I was amazed to learn this week that a lot of passenger cars not only
have the holes drilled in the frame to attach a hitch, but they even
have nuts welded on the top of the holes so that one can just bolt the
hitch on.**

However the nut threads are often clogged with dirt and rust.

Rather than hunt for thread chaser for this particular metric size,
and rather than buying a whole set of metric taps, I thought I could
make my own thread chaser by buying a bolt the right size and grinding
a couple grooves up from the end of the bolt maybe 3/4" long.

Do you think this will work? It sounds quicker and easier than
shopping for something I will use for only 4 or 6 holes total.

The car is 11 years old and was in Florida or South Carolina almost
all its life. Probably not as rusty as some cars.




**I think that's amazing. This accounts for why they keep saying the
hitch can be attached in 30 minutes, more or less, and why those
making comments said they were able to do it in 30 minutes. .

I also think it's amazing that they go to so much trouble for
something most people never use, and don't even know about. For
example, I've read the owner's manual for the 2000 Solara convertible
I just bought and it discusses towning, but afaict says nothing about
mounting the hitch or how easy it will be. (It actually discourages
towing.)

Are they being paid by the hitch companies to drill these holes and
weld these nuts? After all, I think less than 5 percent of
passenger cars will ever have a hitch attached, expecially if you
don't count SUV's. And in some cases, he nuts are welded into a
square tube. Even if a robot does the welding, it must take a few
minutes to weld on both the side near the end of the tube and the
other side too. Or do they just weld the left and right sides?

On 8/20/2011 11:33 AM, micky wrote:
....

Rather than hunt for thread chaser for this particular metric size,
and rather than buying a whole set of metric taps, I thought I could
make my own thread chaser by buying a bolt the right size and grinding
a couple grooves up from the end of the bolt maybe 3/4" long.

Do you think this will work? It sounds quicker and easier than
shopping for something I will use for only 4 or 6 holes total.
....

Can't imagine how going to the closest auto parts or hardware and buying
a tap could be classified as "hard", but...

Sure the proposal will work; a stud will work w/o the modifications, too.

If there is mud, etc., in the location just start w/ the pressure nozzle
on a garden hose and anything suitable to poke the bulk of the dirt out.
A small diameter brush can then take most of the rest of the actual
bulk material out and then a shot of lubricant and away ya' goes...

--

Your average tap has a hardness of about 62 Rockwell, that bolt is probably
in the mid 20s, the frame probably right around 20. I think you'll see
significant deformation of the threads on the bolt if you try to use it as a
tap. Think about what a bolt looks like when it gets cross-threaded. It
doesn't do too good of a job of cutting when that happens either.

You can buy taps one at a time. They're usually less than $5 for the sizes
you're looking at. Use with oil or tap magic.


"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 8/20/2011 11:33 AM, micky wrote:
...

Rather than hunt for thread chaser for this particular metric size,
and rather than buying a whole set of metric taps, I thought I could
make my own thread chaser by buying a bolt the right size and grinding
a couple grooves up from the end of the bolt maybe 3/4" long.

Do you think this will work? It sounds quicker and easier than
shopping for something I will use for only 4 or 6 holes total.
...

Can't imagine how going to the closest auto parts or hardware and buying a
tap could be classified as "hard", but...

Sure the proposal will work; a stud will work w/o the modifications, too.

If there is mud, etc., in the location just start w/ the pressure nozzle
on a garden hose and anything suitable to poke the bulk of the dirt out. A
small diameter brush can then take most of the rest of the actual bulk
material out and then a shot of lubricant and away ya' goes...

--

micky wrote:

I was amazed to learn this week that a lot of passenger cars not only
have the holes drilled in the frame to attach a hitch, but they even
have nuts welded on the top of the holes so that one can just bolt the
hitch on.**

Yep BTDT with my Impala 5-6 years ago. I was surprised, too-- and
luckily everything was still workable even after 5 years of NY
winters.


However the nut threads are often clogged with dirt and rust.

Rather than hunt for thread chaser for this particular metric size,
and rather than buying a whole set of metric taps, I thought I could
make my own thread chaser by buying a bolt the right size and grinding
a couple grooves up from the end of the bolt maybe 3/4" long.

Do you think this will work? It sounds quicker and easier than
shopping for something I will use for only 4 or 6 holes total.

Sounds harder- and may not be as fast as using the right tool. but
it will be cheaper & it *might* work.

-snip-

I also think it's amazing that they go to so much trouble for
something most people never use, and don't even know about. For
example, I've read the owner's manual for the 2000 Solara convertible
I just bought and it discusses towning, but afaict says nothing about
mounting the hitch or how easy it will be. (It actually discourages
towing.)

I wouldn't get too carried away with what you're towing with it then.
My Impala is only rated for 1000 pounds total. [maybe 100 pounds
tongue weight?]

At about 1200 pounds the car gets a little sloppy and I wouldn't want
to do an interstate with it. [My math was off one day & put 4000
pounds of blocks in the trailer. I knew it was overloaded as soon as
I started, but after seeing that the transmission and brakes were up
to the job, I decided to go for the 10 miles home. It was a slow
trip that reminded me of riding in a boat.]

Jim

On Aug 20, 5:33*pm, micky wrote:
I was amazed to learn this week that a lot of passenger cars not only
have the holes drilled in the frame to attach a hitch, but they even
have nuts welded on the top of the holes so that one can just bolt the
hitch on.**

However the nut threads are often clogged with dirt and rust.

Rather than hunt for thread chaser for this particular metric size,
and rather than buying a whole set of metric taps, I thought I could
make my own thread chaser by buying a bolt the right size and grinding
a couple grooves up from the end of the bolt maybe 3/4" long.

Do you think this will work? * * It sounds quicker and easier than
shopping for something I will use for only 4 or 6 holes total.

The car is 11 years old and was in Florida or South Carolina almost
all its life. *Probably not as rusty as some cars.

**I think that's amazing. * This accounts for why they keep saying the
hitch can be attached in 30 minutes, more or less, and why those
making comments said they were able to do it in 30 minutes. .

I also think it's amazing that they go to so much trouble for
something most people never use, and don't even know about. For
example, I've read the owner's manual for the 2000 Solara convertible
I just bought and it discusses towning, but afaict says nothing about
mounting the hitch or how easy it will be. *(It actually discourages
towing.)

Are they being paid by the hitch companies to drill these holes and
weld these nuts? * *After all, I think less than 5 percent of
passenger cars will ever have a hitch attached, expecially if you
don't count SUV's. * * And in some cases, he nuts are welded into a
square tube. *Even if a robot does the welding, it must take a few
minutes to weld on both the side near the end of the tube and the
other side too. *Or do they just weld the left and right sides?

Fitting the hitch is the easy bit.
The hard bit is the wiring. Depends on how much of that is pre-
installed.
If none, a real PITA

CraigT wrote:
Your average tap has a hardness of about 62 Rockwell, that bolt is
probably in the mid 20s, the frame probably right around 20. I think
you'll see significant deformation of the threads on the bolt if you
try to use it as a tap. Think about what a bolt looks like when it
gets cross-threaded. It doesn't do too good of a job of cutting when
that happens either.
You can buy taps one at a time. They're usually less than $5 for the
sizes you're looking at. Use with oil or tap magic.

What this guy said. Pressure blast the nuts, flood them with a water
displacement compound, then use the appropriate chaser to clean them out if
you need to.

When you attach the hitch, use loctite on the threads, and torque the
fasteners to the proper torque, taking into consideration the reducing
factor when using a thread compound.

Remember, this is a hitch, and if something comes loose at highway speeds it
won't be pretty.

Jon

micky wrote:
Are they being paid by the hitch companies to drill these holes and
weld these nuts? After all, I think less than 5 percent of
passenger cars will ever have a hitch attached, expecially if you
don't count SUV's. And in some cases, he nuts are welded into a
square tube. Even if a robot does the welding, it must take a few
minutes to weld on both the side near the end of the tube and the
other side too. Or do they just weld the left and right sides?

They put the nuts in because some people order hitches with the car? Or because
they want to determine how they will be mounted to avoid liability when it's
done wrong?

The nuts may well be welded on before the metal is bent into the tube. In any
case, it's probably done by a machine, perhaps using a spot welding technique.

In article ,
micky wrote:

I was amazed to learn this week that a lot of passenger cars not only
have the holes drilled in the frame to attach a hitch, but they even
have nuts welded on the top of the holes so that one can just bolt the
hitch on.

Where did you learn this? Is there a list?

(mini wire brush on a dremel might clean out your threads)

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:03:35 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
micky wrote:

I was amazed to learn this week that a lot of passenger cars not only
have the holes drilled in the frame to attach a hitch, but they even
have nuts welded on the top of the holes so that one can just bolt the
hitch on.

Where did you learn this? Is there a list?

Here's one-
http://www.hiddenhitch.com/content/fitguides.aspx


(mini wire brush on a dremel might clean out your threads)

If his are where mine were, they are on the top [hidden] end of a
frame member. Might be an access plug in the trunk.

Jim

"micky" wrote
However the nut threads are often clogged with dirt and rust.

Rather than hunt for thread chaser for this particular metric size,
and rather than buying a whole set of metric taps, I thought I could
make my own thread chaser by buying a bolt the right size and grinding
a couple grooves up from the end of the bolt maybe 3/4" long.

Do you think this will work?

No. Grinding the thread will probably mess them up on the edges and you risk
damaging the nuts. You can readily buy individual taps and do it right.
In the time it takes you to grind the grooved, re-align the threads and test
it on a nut, you can be back from the auto store or supply house.

On 8/20/2011 12:33 PM, micky wrote:
I was amazed to learn this week that a lot of passenger cars not only
have the holes drilled in the frame to attach a hitch, but they even
have nuts welded on the top of the holes so that one can just bolt the
hitch on.**

However the nut threads are often clogged with dirt and rust.

Rather than hunt for thread chaser for this particular metric size,
and rather than buying a whole set of metric taps, I thought I could
make my own thread chaser by buying a bolt the right size and grinding
a couple grooves up from the end of the bolt maybe 3/4" long.

Do you think this will work? It sounds quicker and easier than
shopping for something I will use for only 4 or 6 holes total.

The car is 11 years old and was in Florida or South Carolina almost
all its life. Probably not as rusty as some cars.




**I think that's amazing. This accounts for why they keep saying the
hitch can be attached in 30 minutes, more or less, and why those
making comments said they were able to do it in 30 minutes. .

I also think it's amazing that they go to so much trouble for
something most people never use, and don't even know about. For
example, I've read the owner's manual for the 2000 Solara convertible
I just bought and it discusses towning, but afaict says nothing about
mounting the hitch or how easy it will be. (It actually discourages
towing.)

Are they being paid by the hitch companies to drill these holes and
weld these nuts? After all, I think less than 5 percent of
passenger cars will ever have a hitch attached, expecially if you
don't count SUV's. And in some cases, he nuts are welded into a
square tube. Even if a robot does the welding, it must take a few
minutes to weld on both the side near the end of the tube and the
other side too. Or do they just weld the left and right sides?

I think they consider it cheap insurance against the hack job welded-on
hitch installs that used to be common, where some idiot got their tow
vehicle upside down and killed themselves, and the widow and her lawyer
went after the deep pockets. A couple threaded hardpoints on every frame
costs next to nothing to add during the manufacturing process- no
different than all the other premade holes for brackets to attach to.
Especially true with unit-body cars- a shade-tree hitch install on those
can put bolt holes in places where it could cause real problems.

--
aem sends...

On 8/20/2011 12:40 PM, CraigT wrote:
Your average tap has a hardness of about 62 Rockwell, that bolt is probably
in the mid 20s, the frame probably right around 20. I think you'll see
significant deformation of the threads on the bolt if you try to use it as a
tap. Think about what a bolt looks like when it gets cross-threaded. It
doesn't do too good of a job of cutting when that happens either.
....

Nonsense--the threads are already tapped, all he'll be doing is cleaning
out a little (probably very little) dirt...

It would be at least a Grade 5 recommended bolt; it'll be plenty hard
enough to not deform enough't you'd measure it...

A tap would be fine, sure, but for the purpose there's nothing really to
be gained much; other than he'll have to go get the bolts anyway so
may'st as well while there...

But, there's surely nothing bad to happen to simply clean out a set of
threads w/ the fastener unless they're so badly corroded as to be to the
point one wouldn't want to use the resulting set of threads for anything
important any way, tap or no tap.

--

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:00:00 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

micky wrote:
Are they being paid by the hitch companies to drill these holes and
weld these nuts? After all, I think less than 5 percent of
passenger cars will ever have a hitch attached, expecially if you
don't count SUV's. And in some cases, he nuts are welded into a
square tube. Even if a robot does the welding, it must take a few
minutes to weld on both the side near the end of the tube and the
other side too. Or do they just weld the left and right sides?

They put the nuts in because some people order hitches with the car? Or because
they want to determine how they will be mounted to avoid liability when it's
done wrong?

You might be right. By coincidence, I stopped at a yard sale today
and it was the first one I've ever been to that had a trailer hitch
for sale. Was meant for a truch, however. The guy there said it was
to make it easier for dealers to install hitches.

The nuts may well be welded on before the metal is bent into the tube. In any
case, it's probably done by a machine, perhaps using a spot welding technique.

Maybe so.

I think a lot more people would buy hitches, maybe 6% instead of 3% if
they knew how easy they are to install. (of course some require
drilling, or moving the muffler back and forth a little. And mine
requires a little of this, but it will still be a lot easier than I
expected.

The trailer hitch for my '84 Lebaron I used on my 88 and 95 also, and
it used U-bolts to clam to the "struts" that held the rear bumper, and
two holes had to be drilled in the metal part of the bumper, and the
plastic trimmed away a little in the middle, but those cars had less
of a frame. And the hitch was class I.

This one will be class II.

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:33:44 -0400, micky
wrote:

I was amazed to learn this week that a lot of passenger cars not only
have the holes drilled in the frame to attach a hitch, but they even
have nuts welded on the top of the holes so that one can just bolt the
hitch on.**

However the nut threads are often clogged with dirt and rust.

Rather than hunt for thread chaser for this particular metric size,
and rather than buying a whole set of metric taps, I thought I could
make my own thread chaser by buying a bolt the right size and grinding
a couple grooves up from the end of the bolt maybe 3/4" long.

Do you think this will work? It sounds quicker and easier than
shopping for something I will use for only 4 or 6 holes total.

The car is 11 years old and was in Florida or South Carolina almost
all its life. Probably not as rusty as some cars.




**I think that's amazing. This accounts for why they keep saying the
hitch can be attached in 30 minutes, more or less, and why those
making comments said they were able to do it in 30 minutes. .

I also think it's amazing that they go to so much trouble for
something most people never use, and don't even know about. For
example, I've read the owner's manual for the 2000 Solara convertible
I just bought and it discusses towning, but afaict says nothing about
mounting the hitch or how easy it will be. (It actually discourages
towing.)

Are they being paid by the hitch companies to drill these holes and
weld these nuts? After all, I think less than 5 percent of
passenger cars will ever have a hitch attached, expecially if you
don't count SUV's. And in some cases, he nuts are welded into a
square tube. Even if a robot does the welding, it must take a few
minutes to weld on both the side near the end of the tube and the
other side too. Or do they just weld the left and right sides?
GENERALLY the hitch companies use the bolt holes the mfg has already
installed - not the other way around. In many cases the bolt holes
are there for transportation tie-down hooks etc.

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 15:35:50 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:03:35 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
micky wrote:

I was amazed to learn this week that a lot of passenger cars not only
have the holes drilled in the frame to attach a hitch, but they even
have nuts welded on the top of the holes so that one can just bolt the
hitch on.

Where did you learn this? Is there a list?

Here's one-
http://www.hiddenhitch.com/content/fitguides.aspx


(mini wire brush on a dremel might clean out your threads)

If his are where mine were, they are on the top [hidden] end of a
frame member. Might be an access plug in the trunk.

Jim


On my PT cruiser, and on may Toyotas, the bolts are originally used to
fasten the "tow hooks" to the frame. They are not REALLY tow hooks -
they are transport tie-downs, and according to the PDI instructions
they are to be REMOVED before delivery to the customer in most cases -
leaving the threaded holes available for the hitch manufacturer to
make use of.

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 15:35:50 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:03:35 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
micky wrote:

I was amazed to learn this week that a lot of passenger cars not only
have the holes drilled in the frame to attach a hitch, but they even
have nuts welded on the top of the holes so that one can just bolt the
hitch on.

Where did you learn this? Is there a list?

I went to JCWhitney and they sold Curt and Hidden Hitch, and in the
reviews people kept talking about installing the hitch in 30 minutes,
and about not having to drill and cleaning out the threads, and
gradually I figured it out. I went to a couple hitch sites and one
had an FAQ that referred to weldnuts and two had downloadable
installation instructions that were explicit. Although in my case,
I'm supposed to drill two more holes and snake a square U-bolt into
them, in addition to the other two bolts on that side.)

Here's one-
http://www.hiddenhitch.com/content/fitguides.aspx


(mini wire brush on a dremel might clean out your threads)

Good idea. I don't think this will be such a problem in this case,
but I liked the idea of making my own thread chaser.

If his are where mine were, they are on the top [hidden] end of a
frame member. Might be an access plug in the trunk.

In this Toyotal Solara, they're visible from underneath. I didnt'
realize how close to the bumper they would be. There is a bigger
hole in between the two holes with nuts, and on the right side, in
addition to the two threaded holes, I'm supposed to take out one bolt
that hold the muffler heat shield, and slide the hitch bracket under
the shield. Might have to remove the muffler hanger to do all this.
But doesn't look hard.

Jim

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:40:26 -0400, "CraigT"
wrote:

Your average tap has a hardness of about 62 Rockwell, that bolt is probably
in the mid 20s, the frame probably right around 20.

I was thinking that if the bolt is 20 as you say, and I'm sure you're
right, it might be harder than the rust and dirt. I don't want to
rethread the frame itself, just clean out the rust and dirt.

I think you'll see
significant deformation of the threads on the bolt if you try to use it as a
tap. Think about what a bolt looks like when it gets cross-threaded. It
doesn't do too good of a job of cutting when that happens either.

You can buy taps one at a time. They're usually less than $5 for the sizes
you're looking at.

That's pretty cheap, I'll admit.

I have a tendency to think everything I've never bought before is
very expensive. When I first bought some lucite, I was amazed that
the piece I wanted was only a dollar!

Use with oil or tap magic.

Also a good idea. Maybe I panicked because of one guy who complained
there was no tap included with the hitch. .




"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 8/20/2011 11:33 AM, micky wrote:
...

Rather than hunt for thread chaser for this particular metric size,
and rather than buying a whole set of metric taps, I thought I could
make my own thread chaser by buying a bolt the right size and grinding
a couple grooves up from the end of the bolt maybe 3/4" long.

Do you think this will work? It sounds quicker and easier than
shopping for something I will use for only 4 or 6 holes total.
...

Can't imagine how going to the closest auto parts or hardware and buying a
tap could be classified as "hard", but...

Sure the proposal will work; a stud will work w/o the modifications, too.

If there is mud, etc., in the location just start w/ the pressure nozzle
on a garden hose and anything suitable to poke the bulk of the dirt out. A
small diameter brush can then take most of the rest of the actual bulk
material out and then a shot of lubricant and away ya' goes...

--

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:41:25 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:


-snip-

I also think it's amazing that they go to so much trouble for
something most people never use, and don't even know about. For
example, I've read the owner's manual for the 2000 Solara convertible
I just bought and it discusses towning, but afaict says nothing about
mounting the hitch or how easy it will be. (It actually discourages
towing.)

I wouldn't get too carried away with what you're towing with it then.

The manual is schizophrenic.

"Your vehicle is disgined primarily as a pasenger carrying vehicle
Towing a trailer will have an adverse effect on handling, performance,
baraking, durability and driving economy. Your safety and
satisfaction depend on the proper use of correct equipment with
cautious driving habits. For our safety and and the safety of others
you must not overload your hehicle or trailer. Toyota warrantees do
not applay to damage for malfuncition caused by towing a trailer for
commercial purposes. Ask your local toyoata dealer for further details
efore towing. " Then it has 4 more pages on how to tow, including
1.,5 pages of warnings (the whole manaul is full of warnings. If I
were 16 y.o. I'd be scared to drive it.) . They say it can tle 2000
pounds, which is likely more than I can load on t he trailer.

"Never tap into your vehicles brake hydraulic system... " Who's going
to do that!!!

My Impala is only rated for 1000 pounds total. [maybe 100 pounds
tongue weight?]

At about 1200 pounds the car gets a little sloppy and I wouldn't want
to do an interstate with it. [My math was off one day & put 4000
pounds of blocks in the trailer.

LOL. I was t told that one never needed math after he got out of
school So I wouldn't begin to get it right.

I knew it was overloaded as soon as
I started, but after seeing that the transmission and brakes were up
to the job, I decided to go for the 10 miles home. It was a slow
trip that reminded me of riding in a boat.]

LOL. A lot can be accomplished by driving slow.

When I had a full size convertible, on two occasions,I bought and
delivered a spinet piano. Put a double bed mattress on top of the
folded to and the trunk lid, and the piano on top of that. Drove 10
mph, 20 maybe if the street ahead looked very smooth, 5 mph if it
looked rought. You're not supposed to move an upright piano on its
back (or a grand piano except on its side) to avoid breaking the sound
board, but when the bumps can barely be recognized even by me, there's
not much risk.

Jim

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:18:58 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:41:25 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:


-snip-

I also think it's amazing that they go to so much trouble for
something most people never use, and don't even know about. For
example, I've read the owner's manual for the 2000 Solara convertible
I just bought and it discusses towning, but afaict says nothing about
mounting the hitch or how easy it will be. (It actually discourages
towing.)

I wouldn't get too carried away with what you're towing with it then.

The manual is schizophrenic.

"Your vehicle is disgined primarily as a pasenger carrying vehicle
Towing a trailer will have an adverse effect on handling, performance,
baraking, durability and driving economy. Your safety and
satisfaction depend on the proper use of correct equipment with
cautious driving habits. For our safety and and the safety of others
you must not overload your hehicle or trailer. Toyota warrantees do
not applay to damage for malfuncition caused by towing a trailer for
commercial purposes. Ask your local toyoata dealer for further details
efore towing. " Then it has 4 more pages on how to tow, including
1.,5 pages of warnings (the whole manaul is full of warnings. If I
were 16 y.o. I'd be scared to drive it.) . They say it can tle 2000
pounds, which is likely more than I can load on t he trailer.

"Never tap into your vehicles brake hydraulic system... " Who's going
to do that!!!


Used to be the only way to get trailer brakes. All the brake
controllers were hydraulic over electric.
My Impala is only rated for 1000 pounds total. [maybe 100 pounds
tongue weight?]

At about 1200 pounds the car gets a little sloppy and I wouldn't want
to do an interstate with it. [My math was off one day & put 4000
pounds of blocks in the trailer.

LOL. I was t told that one never needed math after he got out of
school So I wouldn't begin to get it right.

I knew it was overloaded as soon as
I started, but after seeing that the transmission and brakes were up
to the job, I decided to go for the 10 miles home. It was a slow
trip that reminded me of riding in a boat.]

LOL. A lot can be accomplished by driving slow.

When I had a full size convertible, on two occasions,I bought and
delivered a spinet piano. Put a double bed mattress on top of the
folded to and the trunk lid, and the piano on top of that. Drove 10
mph, 20 maybe if the street ahead looked very smooth, 5 mph if it
looked rought. You're not supposed to move an upright piano on its
back (or a grand piano except on its side) to avoid breaking the sound
board, but when the bumps can barely be recognized even by me, there's
not much risk.

Jim

micky wrote:
I went to JCWhitney and they sold Curt and Hidden Hitch, and in the
reviews people kept talking about installing the hitch in 30 minutes,
and about not having to drill and cleaning out the threads, and
gradually I figured it out. I went to a couple hitch sites and one
had an FAQ that referred to weldnuts and two had downloadable
installation instructions that were explicit. Although in my case,
I'm supposed to drill two more holes and snake a square U-bolt into
them, in addition to the other two bolts on that side.)

Here's one-
http://www.hiddenhitch.com/content/fitguides.aspx

I went to that site looking for install instructions for my 94 Caravan to see
the details. I can't find any access to installation info other than "drill
required".

Whitney seems to have no such info on-line either.

Have you found such info, and would you have a site suggestion?

On 8/20/2011 8:11 PM, Bob F wrote:
micky wrote:
I went to JCWhitney and they sold Curt and Hidden Hitch, and in the
reviews people kept talking about installing the hitch in 30 minutes,
and about not having to drill and cleaning out the threads, and
gradually I figured it out. I went to a couple hitch sites and one
had an FAQ that referred to weldnuts and two had downloadable
installation instructions that were explicit. Although in my case,
I'm supposed to drill two more holes and snake a square U-bolt into
them, in addition to the other two bolts on that side.)

Here's one-
http://www.hiddenhitch.com/content/fitguides.aspx

I went to that site looking for install instructions for my 94 Caravan to see
the details. I can't find any access to installation info other than "drill
required".

Whitney seems to have no such info on-line either.

Have you found such info, and would you have a site suggestion?



Rueful chuckle- on that era caravan, the MOST I would consider towing is
one of those itty-bitty utility trailers, very lightly loaded. The
tranny just ain't up to any hard chores. Don't believe me, ask around
over on the Dodge groups.

Second time mine blew up (no towing, but a sloping driveway in snow
country), I said the hell with it, and sold it basically for the value
of the pretty nice wheels and tires that were on it. (The usual
early-90's Caravan rust issues had already started, and it had 127k on
the clock already.) And yes, the wheels and tires were a stock size, so
that wasn't the cause of it. If your heart is set on towing, make sure
your tranny has the upgrade kit- I don't remember when that running
change occurred. Ask any dealer or transmission shop- they will know
what I am talking about. That supposedly buys you a little more margin.

--
aem sends...

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:57:34 -0400, wrote:


"Never tap into your vehicles brake hydraulic system... " Who's going
to do that!!!


Used to be the only way to get trailer brakes. All the brake
controllers were hydraulic over electric.

Wow. I guess that fully explains their warning, but it sounds
awfully hard to do, both at the car end and the trailer end.

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 17:11:56 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

micky wrote:
I went to JCWhitney and they sold Curt and Hidden Hitch, and in the
reviews people kept talking about installing the hitch in 30 minutes,
and about not having to drill and cleaning out the threads, and
gradually I figured it out. I went to a couple hitch sites and one
had an FAQ that referred to weldnuts and two had downloadable
installation instructions that were explicit. Although in my case,
I'm supposed to drill two more holes and snake a square U-bolt into
them, in addition to the other two bolts on that side.)

Here's one-
http://www.hiddenhitch.com/content/fitguides.aspx

I went to that site looking for install instructions for my 94 Caravan to see
the details. I can't find any access to installation info other than "drill
required".

Whitney seems to have no such info on-line either.

Whitney's pages hitches are pretty good, but a reseller is not usually
going to have all the special info that the manufacturer has

Have you found such info, and would you have a site suggestion?

I have a few pdf files but I'm having a hard time figuring out where
they came from. Despite what I said a couple lines up, it might be a
reseller, but one that deals in hitches, etc.

I have 100 or more tabs open in 7 Firefox windows and FF keeps
crashing. When I get it under control, I can see where I got these
directions, and I'll post it here.

micky wrote:
On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:57:34 -0400, wrote:


"Never tap into your vehicles brake hydraulic system... " Who's going
to do that!!!


Used to be the only way to get trailer brakes. All the brake
controllers were hydraulic over electric.

Wow. I guess that fully explains their warning, but it sounds
awfully hard to do, both at the car end and the trailer end.
Huh?
When I was pulling 7000 lbs fiver with 3/4 ton Ford F-250HD Towing
special, trailer brake was tied into truck brake hydraulic line. After
making proper adjustment it worked without any problem. Also I could
override controller manually. Maybe it has something to do ABS brakes.
As long as you know what you are doing. All passenger cars are uni-body
structure and you can't haul anything real heavy. Unless it's equipped
with heavier suspension, cooling, etc. On some cars you can have tow
package option. My Acura MDX is rated for 3500 lbs with proper equipment
but I wouldn't dare to pull full load for long haul.

aemeijers wrote:
On 8/20/2011 8:11 PM, Bob F wrote:
micky wrote:
I went to JCWhitney and they sold Curt and Hidden Hitch, and in the
reviews people kept talking about installing the hitch in 30
minutes, and about not having to drill and cleaning out the
threads, and gradually I figured it out. I went to a couple hitch
sites and one had an FAQ that referred to weldnuts and two had
downloadable installation instructions that were explicit. Although in my
case, I'm supposed to drill two more holes and snake
a square U-bolt into them, in addition to the other two bolts on
that side.)

Here's one-
http://www.hiddenhitch.com/content/fitguides.aspx

I went to that site looking for install instructions for my 94
Caravan to see the details. I can't find any access to installation
info other than "drill required".

Whitney seems to have no such info on-line either.

Have you found such info, and would you have a site suggestion?



Rueful chuckle- on that era caravan, the MOST I would consider towing
is one of those itty-bitty utility trailers, very lightly loaded. The
tranny just ain't up to any hard chores. Don't believe me, ask around
over on the Dodge groups.


All I need is to be able to haul a trailer of firewood or such a few times a
year, probably 10 miles max. I get tired of loading and cleaning the van. A
neighbor has a trailer I can borrow.

I did go through tranny problems when I first got this one. Replaceing the
transmission control unit, and the battery (apparently, these things are very
sensitive to low voltage) seems to have it working pretty well now.

There is also curtmfg.com
http://www.curtmfg.com/index.cfm?event=hitch.search

and ...


This is the url of one et of instructions, drawings really, but I
don't know how to get from this to another car:
http://sitepro12.sitepro.com/masterl..._12339_INS.pdf
Wait. I think the CM stands for Curt Manufacturing, which is the tab
to the left. Though 2 of my pdf file names started with N, not CM.

Here's a page at hidden hitch which offers instructions. I'm afraid
to open any tab I don't need, for fear I'll crash FF again:
http://hiddenhitch.com/content/produ...0&part= 90174

This one comes from a site I think I got several drawings from:
http://www.hitchpro.com/application/...ons/N36336.pdf
Yes, these are the ones that start with N. First I found the hitch,
and then I clicked on Instructions or Installation, etc.



On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 17:11:56 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

micky wrote:
I went to JCWhitney and they sold Curt and Hidden Hitch, and in the
reviews people kept talking about installing the hitch in 30 minutes,
and about not having to drill and cleaning out the threads, and
gradually I figured it out. I went to a couple hitch sites and one
had an FAQ that referred to weldnuts and two had downloadable
installation instructions that were explicit. Although in my case,
I'm supposed to drill two more holes and snake a square U-bolt into
them, in addition to the other two bolts on that side.)

Here's one-
http://www.hiddenhitch.com/content/fitguides.aspx

I went to that site looking for install instructions for my 94 Caravan to see
the details. I can't find any access to installation info other than "drill
required".

Whitney seems to have no such info on-line either.

Whitney's pages hitches are pretty good, but a reseller is not usually
going to have all the special info that the manufacturer has

Have you found such info, and would you have a site suggestion?

I have a few pdf files but I'm having a hard time figuring out where
they came from. Despite what I said a couple lines up, it might be a
reseller, but one that deals in hitches, etc.

I have 100 or more tabs open in 7 Firefox windows and FF keeps
crashing. When I get it under control, I can see where I got these
directions, and I'll post it here.

micky wrote:
I was amazed to learn this week that a lot of passenger cars not only
have the holes drilled in the frame to attach a hitch, but they even
have nuts welded on the top of the holes so that one can just bolt the
hitch on.**

However the nut threads are often clogged with dirt and rust.

Rather than hunt for thread chaser for this particular metric size,
and rather than buying a whole set of metric taps, I thought I could
make my own thread chaser by buying a bolt the right size and grinding
a couple grooves up from the end of the bolt maybe 3/4" long.

Do you think this will work? It sounds quicker and easier than
shopping for something I will use for only 4 or 6 holes total.

The car is 11 years old and was in Florida or South Carolina almost
all its life. Probably not as rusty as some cars.




**I think that's amazing. This accounts for why they keep saying the
hitch can be attached in 30 minutes, more or less, and why those
making comments said they were able to do it in 30 minutes. .

I also think it's amazing that they go to so much trouble for
something most people never use, and don't even know about. For
example, I've read the owner's manual for the 2000 Solara convertible
I just bought and it discusses towning, but afaict says nothing about
mounting the hitch or how easy it will be. (It actually discourages
towing.)

Are they being paid by the hitch companies to drill these holes and
weld these nuts? After all, I think less than 5 percent of
passenger cars will ever have a hitch attached, expecially if you
don't count SUV's. And in some cases, he nuts are welded into a
square tube. Even if a robot does the welding, it must take a few
minutes to weld on both the side near the end of the tube and the
other side too. Or do they just weld the left and right sides?
Hi,
Are you in a hurry? Or I'd hammmer a pick thru the hole if possible, if
not I'd sparay penetrating oil and wait for a day of so and try again.
And use pinty steel brush to clean out the build up insode. Repeat.
Maybe that's all you need.

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 20:47:28 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:57:34 -0400, wrote:


"Never tap into your vehicles brake hydraulic system... " Who's going
to do that!!!


Used to be the only way to get trailer brakes. All the brake
controllers were hydraulic over electric.

Wow. I guess that fully explains their warning, but it sounds
awfully hard to do, both at the car end and the trailer end.
Dead simple, actually. Remove the line from the master cyl (single in
those days), install a "T" and run the line to the controller. The
controller sent a varying current to the brakes, propoertional to
brake pressure. Trailer end was the same as today. I installed dozens
- possibly hundreds of them over the years.

The holes are there for tiedowns that they used when they transported the
car from the factory.

Part of Dealer Prep is to usually remove these brackets. The first car I did
I had to remove the tiedowns. The second they weren't there.

For my Saturn L200 there are no brackets and I would have had to drill the
bumper.


"micky" wrote in message
...
I was amazed to learn this week that a lot of passenger cars not only
have the holes drilled in the frame to attach a hitch, but they even
have nuts welded on the top of the holes so that one can just bolt the
hitch on.**

However the nut threads are often clogged with dirt and rust.

Rather than hunt for thread chaser for this particular metric size,
and rather than buying a whole set of metric taps, I thought I could
make my own thread chaser by buying a bolt the right size and grinding
a couple grooves up from the end of the bolt maybe 3/4" long.

Do you think this will work? It sounds quicker and easier than
shopping for something I will use for only 4 or 6 holes total.

The car is 11 years old and was in Florida or South Carolina almost
all its life. Probably not as rusty as some cars.




**I think that's amazing. This accounts for why they keep saying the
hitch can be attached in 30 minutes, more or less, and why those
making comments said they were able to do it in 30 minutes. .

I also think it's amazing that they go to so much trouble for
something most people never use, and don't even know about. For
example, I've read the owner's manual for the 2000 Solara convertible
I just bought and it discusses towning, but afaict says nothing about
mounting the hitch or how easy it will be. (It actually discourages
towing.)

Are they being paid by the hitch companies to drill these holes and
weld these nuts? After all, I think less than 5 percent of
passenger cars will ever have a hitch attached, expecially if you
don't count SUV's. And in some cases, he nuts are welded into a
square tube. Even if a robot does the welding, it must take a few
minutes to weld on both the side near the end of the tube and the
other side too. Or do they just weld the left and right sides?

wrote:
On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 20:47:28 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:57:34 -0400, wrote:


"Never tap into your vehicles brake hydraulic system... " Who's
going to do that!!!


Used to be the only way to get trailer brakes. All the brake
controllers were hydraulic over electric.

Wow. I guess that fully explains their warning, but it sounds
awfully hard to do, both at the car end and the trailer end.
Dead simple, actually. Remove the line from the master cyl (single in
those days), install a "T" and run the line to the controller. The
controller sent a varying current to the brakes, propoertional to
brake pressure. Trailer end was the same as today. I installed dozens
- possibly hundreds of them over the years.

Do those work with modern brake systems, antilock and antiskid?

micky wrote:
I was amazed to learn this week that a lot of passenger cars not only
have the holes drilled in the frame to attach a hitch, but they even
have nuts welded on the top of the holes so that one can just bolt the
hitch on.**

However the nut threads are often clogged with dirt and rust.

Rather than hunt for thread chaser for this particular metric size,
and rather than buying a whole set of metric taps, I thought I could
make my own thread chaser by buying a bolt the right size and grinding
a couple grooves up from the end of the bolt maybe 3/4" long.

Do you think this will work? It sounds quicker and easier than
shopping for something I will use for only 4 or 6 holes total.

The car is 11 years old and was in Florida or South Carolina almost
all its life. Probably not as rusty as some cars.




**I think that's amazing. This accounts for why they keep saying the
hitch can be attached in 30 minutes, more or less, and why those
making comments said they were able to do it in 30 minutes. .

I also think it's amazing that they go to so much trouble for
something most people never use, and don't even know about. For
example, I've read the owner's manual for the 2000 Solara convertible
I just bought and it discusses towning, but afaict says nothing about
mounting the hitch or how easy it will be. (It actually discourages
towing.)

Are they being paid by the hitch companies to drill these holes and
weld these nuts? After all, I think less than 5 percent of
passenger cars will ever have a hitch attached, expecially if you
don't count SUV's. And in some cases, he nuts are welded into a
square tube. Even if a robot does the welding, it must take a few
minutes to weld on both the side near the end of the tube and the
other side too. Or do they just weld the left and right sides?
Hi,
Are you in a hurry? Or I'd hammer a pick thru the hole if possible, if
not I'd spray penetrating oil and wait for a day or so and try again.
And use pointy steel brush to clean out the build up inside. Repeat.
Maybe that's all you need.

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 21:32:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 20:47:28 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:57:34 -0400, wrote:


"Never tap into your vehicles brake hydraulic system... " Who's going
to do that!!!


Used to be the only way to get trailer brakes. All the brake
controllers were hydraulic over electric.

Wow. I guess that fully explains their warning, but it sounds
awfully hard to do, both at the car end and the trailer end.

Dead simple, actually. Remove the line from the master cyl (single in
those days), install a "T" and run the line to the controller. The
controller sent a varying current to the brakes, propoertional to
brake pressure.

I think the Toyoat manual was talking about something else. It said
it "would lower the braking effectiveness" which to me meant using the
hydraulic pressure of the car to apply the brakes of the trailer.
Which means running a hydraulic line from the car to the trailer!

Just using the pressure to run the controller a few inches away
wouldn't hurt braking effectiveness at all, would it? I assume the
line to the controller was bled. .

So now I've changed my mind and it still sounds alarmist by Toyota.

Trailer end was the same as today. I installed dozens
- possibly hundreds of them over the years.

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 21:02:43 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:



micky wrote:
I was amazed to learn this week that a lot of passenger cars not only
have the holes drilled in the frame to attach a hitch, but they even
have nuts welded on the top of the holes so that one can just bolt the
hitch on.**

However the nut threads are often clogged with dirt and rust.

Rather than hunt for thread chaser for this particular metric size,
and rather than buying a whole set of metric taps, I thought I could
make my own thread chaser by buying a bolt the right size and grinding
a couple grooves up from the end of the bolt maybe 3/4" long.

Do you think this will work? It sounds quicker and easier than
shopping for something I will use for only 4 or 6 holes total.

The car is 11 years old and was in Florida or South Carolina almost
all its life. Probably not as rusty as some cars.

....
Hi,
Are you in a hurry?

No.

Or I'd hammer a pick thru the hole if possible, if
not I'd spray penetrating oil and wait for a day or so and try again.
And use pointy steel brush to clean out the build up inside. Repeat.
Maybe that's all you need.

Sounds good. Thanks. I still haven't bought the hitch. One site
suggested their sketches were accurate enough to compare how far back
the hitch protrudes. I sort of doubt it, but I havent' had time to
loook. Maybe I'll decide it doesn't really matter.

Now the hitch on the Lebarons could barely be seen. It had a flat
bar that bent up from the center to both sides. And the receiver was
rectanuular, with the open space only about 3/4" high (and 2 inches
wide). They don't make or sell hitches like that anymore, now they're
1 1/4" square for class I and II. But I'm not going to choose a
car based on how invisible the hitch is.

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:51:09 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 20:47:28 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:57:34 -0400, wrote:


"Never tap into your vehicles brake hydraulic system... " Who's
going to do that!!!


Used to be the only way to get trailer brakes. All the brake
controllers were hydraulic over electric.

Wow. I guess that fully explains their warning, but it sounds
awfully hard to do, both at the car end and the trailer end.
Dead simple, actually. Remove the line from the master cyl (single in
those days), install a "T" and run the line to the controller. The
controller sent a varying current to the brakes, propoertional to
brake pressure. Trailer end was the same as today. I installed dozens
- possibly hundreds of them over the years.

Do those work with modern brake systems, antilock and antiskid?

They would likely work,after a fashion, but would give a low pedal and
would not be a good idea on anti-lock systems. As far as I know it is
not legal to use them on current vehicles - DEFINITELY NOT
RECOMMENDEED - which is the point of the warning.

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 23:16:37 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 21:32:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 20:47:28 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:57:34 -0400, wrote:


"Never tap into your vehicles brake hydraulic system... " Who's going
to do that!!!


Used to be the only way to get trailer brakes. All the brake
controllers were hydraulic over electric.

Wow. I guess that fully explains their warning, but it sounds
awfully hard to do, both at the car end and the trailer end.

Dead simple, actually. Remove the line from the master cyl (single in
those days), install a "T" and run the line to the controller. The
controller sent a varying current to the brakes, propoertional to
brake pressure.

I think the Toyoat manual was talking about something else. It said
it "would lower the braking effectiveness" which to me meant using the
hydraulic pressure of the car to apply the brakes of the trailer.
Which means running a hydraulic line from the car to the trailer!

Just using the pressure to run the controller a few inches away
wouldn't hurt braking effectiveness at all, would it? I assume the
line to the controller was bled. .
No - not alarmist - and it COULD reduce braking efficiency. The
hydraulic/electric systems are NOT RECOMMENDED on dual braking systems
- much-less anti-lock. ANd Toyota is not speaking of a different
system. I used to be a Toyota Service Manager, back when dual diaganol
braking systems, and dual circuit systems in general, first came into
use. At the same time, electronic brake controllers became REQUIRED.

So now I've changed my mind and it still sounds alarmist by Toyota.

Trailer end was the same as today. I installed dozens
- possibly hundreds of them over the years.

wrote
GENERALLY the hitch companies use the bolt holes the mfg has already
installed - not the other way around. In many cases the bolt holes
are there for transportation tie-down hooks etc.

That makes sense. Car makers are not going to spend 2¢ if it is not needed.
Considering the few hitches ever installed I don't see them thinking ahead
for the owners.

"micky" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:57:34 -0400, wrote:


"Never tap into your vehicles brake hydraulic system... " Who's going
to do that!!!


Used to be the only way to get trailer brakes. All the brake
controllers were hydraulic over electric.

Wow. I guess that fully explains their warning, but it sounds
awfully hard to do, both at the car end and the trailer end.

It would be today with all the anti-lock and dual master cylinder. Years
ago, it was just cutting, flaring, adding fittings. Well within the
abilities of the old shade tree mechanics.

On Aug 20, 5:33*pm, micky wrote:
I was amazed to learn this week that a lot of passenger cars not only
have the holes drilled in the frame to attach a hitch, but they even
have nuts welded on the top of the holes so that one can just bolt the
hitch on.**

However the nut threads are often clogged with dirt and rust.

Rather than hunt for thread chaser for this particular metric size,
and rather than buying a whole set of metric taps, I thought I could
make my own thread chaser by buying a bolt the right size and grinding
a couple grooves up from the end of the bolt maybe 3/4" long.

Do you think this will work? * * It sounds quicker and easier than
shopping for something I will use for only 4 or 6 holes total.

The car is 11 years old and was in Florida or South Carolina almost
all its life. *Probably not as rusty as some cars.

**I think that's amazing. * This accounts for why they keep saying the
hitch can be attached in 30 minutes, more or less, and why those
making comments said they were able to do it in 30 minutes. .

I also think it's amazing that they go to so much trouble for
something most people never use, and don't even know about. For
example, I've read the owner's manual for the 2000 Solara convertible
I just bought and it discusses towning, but afaict says nothing about
mounting the hitch or how easy it will be. *(It actually discourages
towing.)

Are they being paid by the hitch companies to drill these holes and
weld these nuts? * *After all, I think less than 5 percent of
passenger cars will ever have a hitch attached, expecially if you
don't count SUV's. * * And in some cases, he nuts are welded into a
square tube. *Even if a robot does the welding, it must take a few
minutes to weld on both the side near the end of the tube and the
other side too. *Or do they just weld the left and right sides?

Get some bolts that fit and make your own tap by making longitudonal
cuts with a hacksaw into the thread. Ie at right angles to the thread.
Good enough to get crap out of the threads.

micky wrote:
On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 21:32:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 20:47:28 -0400,
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:57:34 -0400, wrote:


"Never tap into your vehicles brake hydraulic system... " Who's going
to do that!!!


Used to be the only way to get trailer brakes. All the brake
controllers were hydraulic over electric.

Wow. I guess that fully explains their warning, but it sounds
awfully hard to do, both at the car end and the trailer end.

Dead simple, actually. Remove the line from the master cyl (single in
those days), install a "T" and run the line to the controller. The
controller sent a varying current to the brakes, propoertional to
brake pressure.

I think the Toyoat manual was talking about something else. It said
it "would lower the braking effectiveness" which to me meant using the
hydraulic pressure of the car to apply the brakes of the trailer.
Which means running a hydraulic line from the car to the trailer!

Just using the pressure to run the controller a few inches away
wouldn't hurt braking effectiveness at all, would it? I assume the
line to the controller was bled. .

So now I've changed my mind and it still sounds alarmist by Toyota.

Trailer end was the same as today. I installed dozens
- possibly hundreds of them over the years.
Hmmm,
Trailer surge brake is self contained.

In article ,
aemeijers wrote:

I think they consider it cheap insurance against the hack job welded-on
hitch installs that used to be common, where some idiot got their tow
vehicle upside down and killed themselves, and the widow and her lawyer
went after the deep pockets. A couple threaded hardpoints on every frame
costs next to nothing to add during the manufacturing process- no
different than all the other premade holes for brackets to attach to.
Especially true with unit-body cars- a shade-tree hitch install on those
can put bolt holes in places where it could cause real problems.

You don't think some heavy-duty pop rivets through the fuel tank would
be adequate, then?