On 12/19/2011 2:48 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 12/19/2011 05:11 PM, Larry W wrote:
Regarding stop and go, slow speed use in the context of severe service:
Few usage patterns would be more likely to fall in this category than
inner city delivery service. Fleet operators, unlike quickie oil change
establishments, dealer service departments, independant shops, DIY auto
supply stores. etc. have no incentive other than to operate and maintain
their fleets in the most cost effective manner. They have demonstrated
that
it is not necessary to change oil at 3000 mile intervals to get
reasonable
longevity from modern engines using modern fuels and oils. By reasonable
I mean engine life of at least 150,000 to 200,000 miles.


I'd be awful disappointed if my engine wore out at only 150-200K miles.

nate


well i think we'd have to define "wore out". are we talking a quart in
3000 oil consumption? How about a rod knocking? Maybe just a flat cam,
and all else is fine. How about a timing chain failure? Any ONE of
these items do not qualify for a "worn out" engine in my opinion. Now
if we're talking major oil consumption (more than 3 quarts in between
3000 mile oil changes) , Oil pressure next to nil due to worn cam and
main bearings, and lifters clattering , all this using straight 50
weight oil, then i think we'd probably be talking worn out. I had a cam
go flat and ruined roller lifters in a 6.9 diesel that i had religiously
changed the oil in every 3000 miles. That's FORTY FIVE oil changes in
the 135,000 miles before failure. What caused it? Multi-vis oil was
the determination from Ford. They put in a new engine for free. I
still have the service dept yellow copies.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 12/19/2011 3:32 PM, wrote:


It was NOT Multi-Vis oil that killed your cam, it was a defective cam.
It was not an unheard of problem

ACTUALLY, it WAS determined to be the multi-vis oil that caused the
failure. It was not the failure of the camshaft. It was determined
(very early on in the 6.9 days) that the multi-vis oils were reverting
back to their "thin" properties during extended idling periods.
(ambulance use was real hard on them) and what was happening was that
the oil was actually being over cooled and would cool to the point to
form condensation (while running) and the fine little needle bearings on
the roller lifters would RUST. I know , hard to believe, but then the
resulting failure of these little needle bearings would cause the roller
to seize, and consequentially, the cam would be ruined. My particular
vehicle was not an ambulance, but i never shut it off in the winter and
thusly had mucho idle time. Of course, my truck was an '85, (only 2
years into this engines use) and the official determination didn't come
out until about the same time as this failure. I've never used anything
except straight 30 in everything i own since.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 12/19/2011 4:02 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Dec 19, 7:09 pm, Steve wrote:
On 12/19/2011 2:48 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:







On 12/19/2011 05:11 PM, Larry W wrote:
Regarding stop and go, slow speed use in the context of severe service:
Few usage patterns would be more likely to fall in this category than
inner city delivery service. Fleet operators, unlike quickie oil change
establishments, dealer service departments, independant shops, DIY auto
supply stores. etc. have no incentive other than to operate and maintain
their fleets in the most cost effective manner. They have demonstrated
that
it is not necessary to change oil at 3000 mile intervals to get
reasonable
longevity from modern engines using modern fuels and oils. By reasonable
I mean engine life of at least 150,000 to 200,000 miles.

I'd be awful disappointed if my engine wore out at only 150-200K miles.

nate

well i think we'd have to define "wore out". are we talking a quart in
3000 oil consumption? How about a rod knocking? Maybe just a flat cam,
and all else is fine. How about a timing chain failure? Any ONE of
these items do not qualify for a "worn out" engine in my opinion. Now
if we're talking major oil consumption (more than 3 quarts in between
3000 mile oil changes) , Oil pressure next to nil due to worn cam and
main bearings, and lifters clattering , all this using straight 50
weight oil, then i think we'd probably be talking worn out. I had a cam
go flat and ruined roller lifters in a 6.9 diesel that i had religiously
changed the oil in every 3000 miles. That's FORTY FIVE oil changes in
the 135,000 miles before failure. What caused it? Multi-vis oil was
the determination from Ford. They put in a new engine for free. I
still have the service dept yellow copies.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Ford has a history of "soft" cam problems...

wasn't ford's engine.
wasn't a cam failure per se. the seized lifter roller(s) caused it.


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 12/19/2011 4:07 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Dec 19, 5:40 pm, Nate wrote:


Some engines (Toyota, VW turbos) need specific oils to avoid coking or
sludging, apparently. so RTFM people!

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

What is "coking"...is this a "foreign" term?


when you overheat oil that has lost it's additive package effectiveness,
you get 'coke'. It is like carbon. They have also experience 'coking'
on the injectors of the 6.0 liter engine used in the ford pickups, so
now they recommend only a high dollar $ynthetic.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 10:41:08 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

But you raise a good point, and I'm sorry. I started this thread. What
happened was I thought this was of interest to many folks.

It is. I see no reason to be sorry. Many of us have used oil in the
garage too.

How often do you change the oil in your garage? (-"

The issue was simply one of marking an OT thread as OT. HeyBub was
gracious, as always, to apologize, which I agree, was not required. I also
agree that people found it of interest but they apparently find America
bashing, Craftsman "penis tools" and all sorts of other absolute drivel
interesting enough that they just have to reply to them as well. With time
short around the Holidays I was hoping to encourage the more responsible
members of the group to tone it down for the sake of everyone who's imder
time pressure. It just takes a few seconds to type OT for those who use
filters. That's not much to ask.

Lately we're getting sort of knee-deep in anti-American (7 from HomeGuy in 3
weeks - the new Harry) and just plain bizarro trolls (blood coming out of
speakers) that people *insist* on feeding. Ignoring ignoramuses* is Usenet
101. It takes longer to sort through all the trash, especially when, as in
this case, OT is not in the subject heading. That's not very much to ask of
someone creating a subject line, IMHO. If you look at what I wrote, that's
all I really care about - marking OT threads with OT in the subject header.
HeyBub's posts contain enough useful information that I didn't want to plonk
him.

Here's the breakdown of recent OT posts, by poster, both marked OT and not,
FWIW. Some are missing because I've blocked a few of the more idiotic
senders, serial liars and general no-good-niks. (-:

Alex Jones----------12/10----------OBAMA NEEDS TO EITHER GET OUR 170
Alex Jones----------12/8----------Absolute dire emergency danger danger
danger
bv6bv6----------12/7----------A HOME OF TOLERANCE !!!!!!!!!!!!!
daisymae@Dukes----------12/9----------Blood coming out of my stereo speakers
Dean Hoffman----------12/12 ----------OT Eternal?? Home (casket building)
DerbyDad03----------12/9----------OT - Motion Sensing Toilet Paper
GPSMAN----------12/15----------Troll (not really OT)
Harry----------12/15----------Kraut Toilets
Harry----------12/14----------OT.World's biggest trucks.
Harry----------12/14----------OT. Happy (PC) Christmas
HeyBub----------12/16----------Calif says "not so fast" to oil changes
HeyBub----------12/16----------They Ain't Dead Yet
HeyBub----------12/16----------Home Made Stationery Bike
HeyBub----------12/11----------News you can use (rotting corpse in SUV)
HeyBub----------12/1----------31 Things You'll Never Hear a Texan Say...
HomeGuy----------12/15----------Under new bill, Americans can be arrested .
..
HomeGuy----------12/14----------Wyoming Department of Health: Don't Castrate
HomeGuy----------12/12----------How the American Dream turned into a
HomeGuy----------12/11----------Man runs wild with hammer at NH Mall
HomeGuy----------12/10----------Copper Thieves Targeting Dallas Schools
HomeGuy----------12/9----------Urinals for the home - why not?
HomeGuy----------12/8----------Pa. Man Admits Stealing Cemetery Urns
JimT----------12/10----------Urinals Around the Globe
----------12/10----------Craftsmen tools (really about the
poster's penis)
Metspitzer----------12/9----------OT Anyone know if this is useful or
decorative?
Micky----------12/8----------Remember to plan ahead (Mythbuster cannon)
Norminn----------12/10 ----------OT: Christmas gift suggestions for kids who
like
Oren----------12/13----------Door Jam humor (cartoon about sagging tits)
Oren----------12/7----------Seventy years ago today
Percival----------12/12----------OT: Ben & Jerry on "Occupy Wall Street"
Percival----------12/8----------OT: "Minimum wage is enough to live on"
RedGreen----------11/27----------OT - OWS'ers Profile
Stormin Mormon----------12/10----------OT Harrassing Calls
Stormin Mormon----------12/9----------OT - If God texted the ten
commandments
The Gray----------12/12----------Bad Belt
Willshak----------12/7----------OOps. Mythbusters bust more than they
wanted.

*No, it's not ignorami. As with most singular nouns ending in -s, the
plural of "ignoramus" is formed by adding -es. So when one ignoramus finds
true love on the Internet, you have a couple of ignoramuses. "Ignoramus" is
a word borrowed from Latin, however it originates with a verb - "ignorare".
The word "stimulus" for example comes from a noun and retains the plural
ending of -i.

Nouns ending in us get a, i or the s of the English plural:

Singular Foreign plural English plural
corpus corpora
genus genera
alumnu s alumni
bacillus bacilli
cactus cacti cactuses
focus foci
fungus fungi funguses
nucleus nuclei
octopus octopi octopuses
radius radii
stimulus stimuli
syllabus syllabi syllabuses
terminus termini
wuss wussi wusses (humor alert!)

Octopuses are pluralized octopodes in the original Greek.* Lots of other
words have been Americanized in their plural version, leading to great
consternation among editors and proofreaders.

Singular Foreign plural English plural
alga algae
amoeba amoebae amoebas
antenna antennae antennas
formula formulae formulas
larva larvae
nebula nebulae nebulas
vertebra vertebrae

The Oxford English Dictionary[8] lists octopuses, octopi and octopodes (in
that order); it labels octopodes "rare", and notes that octopi derives from
the mistaken assumption that octopus is a second declension Latin noun,
which it is not. Rather, it is (Latinized) Ancient Greek, from okt?pous
(????????), gender masculine, whose plural is okt?podes (?????????). If the
word were native to Latin, it would be octopes ('eight-foot') and the plural
octopedes, analogous to centipedes and millipedes, as the plural form of pes
('foot') is pedes. In modern Greek, it is called khtapódi (???????), gender
neuter, with plural form khtapódia (????????).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_..._ending_in_-us

More than anyone ever wanted to know about plurals.

What's an octopi? 25.132741228718345907701147066236

--
Bobby G.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:

Is your house a vehicle? Does it move around on its own?? Or do
you have to steer it???

Is this Alt.Car.Repair? The subject at least deserved an OT marking.
Too subtle, I guess.

One COULD say that many machines involved in home repair have oil-changing
issues: lawnmowers, edgers, chainsaws, personal vibrators, and so on.

But you raise a good point, and I'm sorry. I started this thread. What
happened was I thought this was of interest to many folks. I don't
subscribe
to alt.car.repair and this group seemed to be the closest, plus this group
is filled with experts, experience, and elan.

With a couple of obvious exceptions.

No apology necessary. I was trying a little dry humor to point out that
you're coming perilously close to "I Hate America" HomeGuy in starting OT
posts. Yours, of course, are a lot less inciteful (mostly g) and more
insightful. Apparently it was interesting enough to enough people that it
generated a fair number of responses although I don't think any agreement
was reached on exactly when to change oil other than - "it depends."

FWIW, your OT posts are always more interesting than crap about bleeding
speakers, Craftsmen penises and all the other drivel people feel compelled
to respond to.

--
Bobby G.

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:02:20 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa
wrote:

On Dec 19, 7:09Â*pm, Steve Barker wrote:
On 12/19/2011 2:48 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:







On 12/19/2011 05:11 PM, Larry W wrote:
Regarding stop and go, slow speed use in the context of severe service:
Few usage patterns would be more likely to fall in this category than
inner city delivery service. Fleet operators, unlike quickie oil change
establishments, dealer service departments, independant shops, DIY auto
supply stores. etc. have no incentive other than to operate and maintain
their fleets in the most cost effective manner. They have demonstrated
that
it is not necessary to change oil at 3000 mile intervals to get
reasonable
longevity from modern engines using modern fuels and oils. By reasonable
I mean engine life of at least 150,000 to 200,000 miles.

I'd be awful disappointed if my engine wore out at only 150-200K miles.

nate

well i think we'd have to define "wore out". Â*are we talking a quart in
3000 oil consumption? Â*How about a rod knocking? Â*Maybe just a flat cam,
and all else is fine. Â*How about a timing chain failure? Â*Any ONE of
these items do not qualify for a "worn out" engine in my opinion. Â*Now
if we're talking major oil consumption (more than 3 quarts in between
3000 mile oil changes) , Oil pressure next to nil due to worn cam and
main bearings, and lifters clattering , all this using straight 50
weight oil, then i think we'd probably be talking worn out. Â*I had a cam
go flat and ruined roller lifters in a 6.9 diesel that i had religiously
changed the oil in every 3000 miles. Â*That's Â*FORTY FIVE oil changes in
the 135,000 miles before failure. Â*What caused it? Â*Multi-vis oil was
the determination from Ford. Â*They put in a new engine for free. Â*I
still have the service dept yellow copies.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Ford has a history of "soft" cam problems...
As does GM.

On Fords, the Pinto, Mustang 2, etc 2300 had a lot of cam trouble in
the south - not as much in the north, and the solution was heavier
oil. Replacing the recommended for C.A.F.E. 5W30 with 20W50 in warm
climates all but eliminated the problem.

GTM had problems too, particularly in the 307 V8, but also in 350 anf
400 SBCs, among others.

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:11:36 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 12/19/2011 07:07 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Dec 19, 5:40 pm, Nate wrote:


Some engines (Toyota, VW turbos) need specific oils to avoid coking or
sludging, apparently. so RTFM people!

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

What is "coking"...is this a "foreign" term?


Not really, it's when you have an engine with parts that tend to get
real hot and heat soak when you shut the engine down and the oil stops
circulating (a perfect example would be a turbocharger) it can actually
cause the oil to turn into hard (relatively) bits of carbon. For that
reason, if I had an engine with a turbocharger that wasn't water-cooled
with some sort of electric water circulation pump (to provide
after-shutdown cooling) I'd only run synthetic (and I believe that the
only oils that meet VW spec for the 1.8T engines are in fact synthetics.)

This is also the reason that in the early days of turbochargers it was
recommended to let the engine idle for a minute or two before shutdown
if it'd been driven hard.

Still a good idea. Water cooled Turos reduced, but did not totally
eliminate the problem. An electric water pump that stays running for a
while after shutdown helps even more - as would an oil circulating
pump.
nate

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:03:11 -0800, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 12/19/2011 3:32 PM, wrote:


It was NOT Multi-Vis oil that killed your cam, it was a defective cam.
It was not an unheard of problem

ACTUALLY, it WAS determined to be the multi-vis oil that caused the
failure. It was not the failure of the camshaft. It was determined
(very early on in the 6.9 days) that the multi-vis oils were reverting
back to their "thin" properties during extended idling periods.
(ambulance use was real hard on them) and what was happening was that
the oil was actually being over cooled and would cool to the point to
form condensation (while running) and the fine little needle bearings on
the roller lifters would RUST. I know , hard to believe, but then the
resulting failure of these little needle bearings would cause the roller
to seize, and consequentially, the cam would be ruined. My particular
vehicle was not an ambulance, but i never shut it off in the winter and
thusly had mucho idle time. Of course, my truck was an '85, (only 2
years into this engines use) and the official determination didn't come
out until about the same time as this failure. I've never used anything
except straight 30 in everything i own since.
OK, EXTENDED DRAIN on Multi-Vis - the MILEAGE was low, but running
hours were high. And using synthetic oil would have made the problem
worse, because synthetic oils are not as effective at reducing
corrosion. The ambulance use is EXTREME. A very extreme example of
SEVERE engine service. - and even straight grade oil would not have
prevented the problem , because the viscosity breakdown due to shear
failure of the long chain hydrocarbons/polymers in the VI Improvers
was just a small part of the problem.

You only told a very SMALL part of the whole story in the original
post - and you left out all the important stuff.

135000 miles of ambulance service is roughly equivalent to 500,000
miles of "normal" service - in some areas even more.

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:11:42 -0800, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 12/19/2011 4:02 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Dec 19, 7:09 pm, Steve wrote:
On 12/19/2011 2:48 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:







On 12/19/2011 05:11 PM, Larry W wrote:
Regarding stop and go, slow speed use in the context of severe service:
Few usage patterns would be more likely to fall in this category than
inner city delivery service. Fleet operators, unlike quickie oil change
establishments, dealer service departments, independant shops, DIY auto
supply stores. etc. have no incentive other than to operate and maintain
their fleets in the most cost effective manner. They have demonstrated
that
it is not necessary to change oil at 3000 mile intervals to get
reasonable
longevity from modern engines using modern fuels and oils. By reasonable
I mean engine life of at least 150,000 to 200,000 miles.

I'd be awful disappointed if my engine wore out at only 150-200K miles.

nate

well i think we'd have to define "wore out". are we talking a quart in
3000 oil consumption? How about a rod knocking? Maybe just a flat cam,
and all else is fine. How about a timing chain failure? Any ONE of
these items do not qualify for a "worn out" engine in my opinion. Now
if we're talking major oil consumption (more than 3 quarts in between
3000 mile oil changes) , Oil pressure next to nil due to worn cam and
main bearings, and lifters clattering , all this using straight 50
weight oil, then i think we'd probably be talking worn out. I had a cam
go flat and ruined roller lifters in a 6.9 diesel that i had religiously
changed the oil in every 3000 miles. That's FORTY FIVE oil changes in
the 135,000 miles before failure. What caused it? Multi-vis oil was
the determination from Ford. They put in a new engine for free. I
still have the service dept yellow copies.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Ford has a history of "soft" cam problems...

wasn't ford's engine.
wasn't a cam failure per se. the seized lifter roller(s) caused it.
International "S" series, when you get right down to it. - and again
, I would make a STRONG case for it NOT being a "multigrade oil
failure"

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:03:11 -0800, Steve Barker
wrote:



My particular
vehicle was not an ambulance, but i never shut it off in the winter and
thusly had mucho idle time. Of course, my truck was an '85, (only 2
years into this engines use) and the official determination didn't come
out until about the same time as this failure. I've never used anything
except straight 30 in everything i own since.

So the fact that you left it idle for hours was not a contributing
factor? Seems like abuse to me when a block heater is all you need in
the cold.

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
On 12/19/2011 05:11 PM, Larry W wrote:
Regarding stop and go, slow speed use in the context of severe service:
Few usage patterns would be more likely to fall in this category than
inner city delivery service. Fleet operators, unlike quickie oil change
establishments, dealer service departments, independant shops, DIY auto
supply stores. etc. have no incentive other than to operate and maintain
their fleets in the most cost effective manner. They have demonstrated
that
it is not necessary to change oil at 3000 mile intervals to get
reasonable
longevity from modern engines using modern fuels and oils. By reasonable
I mean engine life of at least 150,000 to 200,000 miles.


I'd be awful disappointed if my engine wore out at only 150-200K miles.

Seriously. I don't think I've ever bought a car that didn't have AT LEAST
150k miles on it.

On 12/20/2011 3:08 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:03:11 -0800, Steve Barker
wrote:



My particular
vehicle was not an ambulance, but i never shut it off in the winter and
thusly had mucho idle time. Of course, my truck was an '85, (only 2
years into this engines use) and the official determination didn't come
out until about the same time as this failure. I've never used anything
except straight 30 in everything i own since.

So the fact that you left it idle for hours was not a contributing
factor? Seems like abuse to me when a block heater is all you need in
the cold.

yes, the idling was a factor . WITH the multi-vis oil.
AND a block heater does not keep the 20 gallons of fuel warm in the
tank. Idling does.


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 07:03:12 -0800 (PST), BobR

stuff snipped

Give me one valid reason why that shouldn't be the sole discretion of
the public and not the state.

I've not see where anyone says the state should tell you when to
change oil. The state is, however, educating people that the
manufacturer knows better than the oil change store that has a vested
interest in selling you a profit making service.

Exactly. Sometimes just focusing attention on a subject can have pretty
effective results.

As a manufacturer giving a warranty on wear, it is in their best
interest to avoid repairs. If they say longer is OK, it probably is.
They don't want to be doing ring and bearings at 50,000 miles on all
the cars they've sold. That was a common repair at that point in the
1950's. Now, the warranty is often 100k.

Good point. Clearly, *something* has changed to make it viable to offer so
much longer warranties than before.

--
Bobby G.

"Pete C." wrote in message news:4eee07b2$0$20247

stuff snipped

As a manufacturer giving a warranty on wear, it is in their best
interest to avoid repairs. If they say longer is OK, it probably is.
They don't want to be doing ring and bearings at 50,000 miles on all
the cars they've sold. That was a common repair at that point in the
1950's. Now, the warranty is often 100k.

The manufacturers do however have an interest in having the vehicle wear
out shortly after the warranty expires so you buy another.

They must really do a lot of research on the time it takes for something to
fail. There's been more than once that something's failed a month or a
couple of hundred miles after the warranty expired!

--
Bobby G.

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

Do you want your car to be worn out at 120K? By the time I'm finished
with most of my vehicles they have far more miles than that on it. My
pickemup truck is close to 150K miles now, although it's a festering POS.

Piker! (-: My Volvo 144 was still running fine with 300K plus miles on it.
The floorboards had rusted all the way through but the engine was running
great when I finally had to scrap it. It was this tiny four cylinder engine
inside a huge engine compartment. My Chrysler mini-van is just the
opposite. I looked at it the other day when I was winterizing it and
realized that the back three cylinders are impossible to reach without
removing buckets of stuff. Some things have actually gotten worse and easy
access for repairs/maintenance is one of them.

--
Bobby G.

"George" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

Give me one valid reason why that shouldn't be the sole discretion of
the public and not the state.

I thought the point was that California was only trying to change the
thinking about frequent oil changes?

I guess even that counts as Big Government tyranny to some these days. )-:
If California made it a law, then the courts would be flooded with people
trying to sue them for every blown engine in the state, no matter what the
actual cause of "engine death" turned out to be. Motorcide?
Engineslaughter?

--
Bobby G.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 00:46:59 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 07:03:12 -0800 (PST), BobR

stuff snipped

Give me one valid reason why that shouldn't be the sole discretion of
the public and not the state.

I've not see where anyone says the state should tell you when to
change oil. The state is, however, educating people that the
manufacturer knows better than the oil change store that has a vested
interest in selling you a profit making service.

Exactly. Sometimes just focusing attention on a subject can have pretty
effective results.

As a manufacturer giving a warranty on wear, it is in their best
interest to avoid repairs. If they say longer is OK, it probably is.
They don't want to be doing ring and bearings at 50,000 miles on all
the cars they've sold. That was a common repair at that point in the
1950's. Now, the warranty is often 100k.

Good point. Clearly, *something* has changed to make it viable to offer so
much longer warranties than before.
Lead has been removed from gasoline and the choke has been eliminated
by the use of EFI and electronic engine controls in general.. This
accounts for the vast majority of the improvement in engine
reliability and life.

On 12/25/2011 12:21 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 00:46:59 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Ed wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 07:03:12 -0800 (PST), BobR

stuff snipped

Give me one valid reason why that shouldn't be the sole discretion of
the public and not the state.

I've not see where anyone says the state should tell you when to
change oil. The state is, however, educating people that the
manufacturer knows better than the oil change store that has a vested
interest in selling you a profit making service.

Exactly. Sometimes just focusing attention on a subject can have pretty
effective results.

As a manufacturer giving a warranty on wear, it is in their best
interest to avoid repairs. If they say longer is OK, it probably is.
They don't want to be doing ring and bearings at 50,000 miles on all
the cars they've sold. That was a common repair at that point in the
1950's. Now, the warranty is often 100k.

Good point. Clearly, *something* has changed to make it viable to offer so
much longer warranties than before.
Lead has been removed from gasoline and the choke has been eliminated
by the use of EFI and electronic engine controls in general.. This
accounts for the vast majority of the improvement in engine
reliability and life.

The lead in the gasoline lubricated the valve seats in the cylinder
heads of the old engines. Lead was replaced by MTBE to increase the
octane number and that stuff started showing up in the groundwater
as another pollutant that would cause you to grow an extra nose or
something. No matter what we do, there are always unintended results.

TDD

On 12/25/2011 1:21 PM, wrote:
Lead has been removed from gasoline and the choke has been eliminated
by the use of EFI and electronic engine controls in general.. This
accounts for the vast majority of the improvement in engine
reliability and life.

I never knew lead was in any way harmful to engines? What negative
affects did it have?

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 15:29:54 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 12/25/2011 1:21 PM, wrote:
Lead has been removed from gasoline and the choke has been eliminated
by the use of EFI and electronic engine controls in general.. This
accounts for the vast majority of the improvement in engine
reliability and life.

I never knew lead was in any way harmful to engines? What negative
affects did it have?

It contaminated the oil, fouled the plugs, built up inside the engine,
polluted the air causing health problems.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:03:10 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/25/2011 12:21 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 00:46:59 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Ed wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 07:03:12 -0800 (PST), BobR

stuff snipped

Give me one valid reason why that shouldn't be the sole discretion of
the public and not the state.

I've not see where anyone says the state should tell you when to
change oil. The state is, however, educating people that the
manufacturer knows better than the oil change store that has a vested
interest in selling you a profit making service.

Exactly. Sometimes just focusing attention on a subject can have pretty
effective results.

As a manufacturer giving a warranty on wear, it is in their best
interest to avoid repairs. If they say longer is OK, it probably is.
They don't want to be doing ring and bearings at 50,000 miles on all
the cars they've sold. That was a common repair at that point in the
1950's. Now, the warranty is often 100k.

Good point. Clearly, *something* has changed to make it viable to offer so
much longer warranties than before.
Lead has been removed from gasoline and the choke has been eliminated
by the use of EFI and electronic engine controls in general.. This
accounts for the vast majority of the improvement in engine
reliability and life.

The lead in the gasoline lubricated the valve seats in the cylinder
heads of the old engines. Lead was replaced by MTBE to increase the
octane number and that stuff started showing up in the groundwater
as another pollutant that would cause you to grow an extra nose or
something. No matter what we do, there are always unintended results.

TDD
The removal of lead also allowed the use of catalytic converters and
oxygen sensors to control the emissions. And MTBE was not used
universally (and should never have been approved for use)

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 15:29:54 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 12/25/2011 1:21 PM, wrote:
Lead has been removed from gasoline and the choke has been eliminated
by the use of EFI and electronic engine controls in general.. This
accounts for the vast majority of the improvement in engine
reliability and life.

I never knew lead was in any way harmful to engines? What negative
affects did it have?
Lead had a serious problem with deposit build-up un the engines, so
Phosphorous compounds needed to be added along with the lead. This
produced phosphoric and phosphouous acid which accumulated in the
crankcase, causing oil breakdown and bearing pitting, among other
problems - and was also emitted in the exhaust - which ate up exhaust
systems at a high rate.

Even with the phosphorous compounds, valve deposits built up, causing
sticking valves and valve burning - and the deposits in the combustion
chambers increased compression ratios and provided hot spots that
caused detonation damage to engines - and also reqired higher octane
fuel to operate properly.
All in all, the removal of lead from automotive fuel solved a LOT of
problems, beyond removing lead from the environment.

On 12/25/2011 10:52 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:03:10 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/25/2011 12:21 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 00:46:59 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Ed wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 07:03:12 -0800 (PST), BobR

stuff snipped

Give me one valid reason why that shouldn't be the sole discretion of
the public and not the state.

I've not see where anyone says the state should tell you when to
change oil. The state is, however, educating people that the
manufacturer knows better than the oil change store that has a vested
interest in selling you a profit making service.

Exactly. Sometimes just focusing attention on a subject can have pretty
effective results.

As a manufacturer giving a warranty on wear, it is in their best
interest to avoid repairs. If they say longer is OK, it probably is.
They don't want to be doing ring and bearings at 50,000 miles on all
the cars they've sold. That was a common repair at that point in the
1950's. Now, the warranty is often 100k.

Good point. Clearly, *something* has changed to make it viable to offer so
much longer warranties than before.
Lead has been removed from gasoline and the choke has been eliminated
by the use of EFI and electronic engine controls in general.. This
accounts for the vast majority of the improvement in engine
reliability and life.

The lead in the gasoline lubricated the valve seats in the cylinder
heads of the old engines. Lead was replaced by MTBE to increase the
octane number and that stuff started showing up in the groundwater
as another pollutant that would cause you to grow an extra nose or
something. No matter what we do, there are always unintended results.

TDD
The removal of lead also allowed the use of catalytic converters and
oxygen sensors to control the emissions. And MTBE was not used
universally (and should never have been approved for use)

I know all about cataclysmic converters, everyone I know has been
hounding me to install one in the back of my shorts. It has something
to do with toxic gas emissions and also works as a muffler. o_O

TDD

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 02:34:52 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/25/2011 10:52 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:03:10 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/25/2011 12:21 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 00:46:59 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Ed wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 07:03:12 -0800 (PST), BobR

stuff snipped

Give me one valid reason why that shouldn't be the sole discretion of
the public and not the state.

I've not see where anyone says the state should tell you when to
change oil. The state is, however, educating people that the
manufacturer knows better than the oil change store that has a vested
interest in selling you a profit making service.

Exactly. Sometimes just focusing attention on a subject can have pretty
effective results.

As a manufacturer giving a warranty on wear, it is in their best
interest to avoid repairs. If they say longer is OK, it probably is.
They don't want to be doing ring and bearings at 50,000 miles on all
the cars they've sold. That was a common repair at that point in the
1950's. Now, the warranty is often 100k.

Good point. Clearly, *something* has changed to make it viable to offer so
much longer warranties than before.
Lead has been removed from gasoline and the choke has been eliminated
by the use of EFI and electronic engine controls in general.. This
accounts for the vast majority of the improvement in engine
reliability and life.

The lead in the gasoline lubricated the valve seats in the cylinder
heads of the old engines. Lead was replaced by MTBE to increase the
octane number and that stuff started showing up in the groundwater
as another pollutant that would cause you to grow an extra nose or
something. No matter what we do, there are always unintended results.

TDD
The removal of lead also allowed the use of catalytic converters and
oxygen sensors to control the emissions. And MTBE was not used
universally (and should never have been approved for use)

I know all about cataclysmic converters, everyone I know has been
hounding me to install one in the back of my shorts. It has something
to do with toxic gas emissions and also works as a muffler. o_O

TDD
But you need to get the lead out of your ass before it is feasible????

On 12/26/2011 10:48 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 02:34:52 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/25/2011 10:52 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:03:10 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/25/2011 12:21 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 00:46:59 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Ed wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 07:03:12 -0800 (PST), BobR

stuff snipped

Give me one valid reason why that shouldn't be the sole discretion of
the public and not the state.

I've not see where anyone says the state should tell you when to
change oil. The state is, however, educating people that the
manufacturer knows better than the oil change store that has a vested
interest in selling you a profit making service.

Exactly. Sometimes just focusing attention on a subject can have pretty
effective results.

As a manufacturer giving a warranty on wear, it is in their best
interest to avoid repairs. If they say longer is OK, it probably is.
They don't want to be doing ring and bearings at 50,000 miles on all
the cars they've sold. That was a common repair at that point in the
1950's. Now, the warranty is often 100k.

Good point. Clearly, *something* has changed to make it viable to offer so
much longer warranties than before.
Lead has been removed from gasoline and the choke has been eliminated
by the use of EFI and electronic engine controls in general.. This
accounts for the vast majority of the improvement in engine
reliability and life.

The lead in the gasoline lubricated the valve seats in the cylinder
heads of the old engines. Lead was replaced by MTBE to increase the
octane number and that stuff started showing up in the groundwater
as another pollutant that would cause you to grow an extra nose or
something. No matter what we do, there are always unintended results.

TDD
The removal of lead also allowed the use of catalytic converters and
oxygen sensors to control the emissions. And MTBE was not used
universally (and should never have been approved for use)

I know all about cataclysmic converters, everyone I know has been
hounding me to install one in the back of my shorts. It has something
to do with toxic gas emissions and also works as a muffler. o_O

TDD
But you need to get the lead out of your ass before it is feasible????

Lead deposits are the most difficult thing to remove from ones butt. ^_^

TDD

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 11:37:53 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/26/2011 10:48 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 02:34:52 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/25/2011 10:52 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:03:10 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/25/2011 12:21 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 00:46:59 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Ed wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 07:03:12 -0800 (PST), BobR

stuff snipped

Give me one valid reason why that shouldn't be the sole discretion of
the public and not the state.

I've not see where anyone says the state should tell you when to
change oil. The state is, however, educating people that the
manufacturer knows better than the oil change store that has a vested
interest in selling you a profit making service.

Exactly. Sometimes just focusing attention on a subject can have pretty
effective results.

As a manufacturer giving a warranty on wear, it is in their best
interest to avoid repairs. If they say longer is OK, it probably is.
They don't want to be doing ring and bearings at 50,000 miles on all
the cars they've sold. That was a common repair at that point in the
1950's. Now, the warranty is often 100k.

Good point. Clearly, *something* has changed to make it viable to offer so
much longer warranties than before.
Lead has been removed from gasoline and the choke has been eliminated
by the use of EFI and electronic engine controls in general.. This
accounts for the vast majority of the improvement in engine
reliability and life.

The lead in the gasoline lubricated the valve seats in the cylinder
heads of the old engines. Lead was replaced by MTBE to increase the
octane number and that stuff started showing up in the groundwater
as another pollutant that would cause you to grow an extra nose or
something. No matter what we do, there are always unintended results.

TDD
The removal of lead also allowed the use of catalytic converters and
oxygen sensors to control the emissions. And MTBE was not used
universally (and should never have been approved for use)

I know all about cataclysmic converters, everyone I know has been
hounding me to install one in the back of my shorts. It has something
to do with toxic gas emissions and also works as a muffler. o_O

TDD
But you need to get the lead out of your ass before it is feasible????

Lead deposits are the most difficult thing to remove from ones butt. ^_^

A little messy but "000" shouldn't be too hard to remove.