I was surprised to find my local HoPo didn't have any spring-loaded center
punches. Anyone have one/used one they could recommend? Primary use is to
punch out car window if trapped in a flood. Since the 100 year floods
appearing to be coming every 2 years now, I figure it's time to put one in
the glovebox. Not sure what happens to fancy power doors and locks when
they're shorted. I know when floods reach certain levels, car horns start
to sound, which I assume means the harness/electronics failing or that cars
really do have souls and "scream" when they drown. Either way, I think it's
prudent to carry one to pop a window if it ever comes to that.

I pay $100's for insurance that won't actually be able to do anything very
helpful during an underwater situation so I figured I could spend $10 or $20
on something that might prove useful in what I hope is an extremely rare
situation. (And that I could use in the shop, too!) I've only seen it
flood that seriously here before once in . . . well, once in my life,
really. With the bridges of the country in disrepair, who knows what will
happeno?

I've seen EMT's use a combo device that slits belts and punches windows, but
belts are manually operated and wouldn't lock up in a flood situation so
that's probably overkill. I am sure a new dollar mart rectangular letter
opened with a guide slot would work wwww

Any other suggestions?

--
Bobby G.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 11:24:43 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I was surprised to find my local HoPo didn't have any spring-loaded center
punches. Anyone have one/used one they could recommend?

Works for my needs: $2.99

http://www.harborfreight.com/spring-loaded-center-punch-621.html

On Sep 24, 11:24*am, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I was surprised to find my local HoPo didn't have any spring-loaded center
punches. *Anyone have one/used one they could recommend? *Primary use is to
punch out car window if trapped in a flood. *Since the 100 year floods
appearing to be coming every 2 years now, I figure it's time to put one in
the glovebox. *Not sure what happens to fancy power doors and locks when
they're shorted. *I know when floods reach certain levels, car horns start
to sound, which I assume means the harness/electronics failing or that cars
really do have souls and "scream" when they drown. *Either way, I think it's
prudent to carry one to pop a window if it ever comes to that.

Why spring-loaded?

I pay $100's for insurance that won't actually be able to do anything very
helpful during an underwater situation so I figured I could spend $10 or $20
on something that might prove useful in what I hope is an extremely rare
situation. *(And that I could use in the shop, too!) *I've only seen it
flood that seriously here before once in . . . well, once in my life,
really. *With the bridges of the country in disrepair, who knows what will
happen?

I've seen EMT's use a combo device that slits belts and punches windows, but
belts are manually operated and wouldn't lock up in a flood situation so
that's probably overkill. I am sure a new dollar mart rectangular letter
opened with a guide slot would work wwww

It's not a question of whether the belt "locks up" as much as whether
you can get to the release and operate it. Then again it's also a
question of whether in that situation you could get to the emergency
tool.

Any other suggestions?

http://www.amazon.com/Mayday-Window-.../dp/B001B5NEHE

There are also versions with a flashlight and such.

R

On Sep 24, 11:24*am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
Not sure what happens to fancy power doors and locks when
they're shorted.

All the cars I've had with power windows and locks had fairly hardy
circuits that did not run through the computer (likely for exactly
this reason). I would be very surprised if they didn't work underwater
for a few minutes at least. I think I remember someone running tests
on this (Mythbusters maybe) and it wasn't usually a problem.

On the other hand, I wouldn't lose much sleep over paying $2.50 for a
punch just in case...

On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:42:04 -0700 (PDT), Larry Fishel
wrote:

On Sep 24, 11:24*am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
Not sure what happens to fancy power doors and locks when
they're shorted.

All the cars I've had with power windows and locks had fairly hardy
circuits that did not run through the computer (likely for exactly
this reason). I would be very surprised if they didn't work underwater
for a few minutes at least.

I agrree. Water and river water aren't perfect insulators but they
don't carry current as well as wires do. At least once I've had a
non-waterproof flashight under water, and it worked for the few
minutes I used it. Then I dried it out and it still worked. .

OTOH, who knows when the windows will stop working, and the window has
to be open a little to let water in to eventually open the door.

Of course unlock the doors when the flooding starts.

After a colllision, when everything is scrunched together and the
person may have broken bones, it can be hard to get to the seatbelt
latch, but during a flood, it shoudln't be much harder than normal,
except you may be floating off the seat an inch or two.

I think I remember someone running tests
on this (Mythbusters maybe) and it wasn't usually a problem.

On the other hand, I wouldn't lose much sleep over paying $2.50 for a
punch just in case...

On Sep 24, 4:24*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
I was surprised to find my local HoPo didn't have any spring-loaded center
punches. *Anyone have one/used one they could recommend? *Primary use is to
punch out car window if trapped in a flood. *Since the 100 year floods
appearing to be coming every 2 years now, I figure it's time to put one in
the glovebox. *Not sure what happens to fancy power doors and locks when
they're shorted. *I know when floods reach certain levels, car horns start
to sound, which I assume means the harness/electronics failing or that cars
really do have souls and "scream" when they drown. *Either way, I think it's
prudent to carry one to pop a window if it ever comes to that.

I pay $100's for insurance that won't actually be able to do anything very
helpful during an underwater situation so I figured I could spend $10 or $20
on something that might prove useful in what I hope is an extremely rare
situation. *(And that I could use in the shop, too!) *I've only seen it
flood that seriously here before once in . . . well, once in my life,
really. *With the bridges of the country in disrepair, who knows what will
happeno?

I've seen EMT's use a combo device that slits belts and punches windows, but
belts are manually operated and wouldn't lock up in a flood situation so
that's probably overkill. I am sure a new dollar mart rectangular letter
opened with a guide slot would work wwww

Any other suggestions?

--
Bobby G.

If the car goes underwater, the correct procedure is to let it fill up
& then the doors can be opened.
You should go for a test run to familiarise yourself with the
procedure. Drive your car into the river tomorrow! :-)

"Larry Fishel" wrote in message
...
On Sep 24, 11:24 am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
Not sure what happens to fancy power doors and locks when
they're shorted.

All the cars I've had with power windows and locks had fairly hardy
circuits that did not run through the computer (likely for exactly
this reason). I would be very surprised if they didn't work underwater
for a few minutes at least. I think I remember someone running tests
on this (Mythbusters maybe) and it wasn't usually a problem.

On the other hand, I wouldn't lose much sleep over paying $2.50 for a
punch just in case...
__________________________________________________ _____

Thanks to all that replied. $2.50 is cheap at twice the price. Plus, you
never know when you'll pass by a wreck where someone needs to be pulled out.
A window punch is a good thing to have around.

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" wrote in
:

I was surprised to find my local HoPo didn't have any spring-loaded
center punches. Anyone have one/used one they could recommend?
Primary use is to punch out car window if trapped in a flood. Since
the 100 year floods appearing to be coming every 2 years now, I figure
it's time to put one in the glovebox. Not sure what happens to fancy
power doors and locks when they're shorted. I know when floods reach
certain levels, car horns start to sound, which I assume means the
harness/electronics failing or that cars really do have souls and
"scream" when they drown. Either way, I think it's prudent to carry
one to pop a window if it ever comes to that.

I pay $100's for insurance that won't actually be able to do anything
very helpful during an underwater situation so I figured I could spend
$10 or $20 on something that might prove useful in what I hope is an
extremely rare situation. (And that I could use in the shop, too!)
I've only seen it flood that seriously here before once in . . . well,
once in my life, really. With the bridges of the country in
disrepair, who knows what will happeno?

I've seen EMT's use a combo device that slits belts and punches
windows, but belts are manually operated and wouldn't lock up in a
flood situation so that's probably overkill. I am sure a new dollar
mart rectangular letter opened with a guide slot would work wwww

Any other suggestions?

Experience with the Possum Van tells me a ladder works well on the
windshield.


--
Bobby G.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 11:21:57 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

If the car goes underwater, the correct procedure is to let it fill up
& then the doors can be opened.

Some of us in America will just shoot the window out.

Go out the window and not fiddle with a door on its side.

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Sep 24, 11:24 am, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I was surprised to find my local HoPo didn't have any spring-loaded center
punches. Anyone have one/used one they could recommend? Primary use is to
punch out car window if trapped in a flood. Since the 100 year floods
appearing to be coming every 2 years now, I figure it's time to put one in
the glovebox. Not sure what happens to fancy power doors and locks when
they're shorted. I know when floods reach certain levels, car horns start
to sound, which I assume means the harness/electronics failing or that
cars
really do have souls and "scream" when they drown. Either way, I think
it's
prudent to carry one to pop a window if it ever comes to that.

Why spring-loaded?

I'd be worried about being able to swing a hammer with enough force to pop
the window in an emergency situation. The spring loaded jobs are what I've
seen EMTs and firemen use.

I pay $100's for insurance that won't actually be able to do anything very
helpful during an underwater situation so I figured I could spend $10 or
$20
on something that might prove useful in what I hope is an extremely rare
situation. (And that I could use in the shop, too!) I've only seen it
flood that seriously here before once in . . . well, once in my life,
really. With the bridges of the country in disrepair, who knows what will
happen?

I've seen EMT's use a combo device that slits belts and punches windows,
but
belts are manually operated and wouldn't lock up in a flood situation so
that's probably overkill. I am sure a new dollar mart rectangular letter
opened with a guide slot would work wwww

It's not a question of whether the belt "locks up" as much as whether
you can get to the release and operate it. Then again it's also a
question of whether in that situation you could get to the emergency
tool.

I can slip a small spring-loaded punch in the console or even with a
magnetic mount.

Any other suggestions?

http://www.amazon.com/Mayday-Window-.../dp/B001B5NEHE

There are also versions with a flashlight and such.

Looks interesting - thanks. I'll pick up the HF one, I think. Not as
worried about the belts as I am about the windows and doors not opening.

If I end up being hung up in the seat belts, you can be assured I'll die
thinking "RJ was right!" (-:

--
Bobby G.

"Oren" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 11:24:43 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I was surprised to find my local HoPo didn't have any spring-loaded
center
punches. Anyone have one/used one they could recommend?

Works for my needs: $2.99

http://www.harborfreight.com/spring-loaded-center-punch-621.html

Can't believe I forgot about our good friends, HF. The only problem buying
stuff from them is that I usually spend $20 for every $1 worth of stuff that
I really need. (-:

--
Bobby G.

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 11:21:57 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

If the car goes underwater, the correct procedure is to let it fill up
& then the doors can be opened.

This from the country that brought us the Titanic. I'll punch the window
out LONG before the damn car goes all the way under.

Some of us in America will just shoot the window out.



Go out the window and not fiddle with a door on its side.

"micky" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:42:04 -0700 (PDT), Larry Fishel
wrote:

On Sep 24, 11:24 am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
Not sure what happens to fancy power doors and locks when
they're shorted.

All the cars I've had with power windows and locks had fairly hardy
circuits that did not run through the computer (likely for exactly
this reason). I would be very surprised if they didn't work underwater
for a few minutes at least.

I agrree. Water and river water aren't perfect insulators but they
don't carry current as well as wires do. At least once I've had a
non-waterproof flashight under water, and it worked for the few
minutes I used it. Then I dried it out and it still worked. .

I dunno. I distinctly recall seeing a program about a flood and people
watching from a tall hotel building. When the water reached a certain
level, the horns of the cars in the hotel parking lot began sounding.

While I believe that most door and window circuitry is rubber-booted and
generally weathproof, I'm forever cleaning corrosion off my allegedly
weatherproof charging cables. In the winter I keep the cars on trickle
chargers that are in the basement and feed 13 VDC out to the cars through 12
gauge stranded cabled. Both cars have a weathproof connector and fuse
leading from the battery to the front grille so I don't have to even pop the
hood to put them on charge. Turned out to be really useful the night the
door was iced and didn't close fully. The battery would have been dead by
morning without the charger. The are allegedly waterproof but they get
green mighty fast. That reminds me to get a small round file and some WD-40
to clean them up again before the New Ice Age sets him. I'm betting that
the eggheads have it all wrong and that in 20 years we'll be well on our way
to Snowball Earth II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth

cousin of the:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_catastrophe

and close friend of the nickel famine:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ne-oxygen.html

But, as always, I digress . . .

OTOH, who knows when the windows will stop working, and the window has
to be open a little to let water in to eventually open the door.

If you can even open the door. I'll have to look more closely next time I'm
in the van. I think they may operate manually. Since I am getting a new
battery this weekend, it would be a perfect time to run the "can I get out
with no power test."

Of course unlock the doors when the flooding starts.

What if you're a drunken Ted Kennedy? (-: (Sorry dead Teddy, but you *did*
let Mary Jo Kopechne die to save your reputation). I am not sure in a
flooding situation (deaths are actually more often caused by people trying
to drive through water of unknown depth) I would have the presence of mind
to unlock the doors. I believe I would be panicking. (-:

After a colllision, when everything is scrunched together and the
person may have broken bones, it can be hard to get to the seatbelt
latch, but during a flood, it shoudln't be much harder than normal,
except you may be floating off the seat an inch or two.

When I said flood I should have also included driving off into the water for
some odd reason. I spend a lot of time on the Eastern Shore of Maryland and
it's not as hard as you might think to end up in water very quickly. It's
pretty marshy country.

I think I remember someone running tests
on this (Mythbusters maybe) and it wasn't usually a problem.

Even if they proved one car didn't fail, there are an awful lot of car door
variations out there. I would assume the circuits are "battle hardened"
just because they're exposed to pretty wide humidity and temperature
changes. My cars are getting fairly old and rubber gets brittle, etc.

On the other hand, I wouldn't lose much sleep over paying $2.50 for a
punch just in case...

Exactly. I just ordered a fancy carbide tipped one from Amazon and will
pick up one for the other car when next I visit Harbor Freight.

--
Bobby G.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 21:32:56 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:42:04 -0700 (PDT), Larry Fishel
wrote:

On Sep 24, 11:24 am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
Not sure what happens to fancy power doors and locks when
they're shorted.

All the cars I've had with power windows and locks had fairly hardy
circuits that did not run through the computer (likely for exactly
this reason). I would be very surprised if they didn't work underwater
for a few minutes at least.

I agrree. Water and river water aren't perfect insulators but they
don't carry current as well as wires do. At least once I've had a
non-waterproof flashight under water, and it worked for the few
minutes I used it. Then I dried it out and it still worked. .

I dunno. I distinctly recall seeing a program about a flood and people
watching from a tall hotel building. When the water reached a certain
level, the horns of the cars in the hotel parking lot began sounding.

Why would watert short the horn relay, but not short out the battery
so the horns couldn't sound. Why wouldn't the headlights go on, and
the trun signals, etc. Why the horn?

Perhaps the weight of the water on the steering wheel horn button is
what made the horns sound.

While I believe that most door and window circuitry is rubber-booted and
generally weathproof,

I'm not saying anything is weatherproof, just that copper conducts
electricity better than even dirty water.

Another question related to this I have long entertained. Why does
throwing the radio or electric heater in the bathtub kill the person
in the tub? At least in the movies. Why doesn't the current go
through the dirty bathwater to the metal drain, and from there to
ground, in the days when some drains were metal. Why would enough of
it go through someone's body?

If this does happen, I wonder if people pick up the heater and hold it
as they toss it from the tub, making their body a required part of the
path to ground. Wwhen they would be better off getting out of the
tub while leaving the heater, etc. in it.

I'm forever cleaning corrosion off my allegedly
weatherproof charging cables. In the winter I keep the cars on trickle
chargers that are in the basement and feed 13 VDC out to the cars through 12
gauge stranded cabled. Both cars have a weathproof connector and fuse
leading from the battery to the front grille so I don't have to even pop the
hood to put them on charge. Turned out to be really useful the night the
door was iced and didn't close fully. The battery would have been dead by
morning without the charger. The are allegedly waterproof but they get
green mighty fast. That reminds me to get a small round file and some WD-40
to clean them up again before the New Ice Age sets him. I'm betting that
the eggheads have it all wrong and that in 20 years we'll be well on our way
to Snowball Earth II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth

cousin of the:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_catastrophe

and close friend of the nickel famine:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ne-oxygen.html

But, as always, I digress . . .

OTOH, who knows when the windows will stop working, and the window has
to be open a little to let water in to eventually open the door.

If you can even open the door. I'll have to look more closely next time I'm
in the van. I think they may operate manually. Since I am getting a new
battery this weekend, it would be a perfect time to run the "can I get out
with no power test."

Of course unlock the doors when the flooding starts.

What if you're a drunken Ted Kennedy? (-: (Sorry dead Teddy, but you *did*
let Mary Jo Kopechne die to save your reputation). I am not sure in a
flooding situation (deaths are actually more often caused by people trying
to drive through water of unknown depth) I would have the presence of mind
to unlock the doors. I believe I would be panicking. (-:

After a colllision, when everything is scrunched together and the
person may have broken bones, it can be hard to get to the seatbelt
latch, but during a flood, it shoudln't be much harder than normal,
except you may be floating off the seat an inch or two.

When I said flood I should have also included driving off into the water for
some odd reason. I spend a lot of time on the Eastern Shore of Maryland and
it's not as hard as you might think to end up in water very quickly. It's
pretty marshy country.

I think I remember someone running tests
on this (Mythbusters maybe) and it wasn't usually a problem.

Even if they proved one car didn't fail, there are an awful lot of car door
variations out there. I would assume the circuits are "battle hardened"
just because they're exposed to pretty wide humidity and temperature
changes. My cars are getting fairly old and rubber gets brittle, etc.

On the other hand, I wouldn't lose much sleep over paying $2.50 for a
punch just in case...

Exactly. I just ordered a fancy carbide tipped one from Amazon and will
pick up one for the other car when next I visit Harbor Freight.

On Sep 24, 9:32*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
While I believe that most door and window circuitry is rubber-booted and
generally weathproof

You're right that you shouldn't bet on all cars opening underwater,
but weather/waterproofing is not really an issue. Switches, relays and
motors (even the locks usually use motors) usually work just fine
under water at 12 volts without any protection, probably for hours to
days (until something corrodes too much). The battery will probably
leak down before the circuitry fails (maybe not if the computer is
involved).

On Sep 24, 11:09*pm, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 11:21:57 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

If the car goes underwater, the correct procedure is to let it fill up
& then the doors can be opened.

Some of us in America will just shoot the window out.

Go out the window and not fiddle with a door on its side.

Does your six shooter work underwater?

On Sep 25, 7:23*am, Larry Fishel wrote:
On Sep 24, 9:32*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:

While I believe that most door and window circuitry is rubber-booted and
generally weathproof

You're right that you shouldn't bet on all cars opening underwater,
but weather/waterproofing is not really an issue. Switches, relays and
motors (even the locks usually use motors) usually work just fine
under water at 12 volts without any protection, probably for hours to
days (until something corrodes too much). The battery will probably
leak down before the circuitry fails (maybe not if the computer is
involved).

Someone needs to test all this theory out. Any volunteers?

On Sep 25, 2:32*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"micky" wrote in message

...





On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:42:04 -0700 (PDT), Larry Fishel
wrote:

On Sep 24, 11:24 am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
Not sure what happens to fancy power doors and locks when
they're shorted.

All the cars I've had with power windows and locks had fairly hardy
circuits that did not run through the computer (likely for exactly
this reason). I would be very surprised if they didn't work underwater
for a few minutes at least.

I agrree. *Water and river water aren't perfect insulators but they
don't carry current as well as wires do. * At least once I've had a
non-waterproof flashight under water, and it worked for the few
minutes I used it. *Then I dried it out and it still worked. .

I dunno. *I distinctly recall seeing a program about a flood and people
watching from a tall hotel building. *When the water reached a certain
level, the horns of the cars in the hotel parking lot began sounding.

While I believe that most door and window circuitry is rubber-booted and
generally weathproof, I'm forever cleaning corrosion off my allegedly
weatherproof charging cables. In the winter I keep the cars on trickle
chargers that are in the basement and feed 13 VDC out to the cars through 12
gauge stranded cabled. *Both cars have a weathproof connector and fuse
leading from the battery to the front grille so I don't have to even pop the
hood to put them on charge. *Turned out to be really useful the night the
door was iced and didn't close fully. *The battery would have been dead by
morning without the charger. *The are allegedly waterproof but they get
green mighty fast. *That reminds me to get a small round file and some WD-40
to clean them up again before the New Ice Age sets him. * I'm betting that
the eggheads have it all wrong and that in 20 years we'll be well on our way
to Snowball Earth II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth

cousin of the:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_catastrophe

and close friend of the nickel famine:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...nickel-famine-...

But, as always, I digress . . .

OTOH, who knows when the windows will stop working, and the window has
to be open a little to let water in to eventually open the door.

If you can even open the door. *I'll have to look more closely next time I'm
in the van. *I think they may operate manually. *Since I am getting a new
battery this weekend, it would be a perfect time to run the "can I get out
with no power test."

Of course unlock the doors when the flooding starts.

What if you're a drunken Ted Kennedy? *(-: *(Sorry dead Teddy, but you *did*
let Mary Jo Kopechne die to save your reputation). *I am not sure in a
flooding situation (deaths are actually more often caused by people trying
to drive through water of unknown depth) I would have the presence of mind
to unlock the doors. *I believe I would be panicking. *(-:

After a colllision, when everything is scrunched together and the
person may have broken bones, *it can be hard to get to the seatbelt
latch, but during a flood, it shoudln't be much harder than normal,
except you may be floating off the seat an inch or two.

When I said flood I should have also included driving off into the water for
some odd reason. *I spend a lot of time on the Eastern Shore of Maryland and
it's not as hard as you might think to end up in water very quickly. * It's
pretty marshy country.

I think I remember someone running tests
on this (Mythbusters maybe) and it wasn't usually a problem.

Even if they proved one car didn't fail, there are an awful lot of car door
variations out there. *I would assume the circuits are "battle hardened"
just because they're exposed to pretty wide humidity and temperature
changes. * My cars are getting fairly old and rubber gets brittle, etc.

On the other hand, I wouldn't lose much sleep over paying $2.50 for a
punch just in case...

Exactly. *I just ordered a fancy carbide tipped one from Amazon and will
pick up one for the other car when next I visit Harbor Freight.

--
Bobby G.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ah. But will it work if the glass is (part) underwater so damping out
the shock effect?
How about buying a parachute in case you get sucked up by a tornado?

"micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I dunno. I distinctly recall seeing a program about a flood and people
watching from a tall hotel building. When the water reached a certain
level, the horns of the cars in the hotel parking lot began sounding.

Why would watert short the horn relay, but not short out the battery
so the horns couldn't sound. Why wouldn't the headlights go on, and
the trun signals, etc. Why the horn?

Beats me. All I remember is the survivors making a point of how eerie it
sounded in a hotel without power and not much noise when the car horns
started going off in the rising waters, one after the other. Then they
starting gurgling as the water reached the horn's diaphragm and finally went
silent. I know they're relay controlled so I suspect that's the component
that caused the horns to sound. How, I couldn't say.

Perhaps the weight of the water on the steering wheel horn button is
what made the horns sound.

I'd rate that scenario "not likely" I'm afraid.

While I believe that most door and window circuitry is rubber-booted and
generally weatherproof,

I'm not saying anything is weatherproof, just that copper conducts
electricity better than even dirty water.

That doesn't matter, though, in something like a PC circuit board or perhaps
even a relay. That's why so many cellphones die when dumped in the sink or
worse. Flood waters on city streets are probably a hell of lot more
conductive than clean water.

Another question related to this I have long entertained. Why does
throwing the radio or electric heater in the bathtub kill the person
in the tub? At least in the movies. Why doesn't the current go
through the dirty bathwater to the metal drain, and from there to
ground, in the days when some drains were metal. Why would enough of
it go through someone's body?

I think I first saw that in a James Bond film 50 years ago. (-: It sounds
like the Mythbusters might have tackled something like that already. I sure
as hell ain't doing the research!

If this does happen, I wonder if people pick up the heater and hold it
as they toss it from the tub, making their body a required part of the
path to ground. Wwhen they would be better off getting out of the
tub while leaving the heater, etc. in it.

Clearly questions for the theoretical physicists of the group.

--
Bobby G.

Regarding the car horns sounding during flooding: Some cars have a metal
ring within the steering column that connects to the horn button. This
ring turns with the steering wheel. Below and touching this ring is
a small, spring loaded contact, fixed to the non-turning portion of the
steering column. The horn button typically completes a ground circuit.
Because of the bearings etc. the conductive path from the contact through
the ring to the horn button and then to ground is not a very good one, so
the relay that is used needs only a very very tiny current to close
and actuate the horn. For the same reason, the small amount of
current that can flow from the contact to the next nearest ground when
it gets wet is also often enough to close the relay too. This is an
older way of wiring a car horn. More often today, cars use a "clock
spring" harness or cable assembly, which is a kind of wiring
harness that resembles its name, and allows a reliable connection for
the buttons and switches that are sometimes found mounted on the
steering wheel.




--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

On 9/25/2011 8:46 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

stuff snipped

I dunno. I distinctly recall seeing a program about a flood and people
watching from a tall hotel building. When the water reached a certain
level, the horns of the cars in the hotel parking lot began sounding.

Why would watert short the horn relay, but not short out the battery
so the horns couldn't sound. Why wouldn't the headlights go on, and
the trun signals, etc. Why the horn?

Beats me. All I remember is the survivors making a point of how eerie it
sounded in a hotel without power and not much noise when the car horns
started going off in the rising waters, one after the other. Then they
starting gurgling as the water reached the horn's diaphragm and finally went
silent. I know they're relay controlled so I suspect that's the component
that caused the horns to sound. How, I couldn't say.

I'd guess it had to do with car alarms.


Perhaps the weight of the water on the steering wheel horn button is
what made the horns sound.

I'd rate that scenario "not likely" I'm afraid.

While I believe that most door and window circuitry is rubber-booted and
generally weatherproof,

I'm not saying anything is weatherproof, just that copper conducts
electricity better than even dirty water.

That doesn't matter, though, in something like a PC circuit board or perhaps
even a relay. That's why so many cellphones die when dumped in the sink or
worse. Flood waters on city streets are probably a hell of lot more
conductive than clean water.

To prove a point I've already put a working video game pc board into
water and it kept working. The trick is that I didn't get the sensitive
parts like the clock/crystal wet. That will stop it from working, as I
eventually demonstrated. And just for the record, the pc board worked
fine again after it was dry.

You're right that you shouldn't bet on all cars opening underwater,
but weather/waterproofing is not really an issue. Switches, relays and
motors (even the locks usually use motors) usually work just fine
under water at 12 volts without any protection, probably for hours to
days (until something corrodes too much). The battery will probably
leak down before the circuitry fails (maybe not if the computer is
involved).

Every scenario is not the same. If the car lands askew, sometimes the door
is held shut by debris or the bottom. And sometimes, **** happens, and it's
YOUR car that won't function underwater.

I am/was a scuba diver, certified twice, instructor once, and completed hard
hat commercial diving school. I've spent more time in a decompression
chamber than most people have spent underwater.

The scenario of drowning in a car is overblown. If you have ever watched a
demonstration of actual escapes, you will see that you have quite a bit of
time to get out. And popping the window early on with a wall of water just
outside waiting to hit you in the face with all those tiny glass particles
isn't the best idea.

The proper procedure is to follow the air bubble up, and when you are about
to run out of air, pop the window.

DON'T FORGET TO EXHALE SLIGHTLY ON THE WAY TO THE SURFACE, or you'll die
from an air embolism rather than drowning.

Panic is the cause of most deaths in this scenario.

But yes, a spring loaded center punch is worth it's weight in gold in that
scenario.

Steve, NAUI CERTIFIED, NAUI INSTRUCTOR, OCEAN CORPORATION OF COMMERCIAL
DIVING GRADUATE WITH SIX YEARS COMMERCIAL DIVING EXPERIENCE

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 00:35:15 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Sep 24, 11:09*pm, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 11:21:57 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

If the car goes underwater, the correct procedure is to let it fill up
& then the doors can be opened.

Some of us in America will just shoot the window out.

Go out the window and not fiddle with a door on its side.

Does your six shooter work underwater?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ectL29w_9l8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOS8lrdeEbY

"Steve B" wrote in message news:aHIfq.100437

Every scenario is not the same. If the car lands askew, sometimes the
door
is held shut by debris or the bottom. And sometimes, **** happens, and
it's
YOUR car that won't function underwater.

That's my feeling. It's so little cost for something that could have great
value.

I am/was a scuba diver, certified twice, instructor once, and completed
hard
hat commercial diving school. I've spent more time in a decompression
chamber than most people have spent underwater.

The scenario of drowning in a car is overblown.

It's not a common way to die. I wonder if some agency tracks death by
drowning in cars.

Best I could do is:

In Finland e.g. yearly over 50 accidents occur while driving over ice
that is too thin to support the car.

That will put you in a bad situation very quickly.


If you have ever watched a
demonstration of actual escapes, you will see that you have quite a bit of
time to get out. And popping the window early on with a wall of water
just
outside waiting to hit you in the face with all those tiny glass particles
isn't the best idea.

Good point. I hope I can remember it while panicking. Unfortunately, the
best way to insure good, non-panic performance is to train and that's not
too practical.

The proper procedure is to follow the air bubble up, and when you are
about
to run out of air, pop the window.

Doesn't that still push some glass in? I assume it won't be nearly as much,
but it's probably still a good idea to turn away when popping the glass. I
had a huge piece of ice break off the car ahead of me at 65 mph. It
disintegrated the window on the passenger side. I don't think I would have
survived had it hit on the driver side.

DON'T FORGET TO EXHALE SLIGHTLY ON THE WAY TO THE SURFACE, or you'll die
from an air embolism rather than drowning.

From that shallow a depth? (I am assuming 10' feet but 5' could cover a
car.

Panic is the cause of most deaths in this scenario.

That why the God of War, Mars, had two attendants, Phobos and Deimos.
Deimos or (Deimus) was the god (daimon) of fear, dread and terror, and his
twin brother Phobos, of panic fear, flight and battlefield rout. Panic's a
proven killer in a *lot* of scenarios, like the Iroquois Theater fire.
Sometimes, one person who can keep their wits about them can save an awful
lot of people from death.

But yes, a spring loaded center punch is worth it's weight in gold in that
scenario.

I'm convinced. I've seen people try to break out windows without one and
it's a lot tougher than it would seem. They flex but they don't break.

Steve, NAUI CERTIFIED, NAUI INSTRUCTOR, OCEAN CORPORATION OF COMMERCIAL
DIVING GRADUATE WITH SIX YEARS COMMERCIAL DIVING EXPERIENCE

What do commercial divers do? (pardon my ignorance) Bridge support
inspection? Ship repair? Offshore oil rig work?

--
Bobby G.

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 15:45:58 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

But yes, a spring loaded center punch is worth it's weight in gold in that
scenario.

I'm convinced. I've seen people try to break out windows without one and
it's a lot tougher than it would seem. They flex but they don't break.

Tempered glass. Only a small impact is necessary. I have known
tempered dual pane glass that shattered from a golf ball @200 MPH or
such.

Some police batons have a bead on the end. They can shatter tempered
car glass.

"Robert Green" wrote


In Finland e.g. yearly over 50 accidents occur while driving over ice
that is too thin to support the car.

That will put you in a bad situation very quickly.

The temperature of the water is the critical thing. There's a HUGE
difference between cool water and very cold water when it hits you all at
once.


DON'T FORGET TO EXHALE SLIGHTLY ON THE WAY TO THE SURFACE, or you'll die
from an air embolism rather than drowning.

From that shallow a depth? (I am assuming 10' feet but 5' could cover a
car.

You can embolize in three feet of water. Ever see someone breathing through
a reed to escape the bad guys? Go sit in your pool with a hollow rod until
the top of your head is under water. Now try to breathe. You can't do it.


What do commercial divers do? (pardon my ignorance) Bridge support
inspection? Ship repair? Offshore oil rig work?

All of the above. Ship inspection. Laying pipelines. Inspecting behind
other companies to assure things are right. Setting explosives. Sometimes
as simple as cutting ropes out of propellers or hooking on to something
someone's dropped overboard. Like a car or a forklift. Or hundreds of
lengths of drill pipe.


--
Bobby G.



Steve

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 08:46:38 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I dunno. I distinctly recall seeing a program about a flood and people
watching from a tall hotel building. When the water reached a certain
level, the horns of the cars in the hotel parking lot began sounding.

Why would watert short the horn relay, but not short out the battery
so the horns couldn't sound. Why wouldn't the headlights go on, and
the trun signals, etc. Why the horn?

Beats me. All I remember is the survivors making a point of how eerie it
sounded in a hotel without power and not much noise when the car horns
started going off in the rising waters, one after the other. Then they
starting gurgling as the water reached the horn's diaphragm and finally went
silent. I know they're relay controlled so I suspect that's the component
that caused the horns to sound. How, I couldn't say.

Perhaps the weight of the water on the steering wheel horn button is
what made the horns sound.

I'd rate that scenario "not likely" I'm afraid.

While I believe that most door and window circuitry is rubber-booted and
generally weatherproof,

I'm not saying anything is weatherproof, just that copper conducts
electricity better than even dirty water.

That doesn't matter, though, in something like a PC circuit board or perhaps
even a relay. That's why so many cellphones die when dumped in the sink or
worse. Flood waters on city streets are probably a hell of lot more
conductive than clean water.

Another question related to this I have long entertained. Why does
throwing the radio or electric heater in the bathtub kill the person
in the tub? At least in the movies. Why doesn't the current go
through the dirty bathwater to the metal drain, and from there to
ground, in the days when some drains were metal. Why would enough of
it go through someone's body?

I think I first saw that in a James Bond film 50 years ago. (-: It sounds
like the Mythbusters might have tackled something like that already. I sure
as hell ain't doing the research!

That's the trouble. I can never get a volunteer. And I myself am
very busy this week.

If this does happen, I wonder if people pick up the heater and hold it
as they toss it from the tub, making their body a required part of the
path to ground. Wwhen they would be better off getting out of the
tub while leaving the heater, etc. in it.

Clearly questions for the theoretical physicists of the group.

And Tony, you've heard of washing computer keyboards in the
dishwasher?

No soap, NO HEAT on the DRYing part of the cycle.

They say it works well.

"micky" wrote

And Tony, you've heard of washing computer keyboards in the
dishwasher?

No soap, NO HEAT on the DRYing part of the cycle.

They say it works well.

I have heard this before, but didn't try it. It was not until now that I
heard the NO HEAT part. Maybe that's a good thing. ;-) Mine's so dirty, I
may just run it through the delicate cycle on the washing machine with a
couple of pieces of lingerie.

Steve

On Sep 24, 11:08*pm, micky wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 21:32:56 -0400, "Robert Green"
Why would watert short the horn relay, but not short out the battery
so the horns couldn't sound. * Why wouldn't the headlights go on, and
the trun signals, etc. * Why the horn?

The water is not conductive enough to dead short a car battery.
Eventually it would go dead but not instantly.

Why the horn? Because the people who related the experience couldn't
SEE the cars. Odds are other electrical anomalies were going on, but
those are visual. Sound travels around corners and through walls.
Light does not.

On 9/26/2011 1:40 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
Robert Green posted for all of us...


I was surprised to find my local HoPo didn't have any spring-loaded center
punches. Anyone have one/used one they could recommend? Primary use is to
punch out car window if trapped in a flood. Since the 100 year floods
appearing to be coming every 2 years now, I figure it's time to put one in
the glovebox. Not sure what happens to fancy power doors and locks when
they're shorted. I know when floods reach certain levels, car horns start
to sound, which I assume means the harness/electronics failing or that cars
really do have souls and "scream" when they drown. Either way, I think it's
prudent to carry one to pop a window if it ever comes to that.

I pay $100's for insurance that won't actually be able to do anything very
helpful during an underwater situation so I figured I could spend $10 or $20
on something that might prove useful in what I hope is an extremely rare
situation. (And that I could use in the shop, too!) I've only seen it
flood that seriously here before once in . . . well, once in my life,
really. With the bridges of the country in disrepair, who knows what will
happeno?

I've seen EMT's use a combo device that slits belts and punches windows, but
belts are manually operated and wouldn't lock up in a flood situation so
that's probably overkill. I am sure a new dollar mart rectangular letter
opened with a guide slot would work wwww

Any other suggestions?

Are you in the Emergency Services? If not STAY AWAY! An alternative is to make
me the sole beneficiary of your insurance.

NOAA slogan: Don't drown, turn around.

You will ONLY involve MORE EMS personnel in saving your sorry butt.


He wasn't talking about playing rescue man, he was talking about saving
his own ass if he happens to end up parked in a canal unexpectedly.

--
aem sends...

On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 13:31:29 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 08:46:38 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I think I first saw that in a James Bond film 50 years ago. (-: It
sounds
like the Mythbusters might have tackled something like that already. I
sure
as hell ain't doing the research!

That's the trouble. I can never get a volunteer. And I myself am
very busy this week.

When I need to kill someone bathing and a heater's handy, I'll get back to
you. (-:

Damnit, SOMEONE must have weighed in on this befo

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode19

One can be killed by dropping an electrical appliance into a bath full of
water.
confirmed

The current in most electrical appliances is well above the levels the
human body can withstand. The electrocution effect is increased if the
appliance drops farther from the drain or if the water has more salt in it
(such as due to urine or epsom salts). They also proved that devices (and
probably by extension, sockets) with GFCIs are effective at preventing these
electrocutions, as a GFCI-equipped hairdryer cut off on contact with the
water.

I suppose all the hubbub about GFCI's is a tacit admission that it's easier
to get electrocuted in the bathroom than most other rooms in the house.
Especially if James Bond is prowling around.

And Tony, you've heard of washing computer keyboards in the
dishwasher?

No soap, NO HEAT on the DRYing part of the cycle.

They say it works well.

A keyboard is designed to deal with being face up to dirty fingers. Other

BTW IIRC the keyboard was supposed to be top down in the dish washer.

electronics don't seem to swim as well. I have a dead Nikon somewhere that
didn't take to swim. A Black and Decker trickle charger blew out in the
rain (I didn't see that it had tiny ventilation hole cleverly offset to be
almost invisible). Stuff drowns. It's a fact of life. Some stuff drowns
better than others.

One keyboard was like any oher to me, and replacement new ones were 2
dollars at hamfests, until I got used to using 8 of the special keys
on the "multimedia" keyboard.

"micky" wrote in message
stuff snipped
A keyboard is designed to deal with being face up to dirty fingers.
Other

BTW IIRC the keyboard was supposed to be top down in the dish washer.

electronics don't seem to swim as well. I have a dead Nikon somewhere
that
didn't take to swim. A Black and Decker trickle charger blew out in the
rain (I didn't see that it had tiny ventilation hole cleverly offset to
be
almost invisible). Stuff drowns. It's a fact of life. Some stuff
drowns
better than others.

One keyboard was like any oher to me, and replacement new ones were 2
dollars at hamfests, until I got used to using 8 of the special keys
on the "multimedia" keyboard.

I know the feeling, I collect keyboards with enlarged "L" shaped Enter keys
and elongated backspace keys. Once you get used to certain features,
especially in things like keyboards, it's hard to use something different.

I bought Keytronics Lifetime (dirty fu&ing liars!) keyboards because they
had a good feel and good longevity and those two keys in the right places.
They didn't survive (more accurately had more keys go bad) after a distilled
water cleanout. That treatment was tried after paying to ship them back for
repair only to be told "biological matter in keyboard - warranty voided."
Show me one keyboard on earth that doesn't have skin cells and human hair
lodged it in. Or worse.

It's all in the design. Keyboards are also simple circuits. The more low
voltage IC's on a running circuit board, the more damage I think immersion
can do. Keyboards are being washed when off. They might not fare so well
with current running through them when they contact water and don't from
what I recall of drowned keyboards at our company. And that was back when
Compaq had the balls to charge over $100 per replacement keyboard. For
that sin, they were consumed by the hideous monster, HP, who is now puking
up their half-digested corpse.

And who says there's no justice in the world?

--
Bobby G.

On 9/25/2011 9:40 PM, micky wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 08:46:38 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message

stuff snipped

I dunno. I distinctly recall seeing a program about a flood and people
watching from a tall hotel building. When the water reached a certain
level, the horns of the cars in the hotel parking lot began sounding.

Why would watert short the horn relay, but not short out the battery
so the horns couldn't sound. Why wouldn't the headlights go on, and
the trun signals, etc. Why the horn?

Beats me. All I remember is the survivors making a point of how eerie it
sounded in a hotel without power and not much noise when the car horns
started going off in the rising waters, one after the other. Then they
starting gurgling as the water reached the horn's diaphragm and finally went
silent. I know they're relay controlled so I suspect that's the component
that caused the horns to sound. How, I couldn't say.

Perhaps the weight of the water on the steering wheel horn button is
what made the horns sound.

I'd rate that scenario "not likely" I'm afraid.

While I believe that most door and window circuitry is rubber-booted and
generally weatherproof,

I'm not saying anything is weatherproof, just that copper conducts
electricity better than even dirty water.

That doesn't matter, though, in something like a PC circuit board or perhaps
even a relay. That's why so many cellphones die when dumped in the sink or
worse. Flood waters on city streets are probably a hell of lot more
conductive than clean water.

Another question related to this I have long entertained. Why does
throwing the radio or electric heater in the bathtub kill the person
in the tub? At least in the movies. Why doesn't the current go
through the dirty bathwater to the metal drain, and from there to
ground, in the days when some drains were metal. Why would enough of
it go through someone's body?

I think I first saw that in a James Bond film 50 years ago. (-: It sounds
like the Mythbusters might have tackled something like that already. I sure
as hell ain't doing the research!

That's the trouble. I can never get a volunteer. And I myself am
very busy this week.

If this does happen, I wonder if people pick up the heater and hold it
as they toss it from the tub, making their body a required part of the
path to ground. Wwhen they would be better off getting out of the
tub while leaving the heater, etc. in it.

Clearly questions for the theoretical physicists of the group.

And Tony, you've heard of washing computer keyboards in the
dishwasher?

No soap, NO HEAT on the DRYing part of the cycle.

They say it works well.

This is the first I heard of washing keyboards in the dishwasher. Now
all I need is a dishwasher!

"Robert Green" wrote


It's all in the design. Keyboards are also simple circuits.

Because of a broken thumb long ago, and wrist overuse, I can only use the v
shaped keyboards. The others, and the laptops particularly feel like I have
my wrists bound together with a tight zip tie. Currently, I am using a
Microsoft that I have had forever, and it is about to go into the
dishwasher. I just sit down, and my fingers automatically go to the right
place. Plus, there's a division between the keys, in the center. Makes
some typos almost impossible.

Steve

"Steve B" wrote in message
.. .

"Robert Green" wrote


It's all in the design. Keyboards are also simple circuits.

Because of a broken thumb long ago, and wrist overuse, I can only use the
v
shaped keyboards. The others, and the laptops particularly feel like I
have
my wrists bound together with a tight zip tie. Currently, I am using a
Microsoft that I have had forever, and it is about to go into the
dishwasher. I just sit down, and my fingers automatically go to the right
place. Plus, there's a division between the keys, in the center. Makes
some typos almost impossible.

I agree regarding laptop keyboards. They almost all suck - some just more
than others.

I hope that yours survives the immersion. Some do, some don't.

--
Bobby G.

"Tony Miklos" wrote in message
...
On 9/25/2011 9:40 PM, micky wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 08:46:38 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message

stuff snipped

I dunno. I distinctly recall seeing a program about a flood and
people
watching from a tall hotel building. When the water reached a
certain
level, the horns of the cars in the hotel parking lot began sounding.

Why would watert short the horn relay, but not short out the battery
so the horns couldn't sound. Why wouldn't the headlights go on, and
the trun signals, etc. Why the horn?

Beats me. All I remember is the survivors making a point of how eerie
it
sounded in a hotel without power and not much noise when the car horns
started going off in the rising waters, one after the other. Then they
starting gurgling as the water reached the horn's diaphragm and finally
went
silent. I know they're relay controlled so I suspect that's the
component
that caused the horns to sound. How, I couldn't say.

Perhaps the weight of the water on the steering wheel horn button is
what made the horns sound.

I'd rate that scenario "not likely" I'm afraid.

While I believe that most door and window circuitry is rubber-booted
and
generally weatherproof,

I'm not saying anything is weatherproof, just that copper conducts
electricity better than even dirty water.

That doesn't matter, though, in something like a PC circuit board or
perhaps
even a relay. That's why so many cellphones die when dumped in the
sink or
worse. Flood waters on city streets are probably a hell of lot more
conductive than clean water.

Another question related to this I have long entertained. Why does
throwing the radio or electric heater in the bathtub kill the person
in the tub? At least in the movies. Why doesn't the current go
through the dirty bathwater to the metal drain, and from there to
ground, in the days when some drains were metal. Why would enough of
it go through someone's body?

I think I first saw that in a James Bond film 50 years ago. (-: It
sounds
like the Mythbusters might have tackled something like that already. I
sure
as hell ain't doing the research!

That's the trouble. I can never get a volunteer. And I myself am
very busy this week.

If this does happen, I wonder if people pick up the heater and hold it
as they toss it from the tub, making their body a required part of the
path to ground. Wwhen they would be better off getting out of the
tub while leaving the heater, etc. in it.

Clearly questions for the theoretical physicists of the group.

And Tony, you've heard of washing computer keyboards in the
dishwasher?

No soap, NO HEAT on the DRYing part of the cycle.

They say it works well.

This is the first I heard of washing keyboards in the dishwasher. Now
all I need is a dishwasher!

Many problems with keyboards can be solved/prevented by holding them upside
and blowing them out with compressed air. I don't have a dishwasher,
either, but I have two air compressors. (-:

--
Bobby G.

"aemeijers" wrote in message
On 9/26/2011 1:40 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
Robert Green posted for all of us...


I was surprised to find my local HoPo didn't have any spring-loaded
center
punches. Anyone have one/used one they could recommend? Primary use
is to
punch out car window if trapped in a flood. Since the 100 year floods
appearing to be coming every 2 years now, I figure it's time to put one
in
the glovebox. Not sure what happens to fancy power doors and locks
when
they're shorted. I know when floods reach certain levels, car horns
start
to sound, which I assume means the harness/electronics failing or that
cars
really do have souls and "scream" when they drown. Either way, I think
it's
prudent to carry one to pop a window if it ever comes to that.

I pay $100's for insurance that won't actually be able to do anything
very
helpful during an underwater situation so I figured I could spend $10
or $20
on something that might prove useful in what I hope is an extremely
rare
situation. (And that I could use in the shop, too!) I've only seen it
flood that seriously here before once in . . . well, once in my life,
really. With the bridges of the country in disrepair, who knows what
will
happeno?

I've seen EMT's use a combo device that slits belts and punches
windows, but
belts are manually operated and wouldn't lock up in a flood situation
so
that's probably overkill. I am sure a new dollar mart rectangular
letter
opened with a guide slot would work wwww

Any other suggestions?

Are you in the Emergency Services? If not STAY AWAY! An alternative is
to make
me the sole beneficiary of your insurance.

NOAA slogan: Don't drown, turn around.

You will ONLY involve MORE EMS personnel in saving your sorry butt.


He wasn't talking about playing rescue man, he was talking about saving
his own ass if he happens to end up parked in a canal unexpectedly.

Thanks for explaining that. I had no idea WTF Tekkie was so fired up about
so I just let it slide. It sounds like even if I were to come upon someone
trapped in their car, I'd better wait until EMS gets there, even if the
passengers would have drowned/burned by then. Sheesh.

--
Bobby G.