I'm confused. I just ran out of water.

It's dry season, and it's a new house (to me) and the water tanks are
'empty' and the wells are barely re-filling them.

I ran some calculations which, if I may, I would like to compare with your
situation.

Fundamentally, I ask: Is 3,094 US gallons a reasonable storage level?

Demographics:
- Family of five (two teens)
- 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water every few
days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface evaporation)
- 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800 sprinklers
- Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per zone
- The well pump runs for a few minutes (varies from a minute to about ten
minutes) and then shuts off due to lack of water ... waits a prescribed 30
minutes ... and then starts the cycle anew). I'm guessing roughly 100
gallons per cycle (but that's a very rough guess as there is no meter).
- Northern California (zero rain from about March to about December, but,
when it rains (January/February/March), it pours!)

Calculations:
- I have two equal-sized cylindrical steel water tanks
- I have only one well (which is 500 feet deep)
- There is no meter anywhere on the water flow (hence my dilemma).
- I measured the two steel water tanks at 120" inches tall & 241.5 inches
in circumference (the diameter is difficult to measure as the top is
domed).
- Geometry gives us, however, a diameter of 77 inches per tank.
- Geometry gives us a volume of 556,936.45 cubic inches per tank.
- This web site converts cubic inches to US wet gallons:
http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm
- Using that web site, the nominal capacity of each tank calculates to
2,411 gallons (i.e., 1 US gallon is 231 cubic inches)
- That means, the total nominal volume for both tanks is twice that, i.e.,
4,822 gallons.
- However, the usable volume is aparently only 3,094 gallons (1,547 gallons
per tank).
- The fire hydrant seems to get 1,446 gallons (723 gallons per tank)
- And the top air space of 282 gallons is apparently unused (141 gallons
per tank)
- Doublechecking the math:
- 1,446 fire gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 282 air space gallons = 4,822
nominal gallons.

Fundamentally, I ask:
Q: Is 3,094 gallons a reasonable usable quantity for a family of four?


PLEASE IGNORE IF NOT INTERESTED THE FURTHER CALCULATION DETAILS BELOW:
- Based on float movement, the total 'range' of usable water is only 77
linear inches (which calculates to 357,367.55 cubic inches, or 1,547
gallons per tank, which is a total usable water of 3,094 gallons).
- This number comes from 36in + 77in + 7in = 120 inches as explained below:
a) The level indicator is a wooden block which goes down when the water
level goes up, and which goes up when the water level goes down (i.e.,
reverse logic).
b) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 36 inches to the
top of the tank, which, (by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means
that the bottom 36 inches of water is for the mandatory fire hydrant on the
property (which calculates to 167,081 cubic inches per tank, or 723 gallons
per tank, for a total fire-only storage of 1,446 gallons).
c) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 7 inches to the
bottom of the tank, which (again, by the reverse logic of the float
mechanism) means that the top 7 inches of the tank is never reached (which
calculates to 32,488 cubic inches of air at the top, or 141 gallons per
tank).
- To put it together, 7 inches of air space + 77 inches of usable water +
36 inches for the fire hydrant = 120 inches of nominal tank height.
- In gallons, that works out to 282 air space gallons + 3,094 house gallons
+ 1,446 fire gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons.

I know it's a lot of calculations ... but ... fundamentally ... I ask if
this setup seems weird to you?

To me, it seems like not enough water (and the fact I ran out today shows
that ... but maybe I've been irrigating too much and I 'should' fix the
pool leaks also ... plus maybe this is a lull in the water supply since it
doesn't rain for 9 or 10 months of the year out here in the hills.

Do any of you have comparison figures?

On Aug 11, 3:35*pm, SF Man wrote:
I'm confused. I just ran out of water.

It's dry season, and it's a new house (to me) and the water tanks are
'empty' and the wells are barely re-filling them.

I ran some calculations which, if I may, I would like to compare with your
situation.

Fundamentally, I ask: Is 3,094 US gallons a reasonable storage level?

Demographics:
- Family of five (two teens)
- 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water every few
days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface evaporation)
- 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800 sprinklers
- Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per zone
- The well pump runs for a few minutes (varies from a minute to about ten
minutes) and then shuts off due to lack of water ... waits a prescribed 30
minutes ... and then starts the cycle anew). I'm guessing roughly 100
gallons per cycle (but that's a very rough guess as there is no meter).
- Northern California (zero rain from about March to about December, but,
when it rains (January/February/March), it pours!)

Calculations:
- I have two equal-sized cylindrical steel water tanks
- I have only one well (which is 500 feet deep)
- There is no meter anywhere on the water flow (hence my dilemma).
- I measured the two steel water tanks at 120" inches tall & 241.5 inches
in circumference (the diameter is difficult to measure as the top is
domed).
- Geometry gives us, however, a diameter of 77 inches per tank.
- Geometry gives us a volume of 556,936.45 cubic inches per tank.
- This web site converts cubic inches to US wet gallons:http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm
- Using that web site, the nominal capacity of each tank calculates to
2,411 gallons (i.e., 1 US gallon is 231 cubic inches)
- That means, the total nominal volume for both tanks is twice that, i.e.,
4,822 gallons.
- However, the usable volume is aparently only 3,094 gallons (1,547 gallons
per tank).
- The fire hydrant seems to get 1,446 gallons (723 gallons per tank)
- And the top air space of 282 gallons is apparently unused (141 gallons
per tank)
- Doublechecking the math:
- 1,446 fire gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 282 air space gallons = 4,822
nominal gallons.

Fundamentally, I ask:
Q: Is 3,094 gallons a reasonable usable quantity for a family of four?

PLEASE IGNORE IF NOT INTERESTED THE FURTHER CALCULATION DETAILS BELOW:
- Based on float movement, the total 'range' of usable water is only 77
linear inches (which calculates to 357,367.55 cubic inches, or 1,547
gallons per tank, which is a total usable water of 3,094 gallons).
- This number comes from 36in + 77in + 7in = 120 inches as explained below:
a) The level indicator is a wooden block which goes down when the water
level goes up, and which goes up when the water level goes down (i.e.,
reverse logic).
b) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 36 inches to the
top of the tank, which, (by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means
that the bottom 36 inches of water is for the mandatory fire hydrant on the
property (which calculates to 167,081 cubic inches per tank, or 723 gallons
per tank, for a total fire-only storage of 1,446 gallons).
c) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 7 inches to the
bottom of the tank, which (again, by the reverse logic of the float
mechanism) means that the top 7 inches of the tank is never reached (which
calculates to 32,488 cubic inches of air at the top, or 141 gallons per
tank).
- To put it together, 7 inches of air space + 77 inches of usable water +
36 inches for the fire hydrant = 120 inches of nominal tank height.
- In gallons, that works out to 282 air space gallons + 3,094 house gallons
+ 1,446 fire gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons.

I know it's a lot of calculations ... but ... fundamentally ... I ask if
this setup seems weird to you?

To me, it seems like not enough water (and the fact I ran out today shows
that ... but maybe I've been irrigating too much and I 'should' fix the
pool leaks also ... plus maybe this is a lull in the water supply since it
doesn't rain for 9 or 10 months of the year out here in the hills.

Do any of you have comparison figures?

Get a meter. They are all over ebay. I got one for $40.

Just off hand it looks to me like you are using too much water for a
well. You've pulled the nearby water table down and it can't keep
up. Doesn't matter how much you store if you can draw it at the same
rate you are using it the you run out. Fix your pool and quit
irrigating.

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote:

Get a meter. They are all over ebay. I got one for $40.

I googled for "well water meter" and found this wikipedia article:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_meter

Apparently, in California, we must buy lead-free materials, so, the price
for me to buy just the water meter and lead-free unions is no less than
$113 + 9% tax + shipping and could be as high as $670 based on this web
page:
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wameters.html

I'm not sure what my 'size' is ... as there are white PVC and galvanized
pipes in the line.

It looks like the PVC is about 1.5 inches outside diameter while the
galvanized pipe seems to be an eight of an inch larger (more than 1.5 but
less than 1.75 inches).

Do those pipe sizes make sense?

Just off hand it looks to me like you are using too much water for a
well.

Bummer.

Fix your pool and quit irrigating.

I think I'll do both plus add a pool cover to stave off evaporation.

On Aug 11, 6:29*pm, SF Man wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote:
Get a meter. * They are all over ebay. *I got one for $40.

I googled for "well water meter" and found this wikipedia article:
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_meter

Apparently, in California, we must buy lead-free materials, so, the price
for me to buy just the water meter and lead-free unions is no less than
$113 + 9% tax + shipping and could be as high as $670 based on this web
page:http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wameters.html

I'm not sure what my 'size' is ... as there are white PVC and galvanized
pipes in the line.

It looks like the PVC is about 1.5 inches outside diameter while the
galvanized pipe seems to be an eight of an inch larger (more than 1.5 but
less than 1.75 inches).

Do those pipe sizes make sense?

Just off hand it looks to me like you are using too much water for a
well. *

Bummer.

Fix your pool and quit irrigating.

I think I'll do both plus add a pool cover to stave off evaporation.

The meters are bronze. No lead. At the moment they are common on
ebay because many areas are switching to metering that can be read
electronically. So surplus regular meter stock is being sold off. A
few bucks more to adapt the meter connections to glavianized or pvc.

On Aug 12, 5:13*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Aug 11, 6:29*pm, SF Man wrote:









On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote:
Get a meter. * They are all over ebay. *I got one for $40.


SNIP


Apparently, in California, we must buy lead-free materials, so, the price
for me to buy just the water meter and lead-free unions is no less than
$113 + 9% tax + shipping and could be as high as $670 based on this web
page:http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wameters.html

SNIP


The meters are bronze. *No lead. *At the moment they are common on
ebay because many areas are switching to metering that can be read
electronically. *So surplus regular meter stock is being sold off. *A
few bucks more to adapt the meter connections to glavianized or pvc.

JG-

Our California legislature, in their infinite wisdom, passed
legislation that require 100% Lead Free alloys for devices used on
potable water.

Many mfrs & suppliers now have a CA compliant model & "the rest of the
country".....there a few other states that have this requirement.

The amount of lead in the "non-lead free" units in not really very
high . If I were the OP I'd consider a used one on eday (as was
sugested)

cheers
Bob

On Aug 12, 11:26*am, DD_BobK wrote:
On Aug 12, 5:13*am, jamesgangnc wrote:

On Aug 11, 6:29*pm, SF Man wrote:

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote:
Get a meter. * They are all over ebay. *I got one for $40.

SNIP

Apparently, in California, we must buy lead-free materials, so, the price
for me to buy just the water meter and lead-free unions is no less than
$113 + 9% tax + shipping and could be as high as $670 based on this web
page:http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wameters.html

SNIP

The meters are bronze. *No lead. *At the moment they are common on
ebay because many areas are switching to metering that can be read
electronically. *So surplus regular meter stock is being sold off. *A
few bucks more to adapt the meter connections to glavianized or pvc.

JG-

Our California legislature, *in their infinite wisdom, passed
legislation that require 100% Lead Free alloys for devices used on
potable water.

Many mfrs & suppliers now have a CA compliant model & "the rest of the
country".....there a few other states that have this requirement.

The amount of lead in the "non-lead free" units in not really very
high . *If I were the OP I'd consider a used one on eday (as was
sugested)

cheers
Bob

You can get new ones on ebay. Cheap. And bronze is copper and tin.
I'm guessing the manufacturer is sticking a california sticker on some
of them and doubling the price.

I'd be thinking about getting several in the OP's sitiuation. You
could put one on the irrigation, one on the house, one on the outdoor
lines and pool.

SF Man wrote:

Fundamentally, I ask:
Q: Is 3,094 gallons a reasonable usable quantity for a family of four?

Per day? week? month?

My wife and I used to use about 100 gallons per week when we lived on a
boat. Salt water flush, though.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Aug 11, 4:05*pm, "dadiOH" wrote:
SF Man wrote:
Fundamentally, I ask:
Q: Is 3,094 gallons a reasonable usable quantity for a family of four?

Per day? *week? *month?

My wife and I used to use about 100 gallons per week when we lived on a
boat. *Salt water flush, though.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it athttp://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Here in NJ my municipality
has a fixed fee for the first 6000 gallons a month. That is a
reasonable amount for a small family without a pool, lawn
irrigation or other larger usages. Above 6,000 they charge for
excess.

It seems the real issue here is that the well can apparently
only deliver 200 GPH. As to what the storage level should
be, I'd say 3500 gallons is way above what storage level is
needed for domestic usage. But he also mentioned "fire
hydrant". Don't know anything about that, but having 3500
gallons around if it's the source for fire hydrants then sounds
like a more logical situation. Without that, a tank of even
500 gallons would seem to be plenty. It gets refilled at 200GPH.
So, you could pull 700 gallons in an hour of high demand and
still not run out.

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:54:16 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

my municipality has a fixed fee for the first 6000 gallons ...
Above 6,000 they charge for excess.

While I don't pay for my water, per se, California still 'gets' me as they
assess a 'baseline' electricity fee per houshold, which, with 3 pool pumps
and the well pump, is exceeded in the first week or two of the month.

Then they hit you hard on the electricity for up to 300% and even 400% of
the baseline charge such that my last kilowatt costs over 50 cents.

It seems the real issue here is that the well can apparently
only deliver 200 GPH.

That was my initial wild-eyed guess. I think it's far worse than that - at
least in the dry season which we're amidst right now.

I measured it just now (roughly) at 5 gallons per minute for only three
minutes, which is about 15 gallons, every half hour. So, that's only 30
gallons per hour if my math is right. Round that to an even 50 gallons per
hour which is half of my original estimate.

I'd say 3500 gallons is way above what storage level is needed for
domestic usage. But he also mentioned "fire hydrant".

It appears they 'rigged' the controls such that the two tanks hold 4,450
gallons (when full), and then the next 3,094 gallons can be used by the
house, and then the house goes dry.

But, there is still another 1,446 gallons left in the tanks which can be
accessed via a 4-inch wide pipe that goes to the fire hydrant.

having 3500 gallons around if it's the source for fire hydrants then sounds
like a more logical situation.

If both tanks are full, the entire 4,450 gallons would be available for the
fire hydrant (but, I suspect, any self-respecting fire department would
just suck the water out of the pool which is almost ten times larger).

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 16:05:30 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

Per day? week? month?
My wife and I used to use about 100 gallons per week when we lived on a
boat. Salt water flush, though.

I'm sorry. I don't know the amount of water used per day or per week.

There are no meters, either incoming from the well or outgoing to the
house.

The poster 'jamesgangnc' advised me to purchase a water meter for my
(nominal) 1.5 inch outside diameter line, which will cost about $115 for
the meter and California lead-free couplings ... but ... I'm not sure if I
should put that meter in the well line or in the line to the house (or
both).
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wameters.html

The 3,094 gallons is simply how much water I have available when the 4,540
gallon tanks are full (the difference of 1,446 gallons is for the fire
hydrant as we're in a severe fire hazard zone).

Seems to me that's puny, considering there is no rain for ten months of the
year.

There are no meters, either incoming from the well or outgoing to the
house.


Each member of your household probably uses 50 to 100 gallons a day. A
faucet running uses 1.5 gallons a minute. You probably have barely enough
water for your houshold with little extra for watering or pool use.

- The well pump runs for a few minutes (varies from a minute to about ten
minutes) and then shuts off due to lack of water ... waits a prescribed 30
minutes ... and then starts the cycle anew). I'm guessing roughly 100
gallons per cycle (but that's a very rough guess as there is no meter).

!00 gallons every 30 minutes is a well pumping about 3 gallons per minute.
A well producing 3 gallons per minute can pump about 4000 gallons a day.
Considering the water used every day I don't think that you could fill any
additonal storage.
You need to determine your wells capacity more accurately and evaluate
whether your storage ever fills leaving your well idle for any length of
time.

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:36:15 -0700, Pat wrote:

You need to determine your wells capacity more accurately and evaluate
whether your storage ever fills leaving your well idle for any length of
time.

I'll do some research to see how to measure well capacity at home as a DIY.

My ad-hoc method just now (lowering a bucket into the top of the tank to
fill with the incoming water) came up with roughly 5 gallons per minute but
it only lasted for about 3 minutes before it went dry (and shut off for the
mandatory 30 minutes).

I need to measure that in the rainy season to see if it can hold that for
longer than 3 minutes as it could be as high as 5x60=300 gallons per hour
if the water table would hold up.

Googling for "how to measure well flow rate", I find:
- http://www.inspectapedia.com/water/Well_Flow_Test.htm
- http://www.purewaterproducts.com/wellcapacity.htm
etc.

So, I'll be reading those to see how to get a better handle on the
situation.

PS: Measuring well 'health' seems like it could be a fun DIY project if it
wasn't so dire at the moment!

"SF Man" wrote in message
...

I'm confused. I just ran out of water. . . .
Fundamentally, I ask: Is 3,094 US gallons a reasonable storage level?

Demographics: . . .
- Northern California (zero rain from about March to about December, but,
when it rains (January/February/March), it pours!)

We might expect a wealthy state like California to have
an Agricultural Extension department expressly to advise
on local problems like this. Water shortage in California
is sufficiently well-known to have figured in a number of
Hollywood crime movies: but I recall no mention of
Ag. Ext. in any of those.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

On Aug 11, 5:04*pm, "Don Phillipson" wrote:
"SF Man" wrote in message

...

I'm confused. I just ran out of water. . . .
Fundamentally, I ask: Is 3,094 US gallons a reasonable storage level?

Demographics: . . .
- Northern California (zero rain from about March to about December, but,
when it rains (January/February/March), it pours!)

We might expect a wealthy state like California to have
an Agricultural Extension department expressly to advise
on local problems like this.

Expecting to have govt available for free advice on a well
problem is exactly the kind of thinking that has bankrupted
the state of Callifornia and is in the process of bankrupting
the federal govt. Why the hell can't he call a well company?
Also, he has a well producing at about 200GPH, so figuring
out what size tank one needs isn't exactly rocket science.




* Water shortage in California
is sufficiently well-known to have figured in a number of
Hollywood crime movies: *but I recall no mention of
Ag. Ext. in any of those.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:35:11 -0700, SF Man wrote:
I'm confused. I just ran out of water.

FWIW, I just measured the water flow (manually) at approximately 5 gallons
per minute for approximately three minutes (until the water table ran dry).

Here's what I did (does this look reasonable?):

1. I flipped the 220 volt circuit breaker off for the well pump.
2. I waited a half hour for the water table to recover.
3. I climbed on top of the tank, opened the hatch ... and ...
Note: Yuck. If you drink the water, you don't want to look inside the tank!

4. While I positioned the bucket below the water into the tank ...
5. My teen flipped the circuit breaker back on.
6. I measured 5 gallons in one timed minute
Note: The pump shut off in about 3 minutes due to the water table lowering.

So, I 'think', without a meter, that I have a flow of 5 gallons per minute
but that the well can only supply that for three minutes for a grand total
of 15 gallons for every half hour.

Two questions arise:
Q1: Is there a better DIY way to measure the water flow?
Q2: Do these numbers seem in the right ballpark for what you guys
experience?

On Aug 11, 6:43*pm, SF Man wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:35:11 -0700, SF Man wrote:
I'm confused. I just ran out of water.

FWIW, I just measured the water flow (manually) at approximately 5 gallons
per minute for approximately three minutes (until the water table ran dry).

Here's what I did (does this look reasonable?):

1. I flipped the 220 volt circuit breaker off for the well pump.
2. I waited a half hour for the water table to recover.
3. I climbed on top of the tank, opened the hatch ... and ...
Note: Yuck. If you drink the water, you don't want to look inside the tank!

4. While I positioned the bucket below the water into the tank ...
5. My teen flipped the circuit breaker back on.
6. I measured 5 gallons in one timed minute
Note: The pump shut off in about 3 minutes due to the water table lowering.

So, I 'think', without a meter, that I have a flow of 5 gallons per minute
but that the well can only supply that for three minutes for a grand total
of 15 gallons for every half hour.

Two questions arise:
Q1: Is there a better DIY way to measure the water flow?

What you did is OK to a point and for a quick approximation.
To get a better measure I'd turn the water on
very low, like .5 GPM and see at what rate it can keep up
without running dry. Slowly increase the flow rate until it
just runs out of water. Tha'ts the well's continuous flow
rate.



Q2: Do these numbers seem in the right ballpark for what you guys
experience?

A reasonable domestic well target is 15 GPM continuous. Just
had one drilled here in NJ, 4" casing, 50ft deep and that's what
it's yielding. That's enough to support doing things like
watering an acre of lawn with just the well and no tank.
Of course you can't get that in all
areas or with any given well depending on it's condition.
Then you have to figure out what you can get and
what you can support with it. You flow rate of about .5GPM is
extremely low.

I take back what I said before about not seeing the need for
such a large tank. I forgot the irrigation need which is clearly
why you need such a large tank. With a 200 head sprinkler
system, I'm kind of amazed this whole thing works. That's
huge, depending of course on the flow rate of the heads. You're
only pumping 720 gallons of water a day. Even if you water
once every 4 days, that only allows for 2900 gallons, or about
15 gallons a head. A typical rotor on a domestic system is
usually putting out 2gpm. You'd go through that water at
the rate of 7 mins per head.

Have you asked neighbors what their situation is? Either the
aquifer at 500 ft is getting depleted or else you have a well
that just has it;s own problems. If the latter, it's time for
new well. IF the former, then unless there is a deeper
acquifer, I guess you're screwed until the drought ends.
BTW, I though CA drought had ended and this year with
all the snow pack there was plenty of water?

6. I measured 5 gallons in one timed minute
Note: The pump shut off in about 3 minutes due to the water table
lowering.

So, I 'think', without a meter, that I have a flow of 5 gallons per minute
but that the well can only supply that for three minutes for a grand total
of 15 gallons for every half hour.


Your well pump can pump 5 gallons per minute.
Your well can supply half a gallon per minute or 720 gallons per day.
That is not very much water. You probably can't increase it.
You will probably have to reduce the amount you need.

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 18:18:49 -0700, Pat wrote:

Your well pump can pump 5 gallons per minute.
Your well can supply half a gallon per minute or 720 gallons per day.

It's even worse than that because it shuts off every few minutes; then it
waits exactly 1/2 hour, and then kicks on again.

In two days, the tanks rose about 20 inches, which, at 40 gallons
calculated per inch, is 800 gallons ... or 400 gallons a day.

As you said, my only choice is to conserve.

Later, when money permits, I will consider drilling another well (the
property has an elevation change of about 400 feet, so, what I can do is
put the well at the low point of the property and pump it up to the house).

On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 20:59:12 -0700, SF Man
wrote Re May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable
gallons):

Later, when money permits, I will consider drilling another well (the
property has an elevation change of about 400 feet, so, what I can do is
put the well at the low point of the property and pump it up to the house).

There is not guarantee that you will hit water at the low point of the
property.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 07:55:58 -0500, Caesar Romano wrote:

There is not guarantee that you will hit water at the low point of the
property.

Understood.

On Aug 13, 11:59*pm, SF Man wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 18:18:49 -0700, Pat wrote:
Your well pump can pump 5 gallons per minute.
Your well can supply half a gallon per minute or 720 gallons per day.

It's even worse than that because it shuts off every few minutes; then it
waits exactly 1/2 hour, and then kicks on again.

No one has commented on this yet and I think it could
be important. How exactly does it
shut off and wait 30 mins? The issue here is normally
a well pump is designed to run continously and not
run out of water. But since you have those huge tanks
it appears this well was set up to accomodate low flow
from the start. If so, it may have some special mechanism
to cycle the pump. So some thoughts:

A - If it has some special cycling arrangement, is it
possible that is what's screwed up and it might be
short cycling even though the well has not really
run out of water?

B - If doesn't have some special cycling arrangement,
what is shutting it off and keeping it off for 30 mins?
If it's that the pump runs dry and is overheating, I'd
think you'd want to institute some kind of cycling
system, perhaps with a timer, to stop that from
happening. I doubt a submersible pump likes to
run dry, overheat, shutdown. It relies on the water
to cool it.

On Aug 14, 6:31*am, "
wrote:


No one has commented on this yet and I think it could
be important. * How exactly does it
shut off and wait 30 mins? * The issue here is normally
a well pump is designed to run continously and not
run out of water. * But since you have those huge tanks
it appears this well was set up to accomodate low flow
from the start. *If so, it may have some special mechanism
to cycle the pump. *

Good comments

...perhaps his "short cycling" & "dead period" is really a pump control
issue and not completely a well recharge issue.

Getting the pump behavior to match the well / aquifer behavior might
be easiest way to maximize water output.

cheers
Bob

On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 06:31:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

How exactly does it shut off and wait 30 mins?

SEE ATTACHED PHOTOS:
1. House Side: http://picturepush.com/public/6347599
2. Pump Side: http://picturepush.com/public/6347607
3. Well Side: http://picturepush.com/public/6347612

If 'you' can make sense of the setup, I'd LOVE to know how it actually
works!

Why, for example, are their FOUR boxes for the well?

This one of those four boxes does the 30-minute timeout when the well runs
dry:
* Pumptec Model 5800020116 P/N 223122101 Rev 4
* The NoLoad Sensor Pump Protection System for Franklin Submersible Motors

Another box 'must' run the motor itself ... I think it's this one:
* Franklin Electric Model 2801074915, 3/4 HP, 230 volts

A third box is clearly the circuit breaker for the well pump electrical
feed.

The last box, has no writing on it, and I don't know 'what' it does.

If YOU (or anyone) knows what these four "well boxes" do, please edify me!

On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 06:31:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

A - If it has some special cycling arrangement, is it
possible that is what's screwed up and it might be
short cycling even though the well has not really
run out of water?

Yes. That's possible. However, I can 'reset' the cycle, at will, simply by
turning off the power via the circuit breaker.

When I do that, it pumps again, but, all the action is consistent with the
fact that it's running out of water.

For example, if I cycle it right away, almost nothing is pumped before it
shuts off; and if I switch it back on a bit later, more water is pumped.
The longer I wait, the more water is pumped before it shuts off (in a few
minutes).

This, I don't think, is the problem.

But, there are FOUR boxes (that could go bad).
1. One is the circuit breaker
2. The other is the no-load sensor (discussed above).

I'm not sure 'what' the other two a
3. One seems to be the pump controller itself.
4. I'm not sure 'what' that fourth box is.

See photos he
1. House Side: http://picturepush.com/public/6347599
2. Pump Side: http://picturepush.com/public/6347607
3. Well Side: http://picturepush.com/public/6347612

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 15:43:36 -0700, SF Man
wrote Re May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable
gallons):

So, I 'think', without a meter, that I have a flow of 5 gallons per minute
but that the well can only supply that for three minutes for a grand total
of 15 gallons for every half hour.

Two questions arise:
Q1: Is there a better DIY way to measure the water flow?

No, you did a pretty good job there. I believe you now have a good
estimate of what your well and pump can supply over a 24 hour period.

Your in-house water use will be about 50 GPD/person. Slightly more if
you have people taking extra long showers.

You mentioned earlier that your pool use was about 100 GPD ?

Now all you have to do is figure out your irrigation use. My guess is
that irrigation will be a load that your well can't handle during the
drought.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:08:51 -0500, Caesar Romano wrote:

My guess is
that irrigation will be a load that your well can't handle during the
drought.

G.Morgan kindly calculated that for us:
200 sprinklers @ .1 gpm = 20gpm
20 gpm * 20 min. = 400 gallons per watering
15 waterings/month = 6000 gallons

6,000 gallons/30 days = 200 gallons/day.

Based on the fact the tank level rose 20 inches in the past two days, I'm
estimating that the well can supply, in the middle of the dry season, 400
gallons per day (at 40 gallons per inch of tank).

So, I agree with you.

In the dry season, I can't "afford" to irrigate as much (because the house
uses whatever it uses, and the pool uses about 500 gallons every few days).

So, here's my short-term plan:
- Shut off the irrigation (the plants will need to fend for themselves)
- Fix the pool leaks
- Irrigate manually only when the tanks are full

I'm curious how much a pool evaporates.

Those of you with a pool, assuming no leaks, how much does yours evaporate?
(Note: The pool surface area is approximately 900 square feet and it's in
the sun all day, from 6am to about 8pm or so right about now).

On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 20:57:02 -0700, SF Man
wrote Re May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable
gallons):

In the dry season, I can't "afford" to irrigate as much (because the house
uses whatever it uses, and the pool uses about 500 gallons every few days).

So, here's my short-term plan:
- Shut off the irrigation (the plants will need to fend for themselves)
- Fix the pool leaks
- Irrigate manually only when the tanks are full

Is drilling the well deeper an option?


I'm curious how much a pool evaporates.

Those of you with a pool, assuming no leaks, how much does yours evaporate?
(Note: The pool surface area is approximately 900 square feet and it's in
the sun all day, from 6am to about 8pm or so right about now).

1/2" to 1" per day
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_w...es_from_a_pool

--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 07:54:16 -0500, Caesar Romano wrote:

Is drilling the well deeper an option?
I guess that's 'always' an option!

I would start 400 feet lower so the well wouldn't need to be as deep. But,
then the piping would be a few hundred yards in length.

1/2" to 1" per day
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_w...es_from_a_pool

Interesting. For my pool, 1 inch is about 500 gallons. So that's jives with
what I'm seeing (500 gallons every few days).

On Aug 13, 8:57*pm, SF Man wrote:

SNIP

I'm curious how much a pool evaporates.

Those of you with a pool, assuming no leaks, how much does yours evaporate?
(Note: The pool surface area is approximately 900 square feet and it's in
the sun all day, from 6am to about 8pm or so right about now).


Long term pool experience:

Large residential pool in OC, SoCal.
20x40 , all day exposure (yard / pool orientation, East /West)

Winter time usage ~1/2" per week
Summer time water usage ~1/4" to 1/2" per day.
Occasional high wind / hot weather usage as high as 1" per day.

Suggestion: Cover pool to reduce water loss & improve "swimability".

cheers
Bob

On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 09:04:01 -0700 (PDT), DD_BobK wrote:

Occasional high wind / hot weather usage as high as 1" per day.
Suggestion: Cover pool to reduce water loss & improve "swimability".

This meshes with what I'm seeing.

For me, 1 inch is 500 gallons of pool and I lose about an inch every few
days.

I think a pool cover is in order!

SF Man wrote:

- 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water
every few days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface
evaporation)
- 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800
sprinklers
- Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per
zone

Presumably the water you use to keep your pool full and for irrigation
is feeding back into your well, so aside from evaporation I would think
that maybe 1/2 of that water is (eventually) going back into the ground
water feeding your well.

On Aug 11, 7:02*pm, Home Guy wrote:
SF Man wrote:
- 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water
* every few days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface
* evaporation)
- 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800
* sprinklers
- Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per
* zone

Presumably the water you use to keep your pool full and for irrigation
is feeding back into your well, so aside from evaporation I would think
that maybe 1/2 of that water is (eventually) going back into the ground
water feeding your well.

Sounds like a mighty big assumption to me. I doubt what is happening
with water in his little world has any significant impact on the
acquifer
at 500 feet down.

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 16:13:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I doubt what is happening with water in his little world has any
significant impact on the acquifer at 500 feet down.

Someone once told me that the water we drink is a thousand years old ...

But, I don't know that for a fact ...

SF Man wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 16:13:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I doubt what is happening with water in his little world has any
significant impact on the acquifer at 500 feet down.

Someone once told me that the water we drink is a thousand years old
...

But, I don't know that for a fact ...

You can MAKE water by burning Hydrogen.

Virtually all other water is used water.

On Aug 11, 11:24*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
SF Man wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 16:13:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I doubt what is happening with water in his little world has any
significant impact on the acquifer at 500 feet down.

Someone once told me that the water we drink is a thousand years old
...

But, I don't know that for a fact ...

You can MAKE water by burning Hydrogen.

Virtually all other water is used water.

This is part of the problem out there. All these people think they
can have these huge expanses of lawn in basically a dessert.
Eventually it gets like the oil situaton, they are using water from
the aquifer at a rate faster than it is being replenished.

He has the huge tanks for fire protection, irrigation, and filling the
pool. Not related to the domestic use. He has ignored obvious water
wastage like the leaky pool and the zillion head lawn sprinklers
because he thought the water was practically free. He probably has
neighbors doing the same things.

The level of the aquifer in proximilty to his well can get pulled down
to the point where he can not get enough water out of it. Around a
well the aquifer will look like a bowl when the well is in use. How
deep the bowl is depends on how much water is being drawn out and how
fast water can move through the substrate around the well. If the
lowering is prolonged then he needs a deeper well. Otherwise he can
wait it out and the level will slowly recover.

On Aug 11, 7:02*pm, Home Guy wrote:
SF Man wrote:
- 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water
* every few days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface
* evaporation)
- 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800
* sprinklers
- Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per
* zone

Presumably the water you use to keep your pool full and for irrigation
is feeding back into your well, so aside from evaporation I would think
that maybe 1/2 of that water is (eventually) going back into the ground
water feeding your well.

You really don't know anything about aquifers do you? The water he
sprays on the lawn and leaking out of the pool does not end up back in
his well.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 05:16:35 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote:

The water he sprays on the lawn and leaking out of the pool
does not end up back in his well.

I asked about and got a whole bunch of answers.

Basically, nobody really knows where their water comes from out here.
Everybody seems to have a 400 to 800 foot deep well (it's hill country so
just the elevation changes are that much easily). Some have multiple wells
on their property.

Most have larger holding tanks than I have (they have three and four, while
I only have two). There's some kind of zoning thing where you're better off
with multiple small tanks than one big one.

Anyway, I don't know where the water comes from - but - I'm leaning toward
the theory that it's a thousand years old water myself.

On Aug 11, 12:35*pm, SF Man wrote:
I'm confused. I just ran out of water.

It's dry season, and it's a new house (to me) and the water tanks are
'empty' and the wells are barely re-filling them.

I ran some calculations which, if I may, I would like to compare with your
situation.

Fundamentally, I ask: Is 3,094 US gallons a reasonable storage level?

Demographics:
- Family of five (two teens)
- 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water every few
days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface evaporation)
- 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800 sprinklers
- Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per zone
- The well pump runs for a few minutes (varies from a minute to about ten
minutes) and then shuts off due to lack of water ... waits a prescribed 30
minutes ... and then starts the cycle anew). I'm guessing roughly 100
gallons per cycle (but that's a very rough guess as there is no meter).
- Northern California (zero rain from about March to about December, but,
when it rains (January/February/March), it pours!)

Calculations:
- I have two equal-sized cylindrical steel water tanks
- I have only one well (which is 500 feet deep)
- There is no meter anywhere on the water flow (hence my dilemma).
- I measured the two steel water tanks at 120" inches tall & 241.5 inches
in circumference (the diameter is difficult to measure as the top is
domed).
- Geometry gives us, however, a diameter of 77 inches per tank.
- Geometry gives us a volume of 556,936.45 cubic inches per tank.
- This web site converts cubic inches to US wet gallons:http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm
- Using that web site, the nominal capacity of each tank calculates to
2,411 gallons (i.e., 1 US gallon is 231 cubic inches)
- That means, the total nominal volume for both tanks is twice that, i.e.,
4,822 gallons.
- However, the usable volume is aparently only 3,094 gallons (1,547 gallons
per tank).
- The fire hydrant seems to get 1,446 gallons (723 gallons per tank)
- And the top air space of 282 gallons is apparently unused (141 gallons
per tank)
- Doublechecking the math:
- 1,446 fire gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 282 air space gallons = 4,822
nominal gallons.

Fundamentally, I ask:
Q: Is 3,094 gallons a reasonable usable quantity for a family of four?

PLEASE IGNORE IF NOT INTERESTED THE FURTHER CALCULATION DETAILS BELOW:
- Based on float movement, the total 'range' of usable water is only 77
linear inches (which calculates to 357,367.55 cubic inches, or 1,547
gallons per tank, which is a total usable water of 3,094 gallons).
- This number comes from 36in + 77in + 7in = 120 inches as explained below:
a) The level indicator is a wooden block which goes down when the water
level goes up, and which goes up when the water level goes down (i.e.,
reverse logic).
b) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 36 inches to the
top of the tank, which, (by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means
that the bottom 36 inches of water is for the mandatory fire hydrant on the
property (which calculates to 167,081 cubic inches per tank, or 723 gallons
per tank, for a total fire-only storage of 1,446 gallons).
c) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 7 inches to the
bottom of the tank, which (again, by the reverse logic of the float
mechanism) means that the top 7 inches of the tank is never reached (which
calculates to 32,488 cubic inches of air at the top, or 141 gallons per
tank).
- To put it together, 7 inches of air space + 77 inches of usable water +
36 inches for the fire hydrant = 120 inches of nominal tank height.
- In gallons, that works out to 282 air space gallons + 3,094 house gallons
+ 1,446 fire gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons.

I know it's a lot of calculations ... but ... fundamentally ... I ask if
this setup seems weird to you?

To me, it seems like not enough water (and the fact I ran out today shows
that ... but maybe I've been irrigating too much and I 'should' fix the
pool leaks also ... plus maybe this is a lull in the water supply since it
doesn't rain for 9 or 10 months of the year out here in the hills.

Do any of you have comparison figures?

At the risk of venturing a radical proposal, why not practice some
water conservancy?
If you are running your well dry, you are impacting the water table,
which no doubt is impacting any neighbors' usage as well.

If the irrigation is not being used for consumables, switch to
indigenous species that are used to your local precipitation. I know
everybody
likes green, but water is a precious commodity in this century. Leave
some behind so your kids can fill their pool.

Just a thought.

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 16:34:04 -0700 (PDT), gwandsh wrote:

If the irrigation is not being used for consumables, switch to
indigenous species that are used to your local precipitation.

The irrigation is just for the grass. There are no consumables (other than
a few orange and olive trees scattered about).

The only problem is that there is absolutely zero precipitation. Of course,
the chaparall grows fine on the fog in the morning - but there won't be a
single drop of rain for ten months ... so ... not much in a 'yard' would
grow sans sprinklers.

I did, for now, turn 'off' the irrigation. I will also drastically lower
it. Maybe once or twice a week instead of ever other day.

Also, I found a leaky hose (but I can't imagine it leaked a thousand
gallons) which I removed.