Awl --

Suppose you build something, in yer home shop.
Suppose a neightbor comes by and says, Hey, BillyBob, dats a really neat
whatsit, can I buy it offa you?
SHORE!!! But, I cain't vouch for my welding, matchining, or anything
else.....

Is BillyBob on the hook his neighbor then breaks his ass or pokes his eye
out with BillyBob's whatsit??

Now,
Suppose BillyBob puts the same prototype whatsit (cuz he made a few samples)
on craigslist, or ebay (not knowing that BillyBob just lost an eye on a
similar prototype), with the same disclaimer.
Suppose the craigslist/ebay person then pokes his eye out.

Is BillyBob liable?
Suppose two scenarios: 1. the whatsit actually broke, or 2. the
neighbor/buyer used it in a risky way -- like, say, the prototype was some
RAS, but without the blade guard, with a subsequent missing finger....

How bout if he explicitly stated, This thing could poke yer eye out, take
yer finger off.... ?

Does any of the above change with a mom/pop corporation selling prototypes,
one-offs, etc?

Any experiences/conjectures welcome.
--
EA

On 9/17/2011 2:39 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

Suppose you build something, in yer home shop.
Suppose a neightbor comes by and says, Hey, BillyBob, dats a really neat
whatsit, can I buy it offa you?
SHORE!!! But, I cain't vouch for my welding, matchining, or anything
else.....

Is BillyBob on the hook his neighbor then breaks his ass or pokes his eye
out with BillyBob's whatsit??

Now,
Suppose BillyBob puts the same prototype whatsit (cuz he made a few samples)
on craigslist, or ebay (not knowing that BillyBob just lost an eye on a
similar prototype), with the same disclaimer.
Suppose the craigslist/ebay person then pokes his eye out.

Is BillyBob liable?
Suppose two scenarios: 1. the whatsit actually broke, or 2. the
neighbor/buyer used it in a risky way -- like, say, the prototype was some
RAS, but without the blade guard, with a subsequent missing finger....

How bout if he explicitly stated, This thing could poke yer eye out, take
yer finger off.... ?

Does any of the above change with a mom/pop corporation selling prototypes,
one-offs, etc?

Any experiences/conjectures welcome.

I incorporated my consulting business for this reason.
I could not buy liability insurance. Contractor's accountant put me on
to this site:

http://www.bizfilings.com/

You want the corporation to be liable. Contractors will incorporate
every new housing project for this reason and keep little of their
assets in the corporation.

"Frank" wrote in message
...
I incorporated my consulting business for this reason.
I could not buy liability insurance. Contractor's accountant put me on to
this site:

http://www.bizfilings.com/

You want the corporation to be liable. Contractors will incorporate every
new housing project for this reason and keep little of their assets in the
corporation.

That is why our small ham radio club incorporated. Only about 30 members
and token dues of $ 5 a year. Even put in for a 501C3 or whatever nonprofit
so some businesses would donate things such as ham sandwiches for public
service events to us.

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
Awl --

Suppose you build something, in yer home shop.
Suppose a neightbor comes by and says, Hey, BillyBob, dats a really neat
whatsit, can I buy it offa you?
SHORE!!! But, I cain't vouch for my welding, matchining, or anything
else.....

Is BillyBob on the hook his neighbor then breaks his ass or pokes his eye
out with BillyBob's whatsit??

Now,
Suppose BillyBob puts the same prototype whatsit (cuz he made a few
samples) on craigslist, or ebay (not knowing that BillyBob just lost an
eye on a similar prototype), with the same disclaimer.
Suppose the craigslist/ebay person then pokes his eye out.

Is BillyBob liable?
Suppose two scenarios: 1. the whatsit actually broke, or 2. the
neighbor/buyer used it in a risky way -- like, say, the prototype was some
RAS, but without the blade guard, with a subsequent missing finger....

How bout if he explicitly stated, This thing could poke yer eye out, take
yer finger off.... ?

Does any of the above change with a mom/pop corporation selling
prototypes, one-offs, etc?

Any experiences/conjectures welcome.
--
EA
Several years ago I was subjected to a seminar run by my company's attorney.
Two thoughts have stuck with me.
1) You never want to have to sit in the witness chair.
2) You don't know the answer until the judge tells you.

Be goverened by those.

I no longer will loan out ladders or power tools. I did have a neighbor fall
off a ladder. No injuries but it was a warning to me.

Charlie

On 9/17/2011 2:39 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

Suppose you build something, in yer home shop.
Suppose a neightbor comes by and says, Hey, BillyBob, dats a really neat
whatsit, can I buy it offa you?
SHORE!!! But, I cain't vouch for my welding, matchining, or anything
else.....

Is BillyBob on the hook his neighbor then breaks his ass or pokes his eye
out with BillyBob's whatsit??

Now,
Suppose BillyBob puts the same prototype whatsit (cuz he made a few samples)
on craigslist, or ebay (not knowing that BillyBob just lost an eye on a
similar prototype), with the same disclaimer.
Suppose the craigslist/ebay person then pokes his eye out.

Is BillyBob liable?
Suppose two scenarios: 1. the whatsit actually broke, or 2. the
neighbor/buyer used it in a risky way -- like, say, the prototype was some
RAS, but without the blade guard, with a subsequent missing finger....

How bout if he explicitly stated, This thing could poke yer eye out, take
yer finger off.... ?

Does any of the above change with a mom/pop corporation selling prototypes,
one-offs, etc?

Any experiences/conjectures welcome.

U-Haul builds their own trailers. They used to sell the old ones but
for liability reasons they now dismantle and cut them up into pieces and
sell as scrap metal.

"Existential Angst" fired this volley in
:

Does any of the above change with a mom/pop corporation selling
prototypes, one-offs, etc?

Any experiences/conjectures welcome.

Yep.

My attorney (who's actually got a reputation for being good at this
stuff) told me that even with a RAFT of waivers and hold-harmless
agreements - which _might_ get you off the hook in court - you still can
never prevent someone from suing you. And that's always costly and time-
consuming.

He suggests that before you sell anything with any hazard potential at
all, that you incorporate as an LLC. Then, they can sue the LLC, but if
it's structured right, all they'll get is any insurance the LLC carries,
while your personal assets are protected unless you've been criminally
negligent in allowing something you _knew_ would cause injury to be sold
to people you knew would injure themselves with it.

Incorporating that way is only a few hundred bucks in most states, and
carries with it only a small burden for record keeping and reporting.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Existential Angst" fired this volley in
:

Does any of the above change with a mom/pop corporation selling
prototypes, one-offs, etc?

Any experiences/conjectures welcome.

Yep.

My attorney (who's actually got a reputation for being good at this
stuff) told me that even with a RAFT of waivers and hold-harmless
agreements - which _might_ get you off the hook in court - you still can
never prevent someone from suing you. And that's always costly and time-
consuming.

He suggests that before you sell anything with any hazard potential at
all, that you incorporate as an LLC. Then, they can sue the LLC, but if
it's structured right, all they'll get is any insurance the LLC carries,
while your personal assets are protected unless you've been criminally
negligent in allowing something you _knew_ would cause injury to be sold
to people you knew would injure themselves with it.

Incorporating that way is only a few hundred bucks in most states, and
carries with it only a small burden for record keeping and reporting.

LLoyd

In addition if the state you live in has a homestead act, register your
home and protect it from a lawsuit.

Best Regards
Tom.

"azotic" fired this volley in news:j532ka$kf5$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

In addition if the state you live in has a homestead act, register your
home and protect it from a lawsuit.

My son is handicapped. We signed everything we own into a durable trust
for him; He owns it all. Because he is incompetent to enter into any
agreements with anyone, he cannot be found liable for any form of tort or
contract breach. The trust cannot be touched.

Even if I screwed up and was found liable, they couldn't take the house
away. But the LLC helps improve even that, because it doesn't own
anything but the intellectual rights to what it sells (and usually for
prototypes or one-offs, the customer actually owns those, anyway).

I wouldn't ever deliberately sell anything I knew was going to hurt
someone. However, if I got one of those typical suit notices on my desk
where the customer was careless, and now they are going after everyone
they think may pay for their stupidity, I'd just notify them that the
corporation was dissolved due to insufficient resources to litigate, and
that they were welcome to the proceeds of the dissolution -- which was
whatever petty cash was still in the front desk's drawers when the
corporation went out of business. The desk, of course, would have been
leased, and had to be returned to its owners.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"azotic" fired this volley in news:j532ka$kf5$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

In addition if the state you live in has a homestead act, register your
home and protect it from a lawsuit.

My son is handicapped. We signed everything we own into a durable trust
for him; He owns it all. Because he is incompetent to enter into any
agreements with anyone, he cannot be found liable for any form of tort or
contract breach. The trust cannot be touched.

Even if I screwed up and was found liable, they couldn't take the house
away. But the LLC helps improve even that, because it doesn't own
anything but the intellectual rights to what it sells (and usually for
prototypes or one-offs, the customer actually owns those, anyway).

I wouldn't ever deliberately sell anything I knew was going to hurt
someone. However, if I got one of those typical suit notices on my desk
where the customer was careless, and now they are going after everyone
they think may pay for their stupidity, I'd just notify them that the
corporation was dissolved due to insufficient resources to litigate, and
that they were welcome to the proceeds of the dissolution -- which was
whatever petty cash was still in the front desk's drawers when the
corporation went out of business. The desk, of course, would have been
leased, and had to be returned to its owners.

LLoyd

In todays world you have to make yourself judgement proof. Having been
a defendant i can tell you its a major pain. It took 4 years to settle and
even
when you win you lose. There is no way to recover the lost time and money
spent defending your self. Even if you have no assets to satisfy a judgement
you will probobaly be called as a witness, at the very least you will have
to
give a deposition. We are in dire need of major tort reform.

Best Regards
Tom.

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
Awl --

Suppose you build something, in yer home shop.
Suppose a neightbor comes by and says, Hey, BillyBob, dats
a really neat whatsit, can I buy it offa you?
SHORE!!! But, I cain't vouch for my welding, matchining,
or anything else.....

Is BillyBob on the hook his neighbor then breaks his ass
or pokes his eye out with BillyBob's whatsit??


I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on tv but...
maybe you could do like the phone companies do and force
people into binding arbitration as part of the terms of
service?

In article , says...

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"azotic" fired this volley in news:j532ka$kf5$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

In addition if the state you live in has a homestead act, register your
home and protect it from a lawsuit.

My son is handicapped. We signed everything we own into a durable trust
for him; He owns it all. Because he is incompetent to enter into any
agreements with anyone, he cannot be found liable for any form of tort or
contract breach. The trust cannot be touched.

Even if I screwed up and was found liable, they couldn't take the house
away. But the LLC helps improve even that, because it doesn't own
anything but the intellectual rights to what it sells (and usually for
prototypes or one-offs, the customer actually owns those, anyway).

I wouldn't ever deliberately sell anything I knew was going to hurt
someone. However, if I got one of those typical suit notices on my desk
where the customer was careless, and now they are going after everyone
they think may pay for their stupidity, I'd just notify them that the
corporation was dissolved due to insufficient resources to litigate, and
that they were welcome to the proceeds of the dissolution -- which was
whatever petty cash was still in the front desk's drawers when the
corporation went out of business. The desk, of course, would have been
leased, and had to be returned to its owners.

LLoyd

In todays world you have to make yourself judgement proof. Having been
a defendant i can tell you its a major pain. It took 4 years to settle and
even
when you win you lose. There is no way to recover the lost time and money
spent defending your self. Even if you have no assets to satisfy a judgement
you will probobaly be called as a witness, at the very least you will have
to
give a deposition. We are in dire need of major tort reform.

Not gonna happen as long as lawyers are running the government. The sad
thing is how few people see a conflict of interest with people who
profit from complex laws making the laws.

On Sep 17, 1:39*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

Suppose you build something, in yer home shop.
Suppose a neightbor comes by and says, Hey, BillyBob, dats a really neat
whatsit, can I buy it offa you?
SHORE!!! *But, I cain't vouch for my welding, matchining, or anything
else.....

Is BillyBob on the hook his neighbor then breaks his ass or pokes his eye
out with BillyBob's whatsit??

Now,
Suppose BillyBob puts the same prototype whatsit (cuz he made a few samples)
on craigslist, or ebay (not knowing that BillyBob just lost an eye on a
similar prototype), with the same disclaimer.
Suppose the craigslist/ebay person then pokes his eye out.

Is BillyBob liable?
Suppose two scenarios: *1. the whatsit actually broke, or *2. *the
neighbor/buyer used it in a risky way -- like, say, the prototype was some
RAS, but without the blade guard, with a subsequent missing finger....

How bout if he explicitly stated, This thing could poke yer eye out, take
yer finger off.... * ?

Does any of the above change with a mom/pop corporation selling prototypes,
one-offs, etc?

Any experiences/conjectures welcome.
--
EA

Ah................ disclaimer?
"due to this product being a prototype & not yet fully tested,
seller assumes no responsibility to buyer for any defect,personal
injury or property damage due to negligence , misuse causing failure
of this product."

notery:
by signing here you___________ accept the above terms & conditions
date__________ buyer

________________ seller


that should be enough to scare the **** out of the weak ones that dont
really need the product.


the best one I've seen on milk cases ect. is:

"misuse of this container constitutes theft!"

*******s! stolen milk case!!

Hey it keep me busy making molds for that crap , many years.


---

~g~

On 9/17/2011 4:36 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 9/17/2011 2:39 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

Suppose you build something, in yer home shop.
Suppose a neightbor comes by and says, Hey, BillyBob, dats a really neat
whatsit, can I buy it offa you?
SHORE!!! But, I cain't vouch for my welding, matchining, or anything
else.....

Is BillyBob on the hook his neighbor then breaks his ass or pokes his eye
out with BillyBob's whatsit??

Now,
Suppose BillyBob puts the same prototype whatsit (cuz he made a few
samples)
on craigslist, or ebay (not knowing that BillyBob just lost an eye on a
similar prototype), with the same disclaimer.
Suppose the craigslist/ebay person then pokes his eye out.

Is BillyBob liable?
Suppose two scenarios: 1. the whatsit actually broke, or 2. the
neighbor/buyer used it in a risky way -- like, say, the prototype was
some
RAS, but without the blade guard, with a subsequent missing finger....

How bout if he explicitly stated, This thing could poke yer eye out, take
yer finger off.... ?

Does any of the above change with a mom/pop corporation selling
prototypes,
one-offs, etc?

Any experiences/conjectures welcome.

U-Haul builds their own trailers. They used to sell the old ones but for
liability reasons they now dismantle and cut them up into pieces and
sell as scrap metal.

One of the biggest considerations today is to do as much as you can to
protect yourself from pirate lawyers wanting to transfer wealth to
themselves: "have an accident, call us first", "maybe you have been
hurt and you don't even know it...call us now!"

On 9/17/2011 4:47 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Existential fired this volley in
:

Does any of the above change with a mom/pop corporation selling
prototypes, one-offs, etc?

Any experiences/conjectures welcome.

Yep.

My attorney (who's actually got a reputation for being good at this
stuff) told me that even with a RAFT of waivers and hold-harmless
agreements - which _might_ get you off the hook in court - you still can
never prevent someone from suing you. And that's always costly and time-
consuming.

That is a basic concept of our legal system. You can't sign away your
rights.


He suggests that before you sell anything with any hazard potential at
all, that you incorporate as an LLC. Then, they can sue the LLC, but if
it's structured right, all they'll get is any insurance the LLC carries,
while your personal assets are protected unless you've been criminally
negligent in allowing something you _knew_ would cause injury to be sold
to people you knew would injure themselves with it.

Incorporating that way is only a few hundred bucks in most states, and
carries with it only a small burden for record keeping and reporting.

LLoyd

On 9/17/2011 8:54 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
fired this volley in news:j532ka$kf5$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

In addition if the state you live in has a homestead act, register your
home and protect it from a lawsuit.

My son is handicapped. We signed everything we own into a durable trust
for him; He owns it all. Because he is incompetent to enter into any
agreements with anyone, he cannot be found liable for any form of tort or
contract breach. The trust cannot be touched.

Even if I screwed up and was found liable, they couldn't take the house
away. But the LLC helps improve even that, because it doesn't own
anything but the intellectual rights to what it sells (and usually for
prototypes or one-offs, the customer actually owns those, anyway).

I wouldn't ever deliberately sell anything I knew was going to hurt
someone. However, if I got one of those typical suit notices on my desk
where the customer was careless, and now they are going after everyone
they think may pay for their stupidity, I'd just notify them that the
corporation was dissolved due to insufficient resources to litigate, and
that they were welcome to the proceeds of the dissolution -- which was
whatever petty cash was still in the front desk's drawers when the
corporation went out of business. The desk, of course, would have been
leased, and had to be returned to its owners.

LLoyd

In todays world you have to make yourself judgement proof. Having been
a defendant i can tell you its a major pain. It took 4 years to settle and
even
when you win you lose. There is no way to recover the lost time and money
spent defending your self. Even if you have no assets to satisfy a judgement
you will probobaly be called as a witness, at the very least you will have
to
give a deposition. We are in dire need of major tort reform.

Not gonna happen as long as lawyers are running the government. The sad
thing is how few people see a conflict of interest with people who
profit from complex laws making the laws.

One of the reasons for that is all businesses are portrayed as bad with
those "smart" people in the government the only ones who can help us.
Every business gets lumped into the same category as the Wall St pirates
who were responsible for tanking the economy with the securitization of
mortgages.

On 9/17/2011 6:20 PM, azotic wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"azotic" fired this volley in news:j532ka$kf5$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

In addition if the state you live in has a homestead act, register your
home and protect it from a lawsuit.

My son is handicapped. We signed everything we own into a durable trust
for him; He owns it all. Because he is incompetent to enter into any
agreements with anyone, he cannot be found liable for any form of tort or
contract breach. The trust cannot be touched.

Even if I screwed up and was found liable, they couldn't take the house
away. But the LLC helps improve even that, because it doesn't own
anything but the intellectual rights to what it sells (and usually for
prototypes or one-offs, the customer actually owns those, anyway).

I wouldn't ever deliberately sell anything I knew was going to hurt
someone. However, if I got one of those typical suit notices on my desk
where the customer was careless, and now they are going after everyone
they think may pay for their stupidity, I'd just notify them that the
corporation was dissolved due to insufficient resources to litigate, and
that they were welcome to the proceeds of the dissolution -- which was
whatever petty cash was still in the front desk's drawers when the
corporation went out of business. The desk, of course, would have been
leased, and had to be returned to its owners.

LLoyd

In todays world you have to make yourself judgement proof. Having been
a defendant i can tell you its a major pain. It took 4 years to settle
and even
when you win you lose. There is no way to recover the lost time and money
spent defending your self. Even if you have no assets to satisfy a
judgement
you will probobaly be called as a witness, at the very least you will
have to
give a deposition. We are in dire need of major tort reform.

Best Regards
Tom.
That idea also has downsides. A good friend was involved in a car
accident (an older guy pulled out without looking at a high rate of
speed and crossed over into the lane my friend was in).

Friend was young and just starting out. Guy was judgement proof (had all
of his assets in trusts etc) and only had the state minimum car
insurance. My friend was paying medical bills for years and still has
serious medical issues that can never be repaired.

Existential Angst wrote:

Any experiences/conjectures welcome.

Don't ask or take legal advice from craft/trade newsgroups is one
mistake you never want to mak..

Oh, nevermind..

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
Awl --

Suppose you build something, in yer home shop.
Suppose a neightbor comes by and says, Hey, BillyBob, dats a really
neat whatsit, can I buy it offa you?
SHORE!!! But, I cain't vouch for my welding, matchining, or
anything else.....

Is BillyBob on the hook his neighbor then breaks his ass or pokes
his eye out with BillyBob's whatsit??

Now,
Suppose BillyBob puts the same prototype whatsit (cuz he made a few
samples) on craigslist, or ebay (not knowing that BillyBob just lost
an eye on a similar prototype), with the same disclaimer.
Suppose the craigslist/ebay person then pokes his eye out.

Is BillyBob liable?
Suppose two scenarios: 1. the whatsit actually broke, or 2. the
neighbor/buyer used it in a risky way -- like, say, the prototype
was some RAS, but without the blade guard, with a subsequent missing
finger....

How bout if he explicitly stated, This thing could poke yer eye out,
take yer finger off.... ?

Does any of the above change with a mom/pop corporation selling
prototypes, one-offs, etc?

Any experiences/conjectures welcome.


Lawyers work on a contingency basis and look for "deep pockets". If
your business is incorporated or limited liability and has no money,
then the lawyer will not take the case because there is nothing to
win! If however you are a multi-billion dollar corporation, then the
lawyers will line up to have a go at you...

"George" wrote in message
...
One of the biggest considerations today is to do as much
as you can to protect yourself from pirate lawyers wanting
to transfer wealth to themselves: "have an accident, call
us first", "maybe you have been hurt and you don't even
know it...call us now!"

Everyone deserves to be represented by an attorney in court.
The lawyers are not the problem.
The real problem is caused by gullible jurors.

"Harvey Specter" wrote in message
eb.com...

Everyone deserves to be represented by an attorney in court.
The lawyers are not the problem.
The real problem is caused by gullible jurors.


Limiting awards to actual damages would be a big
improvement. No money for pain and suffering.
Juries need to figure out they don't have to award
more than actual damages to be fair.

Best Regards
Tom.

On 9/18/2011 5:14 PM, Harvey Specter wrote:
wrote in message
...
One of the biggest considerations today is to do as much
as you can to protect yourself from pirate lawyers wanting
to transfer wealth to themselves: "have an accident, call
us first", "maybe you have been hurt and you don't even
know it...call us now!"

Everyone deserves to be represented by an attorney in court.
The lawyers are not the problem.
The real problem is caused by gullible jurors.




Good you straightened that out. I suppose the reason they run those ads
and have their own response teams to get the hospital first after an
accident isn't for their own benefit. All they hope for is to just get
their wages out of the deal.

On 9/18/2011 5:51 PM, azotic wrote:

"Harvey Specter" wrote in message
eb.com...

Everyone deserves to be represented by an attorney in court.
The lawyers are not the problem.
The real problem is caused by gullible jurors.


Limiting awards to actual damages would be a big
improvement. No money for pain and suffering.
Juries need to figure out they don't have to award
more than actual damages to be fair.

Best Regards
Tom.



Let me be the devils advocate. You are in an accident that is no fault
of your own. For example lets say you are at the big box buying a box of
nails and a higher shelf collapses on you. You loose six months of work
and live in uncontrollable pain the rest of your life because of the
injuries you received. Would it be OK with you if the big box insurance
picked up the tab for the medical expenses and paid you six months of
lost wages and then you were on your own?

"George" wrote in message
...
On 9/18/2011 5:51 PM, azotic wrote:

"Harvey Specter" wrote in message
eb.com...

Everyone deserves to be represented by an attorney in court.
The lawyers are not the problem.
The real problem is caused by gullible jurors.


Limiting awards to actual damages would be a big
improvement. No money for pain and suffering.
Juries need to figure out they don't have to award
more than actual damages to be fair.

Best Regards
Tom.



Let me be the devils advocate. You are in an accident that is no fault of
your own. For example lets say you are at the big box buying a box of
nails and a higher shelf collapses on you. You loose six months of work
and live in uncontrollable pain the rest of your life because of the
injuries you received. Would it be OK with you if the big box insurance
picked up the tab for the medical expenses and paid you six months of lost
wages and then you were on your own?

Would money relieve the pain? No. If i got paid for the medical bills and
time lost i would be satisified. People who injur themselves sometimes
suffer pain all thier and lives they and live with it. Lets say a person
cuts
into a high voltage cable to steal the copper and is toasted but survives
should they be able to litigate for pain and suffering?

Best Regards
Tom.

"George" wrote in message
...
On 9/18/2011 5:14 PM, Harvey Specter wrote:
wrote in message
...
One of the biggest considerations today is to do as much
as you can to protect yourself from pirate lawyers
wanting
to transfer wealth to themselves: "have an accident,
call
us first", "maybe you have been hurt and you don't even
know it...call us now!"

Everyone deserves to be represented by an attorney in
court.
The lawyers are not the problem.
The real problem is caused by gullible jurors.




Good you straightened that out. I suppose the reason they
run those ads and have their own response teams to get the
hospital first after an accident isn't for their own
benefit. All they hope for is to just get their wages out
of the deal.

Contingency fees are the only option for most people.

Let me be the devils advocate. You are in an accident that
is no fault
of your own. For example lets say you are at the big box
buying a box of
nails and a higher shelf collapses on you. You loose six
months of work
and live in uncontrollable pain the rest of your life
because of the
injuries you received.

Sound familiar? ;-)

Now unable to work and without income, could you afford to
pay an attorney the upfront fees required to successfully
sue the big box store?

azotic wrote the following:

"Harvey Specter" wrote in message
eb.com...

Everyone deserves to be represented by an attorney in court.
The lawyers are not the problem.
The real problem is caused by gullible jurors.


Limiting awards to actual damages would be a big
improvement. No money for pain and suffering.
Juries need to figure out they don't have to award
more than actual damages to be fair.

Best Regards
Tom.

How about "loss of consortium"?



--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

In article , lid says...

On 9/18/2011 5:51 PM, azotic wrote:

"Harvey Specter" wrote in message
eb.com...

Everyone deserves to be represented by an attorney in court.
The lawyers are not the problem.
The real problem is caused by gullible jurors.


Limiting awards to actual damages would be a big
improvement. No money for pain and suffering.
Juries need to figure out they don't have to award
more than actual damages to be fair.

Best Regards
Tom.



Let me be the devils advocate. You are in an accident that is no fault
of your own. For example lets say you are at the big box buying a box of
nails and a higher shelf collapses on you. You loose six months of work
and live in uncontrollable pain the rest of your life because of the
injuries you received. Would it be OK with you if the big box insurance
picked up the tab for the medical expenses and paid you six months of
lost wages and then you were on your own?

Depends. If it was one of those deals where the thing just let go
without warning I'd classify it as "**** happens". If I was the
fourteenth person it had fallen on then I'd say that some additional
punishment is in order.

Best Regards
Tom.
That idea also has downsides. A good friend was involved in a car
accident (an older guy pulled out without looking at a high rate of
speed and crossed over into the lane my friend was in).

Friend was young and just starting out. Guy was judgement proof (had all
of his assets in trusts etc) and only had the state minimum car
insurance. My friend was paying medical bills for years and still has
serious medical issues that can never be repaired.

Did your friend have auto insurance? His company shopuld have picked
up the tab.

uninsured/underinsured coverage.

Remove 333 to reply.
Randy

On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:38:33 -0700, "Bill"
wrote:

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
Awl --

Suppose you build something, in yer home shop.
Suppose a neightbor comes by and says, Hey, BillyBob, dats a really
neat whatsit, can I buy it offa you?
SHORE!!! But, I cain't vouch for my welding, matchining, or
anything else.....

Is BillyBob on the hook his neighbor then breaks his ass or pokes
his eye out with BillyBob's whatsit??

Now,
Suppose BillyBob puts the same prototype whatsit (cuz he made a few
samples) on craigslist, or ebay (not knowing that BillyBob just lost
an eye on a similar prototype), with the same disclaimer.
Suppose the craigslist/ebay person then pokes his eye out.

Is BillyBob liable?
Suppose two scenarios: 1. the whatsit actually broke, or 2. the
neighbor/buyer used it in a risky way -- like, say, the prototype
was some RAS, but without the blade guard, with a subsequent missing
finger....

How bout if he explicitly stated, This thing could poke yer eye out,
take yer finger off.... ?

Does any of the above change with a mom/pop corporation selling
prototypes, one-offs, etc?

Any experiences/conjectures welcome.


Lawyers work on a contingency basis and look for "deep pockets". If
your business is incorporated or limited liability and has no money,
then the lawyer will not take the case because there is nothing to
win! If however you are a multi-billion dollar corporation, then the
lawyers will line up to have a go at you...


Pennsylvania just passed the Fair Share act.

Remove 333 to reply.
Randy

On 9/18/2011 7:37 PM, Harvey Specter wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 9/18/2011 5:14 PM, Harvey Specter wrote:
wrote in message
...
One of the biggest considerations today is to do as much
as you can to protect yourself from pirate lawyers
wanting
to transfer wealth to themselves: "have an accident,
call
us first", "maybe you have been hurt and you don't even
know it...call us now!"

Everyone deserves to be represented by an attorney in
court.
The lawyers are not the problem.
The real problem is caused by gullible jurors.




Good you straightened that out. I suppose the reason they
run those ads and have their own response teams to get the
hospital first after an accident isn't for their own
benefit. All they hope for is to just get their wages out
of the deal.

Contingency fees are the only option for most people.

Who mentioned contingency fees?

My point is about the really common practice where many/most lawyers are
in business solely to transfer as much wealth as they possibly can to
themselves in whatever way they can. Essentially they realized they
don't need to stand in a dark alley with a hood over their head. They
can dress in a nice suit and pretend they are honorable.



Let me be the devils advocate. You are in an accident that
is no fault
of your own. For example lets say you are at the big box
buying a box of
nails and a higher shelf collapses on you. You loose six
months of work
and live in uncontrollable pain the rest of your life
because of the
injuries you received.

Sound familiar? ;-)

Now unable to work and without income, could you afford to
pay an attorney the upfront fees required to successfully
sue the big box store?

On 9/18/2011 7:25 PM, azotic wrote:

"George" wrote in message
...
On 9/18/2011 5:51 PM, azotic wrote:

"Harvey Specter" wrote in message
eb.com...

Everyone deserves to be represented by an attorney in court.
The lawyers are not the problem.
The real problem is caused by gullible jurors.


Limiting awards to actual damages would be a big
improvement. No money for pain and suffering.
Juries need to figure out they don't have to award
more than actual damages to be fair.

Best Regards
Tom.



Let me be the devils advocate. You are in an accident that is no fault
of your own. For example lets say you are at the big box buying a box
of nails and a higher shelf collapses on you. You loose six months of
work and live in uncontrollable pain the rest of your life because of
the injuries you received. Would it be OK with you if the big box
insurance picked up the tab for the medical expenses and paid you six
months of lost wages and then you were on your own?

Would money relieve the pain? No. If i got paid for the medical bills and
time lost i would be satisified. People who injur themselves sometimes
suffer pain all thier and lives they and live with it. Lets say a person
cuts
into a high voltage cable to steal the copper and is toasted but survives
should they be able to litigate for pain and suffering?

Best Regards
Tom.

Who said anything about a criminal act? You are minding you own business
and through no fault of your own you receive a serious injury.

On 9/19/2011 8:08 AM, Randy333 wrote:

Best Regards
Tom.
That idea also has downsides. A good friend was involved in a car
accident (an older guy pulled out without looking at a high rate of
speed and crossed over into the lane my friend was in).

Friend was young and just starting out. Guy was judgement proof (had all
of his assets in trusts etc) and only had the state minimum car
insurance. My friend was paying medical bills for years and still has
serious medical issues that can never be repaired.

Did your friend have auto insurance? His company shopuld have picked
up the tab.

uninsured/underinsured coverage.

Sure, but you can blow through that pretty quick with serious injuries
and that is what happened.


Remove 333 to reply.
Randy

On 9/19/2011 8:10 AM, Randy333 wrote:
On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:38:33 -0700, "Bill"
wrote:

"Existential wrote in message
Awl --

Suppose you build something, in yer home shop.
Suppose a neightbor comes by and says, Hey, BillyBob, dats a really
neat whatsit, can I buy it offa you?
SHORE!!! But, I cain't vouch for my welding, matchining, or
anything else.....

Is BillyBob on the hook his neighbor then breaks his ass or pokes
his eye out with BillyBob's whatsit??

Now,
Suppose BillyBob puts the same prototype whatsit (cuz he made a few
samples) on craigslist, or ebay (not knowing that BillyBob just lost
an eye on a similar prototype), with the same disclaimer.
Suppose the craigslist/ebay person then pokes his eye out.

Is BillyBob liable?
Suppose two scenarios: 1. the whatsit actually broke, or 2. the
neighbor/buyer used it in a risky way -- like, say, the prototype
was some RAS, but without the blade guard, with a subsequent missing
finger....

How bout if he explicitly stated, This thing could poke yer eye out,
take yer finger off.... ?

Does any of the above change with a mom/pop corporation selling
prototypes, one-offs, etc?

Any experiences/conjectures welcome.


Lawyers work on a contingency basis and look for "deep pockets". If
your business is incorporated or limited liability and has no money,
then the lawyer will not take the case because there is nothing to
win! If however you are a multi-billion dollar corporation, then the
lawyers will line up to have a go at you...


Pennsylvania just passed the Fair Share act.


I live in PA. That might mean one less antique car or some other toy for
a lawyer and really wouldn't stop the way lawyers operate. First thing
they do is look to see how many pockets they can empty.

Without getting into a big story I know someone who legally disposed of
an old car his daughter used going to college. The title was forged by
others and the repaired version of the car was reborn. Sometime later
two kids died in a car fire while according to the toxicology report
were using alcohol and drugs. The lawyers followed the ownership of the
car back and determined how much of his assets could be touched and sued
him for that amount on the basis that there were service bulletins that
were not followed while he owned the car. His money was noise compared
to what they wanted from the auto makers etc but it meant say a new high
end sports car for a lawyer.


Remove 333 to reply.
Randy

On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 08:46:31 -0400, George
wrote:

On 9/18/2011 7:25 PM, azotic wrote:

"George" wrote in message
...
On 9/18/2011 5:51 PM, azotic wrote:

"Harvey Specter" wrote in message
eb.com...

Everyone deserves to be represented by an attorney in court.
The lawyers are not the problem.
The real problem is caused by gullible jurors.


Limiting awards to actual damages would be a big
improvement. No money for pain and suffering.
Juries need to figure out they don't have to award
more than actual damages to be fair.

Best Regards
Tom.



Let me be the devils advocate. You are in an accident that is no fault
of your own. For example lets say you are at the big box buying a box
of nails and a higher shelf collapses on you. You loose six months of
work and live in uncontrollable pain the rest of your life because of
the injuries you received. Would it be OK with you if the big box
insurance picked up the tab for the medical expenses and paid you six
months of lost wages and then you were on your own?

Would money relieve the pain? No. If i got paid for the medical bills and
time lost i would be satisified. People who injur themselves sometimes
suffer pain all thier and lives they and live with it. Lets say a person
cuts
into a high voltage cable to steal the copper and is toasted but survives
should they be able to litigate for pain and suffering?

Best Regards
Tom.

Who said anything about a criminal act? You are minding you own business
and through no fault of your own you receive a serious injury.

A reasonable compromise is to allow juries to award punitive or pain
and suffering damages but cap them at some reasonable multiple of
compensatory damages (say treble or four times) and perhaps also
impose an absolute amount cap (such as $1M).

In article ,
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

A reasonable compromise is to allow juries to award punitive or pain
and suffering damages but cap them at some reasonable multiple of
compensatory damages (say treble or four times) and perhaps also
impose an absolute amount cap (such as $1M).

I think much could be done by limiting class action suits. Many of these
are just fishing expeditions for the attorneys who know what it will
cost the companies to go to trial and submit an offer of settlement that
is right around that.
The last 4 class action suits I have been involved in, I got an
average of $3.00 and the attorneys got an average of just over $ 35
million in fees.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

On 9/19/2011 9:45 AM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 08:46:31 -0400,
wrote:

On 9/18/2011 7:25 PM, azotic wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 9/18/2011 5:51 PM, azotic wrote:

"Harvey wrote in message
eb.com...

Everyone deserves to be represented by an attorney in court.
The lawyers are not the problem.
The real problem is caused by gullible jurors.


Limiting awards to actual damages would be a big
improvement. No money for pain and suffering.
Juries need to figure out they don't have to award
more than actual damages to be fair.

Best Regards
Tom.



Let me be the devils advocate. You are in an accident that is no fault
of your own. For example lets say you are at the big box buying a box
of nails and a higher shelf collapses on you. You loose six months of
work and live in uncontrollable pain the rest of your life because of
the injuries you received. Would it be OK with you if the big box
insurance picked up the tab for the medical expenses and paid you six
months of lost wages and then you were on your own?

Would money relieve the pain? No. If i got paid for the medical bills and
time lost i would be satisified. People who injur themselves sometimes
suffer pain all thier and lives they and live with it. Lets say a person
cuts
into a high voltage cable to steal the copper and is toasted but survives
should they be able to litigate for pain and suffering?

Best Regards
Tom.

Who said anything about a criminal act? You are minding you own business
and through no fault of your own you receive a serious injury.

A reasonable compromise is to allow juries to award punitive or pain
and suffering damages but cap them at some reasonable multiple of
compensatory damages (say treble or four times) and perhaps also
impose an absolute amount cap (such as $1M).

Agree, limits of some sort make sense.

Current problem is the lawyers who aren't happy with their billing rate
and want to go for the kill. They carefully identify every deep pocket
that could possibly maybe have something to do with whatever the damages
are and whip them into a frenzy to get the gazillion dollar awards.

On 9/19/2011 9:51 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In ,
Spehro wrote:

A reasonable compromise is to allow juries to award punitive or pain
and suffering damages but cap them at some reasonable multiple of
compensatory damages (say treble or four times) and perhaps also
impose an absolute amount cap (such as $1M).

I think much could be done by limiting class action suits. Many of these
are just fishing expeditions for the attorneys who know what it will
cost the companies to go to trial and submit an offer of settlement that
is right around that.
The last 4 class action suits I have been involved in, I got an
average of $3.00 and the attorneys got an average of just over $ 35
million in fees.


Thats why class actions are often called the "litigation lottery"
because they can really win big.

Last one I received stated something like "In order to preserve maximum
benefits for the class Dewey, Cheatum and Howe has agreed to accept $29
million. And the class members got a $3 off of next purchase coupon...

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

A reasonable compromise is to allow juries to award punitive or pain
and suffering damages but cap them at some reasonable multiple of
compensatory damages (say treble or four times) and perhaps also
impose an absolute amount cap (such as $1M).

I think much could be done by limiting class action suits. Many of these
are just fishing expeditions for the attorneys who know what it will
cost the companies to go to trial and submit an offer of settlement that
is right around that.

The last 4 class action suits I have been involved in, I got an
average of $3.00 and the attorneys got an average of just over $ 35
million in fees.

You're in the wrong classes. I got a free new phone with many accessories
from Sprint when they decided to change systems and obsolete the old phones.
Got $100 for IBM selling me bad Deskstar hard drives. Sometimes, class
actions bring very reasonable results for the members of the class as well
as the attorneys. In the IBM case, discovery revealed that IBM knew they
had serious quality control problems but shipped the drives anyway. There's
not much you can do when your own emails "indict" you.

I've been invited to join other class actions, but reading the fine print
revealed the "payout" was a discount on MORE crap made by the same vendor,
so I opted out. In fact, I suspect that some of these supposed class
actions were actually scams to dupe people into giving up personal
information because the rewards were ridiculously low - less than it would
cost a vendor them to gain customers through advertising.

--
Bobby G.

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

you.

I've been invited to join other class actions, but reading the fine print
revealed the "payout" was a discount on MORE crap made by the same vendor,
so I opted out. In fact, I suspect that some of these supposed class
actions were actually scams to dupe people into giving up personal
information because the rewards were ridiculously low - less than it would
cost a vendor them to gain customers through advertising.

That has been my experience. I had a similar "class action" with Verizon
back when it was still GTE Mobilnet. Got no money, but I could get a
free earbud for my phone, if I reupped for two years more. Some
punishment, something that probably costs them a buck or two if I extend
my contract. There was NO gain from the suit w/o extending the contract.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

On 9/19/2011 8:44 AM, George wrote:

My point is about the really common practice where many/most lawyers are
in business solely to transfer as much wealth as they possibly can to
themselves in whatever way they can.

That's true for virtually all of us.
Have you ever turned down a pay increase?
I sure as hell have not!

Essentially they realized they
don't need to stand in a dark alley with a hood over their head. They
can dress in a nice suit and pretend they are honorable.

Clearly you have a hard-on for lawyers.

If you ever find yourself needing legal representation, I suggest you
hire a cub scout instead.

In article ,
Ted tedjackson@compuserve.... wrote:

Clearly you have a hard-on for lawyers.

If you ever find yourself needing legal representation, I suggest you
hire a cub scout instead.

You know what sperm and lawyers have in common???












Only one in a million become human.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz