On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 22:01:55 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

In article ,
DD_BobK wrote:
On Sep 15, 3:34Â*pm, (Larry W) wrote:
In article ,









Jon Danniken wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
willshak wrote:
Actually, propane scares the **** out of me.

It does the same to a lot of people and yet all those people think
nothing about riding around for hours on top of 10-20 gallons of
gasoline.

The gasoline itself isn't that dangerous, it's the air and fuel vapor
mixture in the tank that is the explosive part. Â*They build bombs using that
concept, and they are the most powerful bombs made short of a nuke.

Jon

Who is "They" and can you give an example of a powerful bomb that uses
an "air and fuel vapor mixture" as the explosive?

--
Â* Â* Â*The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
Â* Â* Â*with the average voter. Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* (Winston Churchill)

Â* Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

This topic has come up before on a.h.r

FAE is well know in military circles.

All one needs is the mixture of air (oxygen) and a suitable fuel and
an ignition source.

Fuel can be any combustible liquid or combustible solid of fine enough
particles
(hence the danger of empty grain silos or fine wood dust in your shop)

FAE is why the 100ml (3 oz) liquid limit for airline carry on and why
they want to be able to see the stuff.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9xCgNdZPKk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon
http://www.bordeninstitute.army.mil/..._monograph.pdf

cheers
Bob

I'm not disputing that. But I have never heard of a bomb that used a
grain silo or wood shop as one if its parts.
Dry AFEs are in relatively common use as IEDs in the eastern wars.

Having googled for 100 gal propane tanks, it seems that no one sells
these large tanks to the general public. Even eBay does not have any new
or used tanks for sale (Your search returned 0 items).
Anyone have any ideas?

Tractor supply sells them.

I would guess that it depends upon the size of the tank.
Anyone can buy 4.25 lb. grill propane tanks.
I don't know about oxy/acetylene tanks since I haven't used them since
my Navy days 50 years ago, but I remember them having tanks the
thickness of some armored vehicle bodies (not Tanks).

I have seen 100# (pounds not gallon) LPG tanks for sale. I have one but
no longer use it. When I used it, I simply put it in the back of my
car and drove it down to a "re-fill" place. The "re-fill" place was
run out of the office of a trailer park and was set up as much as a
convenience for the trailer owners as outsiders.

Many folks take the 20# tanks to "re-fill" places rather than the tank
exchange places. It's usually about $5 cheaper to re-fill over
exchange. When you tank gets to be "re-proofed" you simply take it to
an exchange place and hope you get one with more time left. Many
exchange places don't give the customer the choice of tank.

There is a "heavy duty" LPG tank intended for use of LPG powered fork
lifts and other wheeled equipment that have a battery powered
counterpart. In many/most places these LPG fork lift trucks with the
heavy duty tanks can be used in large but enclosed spaces like
warehouses. The extra heavy construction makes the tank safe from
being punctured in a "reasonable" industrial accident.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 23:23:07 -0400, John Gilmer
wrote:




I would guess that it depends upon the size of the tank.
Anyone can buy 4.25 lb. grill propane tanks.
I don't know about oxy/acetylene tanks since I haven't used them since
my Navy days 50 years ago, but I remember them having tanks the
thickness of some armored vehicle bodies (not Tanks).

I have seen 100# (pounds not gallon) LPG tanks for sale. I have one but
no longer use it. When I used it, I simply put it in the back of my
car and drove it down to a "re-fill" place. The "re-fill" place was
run out of the office of a trailer park and was set up as much as a
convenience for the trailer owners as outsiders.

Many folks take the 20# tanks to "re-fill" places rather than the tank
exchange places. It's usually about $5 cheaper to re-fill over
exchange. When you tank gets to be "re-proofed" you simply take it to
an exchange place and hope you get one with more time left. Many
exchange places don't give the customer the choice of tank.

There is a "heavy duty" LPG tank intended for use of LPG powered fork
lifts and other wheeled equipment that have a battery powered
counterpart. In many/most places these LPG fork lift trucks with the
heavy duty tanks can be used in large but enclosed spaces like
warehouses. The extra heavy construction makes the tank safe from
being punctured in a "reasonable" industrial accident.



Actually, MOST fork lift tanks are aluminum instead of steel - making
them easier to manhandle - but no stronger than a "camper" tank.

Most are also "liquid takeoff" rather than "vapout take-off" tanks.

"Rico dJour" wrote in message
...
On Sep 16, 3:25 pm, Evan wrote:
On Sep 15, 11:06 pm, "Steve B" wrote:
"Larry Fishel" wrote in message
On Sep 15, 3:37 pm, Rico dJour wrote:

When I was a middling lad a neighbor's house blew up like someone
dropped a bomb on it. A propane tank in the garage somehow went off.
No idea of the size of the tank, but it's an area that the only
propane used is for gas grills. The wife died, the husband lived, and
parts of the house were found hundreds of yards away.

Home made (accidentally) FAE. The tank "going off" would likely have
just burned the house down. If the house was blown into little pieces,
then what most likely happened was that a leaking tank filled the
garage with just the right mixture of propane and air, and some
ignition source detonated that.

reply: My in-law's house was destroyed like that while they were away.
The
blast blew bricks for a long distance. Blew out windows a good ways
away,
too. Sabotage was suspected, as my FIL was involved in a nasty lawsuit
at
the time, but nothing was ever proven. In his case, he had natural gas
appliances. Pilot lights. It would not be hard for someone to enter,
loosen a nut, and be gone. The explosion would be many hours later.

Steve

*OR* a more plausible explanation is a combination of older gas
appliances
which had primitive safety devices in them with a sudden spike or dip
in
the natural gas pressure in the area of your in-laws house blew out a
pilot
light in one of those appliances and the gas built up in the house
until one
of the other pilot lights still lit or a spark from some automatic
electrical
appliance ignited the gas in the house...

Anyone who immediately jumps to assume sabotage without having actual
evidence of that being likely (reports of strange people/vehicles near
a house
that soon after goes BOOM! by impartial witnesses) is a paranoid
idiot...

Steve said sabotage was suspected, not assumed. That's a big
difference and I'm surprised you missed it. The investigator would be
the idiot if they did not investigate fully - even the improbable
causes.

R

reply: The investigation never found a definite cause. In death, there are
natural, homicide, accidental, etc. I don't know what the categories are in
an explosion of this type. I just know what my FIL told me, and that was
that no cause was ever PROVEN beyond a reasonable doubt. The insurance
company paid off, and they just moved to another house.

Some of you put very high assigned values on things that go bump in the
night. What's up with that?

Steve

"willshak" wrote

Propane tank farm fire in Dallas, TX.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n85R3OXK3bs
The 10 minute video was taken from a mile or two away, but the flying
tanks can be seen. Note the fires started by the flying tanks all over the
highway.

I have welded since 1974. I cannot watch that video enough. Some of the
things that stick in my mind are the very large very heavy metal tanks going
hundreds of yards, landing right in the middle of the freeway. And what
amazes me more is the people who slow down and stop to watch this, seemingly
oblivious of an incoming steel tank of 150# at 500 F. Human stupidity and
natural raw power never cease to amaze or amuse me. Too bad one of the
lookie loos didn't sustain a direct hit. Just one, PUHLEEEEZE.

Steve

"willshak" wrote

Propane tank farm fire in Dallas, TX.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n85R3OXK3bs
The 10 minute video was taken from a mile or two away, but the flying
tanks can be seen. Note the fires started by the flying tanks all over the
highway.


This one is short and fun.............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9sSo...eature=related

Jon Danniken wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
willshak wrote:
Actually, propane scares the **** out of me.

It does the same to a lot of people and yet all those people think
nothing about riding around for hours on top of 10-20 gallons of
gasoline.

The gasoline itself isn't that dangerous, it's the air and fuel vapor
mixture in the tank that is the explosive part. They build bombs
using that concept, and they are the most powerful bombs made short
of a nuke.
Jon

Yeah, the vapor.

Along about 1966 I was living on my boat in Ala Wai Harbor in Honolulu.
Just across the channel was Ala Wai Marine...a marine store, drydock, fix
anything place. It was the fourth of July and the marina was closed but one
of the employees was busy doing something directly across from me. Maybe
60-70 yards away. All of a sudden there was a tremendous explosion (and
fire ball) and the guy was dead.

The owner of the marina was a friend of mine and I later talked to him about
the accident. Turned out the guy had been grinding on an old barrel that
had once contained diesel fuel. The barrel had been long empty and had been
filled with water and emptied numerous times - may have been filled with
water at the time, don't recall - but there were still enough vapors left to
explode from the sparks when he cut through with the grinder.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On 2011-09-17, dadiOH wrote:
Jon Danniken wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
willshak wrote:
Actually, propane scares the **** out of me.

It does the same to a lot of people and yet all those people think
nothing about riding around for hours on top of 10-20 gallons of
gasoline.

The gasoline itself isn't that dangerous, it's the air and fuel vapor
mixture in the tank that is the explosive part. They build bombs
using that concept, and they are the most powerful bombs made short
of a nuke.
Jon

Yeah, the vapor.

Along about 1966 I was living on my boat in Ala Wai Harbor in Honolulu.
Just across the channel was Ala Wai Marine...a marine store, drydock, fix
anything place. It was the fourth of July and the marina was closed but one
of the employees was busy doing something directly across from me. Maybe
60-70 yards away. All of a sudden there was a tremendous explosion (and
fire ball) and the guy was dead.

The owner of the marina was a friend of mine and I later talked to him about
the accident. Turned out the guy had been grinding on an old barrel that
had once contained diesel fuel. The barrel had been long empty and had been
filled with water and emptied numerous times - may have been filled with
water at the time, don't recall - but there were still enough vapors left to
explode from the sparks when he cut through with the grinder.


I recently brazed a gasoline tank with no problems. My solution was to
let it dry for a few weeks under the sun, and fill it with water
almost all the way, up to 1/2" away from the top. Nothing happened.

i

Ignoramus8416 wrote:
On 2011-09-17, dadiOH wrote:
Jon Danniken wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
willshak wrote:
Actually, propane scares the **** out of me.

It does the same to a lot of people and yet all those people think
nothing about riding around for hours on top of 10-20 gallons of
gasoline.

The gasoline itself isn't that dangerous, it's the air and fuel
vapor mixture in the tank that is the explosive part. They build
bombs using that concept, and they are the most powerful bombs made
short of a nuke.
Jon

Yeah, the vapor.

Along about 1966 I was living on my boat in Ala Wai Harbor in
Honolulu. Just across the channel was Ala Wai Marine...a marine
store, drydock, fix anything place. It was the fourth of July and
the marina was closed but one of the employees was busy doing
something directly across from me. Maybe 60-70 yards away. All of
a sudden there was a tremendous explosion (and fire ball) and the
guy was dead.

The owner of the marina was a friend of mine and I later talked to
him about the accident. Turned out the guy had been grinding on an
old barrel that had once contained diesel fuel. The barrel had been
long empty and had been filled with water and emptied numerous times
- may have been filled with water at the time, don't recall - but
there were still enough vapors left to explode from the sparks when
he cut through with the grinder.


I recently brazed a gasoline tank with no problems. My solution was to
let it dry for a few weeks under the sun, and fill it with water
almost all the way, up to 1/2" away from the top. Nothing happened.


A veces tienes suerte (sometimes you get lucky). Maybe because gasoline is
more volatile than diesel?



--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:06:44 -0500, Ignoramus8416
wrote:

On 2011-09-17, dadiOH wrote:
Jon Danniken wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
willshak wrote:
Actually, propane scares the **** out of me.

It does the same to a lot of people and yet all those people think
nothing about riding around for hours on top of 10-20 gallons of
gasoline.

The gasoline itself isn't that dangerous, it's the air and fuel vapor
mixture in the tank that is the explosive part. They build bombs
using that concept, and they are the most powerful bombs made short
of a nuke.
Jon

Yeah, the vapor.

Along about 1966 I was living on my boat in Ala Wai Harbor in Honolulu.
Just across the channel was Ala Wai Marine...a marine store, drydock, fix
anything place. It was the fourth of July and the marina was closed but one
of the employees was busy doing something directly across from me. Maybe
60-70 yards away. All of a sudden there was a tremendous explosion (and
fire ball) and the guy was dead.

The owner of the marina was a friend of mine and I later talked to him about
the accident. Turned out the guy had been grinding on an old barrel that
had once contained diesel fuel. The barrel had been long empty and had been
filled with water and emptied numerous times - may have been filled with
water at the time, don't recall - but there were still enough vapors left to
explode from the sparks when he cut through with the grinder.


I recently brazed a gasoline tank with no problems. My solution was to
let it dry for a few weeks under the sun, and fill it with water
almost all the way, up to 1/2" away from the top. Nothing happened.


What kind of tank?
I tried soldering the leaking gas tank seam of a 1976 Chevy Caprice in
1981. Maybe a 20 gallon tank.
Emptied it, put it on the ground and did 3 full fill-agitate-rinse
cycles with detergent laced water, then filled again as much as I
could to solder the seam. Probably 80% full. I could barely detect a
very slight gas smell.

As soon as I put the torch on the seam it exploded flame a yard out
the big sender unit hole. It was quite a bang and knocked me on my
ass.
Lucky I didn't blow my head off.
Went to the boneyard and a got a perfectly good tank for 20 bucks.
Until I stapled my finger 25 years later, trying to solder that tank
was my record for stupidity.
Not knocking your success, but you'll never find me putting heat on a
fuel tank again.

--Vic

On 2011-09-17, dadiOH wrote:
Ignoramus8416 wrote:
On 2011-09-17, dadiOH wrote:
Jon Danniken wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
willshak wrote:
Actually, propane scares the **** out of me.

It does the same to a lot of people and yet all those people think
nothing about riding around for hours on top of 10-20 gallons of
gasoline.

The gasoline itself isn't that dangerous, it's the air and fuel
vapor mixture in the tank that is the explosive part. They build
bombs using that concept, and they are the most powerful bombs made
short of a nuke.
Jon

Yeah, the vapor.

Along about 1966 I was living on my boat in Ala Wai Harbor in
Honolulu. Just across the channel was Ala Wai Marine...a marine
store, drydock, fix anything place. It was the fourth of July and
the marina was closed but one of the employees was busy doing
something directly across from me. Maybe 60-70 yards away. All of
a sudden there was a tremendous explosion (and fire ball) and the
guy was dead.

The owner of the marina was a friend of mine and I later talked to
him about the accident. Turned out the guy had been grinding on an
old barrel that had once contained diesel fuel. The barrel had been
long empty and had been filled with water and emptied numerous times
- may have been filled with water at the time, don't recall - but
there were still enough vapors left to explode from the sparks when
he cut through with the grinder.


I recently brazed a gasoline tank with no problems. My solution was to
let it dry for a few weeks under the sun, and fill it with water
almost all the way, up to 1/2" away from the top. Nothing happened.


A veces tienes suerte (sometimes you get lucky). Maybe because gasoline is
more volatile than diesel?

I would list these reasons:

1) It is more volatile and had enough time and heat to escape most
fumes.
2) 1/2 inch space above water, does not create enough room for a big
conflagration
3) Your neighbor probably embelished things a bit about how much he
purged the barrel
4) Solid oily gunk may have been left in the barrel, and it evaporated
due to heat and then exploded.

i

On 2011-09-17, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:06:44 -0500, Ignoramus8416
wrote:

On 2011-09-17, dadiOH wrote:
Jon Danniken wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
willshak wrote:
Actually, propane scares the **** out of me.

It does the same to a lot of people and yet all those people think
nothing about riding around for hours on top of 10-20 gallons of
gasoline.

The gasoline itself isn't that dangerous, it's the air and fuel vapor
mixture in the tank that is the explosive part. They build bombs
using that concept, and they are the most powerful bombs made short
of a nuke.
Jon

Yeah, the vapor.

Along about 1966 I was living on my boat in Ala Wai Harbor in Honolulu.
Just across the channel was Ala Wai Marine...a marine store, drydock, fix
anything place. It was the fourth of July and the marina was closed but one
of the employees was busy doing something directly across from me. Maybe
60-70 yards away. All of a sudden there was a tremendous explosion (and
fire ball) and the guy was dead.

The owner of the marina was a friend of mine and I later talked to him about
the accident. Turned out the guy had been grinding on an old barrel that
had once contained diesel fuel. The barrel had been long empty and had been
filled with water and emptied numerous times - may have been filled with
water at the time, don't recall - but there were still enough vapors left to
explode from the sparks when he cut through with the grinder.


I recently brazed a gasoline tank with no problems. My solution was to
let it dry for a few weeks under the sun, and fill it with water
almost all the way, up to 1/2" away from the top. Nothing happened.


What kind of tank?
I tried soldering the leaking gas tank seam of a 1976 Chevy Caprice in
1981. Maybe a 20 gallon tank.
Emptied it, put it on the ground and did 3 full fill-agitate-rinse
cycles with detergent laced water, then filled again as much as I
could to solder the seam. Probably 80% full. I could barely detect a
very slight gas smell.

As soon as I put the torch on the seam it exploded flame a yard out
the big sender unit hole. It was quite a bang and knocked me on my
ass.
Lucky I didn't blow my head off.
Went to the boneyard and a got a perfectly good tank for 20 bucks.
Until I stapled my finger 25 years later, trying to solder that tank
was my record for stupidity.
Not knocking your success, but you'll never find me putting heat on a
fuel tank again.

--Vic

I gave mine two weeks to dry under hot sun. Plus, the volume after
filling with water, was minuscule. The first thing I did was stick a
torch inside, to check.

i

i

Ignoramus8416 wrote:
On 2011-09-17, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:06:44 -0500, Ignoramus8416
wrote:

On 2011-09-17, dadiOH wrote:
Jon Danniken wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
willshak wrote:
Actually, propane scares the **** out of me.

It does the same to a lot of people and yet all those people
think nothing about riding around for hours on top of 10-20
gallons of gasoline.

The gasoline itself isn't that dangerous, it's the air and fuel
vapor mixture in the tank that is the explosive part. They build
bombs using that concept, and they are the most powerful bombs
made short of a nuke.
Jon

Yeah, the vapor.

Along about 1966 I was living on my boat in Ala Wai Harbor in
Honolulu. Just across the channel was Ala Wai Marine...a marine
store, drydock, fix anything place. It was the fourth of July and
the marina was closed but one of the employees was busy doing
something directly across from me. Maybe 60-70 yards away. All
of a sudden there was a tremendous explosion (and fire ball) and
the guy was dead.

The owner of the marina was a friend of mine and I later talked to
him about the accident. Turned out the guy had been grinding on
an old barrel that had once contained diesel fuel. The barrel had
been long empty and had been filled with water and emptied
numerous times - may have been filled with water at the time,
don't recall - but there were still enough vapors left to explode
from the sparks when he cut through with the grinder.


I recently brazed a gasoline tank with no problems. My solution was
to let it dry for a few weeks under the sun, and fill it with water
almost all the way, up to 1/2" away from the top. Nothing happened.


What kind of tank?
I tried soldering the leaking gas tank seam of a 1976 Chevy Caprice
in 1981. Maybe a 20 gallon tank.
Emptied it, put it on the ground and did 3 full fill-agitate-rinse
cycles with detergent laced water, then filled again as much as I
could to solder the seam. Probably 80% full. I could barely detect
a very slight gas smell.

As soon as I put the torch on the seam it exploded flame a yard out
the big sender unit hole. It was quite a bang and knocked me on my
ass.
Lucky I didn't blow my head off.
Went to the boneyard and a got a perfectly good tank for 20 bucks.
Until I stapled my finger 25 years later, trying to solder that tank
was my record for stupidity.
Not knocking your success, but you'll never find me putting heat on a
fuel tank again.

--Vic

I gave mine two weeks to dry under hot sun. Plus, the volume after
filling with water, was minuscule. The first thing I did was stick a
torch inside, to check.

I'm glad you are careful.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Sep 17, 4:21*pm, "dadiOH" wrote:
Ignoramus8416 wrote:
On 2011-09-17, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:06:44 -0500, Ignoramus8416
wrote:

On 2011-09-17, dadiOH wrote:
Jon Danniken wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
willshak wrote:
Actually, propane scares the **** out of me.

It does the same to a lot of people and yet all those people
think nothing about riding around for hours on top of 10-20
gallons of gasoline.

The gasoline itself isn't that dangerous, it's the air and fuel
vapor mixture in the tank that is the explosive part. *They build
bombs using that concept, and they are the most powerful bombs
made short of a nuke.
Jon

Yeah, the vapor.

Along about 1966 I was living on my boat in Ala Wai Harbor in
Honolulu. Just across the channel was Ala Wai Marine...a marine
store, drydock, fix anything place. *It was the fourth of July and
the marina was closed but one of the employees was busy doing
something directly across from me. *Maybe 60-70 yards away. *All
of a sudden there was a tremendous explosion (and fire ball) and
the guy was dead.

The owner of the marina was a friend of mine and I later talked to
him about the accident. *Turned out the guy had been grinding on
an old barrel that had once contained diesel fuel. *The barrel had
been long empty and had been filled with water and emptied
numerous times - may have been filled with water at the time,
don't recall - but there were still enough vapors left to explode
from the sparks when he cut through with the grinder.

I recently brazed a gasoline tank with no problems. My solution was
to let it dry for a few weeks under the sun, and fill it with water
almost all the way, up to 1/2" away from the top. Nothing happened.

What kind of tank?
I tried soldering the leaking gas tank seam of a 1976 Chevy Caprice
in 1981. *Maybe a 20 gallon tank.
Emptied it, put it on the ground and did 3 full fill-agitate-rinse
cycles with detergent laced water, then filled again as much as I
could to solder the seam. *Probably 80% full. *I could barely detect
a very slight gas smell.

As soon as I put the torch on the seam it exploded flame a yard out
the big sender unit hole. *It was quite a bang and knocked me on my
ass.
Lucky I didn't blow my head off.
Went to the boneyard and a got a perfectly good tank for 20 bucks.
Until I stapled my finger 25 years later, trying to solder that tank
was my record for stupidity.
Not knocking your success, but you'll never find me putting heat on a
fuel tank again.

--Vic

I gave mine two weeks to dry under hot sun. Plus, the volume after
filling with water, was minuscule. The first thing I did was stick a
torch inside, to check.

I'm glad you are careful.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it athttp://mysite.verizon.net/xico- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We used to weld them all the time. Hook a rubber garage exhaust hose
up to an idling vehicle and stick it over the fill tube. Leave the
sending unit out. Let the vehicle idle for about half an hour. Water
isn't what you want, what you want is to move some air through it.
Gas evaporates easy.

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:06:44 -0500, Ignoramus8416
wrote:

On 2011-09-17, dadiOH wrote:
Jon Danniken wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
willshak wrote:
Actually, propane scares the **** out of me.

It does the same to a lot of people and yet all those people think
nothing about riding around for hours on top of 10-20 gallons of
gasoline.

The gasoline itself isn't that dangerous, it's the air and fuel vapor
mixture in the tank that is the explosive part. They build bombs
using that concept, and they are the most powerful bombs made short
of a nuke.
Jon

Yeah, the vapor.

Along about 1966 I was living on my boat in Ala Wai Harbor in Honolulu.
Just across the channel was Ala Wai Marine...a marine store, drydock, fix
anything place. It was the fourth of July and the marina was closed but one
of the employees was busy doing something directly across from me. Maybe
60-70 yards away. All of a sudden there was a tremendous explosion (and
fire ball) and the guy was dead.

The owner of the marina was a friend of mine and I later talked to him about
the accident. Turned out the guy had been grinding on an old barrel that
had once contained diesel fuel. The barrel had been long empty and had been
filled with water and emptied numerous times - may have been filled with
water at the time, don't recall - but there were still enough vapors left to
explode from the sparks when he cut through with the grinder.


I recently brazed a gasoline tank with no problems. My solution was to
let it dry for a few weeks under the sun, and fill it with water
almost all the way, up to 1/2" away from the top. Nothing happened.

i
And as was stated on this list at the time - you beat the odds. The
odds were not heavily against you, but the POSSIBILITY that the tank
could explode, even when :filled" with water was still there.
If you were brazing a spot that was below the water line your odds
were a whole lot better for having no problem explosion-wize - but the
difficulty of brazing the tank went WAY up.

wrote the following:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:06:44 -0500, Ignoramus8416
wrote:

On 2011-09-17, dadiOH wrote:
Jon Danniken wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
willshak wrote:
Actually, propane scares the **** out of me.
It does the same to a lot of people and yet all those people think
nothing about riding around for hours on top of 10-20 gallons of
gasoline.
The gasoline itself isn't that dangerous, it's the air and fuel vapor
mixture in the tank that is the explosive part. They build bombs
using that concept, and they are the most powerful bombs made short
of a nuke.
Jon
Yeah, the vapor.

Along about 1966 I was living on my boat in Ala Wai Harbor in Honolulu.
Just across the channel was Ala Wai Marine...a marine store, drydock, fix
anything place. It was the fourth of July and the marina was closed but one
of the employees was busy doing something directly across from me. Maybe
60-70 yards away. All of a sudden there was a tremendous explosion (and
fire ball) and the guy was dead.

The owner of the marina was a friend of mine and I later talked to him about
the accident. Turned out the guy had been grinding on an old barrel that
had once contained diesel fuel. The barrel had been long empty and had been
filled with water and emptied numerous times - may have been filled with
water at the time, don't recall - but there were still enough vapors left to
explode from the sparks when he cut through with the grinder.

I recently brazed a gasoline tank with no problems. My solution was to
let it dry for a few weeks under the sun, and fill it with water
almost all the way, up to 1/2" away from the top. Nothing happened.

i
And as was stated on this list at the time - you beat the odds. The
odds were not heavily against you, but the POSSIBILITY that the tank
could explode, even when :filled" with water was still there.
If you were brazing a spot that was below the water line your odds
were a whole lot better for having no problem explosion-wize - but the
difficulty of brazing the tank went WAY up.


You would have a problem Brazing below the water line though. The metal
could not get hot enough to braze. That's like trying to solder a pipe
joint while water is in the pipe.

Here's what some say about preparations for welding on a gas tank.
1. Pour water and detergent mix into the so-called empty tank. Slosh it
around to cover all inside surfaces.
2. pour out the water detergent mix and whatever liquid gas was left.
3. Rinse the tank with water.
4. Turn the tank with the opening up and pour some dry ice into the tank.
Dry ice skips the liquid stage and goes from a solid to carbon dioxide
gas. Carbon dioxide fumes will fill the tank, pushing up and out any
fumes suspended in the tank. Additionally, CO2 will not support
ignition. That's why they put it in fire extinquishers.
Weld to your hearts content.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:54:04 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote:

On Sep 17, 4:21Â*pm, "dadiOH" wrote:
Ignoramus8416 wrote:
On 2011-09-17, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:06:44 -0500, Ignoramus8416
wrote:

On 2011-09-17, dadiOH wrote:
Jon Danniken wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
willshak wrote:
Actually, propane scares the **** out of me.

It does the same to a lot of people and yet all those people
think nothing about riding around for hours on top of 10-20
gallons of gasoline.

The gasoline itself isn't that dangerous, it's the air and fuel
vapor mixture in the tank that is the explosive part. Â*They build
bombs using that concept, and they are the most powerful bombs
made short of a nuke.
Jon

Yeah, the vapor.

Along about 1966 I was living on my boat in Ala Wai Harbor in
Honolulu. Just across the channel was Ala Wai Marine...a marine
store, drydock, fix anything place. Â*It was the fourth of July and
the marina was closed but one of the employees was busy doing
something directly across from me. Â*Maybe 60-70 yards away. Â*All
of a sudden there was a tremendous explosion (and fire ball) and
the guy was dead.

The owner of the marina was a friend of mine and I later talked to
him about the accident. Â*Turned out the guy had been grinding on
an old barrel that had once contained diesel fuel. Â*The barrel had
been long empty and had been filled with water and emptied
numerous times - may have been filled with water at the time,
don't recall - but there were still enough vapors left to explode
from the sparks when he cut through with the grinder.

I recently brazed a gasoline tank with no problems. My solution was
to let it dry for a few weeks under the sun, and fill it with water
almost all the way, up to 1/2" away from the top. Nothing happened.

What kind of tank?
I tried soldering the leaking gas tank seam of a 1976 Chevy Caprice
in 1981. Â*Maybe a 20 gallon tank.
Emptied it, put it on the ground and did 3 full fill-agitate-rinse
cycles with detergent laced water, then filled again as much as I
could to solder the seam. Â*Probably 80% full. Â*I could barely detect
a very slight gas smell.

As soon as I put the torch on the seam it exploded flame a yard out
the big sender unit hole. Â*It was quite a bang and knocked me on my
ass.
Lucky I didn't blow my head off.
Went to the boneyard and a got a perfectly good tank for 20 bucks.
Until I stapled my finger 25 years later, trying to solder that tank
was my record for stupidity.
Not knocking your success, but you'll never find me putting heat on a
fuel tank again.

--Vic

I gave mine two weeks to dry under hot sun. Plus, the volume after
filling with water, was minuscule. The first thing I did was stick a
torch inside, to check.

I'm glad you are careful.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it athttp://mysite.verizon.net/xico- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We used to weld them all the time. Hook a rubber garage exhaust hose
up to an idling vehicle and stick it over the fill tube. Leave the
sending unit out. Let the vehicle idle for about half an hour. Water
isn't what you want, what you want is to move some air through it.
Gas evaporates easy.
It is not just moving AIR. HOT AIR helps - and so does CARBON
DIOXIDE. So you want an engine that is running hot and efficient -
Carbon MONOXIDE is NOT what you want in the tank, as it can still
burn.
When I need to weld a fuel tank or oil pan or similar device I fill
the container with CARBON DIOXIDE from a fire extinguisher. Dry Ice
can also be used. Carbon Dioxide is heavier than air so will displace
any oxygen in the container - it will not support combustion, and it
will not absorb great amounts of heat, making sldering/brazing/welding
difficult. As long as the repair site is below the level of the CO2,
the repair is safe. NEVER weld or braze on the TOP of the container
because it is POSSIBLE there is trapped air/fuel in a pocket at the
top.
With CO2 leaking out of the repair site there is no chance of fuel-gas
fronm the torch getting into the tank unburned and "going off" as some
bozo in a former thread on this subject suggested as the cause of a
possible explosion.

"Steve B" wrote in message
. ..

"willshak" wrote

Propane tank farm fire in Dallas, TX.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n85R3OXK3bs
The 10 minute video was taken from a mile or two away, but the flying
tanks can be seen. Note the fires started by the flying tanks all over
the
highway.

I have welded since 1974. I cannot watch that video enough. Some of the
things that stick in my mind are the very large very heavy metal tanks
going
hundreds of yards, landing right in the middle of the freeway. And what
amazes me more is the people who slow down and stop to watch this,
seemingly
oblivious of an incoming steel tank of 150# at 500 F.

Rubbernecking. It's why in many areas they have erected fences in the
median to keep people from slowing down (and thus getting rear-ended) to
look at an accident on the other side of the road. I remember once when I
was a photojournalist an arson investigator said that the arsonist always
hangs around to see his handiwork. So I started taking pictures of the
crowd. The number of people standing around (even dangerous scenes) with
their mouths wide open, looking stupefied amazed me. People are drawn to
disasters like moths to a flame and often meet the same fate.

Human stupidity and
natural raw power never cease to amaze or amuse me. Too bad one of the
lookie loos didn't sustain a direct hit. Just one, PUHLEEEEZE.

It wouldn't have mattered. People still went to the Reno air show where 9
died after we had a number of air show accidents in a row. The "it can't
happen to me" syndrome is a very powerful one, as the Youtube video
demonstrates. People react very oddly to danger. Probably the most
gruesome example I can think of was a film of people walking out into a bay
drained of water by a tidal wave. I used to think they were idiots that
were unaware that some tidal waves drain some areas BEFORE a huge rebound
but I now think they knew but were irresistibly drawn to the strangeness of
the situation. And they died a pretty horrible death.

--
Bobby G.
*ENGLISH, GLENN H., JR. Rank and organization: Staff Sergeant, U.S. Army,
Company E, 3d Battalion, ~03 Infantry, 173d Airborne Brigade. Place and
date: Phu My District, Republic of Vietnam, 7 September 1970. Entered
service at: Philadelphia, Pa. Born: 23 April 1940, Altoona, Pa. Paying no
heed to warnings that the ammunition and fuel in a burning personnel carrier
might explode at any moment, S/Sgt. English raced to the vehicle and climbed
inside to rescue his wounded comrades. As he was lifting 1 of the men to
safety, the vehicle exploded, mortally wounding him.

On 9/15/2011 7:26 PM, Steve B wrote:
I currently have a 100 gal propane tank owned by the propane company.
It is refilled by automatic delivery and the price is set by the company.
At one time I had a tank owned by another propane supplier.
I switched from that company to the company I currently use. This
required that the old company had to come and remove their tank. I was
reimbursed for the propane left in the old tank. The new company
installed their tank and I was locked into whatever price they charged.
I want to own my own tank so I can shop around for the best price when
having my tank refilled, much like I do with my fuel oil tank.
Having googled for 100 gal propane tanks, it seems that no one sells
these large tanks to the general public. Even eBay does not have any new
or used tanks for sale (Your search returned 0 items).
Anyone have any ideas?

You must ask in your own location, Grasshoppah. Some states may have
statutes that eliminate private ownership. Liability is a big issue, even
if you have everything right, and have the tank inspected, yada yada. I can
buy one in my state, Utah, but I would have to live a very long time for it
to be a deal. Plus, as the nice propane lady told me, if I have any problem
with the tank, they just bring me another one, no charge, no repair. I
don't believe that would be the case with a privately owned tank.

If your issue is finding the cheapest propane, and the costs vary enough to
make it mathematically justifiable, they by all means, shop around. First,
though, ask the basic questions where YOU live, as some of the answers here
will be worth the paper they are written on, as they won't be valid where
YOU live.

Some suppliers, particularly of propane have been known to have wildly
fluctuating prices, taking advantage of some people they have captive by a
lease, etc.

Good luck.

Steve

yep. i own my own 500g tank and shop around when i need my yearly fill.
there are 5 large propane suppliers who deliver to my area, and their
prices can vary by $1/gallon between high and low. they all require an
inspection before the first delivery.