ago, this is just a house in which she was living.

In discussion with other family members (who have had a few days more
than I to work on getting this moving,) I was told that "FHA would
require" the fusebox to be replaced with a breaker box to qualify for a
loan. True? This just doesn't seem right to me.

More importantly visual inspection red-flagged the receptacles to me as
those old 2-prong T-slot ones, and I mentioned that to the other family
member (executor of will/estate/etc) then ran down to fusebox again to
investigate wiring. Here's what I eventually found.

- all wiring that appears to be original to the house is cloth covered
NM type cables, appear to be in excellent shape.

- Every single cable that was oriented so that I could read the printing
on it was marked "With Ground." Hmmm...

- pulled out a recep in the living room and I found a very nicely
installed single gang box, two cables coming into it, and yes they were
grounded! The two ground wires from the cables were spliced to a pigtail
which was screwed to the metal box. The recep of course was ungrounded.

- here's the kicker; that splice was *soldered.*

- and yes, the wiring is COPPER not aluminum thankfully!

- so to summarize, the wiring, other than not being 90C temp rated,
appears functionally identical to what would be installed today, with
the exception that the receps are obsolete.

So, I ASSume that what I should do, in the interest of inexpensively
removing what would be a red flag to a buyer, is to just go to the
supply house, buy a couple contractor packs of good duplex receps and
some green 14 (or a box of greenies,) and roll through and replace all
the receps in the house with new 3-prong ones. Question is, what would
be the best way to splice to that soldered connection? I'm a little
concerned with the idea of just slapping a greenie on top of possibly 60
year old solder. Should I twist a new pigtail into the bundle and add
some solder? Or am I all concerned about nothing and the wire nut of the
greenie will bite through the solder acceptably? If I should solder,
what wattage iron did a typical electrician use back in the day? I'm
assuming this is going to be typical of 20-30 boxes throughout the house
so I am trying to plan my moves so that I can roll through there in a
day.

I probably will bring some GFCIs as well and put them in the kitchen and
bath as I don't believe that anything was ever updated, ever.

I don't know exactly when the house was built, but I am assuming
sometime in the 50's by the kitchen cabinets and countertop (which I
love.)

Another interesting feature of the house is that the light switches are
all pushbuttons. I think there was a thread on these a while back where
I mentioned this very house, as I've never seen them elsewhere. Like
this:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/68... ndard_switch



but ivory in color, and the button is perfectly rectangular and square
to the wall. When I go back I'll have to pull one out and snap some pics.

Sidebar question - my inclination is to keep the original switches and
plastic cover plates, as IMHO they "fit" the age and decor of the house.
Or do you think it would be better to replace the switches and plates as
well to provide a more "modern" look? I'm concerned with bang for the
buck here and the perceptions of the average buyer. I know that I'm not
average

thanks for any advice/opinions, esp. on how to deal with the solder
joints.

nate



If it were me, I'd leave everything as it is, until or unless you know
definitively that some entity having jurisdiction, wants something
upgraded. I suppose, Freddie, Fannie, State Farm or anyone else involved
in the buying - selling process can request/demand a variety of things,
but unless you have something in writing, you may be duplicating your
efforts.

I guess I'm just looking at it from the perspective of if I were the
prospective home buyer, ungrounded receps would be a sign that the
wiring needed to be upgraded and that would make me make a much lower
offer on the place if I were even to do so. In this particular instance
the wiring does not need to be replaced, so it's just a matter of
replacing the devices and getting rid of the issue entirely; for what
it'd cost *my* opinion is it'd be worth it; as to whether it'd be worth
it to any particular interested party, who can say?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 2/13/2012 1:58 PM, bud-- wrote:
....

There didn't used to be wire nuts; soldering was common. Ground wires
may or may not be compliant. If the ground connection is not disturbed
(for instance using self-grounding receptacles) I doubt an inspector
would care in any case.

That's usta' be.

I'd not be at all surprised that an inspection would have an issue w/
soldered ground wires now if they're disturbed at all. If completely
undisturbed they would have good chance of getting by, I'd agree.

The point was to simply to make OP aware of current reqm'ts...

--

On 02/13/2012 04:06 PM, bob haller wrote:

If it were me, I'd leave everything as it is, until or unless you know
definitively that some entity having jurisdiction, wants something
upgraded. I suppose, Freddie, Fannie, State Farm or anyone else involved
in the buying - selling process can request/demand a variety of things,
but unless you have something in writing, you may be duplicating your
efforts.-

That sounds nice but come back to bite you bad

So the sellers do little, and a ready buyer shows up and they hire a
home inspector.

who flags all the outlets, lack of grounds no GFCI etc.

Where before sale DIY could of taken care of all this. now their is a
buyer and he will nearly always demand all work be done by registered
electricians etc.

the costs to fix stuff will skyrocket and the registered contractors
will find new issues. and more added costs.

in the case a buyer finds defencies its far better to get estimates
and agree to deduct it off sales price.

otherwise registered contractors will find more issues and more added
costs

sorry to muddy the water even more......

and to the OP you work on the home and something bad happens to the
house owners may try to lay blame on anyone convenient... you. even if
it wasnt your fault.........

you have been warned!

Hah, ain't that the truth.

Just did that dance with my own house last year. Home inspector found
stuff, some of it reasonable some of it not. Some of it just plain
wrong, but understandable why he flagged it and could be explained away.
Difficulty: the buyer's realtor was a coworker's wife, so nobody
wanted me (the only person who could speak intelligently about the
issues) in direct contact with anyone on the buyer's side.

I eventually got them to agree, by passing notes from me to realtor to
realtor to buyer, to strike the "licensed contractor" verbiage, make the
necessary repairs myself, and have a reinspection w/ home inspector in
lieu of presenting contractor's receipts, at my expense (reasonable.)
Come to find out the inspector was a fairly reasonable sort, and had we
just been allowed to discuss the issues up front I wouldn't have been
nearly so stressed out and worked up. But c'est la vie in the modern age.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 2/13/2012 3:45 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
....

I've seen discussions of that before, some argue that twisting the wires
together provides the mechanical connection, some argue otherwise. Or to
sidestep the whole issue I could just put a yellow wire nut over every
soldered connection? The ground connection in the box that I looked at
was never taped.
....

The latter would be the easy way out that I think would be legal; I've
never had the situation arise directly.

I think what you can get by with will depend on the inspector and the
circumstance. I know the reqm't in old code was that if there is any
tension on the wire, the splice must mechanically be as strong as the
original wire w/o the solder. Certainly simply a twisted end doesn't
come close to that level. I don't have an old copy of the Code at hand
to conveniently be able to see what it says about a simply in-box
connection of this type for the mechanical strength reqm't if there
is/was any distinction made between where the connection was and what
was required.

The ground connection doesn't require insulation; you could run bare
wire just as well for the ground pigtail.

--

On 2/13/2012 4:06 PM, bob haller wrote:

If it were me, I'd leave everything as it is, until or unless you know
definitively that some entity having jurisdiction, wants something
upgraded. I suppose, Freddie, Fannie, State Farm or anyone else involved
in the buying - selling process can request/demand a variety of things,
but unless you have something in writing, you may be duplicating your
efforts.-

That sounds nice but come back to bite you bad

So the sellers do little, and a ready buyer shows up and they hire a
home inspector.

who flags all the outlets, lack of grounds no GFCI etc.

Where before sale DIY could of taken care of all this. now their is a
buyer and he will nearly always demand all work be done by registered
electricians etc.

the costs to fix stuff will skyrocket and the registered contractors
will find new issues. and more added costs.

in the case a buyer finds defencies its far better to get estimates
and agree to deduct it off sales price.

otherwise registered contractors will find more issues and more added
costs

sorry to muddy the water even more......

and to the OP you work on the home and something bad happens to the
house owners may try to lay blame on anyone convenient... you. even if
it wasnt your fault.........

you have been warned!


If you're looking to renovate a house to raise it's value, I could write
a huge list of items that would help. If the intent is to remove issues
that may prevent a sale, I think the prudent thing to do, is find out
what those issues might be. "Home inspectors" have no power or authority
over anything or anyone, except maybe for you. They are hired by a
perspective buyer to find problems and violations with the building. If
the building has a valid C/O, then all the wiring, regardless of type or
age, unless it's been damaged or improperly altered, is compliant. There
is no violation in having fuses, non grounding outlets, no gfci outlets,
no afci outlets, or anything else required in current code.

On Feb 13, 5:15*pm, RBM wrote:
On 2/13/2012 4:06 PM, bob haller wrote:







If it were me, I'd leave everything as it is, until or unless you know
definitively that some entity having jurisdiction, wants something
upgraded. I suppose, Freddie, Fannie, State Farm or anyone else involved
in the buying - selling process can request/demand a variety of things,
but unless you have something in writing, you may be duplicating your
efforts.-

That sounds nice but come back to bite you bad

So the sellers do little, and a ready buyer shows up and they hire a
home inspector.

who flags all the outlets, lack of grounds no GFCI etc.

Where before sale DIY could of taken care of all this. now their is a
buyer and he will nearly always demand all work be done by registered
electricians etc.

the costs to fix stuff will skyrocket and the registered contractors
will find new issues. and more added costs.

in the case a buyer finds defencies its far better to get estimates
and agree to deduct it off sales price.

otherwise registered contractors will find more issues and more added
costs

sorry to muddy the water even more......

and to the OP you work on the home and something bad happens to the
house owners may try to lay blame on anyone convenient... you. even if
it wasnt your fault.........

you have been warned!

If you're looking to renovate a house to raise it's value, I could write
a huge list of items that would help. If the intent is to remove issues
that may prevent a sale, I think the prudent thing to do, is find out
what those issues might be. "Home inspectors" have no power or authority
over anything or anyone, except maybe for you. They are hired by a
perspective buyer to find problems and violations with the building. If
the building has a valid C/O, then all the wiring, regardless of type or
age, unless it's been damaged or improperly altered, is compliant. There
is no violation in having fuses, non grounding outlets, no gfci outlets,
no afci outlets, or anything else required in current code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

no but you may be unable to get homeowners insurance.

and adding GFCIs etc you may find the existing boxes are too small.
that makes for a bigger job

On 02/13/2012 05:15 PM, RBM wrote:
On 2/13/2012 4:06 PM, bob haller wrote:

If it were me, I'd leave everything as it is, until or unless you know
definitively that some entity having jurisdiction, wants something
upgraded. I suppose, Freddie, Fannie, State Farm or anyone else involved
in the buying - selling process can request/demand a variety of things,
but unless you have something in writing, you may be duplicating your
efforts.-

That sounds nice but come back to bite you bad

So the sellers do little, and a ready buyer shows up and they hire a
home inspector.

who flags all the outlets, lack of grounds no GFCI etc.

Where before sale DIY could of taken care of all this. now their is a
buyer and he will nearly always demand all work be done by registered
electricians etc.

the costs to fix stuff will skyrocket and the registered contractors
will find new issues. and more added costs.

in the case a buyer finds defencies its far better to get estimates
and agree to deduct it off sales price.

otherwise registered contractors will find more issues and more added
costs

sorry to muddy the water even more......

and to the OP you work on the home and something bad happens to the
house owners may try to lay blame on anyone convenient... you. even if
it wasnt your fault.........

you have been warned!


If you're looking to renovate a house to raise it's value, I could write
a huge list of items that would help. If the intent is to remove issues
that may prevent a sale, I think the prudent thing to do, is find out
what those issues might be. "Home inspectors" have no power or authority
over anything or anyone, except maybe for you. They are hired by a
perspective buyer to find problems and violations with the building. If
the building has a valid C/O, then all the wiring, regardless of type or
age, unless it's been damaged or improperly altered, is compliant. There
is no violation in having fuses, non grounding outlets, no gfci outlets,
no afci outlets, or anything else required in current code.

I agree 100%. The work original to the house actually looks very good.
It doesn't look like anything ever got wet or even really dirty - the
house as a whole is very clean and other than style you couldn't guess
the age of much of anything in there from condition. I personally
wouldn't touch the fuse box unless/until I was ready to upgrade the
service and I'm not sure that that's necessary. (100A now. don't know
what size the service wires are; they may be OK for 150.) For *me
personally* I would want grounding receps everywhere though; your
average person these days has too many electronics to not have that.
Since it's an easy "fix" it might be a good pre-emptive strike to do
them now. If I hadn't found the soldered splice we wouldn't even be
having this discussion, I'd know exactly what to do. And even so I
think I can make this work. What I'll do is -

pull the old receps, and at each box, put a yellow wire nut over the
soldered splice to sidestep any future concerns about the "mechanical
connection" verbiage

then take another wire nut, remove the pigtail from the ground screw,
snip off the loop, then splice a longer piece of bare wire onto it. I
will then wrap the bare wire around the ground screw and have the wire
continue on to the ground screw of the device.

That should work, yes?

My initial thought was to lay a wire alongside the soldered splice and
wire nut over the whole package, but I have concerns about the years of
oxidation of the solder. If it appears that in some locations snipping
off the solder joint would not shorten the wires enough to make a
noncompliant installation, I would certainly do that to make life easier.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 2/13/2012 5:20 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Feb 13, 5:15 pm, wrote:
On 2/13/2012 4:06 PM, bob haller wrote:







If it were me, I'd leave everything as it is, until or unless you know
definitively that some entity having jurisdiction, wants something
upgraded. I suppose, Freddie, Fannie, State Farm or anyone else involved
in the buying - selling process can request/demand a variety of things,
but unless you have something in writing, you may be duplicating your
efforts.-

That sounds nice but come back to bite you bad

So the sellers do little, and a ready buyer shows up and they hire a
home inspector.

who flags all the outlets, lack of grounds no GFCI etc.

Where before sale DIY could of taken care of all this. now their is a
buyer and he will nearly always demand all work be done by registered
electricians etc.

the costs to fix stuff will skyrocket and the registered contractors
will find new issues. and more added costs.

in the case a buyer finds defencies its far better to get estimates
and agree to deduct it off sales price.

otherwise registered contractors will find more issues and more added
costs

sorry to muddy the water even more......

and to the OP you work on the home and something bad happens to the
house owners may try to lay blame on anyone convenient... you. even if
it wasnt your fault.........

you have been warned!

If you're looking to renovate a house to raise it's value, I could write
a huge list of items that would help. If the intent is to remove issues
that may prevent a sale, I think the prudent thing to do, is find out
what those issues might be. "Home inspectors" have no power or authority
over anything or anyone, except maybe for you. They are hired by a
perspective buyer to find problems and violations with the building. If
the building has a valid C/O, then all the wiring, regardless of type or
age, unless it's been damaged or improperly altered, is compliant. There
is no violation in having fuses, non grounding outlets, no gfci outlets,
no afci outlets, or anything else required in current code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

no but you may be unable to get homeowners insurance.

and adding GFCIs etc you may find the existing boxes are too small.
that makes for a bigger job

You are the only one who can't get homeowners insurance.
My point is that if the perspective buyer wants to install gfci
outlets or make any other improvements, it's his business. The seller
doesn't have to worry about the size that the boxes may be.

On 2/13/2012 5:38 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 02/13/2012 05:15 PM, RBM wrote:
On 2/13/2012 4:06 PM, bob haller wrote:

If it were me, I'd leave everything as it is, until or unless you know
definitively that some entity having jurisdiction, wants something
upgraded. I suppose, Freddie, Fannie, State Farm or anyone else
involved
in the buying - selling process can request/demand a variety of things,
but unless you have something in writing, you may be duplicating your
efforts.-

That sounds nice but come back to bite you bad

So the sellers do little, and a ready buyer shows up and they hire a
home inspector.

who flags all the outlets, lack of grounds no GFCI etc.

Where before sale DIY could of taken care of all this. now their is a
buyer and he will nearly always demand all work be done by registered
electricians etc.

the costs to fix stuff will skyrocket and the registered contractors
will find new issues. and more added costs.

in the case a buyer finds defencies its far better to get estimates
and agree to deduct it off sales price.

otherwise registered contractors will find more issues and more added
costs

sorry to muddy the water even more......

and to the OP you work on the home and something bad happens to the
house owners may try to lay blame on anyone convenient... you. even if
it wasnt your fault.........

you have been warned!


If you're looking to renovate a house to raise it's value, I could write
a huge list of items that would help. If the intent is to remove issues
that may prevent a sale, I think the prudent thing to do, is find out
what those issues might be. "Home inspectors" have no power or authority
over anything or anyone, except maybe for you. They are hired by a
perspective buyer to find problems and violations with the building. If
the building has a valid C/O, then all the wiring, regardless of type or
age, unless it's been damaged or improperly altered, is compliant. There
is no violation in having fuses, non grounding outlets, no gfci outlets,
no afci outlets, or anything else required in current code.

I agree 100%. The work original to the house actually looks very good.
It doesn't look like anything ever got wet or even really dirty - the
house as a whole is very clean and other than style you couldn't guess
the age of much of anything in there from condition. I personally
wouldn't touch the fuse box unless/until I was ready to upgrade the
service and I'm not sure that that's necessary. (100A now. don't know
what size the service wires are; they may be OK for 150.) For *me
personally* I would want grounding receps everywhere though; your
average person these days has too many electronics to not have that.
Since it's an easy "fix" it might be a good pre-emptive strike to do
them now. If I hadn't found the soldered splice we wouldn't even be
having this discussion, I'd know exactly what to do. And even so I think
I can make this work. What I'll do is -

pull the old receps, and at each box, put a yellow wire nut over the
soldered splice to sidestep any future concerns about the "mechanical
connection" verbiage

I wouldn't worry about the verbiage. That splice is fine, just
disconnect the wire under the box screw and tap that one.

then take another wire nut, remove the pigtail from the ground screw,
snip off the loop, then splice a longer piece of bare wire onto it. I
will then wrap the bare wire around the ground screw and have the wire
continue on to the ground screw of the device.

That should work, yes?

Sounds like a plan.

My initial thought was to lay a wire alongside the soldered splice and
wire nut over the whole package, but I have concerns about the years of
oxidation of the solder. If it appears that in some locations snipping
off the solder joint would not shorten the wires enough to make a
noncompliant installation, I would certainly do that to make life easier.

If you have enough meat to redo the splice, eliminating the soldered
joint, fine, otherwise just tuck it into the box. I also wouldn't
attempt to put a wire nut on a solder joint. They don't hold properly.
The lead is too soft.

nate

On Feb 13, 8:02*am, Nate Nagel wrote:

snip

To make the job easier, consider clipping the solder joints, stripping
and using Wago push on connectors. They take up far less room in the
old boxes, and with 2,4,6,and 8 hole types can accommodate a lot of
unusual situations. They should be especially handy for pigtailing the
crowded boxes. Could save you a ton of time.

Joe

On 2/13/2012 4:57 PM, dpb wrote:
On 2/13/2012 3:45 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
...

I've seen discussions of that before, some argue that twisting the wires
together provides the mechanical connection, some argue otherwise. Or to
sidestep the whole issue I could just put a yellow wire nut over every
soldered connection? The ground connection in the box that I looked at
was never taped.
...

The latter would be the easy way out that I think would be legal; I've
never had the situation arise directly.

I think what you can get by with will depend on the inspector and the
circumstance. I know the reqm't in old code was that if there is any
tension on the wire, the splice must mechanically be as strong as the
original wire w/o the solder. Certainly simply a twisted end doesn't
come close to that level. I don't have an old copy of the Code at hand
to conveniently be able to see what it says about a simply in-box
connection of this type for the mechanical strength reqm't if there
is/was any distinction made between where the connection was and what
was required.

The ground connection doesn't require insulation; you could run bare
wire just as well for the ground pigtail.

--

Nec 110.14 (B) Electrical connections (Splices) " Soldered
splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and
electrically secure without solder and then be soldered.