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#1
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
I'm confused. I just ran out of water.
It's dry season, and it's a new house (to me) and the water tanks are 'empty' and the wells are barely re-filling them. I ran some calculations which, if I may, I would like to compare with your situation. Fundamentally, I ask: Is 3,094 US gallons a reasonable storage level? Demographics: - Family of five (two teens) - 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water every few days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface evaporation) - 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800 sprinklers - Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per zone - The well pump runs for a few minutes (varies from a minute to about ten minutes) and then shuts off due to lack of water ... waits a prescribed 30 minutes ... and then starts the cycle anew). I'm guessing roughly 100 gallons per cycle (but that's a very rough guess as there is no meter). - Northern California (zero rain from about March to about December, but, when it rains (January/February/March), it pours!) Calculations: - I have two equal-sized cylindrical steel water tanks - I have only one well (which is 500 feet deep) - There is no meter anywhere on the water flow (hence my dilemma). - I measured the two steel water tanks at 120" inches tall & 241.5 inches in circumference (the diameter is difficult to measure as the top is domed). - Geometry gives us, however, a diameter of 77 inches per tank. - Geometry gives us a volume of 556,936.45 cubic inches per tank. - This web site converts cubic inches to US wet gallons: http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm - Using that web site, the nominal capacity of each tank calculates to 2,411 gallons (i.e., 1 US gallon is 231 cubic inches) - That means, the total nominal volume for both tanks is twice that, i.e., 4,822 gallons. - However, the usable volume is aparently only 3,094 gallons (1,547 gallons per tank). - The fire hydrant seems to get 1,446 gallons (723 gallons per tank) - And the top air space of 282 gallons is apparently unused (141 gallons per tank) - Doublechecking the math: - 1,446 fire gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 282 air space gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons. Fundamentally, I ask: Q: Is 3,094 gallons a reasonable usable quantity for a family of four? PLEASE IGNORE IF NOT INTERESTED THE FURTHER CALCULATION DETAILS BELOW: - Based on float movement, the total 'range' of usable water is only 77 linear inches (which calculates to 357,367.55 cubic inches, or 1,547 gallons per tank, which is a total usable water of 3,094 gallons). - This number comes from 36in + 77in + 7in = 120 inches as explained below: a) The level indicator is a wooden block which goes down when the water level goes up, and which goes up when the water level goes down (i.e., reverse logic). b) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 36 inches to the top of the tank, which, (by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means that the bottom 36 inches of water is for the mandatory fire hydrant on the property (which calculates to 167,081 cubic inches per tank, or 723 gallons per tank, for a total fire-only storage of 1,446 gallons). c) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 7 inches to the bottom of the tank, which (again, by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means that the top 7 inches of the tank is never reached (which calculates to 32,488 cubic inches of air at the top, or 141 gallons per tank). - To put it together, 7 inches of air space + 77 inches of usable water + 36 inches for the fire hydrant = 120 inches of nominal tank height. - In gallons, that works out to 282 air space gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 1,446 fire gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons. I know it's a lot of calculations ... but ... fundamentally ... I ask if this setup seems weird to you? To me, it seems like not enough water (and the fact I ran out today shows that ... but maybe I've been irrigating too much and I 'should' fix the pool leaks also ... plus maybe this is a lull in the water supply since it doesn't rain for 9 or 10 months of the year out here in the hills. Do any of you have comparison figures? |
#2
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 11, 3:35*pm, SF Man wrote:
I'm confused. I just ran out of water. It's dry season, and it's a new house (to me) and the water tanks are 'empty' and the wells are barely re-filling them. I ran some calculations which, if I may, I would like to compare with your situation. Fundamentally, I ask: Is 3,094 US gallons a reasonable storage level? Demographics: - Family of five (two teens) - 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water every few days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface evaporation) - 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800 sprinklers - Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per zone - The well pump runs for a few minutes (varies from a minute to about ten minutes) and then shuts off due to lack of water ... waits a prescribed 30 minutes ... and then starts the cycle anew). I'm guessing roughly 100 gallons per cycle (but that's a very rough guess as there is no meter). - Northern California (zero rain from about March to about December, but, when it rains (January/February/March), it pours!) Calculations: - I have two equal-sized cylindrical steel water tanks - I have only one well (which is 500 feet deep) - There is no meter anywhere on the water flow (hence my dilemma). - I measured the two steel water tanks at 120" inches tall & 241.5 inches in circumference (the diameter is difficult to measure as the top is domed). - Geometry gives us, however, a diameter of 77 inches per tank. - Geometry gives us a volume of 556,936.45 cubic inches per tank. - This web site converts cubic inches to US wet gallons:http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm - Using that web site, the nominal capacity of each tank calculates to 2,411 gallons (i.e., 1 US gallon is 231 cubic inches) - That means, the total nominal volume for both tanks is twice that, i.e., 4,822 gallons. - However, the usable volume is aparently only 3,094 gallons (1,547 gallons per tank). - The fire hydrant seems to get 1,446 gallons (723 gallons per tank) - And the top air space of 282 gallons is apparently unused (141 gallons per tank) - Doublechecking the math: - 1,446 fire gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 282 air space gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons. Fundamentally, I ask: Q: Is 3,094 gallons a reasonable usable quantity for a family of four? PLEASE IGNORE IF NOT INTERESTED THE FURTHER CALCULATION DETAILS BELOW: - Based on float movement, the total 'range' of usable water is only 77 linear inches (which calculates to 357,367.55 cubic inches, or 1,547 gallons per tank, which is a total usable water of 3,094 gallons). - This number comes from 36in + 77in + 7in = 120 inches as explained below: a) The level indicator is a wooden block which goes down when the water level goes up, and which goes up when the water level goes down (i.e., reverse logic). b) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 36 inches to the top of the tank, which, (by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means that the bottom 36 inches of water is for the mandatory fire hydrant on the property (which calculates to 167,081 cubic inches per tank, or 723 gallons per tank, for a total fire-only storage of 1,446 gallons). c) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 7 inches to the bottom of the tank, which (again, by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means that the top 7 inches of the tank is never reached (which calculates to 32,488 cubic inches of air at the top, or 141 gallons per tank). - To put it together, 7 inches of air space + 77 inches of usable water + 36 inches for the fire hydrant = 120 inches of nominal tank height. - In gallons, that works out to 282 air space gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 1,446 fire gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons. I know it's a lot of calculations ... but ... fundamentally ... I ask if this setup seems weird to you? To me, it seems like not enough water (and the fact I ran out today shows that ... but maybe I've been irrigating too much and I 'should' fix the pool leaks also ... plus maybe this is a lull in the water supply since it doesn't rain for 9 or 10 months of the year out here in the hills. Do any of you have comparison figures? Get a meter. They are all over ebay. I got one for $40. Just off hand it looks to me like you are using too much water for a well. You've pulled the nearby water table down and it can't keep up. Doesn't matter how much you store if you can draw it at the same rate you are using it the you run out. Fix your pool and quit irrigating. |
#3
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
SF Man wrote:
Fundamentally, I ask: Q: Is 3,094 gallons a reasonable usable quantity for a family of four? Per day? week? month? My wife and I used to use about 100 gallons per week when we lived on a boat. Salt water flush, though. -- dadiOH ____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico |
#4
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
- The well pump runs for a few minutes (varies from a minute to about ten minutes) and then shuts off due to lack of water ... waits a prescribed 30 minutes ... and then starts the cycle anew). I'm guessing roughly 100 gallons per cycle (but that's a very rough guess as there is no meter). !00 gallons every 30 minutes is a well pumping about 3 gallons per minute. A well producing 3 gallons per minute can pump about 4000 gallons a day. Considering the water used every day I don't think that you could fill any additonal storage. You need to determine your wells capacity more accurately and evaluate whether your storage ever fills leaving your well idle for any length of time. |
#5
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 11, 4:05*pm, "dadiOH" wrote:
SF Man wrote: Fundamentally, I ask: Q: Is 3,094 gallons a reasonable usable quantity for a family of four? Per day? *week? *month? My wife and I used to use about 100 gallons per week when we lived on a boat. *Salt water flush, though. -- dadiOH ____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it athttp://mysite.verizon.net/xico Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Here in NJ my municipality has a fixed fee for the first 6000 gallons a month. That is a reasonable amount for a small family without a pool, lawn irrigation or other larger usages. Above 6,000 they charge for excess. It seems the real issue here is that the well can apparently only deliver 200 GPH. As to what the storage level should be, I'd say 3500 gallons is way above what storage level is needed for domestic usage. But he also mentioned "fire hydrant". Don't know anything about that, but having 3500 gallons around if it's the source for fire hydrants then sounds like a more logical situation. Without that, a tank of even 500 gallons would seem to be plenty. It gets refilled at 200GPH. So, you could pull 700 gallons in an hour of high demand and still not run out. |
#6
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
"SF Man" wrote in message
... I'm confused. I just ran out of water. . . . Fundamentally, I ask: Is 3,094 US gallons a reasonable storage level? Demographics: . . . - Northern California (zero rain from about March to about December, but, when it rains (January/February/March), it pours!) We might expect a wealthy state like California to have an Agricultural Extension department expressly to advise on local problems like this. Water shortage in California is sufficiently well-known to have figured in a number of Hollywood crime movies: but I recall no mention of Ag. Ext. in any of those. -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) |
#7
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 11, 5:04*pm, "Don Phillipson" wrote:
"SF Man" wrote in message ... I'm confused. I just ran out of water. . . . Fundamentally, I ask: Is 3,094 US gallons a reasonable storage level? Demographics: . . . - Northern California (zero rain from about March to about December, but, when it rains (January/February/March), it pours!) We might expect a wealthy state like California to have an Agricultural Extension department expressly to advise on local problems like this. Expecting to have govt available for free advice on a well problem is exactly the kind of thinking that has bankrupted the state of Callifornia and is in the process of bankrupting the federal govt. Why the hell can't he call a well company? Also, he has a well producing at about 200GPH, so figuring out what size tank one needs isn't exactly rocket science. * Water shortage in California is sufficiently well-known to have figured in a number of Hollywood crime movies: *but I recall no mention of Ag. Ext. in any of those. -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) |
#8
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote:
Get a meter. They are all over ebay. I got one for $40. I googled for "well water meter" and found this wikipedia article: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_meter Apparently, in California, we must buy lead-free materials, so, the price for me to buy just the water meter and lead-free unions is no less than $113 + 9% tax + shipping and could be as high as $670 based on this web page: http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wameters.html I'm not sure what my 'size' is ... as there are white PVC and galvanized pipes in the line. It looks like the PVC is about 1.5 inches outside diameter while the galvanized pipe seems to be an eight of an inch larger (more than 1.5 but less than 1.75 inches). Do those pipe sizes make sense? Just off hand it looks to me like you are using too much water for a well. Bummer. Fix your pool and quit irrigating. I think I'll do both plus add a pool cover to stave off evaporation. |
#9
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 16:05:30 -0400, dadiOH wrote:
Per day? week? month? My wife and I used to use about 100 gallons per week when we lived on a boat. Salt water flush, though. I'm sorry. I don't know the amount of water used per day or per week. There are no meters, either incoming from the well or outgoing to the house. The poster 'jamesgangnc' advised me to purchase a water meter for my (nominal) 1.5 inch outside diameter line, which will cost about $115 for the meter and California lead-free couplings ... but ... I'm not sure if I should put that meter in the well line or in the line to the house (or both). http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wameters.html The 3,094 gallons is simply how much water I have available when the 4,540 gallon tanks are full (the difference of 1,446 gallons is for the fire hydrant as we're in a severe fire hazard zone). Seems to me that's puny, considering there is no rain for ten months of the year. |
#10
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:35:11 -0700, SF Man wrote:
I'm confused. I just ran out of water. FWIW, I just measured the water flow (manually) at approximately 5 gallons per minute for approximately three minutes (until the water table ran dry). Here's what I did (does this look reasonable?): 1. I flipped the 220 volt circuit breaker off for the well pump. 2. I waited a half hour for the water table to recover. 3. I climbed on top of the tank, opened the hatch ... and ... Note: Yuck. If you drink the water, you don't want to look inside the tank! 4. While I positioned the bucket below the water into the tank ... 5. My teen flipped the circuit breaker back on. 6. I measured 5 gallons in one timed minute Note: The pump shut off in about 3 minutes due to the water table lowering. So, I 'think', without a meter, that I have a flow of 5 gallons per minute but that the well can only supply that for three minutes for a grand total of 15 gallons for every half hour. Two questions arise: Q1: Is there a better DIY way to measure the water flow? Q2: Do these numbers seem in the right ballpark for what you guys experience? |
#11
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
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#12
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:36:15 -0700, Pat wrote:
You need to determine your wells capacity more accurately and evaluate whether your storage ever fills leaving your well idle for any length of time. I'll do some research to see how to measure well capacity at home as a DIY. My ad-hoc method just now (lowering a bucket into the top of the tank to fill with the incoming water) came up with roughly 5 gallons per minute but it only lasted for about 3 minutes before it went dry (and shut off for the mandatory 30 minutes). I need to measure that in the rainy season to see if it can hold that for longer than 3 minutes as it could be as high as 5x60=300 gallons per hour if the water table would hold up. Googling for "how to measure well flow rate", I find: - http://www.inspectapedia.com/water/Well_Flow_Test.htm - http://www.purewaterproducts.com/wellcapacity.htm etc. So, I'll be reading those to see how to get a better handle on the situation. PS: Measuring well 'health' seems like it could be a fun DIY project if it wasn't so dire at the moment! |
#13
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
SF Man wrote:
- 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water every few days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface evaporation) - 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800 sprinklers - Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per zone Presumably the water you use to keep your pool full and for irrigation is feeding back into your well, so aside from evaporation I would think that maybe 1/2 of that water is (eventually) going back into the ground water feeding your well. |
#14
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 11, 6:43*pm, SF Man wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:35:11 -0700, SF Man wrote: I'm confused. I just ran out of water. FWIW, I just measured the water flow (manually) at approximately 5 gallons per minute for approximately three minutes (until the water table ran dry). Here's what I did (does this look reasonable?): 1. I flipped the 220 volt circuit breaker off for the well pump. 2. I waited a half hour for the water table to recover. 3. I climbed on top of the tank, opened the hatch ... and ... Note: Yuck. If you drink the water, you don't want to look inside the tank! 4. While I positioned the bucket below the water into the tank ... 5. My teen flipped the circuit breaker back on. 6. I measured 5 gallons in one timed minute Note: The pump shut off in about 3 minutes due to the water table lowering. So, I 'think', without a meter, that I have a flow of 5 gallons per minute but that the well can only supply that for three minutes for a grand total of 15 gallons for every half hour. Two questions arise: Q1: Is there a better DIY way to measure the water flow? What you did is OK to a point and for a quick approximation. To get a better measure I'd turn the water on very low, like .5 GPM and see at what rate it can keep up without running dry. Slowly increase the flow rate until it just runs out of water. Tha'ts the well's continuous flow rate. Q2: Do these numbers seem in the right ballpark for what you guys experience? A reasonable domestic well target is 15 GPM continuous. Just had one drilled here in NJ, 4" casing, 50ft deep and that's what it's yielding. That's enough to support doing things like watering an acre of lawn with just the well and no tank. Of course you can't get that in all areas or with any given well depending on it's condition. Then you have to figure out what you can get and what you can support with it. You flow rate of about .5GPM is extremely low. I take back what I said before about not seeing the need for such a large tank. I forgot the irrigation need which is clearly why you need such a large tank. With a 200 head sprinkler system, I'm kind of amazed this whole thing works. That's huge, depending of course on the flow rate of the heads. You're only pumping 720 gallons of water a day. Even if you water once every 4 days, that only allows for 2900 gallons, or about 15 gallons a head. A typical rotor on a domestic system is usually putting out 2gpm. You'd go through that water at the rate of 7 mins per head. Have you asked neighbors what their situation is? Either the aquifer at 500 ft is getting depleted or else you have a well that just has it;s own problems. If the latter, it's time for new well. IF the former, then unless there is a deeper acquifer, I guess you're screwed until the drought ends. BTW, I though CA drought had ended and this year with all the snow pack there was plenty of water? |
#15
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 11, 7:02*pm, Home Guy wrote:
SF Man wrote: - 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water * every few days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface * evaporation) - 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800 * sprinklers - Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per * zone Presumably the water you use to keep your pool full and for irrigation is feeding back into your well, so aside from evaporation I would think that maybe 1/2 of that water is (eventually) going back into the ground water feeding your well. Sounds like a mighty big assumption to me. I doubt what is happening with water in his little world has any significant impact on the acquifer at 500 feet down. |
#16
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 11, 12:35*pm, SF Man wrote:
I'm confused. I just ran out of water. It's dry season, and it's a new house (to me) and the water tanks are 'empty' and the wells are barely re-filling them. I ran some calculations which, if I may, I would like to compare with your situation. Fundamentally, I ask: Is 3,094 US gallons a reasonable storage level? Demographics: - Family of five (two teens) - 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water every few days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface evaporation) - 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800 sprinklers - Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per zone - The well pump runs for a few minutes (varies from a minute to about ten minutes) and then shuts off due to lack of water ... waits a prescribed 30 minutes ... and then starts the cycle anew). I'm guessing roughly 100 gallons per cycle (but that's a very rough guess as there is no meter). - Northern California (zero rain from about March to about December, but, when it rains (January/February/March), it pours!) Calculations: - I have two equal-sized cylindrical steel water tanks - I have only one well (which is 500 feet deep) - There is no meter anywhere on the water flow (hence my dilemma). - I measured the two steel water tanks at 120" inches tall & 241.5 inches in circumference (the diameter is difficult to measure as the top is domed). - Geometry gives us, however, a diameter of 77 inches per tank. - Geometry gives us a volume of 556,936.45 cubic inches per tank. - This web site converts cubic inches to US wet gallons:http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm - Using that web site, the nominal capacity of each tank calculates to 2,411 gallons (i.e., 1 US gallon is 231 cubic inches) - That means, the total nominal volume for both tanks is twice that, i.e., 4,822 gallons. - However, the usable volume is aparently only 3,094 gallons (1,547 gallons per tank). - The fire hydrant seems to get 1,446 gallons (723 gallons per tank) - And the top air space of 282 gallons is apparently unused (141 gallons per tank) - Doublechecking the math: - 1,446 fire gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 282 air space gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons. Fundamentally, I ask: Q: Is 3,094 gallons a reasonable usable quantity for a family of four? PLEASE IGNORE IF NOT INTERESTED THE FURTHER CALCULATION DETAILS BELOW: - Based on float movement, the total 'range' of usable water is only 77 linear inches (which calculates to 357,367.55 cubic inches, or 1,547 gallons per tank, which is a total usable water of 3,094 gallons). - This number comes from 36in + 77in + 7in = 120 inches as explained below: a) The level indicator is a wooden block which goes down when the water level goes up, and which goes up when the water level goes down (i.e., reverse logic). b) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 36 inches to the top of the tank, which, (by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means that the bottom 36 inches of water is for the mandatory fire hydrant on the property (which calculates to 167,081 cubic inches per tank, or 723 gallons per tank, for a total fire-only storage of 1,446 gallons). c) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 7 inches to the bottom of the tank, which (again, by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means that the top 7 inches of the tank is never reached (which calculates to 32,488 cubic inches of air at the top, or 141 gallons per tank). - To put it together, 7 inches of air space + 77 inches of usable water + 36 inches for the fire hydrant = 120 inches of nominal tank height. - In gallons, that works out to 282 air space gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 1,446 fire gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons. I know it's a lot of calculations ... but ... fundamentally ... I ask if this setup seems weird to you? To me, it seems like not enough water (and the fact I ran out today shows that ... but maybe I've been irrigating too much and I 'should' fix the pool leaks also ... plus maybe this is a lull in the water supply since it doesn't rain for 9 or 10 months of the year out here in the hills. Do any of you have comparison figures? At the risk of venturing a radical proposal, why not practice some water conservancy? If you are running your well dry, you are impacting the water table, which no doubt is impacting any neighbors' usage as well. If the irrigation is not being used for consumables, switch to indigenous species that are used to your local precipitation. I know everybody likes green, but water is a precious commodity in this century. Leave some behind so your kids can fill their pool. Just a thought. |
#17
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
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#18
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 16:34:04 -0700 (PDT), gwandsh wrote:
If the irrigation is not being used for consumables, switch to indigenous species that are used to your local precipitation. The irrigation is just for the grass. There are no consumables (other than a few orange and olive trees scattered about). The only problem is that there is absolutely zero precipitation. Of course, the chaparall grows fine on the fog in the morning - but there won't be a single drop of rain for ten months ... so ... not much in a 'yard' would grow sans sprinklers. I did, for now, turn 'off' the irrigation. I will also drastically lower it. Maybe once or twice a week instead of ever other day. Also, I found a leaky hose (but I can't imagine it leaked a thousand gallons) which I removed. |
#19
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On 8/11/2011 7:34 PM, gwandsh wrote:
On Aug 11, 12:35 pm, SF wrote: I'm confused. I just ran out of water. It's dry season, and it's a new house (to me) and the water tanks are 'empty' and the wells are barely re-filling them. I ran some calculations which, if I may, I would like to compare with your situation. Fundamentally, I ask: Is 3,094 US gallons a reasonable storage level? Demographics: - Family of five (two teens) - 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water every few days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface evaporation) - 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800 sprinklers - Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per zone - The well pump runs for a few minutes (varies from a minute to about ten minutes) and then shuts off due to lack of water ... waits a prescribed 30 minutes ... and then starts the cycle anew). I'm guessing roughly 100 gallons per cycle (but that's a very rough guess as there is no meter). - Northern California (zero rain from about March to about December, but, when it rains (January/February/March), it pours!) Calculations: - I have two equal-sized cylindrical steel water tanks - I have only one well (which is 500 feet deep) - There is no meter anywhere on the water flow (hence my dilemma). - I measured the two steel water tanks at 120" inches tall& 241.5 inches in circumference (the diameter is difficult to measure as the top is domed). - Geometry gives us, however, a diameter of 77 inches per tank. - Geometry gives us a volume of 556,936.45 cubic inches per tank. - This web site converts cubic inches to US wet gallons:http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm - Using that web site, the nominal capacity of each tank calculates to 2,411 gallons (i.e., 1 US gallon is 231 cubic inches) - That means, the total nominal volume for both tanks is twice that, i.e., 4,822 gallons. - However, the usable volume is aparently only 3,094 gallons (1,547 gallons per tank). - The fire hydrant seems to get 1,446 gallons (723 gallons per tank) - And the top air space of 282 gallons is apparently unused (141 gallons per tank) - Doublechecking the math: - 1,446 fire gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 282 air space gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons. Fundamentally, I ask: Q: Is 3,094 gallons a reasonable usable quantity for a family of four? PLEASE IGNORE IF NOT INTERESTED THE FURTHER CALCULATION DETAILS BELOW: - Based on float movement, the total 'range' of usable water is only 77 linear inches (which calculates to 357,367.55 cubic inches, or 1,547 gallons per tank, which is a total usable water of 3,094 gallons). - This number comes from 36in + 77in + 7in = 120 inches as explained below: a) The level indicator is a wooden block which goes down when the water level goes up, and which goes up when the water level goes down (i.e., reverse logic). b) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 36 inches to the top of the tank, which, (by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means that the bottom 36 inches of water is for the mandatory fire hydrant on the property (which calculates to 167,081 cubic inches per tank, or 723 gallons per tank, for a total fire-only storage of 1,446 gallons). c) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 7 inches to the bottom of the tank, which (again, by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means that the top 7 inches of the tank is never reached (which calculates to 32,488 cubic inches of air at the top, or 141 gallons per tank). - To put it together, 7 inches of air space + 77 inches of usable water + 36 inches for the fire hydrant = 120 inches of nominal tank height. - In gallons, that works out to 282 air space gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 1,446 fire gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons. I know it's a lot of calculations ... but ... fundamentally ... I ask if this setup seems weird to you? To me, it seems like not enough water (and the fact I ran out today shows that ... but maybe I've been irrigating too much and I 'should' fix the pool leaks also ... plus maybe this is a lull in the water supply since it doesn't rain for 9 or 10 months of the year out here in the hills. Do any of you have comparison figures? At the risk of venturing a radical proposal, why not practice some water conservancy? If you are running your well dry, you are impacting the water table, which no doubt is impacting any neighbors' usage as well. If the irrigation is not being used for consumables, switch to indigenous species that are used to your local precipitation. I know everybody likes green, but water is a precious commodity in this century. Leave some behind so your kids can fill their pool. Just a thought. I'll second that. |
#20
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
6. I measured 5 gallons in one timed minute
Note: The pump shut off in about 3 minutes due to the water table lowering. So, I 'think', without a meter, that I have a flow of 5 gallons per minute but that the well can only supply that for three minutes for a grand total of 15 gallons for every half hour. Your well pump can pump 5 gallons per minute. Your well can supply half a gallon per minute or 720 gallons per day. That is not very much water. You probably can't increase it. You will probably have to reduce the amount you need. |
#21
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
There are no meters, either incoming from the well or outgoing to the house. Each member of your household probably uses 50 to 100 gallons a day. A faucet running uses 1.5 gallons a minute. You probably have barely enough water for your houshold with little extra for watering or pool use. |
#22
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
SF Man wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 16:13:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote: I doubt what is happening with water in his little world has any significant impact on the acquifer at 500 feet down. Someone once told me that the water we drink is a thousand years old ... But, I don't know that for a fact ... You can MAKE water by burning Hydrogen. Virtually all other water is used water. |
#23
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 15:43:36 -0700, SF Man
wrote Re May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons): So, I 'think', without a meter, that I have a flow of 5 gallons per minute but that the well can only supply that for three minutes for a grand total of 15 gallons for every half hour. Two questions arise: Q1: Is there a better DIY way to measure the water flow? No, you did a pretty good job there. I believe you now have a good estimate of what your well and pump can supply over a 24 hour period. Your in-house water use will be about 50 GPD/person. Slightly more if you have people taking extra long showers. You mentioned earlier that your pool use was about 100 GPD ? Now all you have to do is figure out your irrigation use. My guess is that irrigation will be a load that your well can't handle during the drought. -- Work is the curse of the drinking class. |
#24
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 11, 6:29*pm, SF Man wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: Get a meter. * They are all over ebay. *I got one for $40. I googled for "well water meter" and found this wikipedia article: -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_meter Apparently, in California, we must buy lead-free materials, so, the price for me to buy just the water meter and lead-free unions is no less than $113 + 9% tax + shipping and could be as high as $670 based on this web page:http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wameters.html I'm not sure what my 'size' is ... as there are white PVC and galvanized pipes in the line. It looks like the PVC is about 1.5 inches outside diameter while the galvanized pipe seems to be an eight of an inch larger (more than 1.5 but less than 1.75 inches). Do those pipe sizes make sense? Just off hand it looks to me like you are using too much water for a well. * Bummer. Fix your pool and quit irrigating. I think I'll do both plus add a pool cover to stave off evaporation. The meters are bronze. No lead. At the moment they are common on ebay because many areas are switching to metering that can be read electronically. So surplus regular meter stock is being sold off. A few bucks more to adapt the meter connections to glavianized or pvc. |
#25
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 11, 7:02*pm, Home Guy wrote:
SF Man wrote: - 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water * every few days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface * evaporation) - 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800 * sprinklers - Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per * zone Presumably the water you use to keep your pool full and for irrigation is feeding back into your well, so aside from evaporation I would think that maybe 1/2 of that water is (eventually) going back into the ground water feeding your well. You really don't know anything about aquifers do you? The water he sprays on the lawn and leaking out of the pool does not end up back in his well. |
#26
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 11, 11:24*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
SF Man wrote: On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 16:13:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote: I doubt what is happening with water in his little world has any significant impact on the acquifer at 500 feet down. Someone once told me that the water we drink is a thousand years old ... But, I don't know that for a fact ... You can MAKE water by burning Hydrogen. Virtually all other water is used water. This is part of the problem out there. All these people think they can have these huge expanses of lawn in basically a dessert. Eventually it gets like the oil situaton, they are using water from the aquifer at a rate faster than it is being replenished. He has the huge tanks for fire protection, irrigation, and filling the pool. Not related to the domestic use. He has ignored obvious water wastage like the leaky pool and the zillion head lawn sprinklers because he thought the water was practically free. He probably has neighbors doing the same things. The level of the aquifer in proximilty to his well can get pulled down to the point where he can not get enough water out of it. Around a well the aquifer will look like a bowl when the well is in use. How deep the bowl is depends on how much water is being drawn out and how fast water can move through the substrate around the well. If the lowering is prolonged then he needs a deeper well. Otherwise he can wait it out and the level will slowly recover. |
#27
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
SF Man wrote:
- 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800 sprinklers - Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per zone That Rain Bird model 1800 uses .1 gpm/ head http://store.rainbird.com/product/detail/A18796-M.aspx 200 sprinklers @ .1 gpm = 20gpm 20 gpm * 20 min. = 400 gallons per watering 15 waterings/month = 6000 gallons Not the best use of 6000 gallons/mo. of H2O during a drought. You're (were) watering enough for a whole household to use for 'normal' use. I hope you're not running 3 pool pumps all day long in the sun. What a huge waste of electricity. Since you obviously have the means, why not take this "problem" and turn it around into a eco-friendly solution? Nobody said you have to give up anything, I'm asking if you'll re-think the "big-picture". You have an abundance of sunlight, but a shortage of water. Turn the sunlight into water. ROI for solar panels is still about 20 years, but it's not always about the $$. |
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 12, 5:13*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Aug 11, 6:29*pm, SF Man wrote: On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: Get a meter. * They are all over ebay. *I got one for $40. SNIP Apparently, in California, we must buy lead-free materials, so, the price for me to buy just the water meter and lead-free unions is no less than $113 + 9% tax + shipping and could be as high as $670 based on this web page:http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wameters.html SNIP The meters are bronze. *No lead. *At the moment they are common on ebay because many areas are switching to metering that can be read electronically. *So surplus regular meter stock is being sold off. *A few bucks more to adapt the meter connections to glavianized or pvc. JG- Our California legislature, in their infinite wisdom, passed legislation that require 100% Lead Free alloys for devices used on potable water. Many mfrs & suppliers now have a CA compliant model & "the rest of the country".....there a few other states that have this requirement. The amount of lead in the "non-lead free" units in not really very high . If I were the OP I'd consider a used one on eday (as was sugested) cheers Bob |
#29
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 12, 11:26*am, DD_BobK wrote:
On Aug 12, 5:13*am, jamesgangnc wrote: On Aug 11, 6:29*pm, SF Man wrote: On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: Get a meter. * They are all over ebay. *I got one for $40. SNIP Apparently, in California, we must buy lead-free materials, so, the price for me to buy just the water meter and lead-free unions is no less than $113 + 9% tax + shipping and could be as high as $670 based on this web page:http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wameters.html SNIP The meters are bronze. *No lead. *At the moment they are common on ebay because many areas are switching to metering that can be read electronically. *So surplus regular meter stock is being sold off. *A few bucks more to adapt the meter connections to glavianized or pvc. JG- Our California legislature, *in their infinite wisdom, passed legislation that require 100% Lead Free alloys for devices used on potable water. Many mfrs & suppliers now have a CA compliant model & "the rest of the country".....there a few other states that have this requirement. The amount of lead in the "non-lead free" units in not really very high . *If I were the OP I'd consider a used one on eday (as was sugested) cheers Bob You can get new ones on ebay. Cheap. And bronze is copper and tin. I'm guessing the manufacturer is sticking a california sticker on some of them and doubling the price. I'd be thinking about getting several in the OP's sitiuation. You could put one on the irrigation, one on the house, one on the outdoor lines and pool. |
#30
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 12, 9:21*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Aug 12, 11:26*am, DD_BobK wrote: On Aug 12, 5:13*am, jamesgangnc wrote: On Aug 11, 6:29*pm, SF Man wrote: On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: Get a meter. * They are all over ebay. *I got one for $40. SNIP Apparently, in California, we must buy lead-free materials, so, the price for me to buy just the water meter and lead-free unions is no less than $113 + 9% tax + shipping and could be as high as $670 based on this web page:http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wameters.html SNIP The meters are bronze. *No lead. *At the moment they are common on ebay because many areas are switching to metering that can be read electronically. *So surplus regular meter stock is being sold off. *A few bucks more to adapt the meter connections to glavianized or pvc. JG- Our California legislature, *in their infinite wisdom, passed legislation that require 100% Lead Free alloys for devices used on potable water. Many mfrs & suppliers now have a CA compliant model & "the rest of the country".....there a few other states that have this requirement. The amount of lead in the "non-lead free" units in not really very high . *If I were the OP I'd consider a used one on eday (as was sugested) cheers Bob You can get new ones on ebay. *Cheap. *And bronze is copper and tin. I'm guessing the manufacturer is sticking a california sticker on some of them and doubling the price. I'd be thinking about getting several in the OP's sitiuation. *You could put one on the irrigation, one on the house, one on the outdoor lines and pool. JG- I am fully aware of the main alloying elements in brass & bronze. However there are minor alloying elements that are added or controlled to effect the alloy's final machining, forming or casting properties. http://www.suppliersonline.com/prope....asp#chemistry http://www.copperinfo.co.uk/alloys/b...s-of-brass.pdf The folks in Sacramento want all metal alloys that come in contact with potable water to be "lead free". The new limit is .25%. I was I worried at 3%, no. http://ab1953compliant.com/ab-1953-n...ation-faq.html Watts (a very large mfr of plumbing products) and many other mfrs have "two lines" of products; good old fashioned brass & CA (and other paranoid states) "lead free". So, no..... it's not just a relabeling issue. cheers Bob |
#31
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 11, 3:35*pm, SF Man wrote:
I'm confused. I just ran out of water. It's dry season, and it's a new house (to me) and the water tanks are 'empty' and the wells are barely re-filling them. I ran some calculations which, if I may, I would like to compare with your situation. Fundamentally, I ask: Is 3,094 US gallons a reasonable storage level? Demographics: - Family of five (two teens) - 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water every few days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface evaporation) - 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800 sprinklers - Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per zone - The well pump runs for a few minutes (varies from a minute to about ten minutes) and then shuts off due to lack of water ... waits a prescribed 30 minutes ... and then starts the cycle anew). I'm guessing roughly 100 gallons per cycle (but that's a very rough guess as there is no meter). - Northern California (zero rain from about March to about December, but, when it rains (January/February/March), it pours!) Calculations: - I have two equal-sized cylindrical steel water tanks - I have only one well (which is 500 feet deep) - There is no meter anywhere on the water flow (hence my dilemma). - I measured the two steel water tanks at 120" inches tall & 241.5 inches in circumference (the diameter is difficult to measure as the top is domed). - Geometry gives us, however, a diameter of 77 inches per tank. - Geometry gives us a volume of 556,936.45 cubic inches per tank. - This web site converts cubic inches to US wet gallons:http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm - Using that web site, the nominal capacity of each tank calculates to 2,411 gallons (i.e., 1 US gallon is 231 cubic inches) - That means, the total nominal volume for both tanks is twice that, i.e., 4,822 gallons. - However, the usable volume is aparently only 3,094 gallons (1,547 gallons per tank). - The fire hydrant seems to get 1,446 gallons (723 gallons per tank) - And the top air space of 282 gallons is apparently unused (141 gallons per tank) - Doublechecking the math: - 1,446 fire gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 282 air space gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons. Fundamentally, I ask: Q: Is 3,094 gallons a reasonable usable quantity for a family of four? PLEASE IGNORE IF NOT INTERESTED THE FURTHER CALCULATION DETAILS BELOW: - Based on float movement, the total 'range' of usable water is only 77 linear inches (which calculates to 357,367.55 cubic inches, or 1,547 gallons per tank, which is a total usable water of 3,094 gallons). - This number comes from 36in + 77in + 7in = 120 inches as explained below: a) The level indicator is a wooden block which goes down when the water level goes up, and which goes up when the water level goes down (i.e., reverse logic). b) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 36 inches to the top of the tank, which, (by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means that the bottom 36 inches of water is for the mandatory fire hydrant on the property (which calculates to 167,081 cubic inches per tank, or 723 gallons per tank, for a total fire-only storage of 1,446 gallons). c) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 7 inches to the bottom of the tank, which (again, by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means that the top 7 inches of the tank is never reached (which calculates to 32,488 cubic inches of air at the top, or 141 gallons per tank). - To put it together, 7 inches of air space + 77 inches of usable water + 36 inches for the fire hydrant = 120 inches of nominal tank height. - In gallons, that works out to 282 air space gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 1,446 fire gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons. I know it's a lot of calculations ... but ... fundamentally ... I ask if this setup seems weird to you? To me, it seems like not enough water (and the fact I ran out today shows that ... but maybe I've been irrigating too much and I 'should' fix the pool leaks also ... plus maybe this is a lull in the water supply since it doesn't rain for 9 or 10 months of the year out here in the hills. Do any of you have comparison figures? Facts and figures are good for evaluating your capacities, but usage is the most important factor. Me and my wife use approx. 4000 gallons a month. With 3 teenagers, your wife and yourself, I would guess that you would use close to 8000+ per month. Then on top of that, figure your pool, irrigation and other little things such as washing cars and etc. You may be able to configure your pumping times to give you more Gallons per day. You should also do flow test on your well to see what the GPM's are so that you get the most out of it. Hank |
#32
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 12, 9:59*pm, DD_BobK wrote:
On Aug 12, 9:21*am, jamesgangnc wrote: On Aug 12, 11:26*am, DD_BobK wrote: On Aug 12, 5:13*am, jamesgangnc wrote: On Aug 11, 6:29*pm, SF Man wrote: On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: Get a meter. * They are all over ebay. *I got one for $40. SNIP Apparently, in California, we must buy lead-free materials, so, the price for me to buy just the water meter and lead-free unions is no less than $113 + 9% tax + shipping and could be as high as $670 based on this web page:http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wameters.html SNIP The meters are bronze. *No lead. *At the moment they are common on ebay because many areas are switching to metering that can be read electronically. *So surplus regular meter stock is being sold off.. *A few bucks more to adapt the meter connections to glavianized or pvc.. JG- Our California legislature, *in their infinite wisdom, passed legislation that require 100% Lead Free alloys for devices used on potable water. Many mfrs & suppliers now have a CA compliant model & "the rest of the country".....there a few other states that have this requirement. The amount of lead in the "non-lead free" units in not really very high . *If I were the OP I'd consider a used one on eday (as was sugested) cheers Bob You can get new ones on ebay. *Cheap. *And bronze is copper and tin.. I'm guessing the manufacturer is sticking a california sticker on some of them and doubling the price. I'd be thinking about getting several in the OP's sitiuation. *You could put one on the irrigation, one on the house, one on the outdoor lines and pool. JG- I am fully aware of the main alloying elements in brass & bronze. However there are minor alloying elements that are added or controlled to effect the alloy's final machining, forming or casting properties. http://www.suppliersonline.com/prope...117-section-6-... The folks in Sacramento want all metal alloys that come in contact with potable water to be "lead free". The new limit is .25%. * I was I worried at 3%, no. http://ab1953compliant.com/ab-1953-n...ation-faq.html Watts (a very large mfr of plumbing products) and many other mfrs have "two lines" of products; good old fashioned brass & CA (and other paranoid states) "lead free". So, no..... *it's not just a relabeling issue. cheers Bob- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I wouldn't bet on it. How much more expensive is it to have two manufacturing lines than to make one that is compliant and label some of them one way and the rest another? Remember the old 5 1/4" floppy disks? There was two flavors, regular and high density. But manufacturers simply had one line and labeled some high density and others regular. |
#33
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 13, 8:29*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Aug 12, 9:59*pm, DD_BobK wrote: On Aug 12, 9:21*am, jamesgangnc wrote: On Aug 12, 11:26*am, DD_BobK wrote: On Aug 12, 5:13*am, jamesgangnc wrote: On Aug 11, 6:29*pm, SF Man wrote: On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: Get a meter. * They are all over ebay. *I got one for $40.. SNIP Apparently, in California, we must buy lead-free materials, so, the price for me to buy just the water meter and lead-free unions is no less than $113 + 9% tax + shipping and could be as high as $670 based on this web page:http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wameters.html SNIP The meters are bronze. *No lead. *At the moment they are common on ebay because many areas are switching to metering that can be read electronically. *So surplus regular meter stock is being sold off. *A few bucks more to adapt the meter connections to glavianized or pvc. JG- Our California legislature, *in their infinite wisdom, passed legislation that require 100% Lead Free alloys for devices used on potable water. Many mfrs & suppliers now have a CA compliant model & "the rest of the country".....there a few other states that have this requirement. The amount of lead in the "non-lead free" units in not really very high . *If I were the OP I'd consider a used one on eday (as was sugested) cheers Bob You can get new ones on ebay. *Cheap. *And bronze is copper and tin. I'm guessing the manufacturer is sticking a california sticker on some of them and doubling the price. I'd be thinking about getting several in the OP's sitiuation. *You could put one on the irrigation, one on the house, one on the outdoor lines and pool. JG- I am fully aware of the main alloying elements in brass & bronze. However there are minor alloying elements that are added or controlled to effect the alloy's final machining, forming or casting properties. http://www.suppliersonline.com/prope...#chemistryhttp....... The folks in Sacramento want all metal alloys that come in contact with potable water to be "lead free". The new limit is .25%. * I was I worried at 3%, no. http://ab1953compliant.com/ab-1953-n...ation-faq.html Watts (a very large mfr of plumbing products) and many other mfrs have "two lines" of products; good old fashioned brass & CA (and other paranoid states) "lead free". So, no..... *it's not just a relabeling issue. cheers Bob- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I wouldn't bet on it. *How much more expensive is it to have two manufacturing lines than to make one that is compliant and label some of them one way and the rest another? Remember the old 5 1/4" floppy disks? *There was two flavors, regular and high density. *But manufacturers simply had one line and labeled some high density and others regular.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Good point. It all depends on how expensive it is to make the compliant ones, how the factory is set up, etc. Could be cost effective to just make them all the same. In semiconductors you can offer chips with different performance characteristics, ie faster, wider operating temp range, which all come from the same wafer. The only difference is they are sorted into different bins during test. And in some cases, it's just a labeling issue, as they all meet the higher perf spec. |
#34
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Aug 12, 9:06*am, G. Morgan wrote:
SF Man wrote: - 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800 sprinklers - Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per zone That Rain Bird model 1800 uses .1 gpm/ headhttp://store.rainbird.com/product/detail/A18796-M.aspx 200 sprinklers @ .1 gpm = 20gpm 20 gpm * 20 min. = 400 gallons per watering 15 waterings/month = 6000 gallons Not the best use of 6000 gallons/mo. of H2O during a drought. You're (were) watering enough for a whole household to use for 'normal' use. I hope you're not running 3 pool pumps all day long in the sun. *What a huge waste of electricity. Since you obviously have the means, why not take this "problem" and turn it around into a eco-friendly solution? *Nobody said you have to give up anything, I'm asking if you'll re-think the "big-picture". You have an abundance of sunlight, but a shortage of water. *Turn the sunlight into water. *ROI for solar panels is still about 20 years, but it's not always about the $$. How does one turn sunlight into water with solar panels? Or anything else in a residential desert environment for that matter? |
#35
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
SF Man wrote:
I'm confused. I just ran out of water. It's dry season, and it's a new house (to me) and the water tanks are 'empty' and the wells are barely re-filling them. I ran some calculations which, if I may, I would like to compare with your situation. Fundamentally, I ask: Is 3,094 US gallons a reasonable storage level? Demographics: - Family of five (two teens) - 35,000 gallon open-air pool (takes about 500 gallons of water every few days to refill due to plumbing leaks and surface evaporation) - 20 irrigation zones, each of which has about 10 rain-man 1800 sprinklers - Watering schedule was set to every other day, 20 minutes per zone - The well pump runs for a few minutes (varies from a minute to about ten minutes) and then shuts off due to lack of water ... waits a prescribed 30 minutes ... and then starts the cycle anew). I'm guessing roughly 100 gallons per cycle (but that's a very rough guess as there is no meter). - Northern California (zero rain from about March to about December, but, when it rains (January/February/March), it pours!) Calculations: - I have two equal-sized cylindrical steel water tanks - I have only one well (which is 500 feet deep) - There is no meter anywhere on the water flow (hence my dilemma). - I measured the two steel water tanks at 120" inches tall & 241.5 inches in circumference (the diameter is difficult to measure as the top is domed). - Geometry gives us, however, a diameter of 77 inches per tank. - Geometry gives us a volume of 556,936.45 cubic inches per tank. - This web site converts cubic inches to US wet gallons: http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm - Using that web site, the nominal capacity of each tank calculates to 2,411 gallons (i.e., 1 US gallon is 231 cubic inches) - That means, the total nominal volume for both tanks is twice that, i.e., 4,822 gallons. - However, the usable volume is aparently only 3,094 gallons (1,547 gallons per tank). - The fire hydrant seems to get 1,446 gallons (723 gallons per tank) - And the top air space of 282 gallons is apparently unused (141 gallons per tank) - Doublechecking the math: - 1,446 fire gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 282 air space gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons. Fundamentally, I ask: Q: Is 3,094 gallons a reasonable usable quantity for a family of four? PLEASE IGNORE IF NOT INTERESTED THE FURTHER CALCULATION DETAILS BELOW: - Based on float movement, the total 'range' of usable water is only 77 linear inches (which calculates to 357,367.55 cubic inches, or 1,547 gallons per tank, which is a total usable water of 3,094 gallons). - This number comes from 36in + 77in + 7in = 120 inches as explained below: a) The level indicator is a wooden block which goes down when the water level goes up, and which goes up when the water level goes down (i.e., reverse logic). b) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 36 inches to the top of the tank, which, (by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means that the bottom 36 inches of water is for the mandatory fire hydrant on the property (which calculates to 167,081 cubic inches per tank, or 723 gallons per tank, for a total fire-only storage of 1,446 gallons). c) The level indicator block never makes it closer than 7 inches to the bottom of the tank, which (again, by the reverse logic of the float mechanism) means that the top 7 inches of the tank is never reached (which calculates to 32,488 cubic inches of air at the top, or 141 gallons per tank). - To put it together, 7 inches of air space + 77 inches of usable water + 36 inches for the fire hydrant = 120 inches of nominal tank height. - In gallons, that works out to 282 air space gallons + 3,094 house gallons + 1,446 fire gallons = 4,822 nominal gallons. I know it's a lot of calculations ... but ... fundamentally ... I ask if this setup seems weird to you? To me, it seems like not enough water (and the fact I ran out today shows that ... but maybe I've been irrigating too much and I 'should' fix the pool leaks also ... plus maybe this is a lull in the water supply since it doesn't rain for 9 or 10 months of the year out here in the hills. Do any of you have comparison figures? My well water comes from the city wells. Over a 150 of them, 8 million gals in ground storage, a couple of water towers and cost 42 dollars a month but that includes sewage and trash. The city says the state says the water supplied at the meter meets the current drinking EPA drinking water standards. Chlorine and fluorine are added other than that no treatment and it's fairly hard well water. |
#36
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 08:06:07 -0500, G. Morgan wrote:
That Rain Bird model 1800 uses .1 gpm/ head http://store.rainbird.com/product/detail/A18796-M.aspx 200 sprinklers @ .1 gpm = 20gpm 20 gpm * 20 min. = 400 gallons per watering 15 waterings/month = 6000 gallons Thanks for that calculation! I have the sprinklers off, at the moment, and, I think I'll drastically change the cycle in the ten months when it doesn't rain. I hope you're not running 3 pool pumps all day long in the sun. What a huge waste of electricity. I don't have solar yet (although most of the neighbors do). We have more sun than we know what to do with. It's sunny from 6am to 9pm at the height of the summer. Rarely is it a cloudy day. The fog comes in at night and dissipates by 10 am when it's around. Only two of the pool pumps are constantly running during the day. It's useless to run them at night because of the solar heating panels (they'd be solar cooling panels at night). So, they have to run during the day. One pump is for the fancy cleaning system; and the other pump is for the filter. Both must run at the same time (2.2 horsepower each). They run about 15 hours a day. I really have no choice in that matter, unfortunately, except to put up about 50K dollars and go solar with about 15 KW of panels. You have an abundance of sunlight, but a shortage of water. Exactly. More sun than I know what do to with; and not enough water to do much with! Turn the sunlight into water. Huh? How? ROI for solar panels is still about 20 years I calculated the ROI was about 7 years since we're paying about 50 cents per KW hour for the last two weeks (or so) of the month (it starts at 12 cents per KW hour for the first week or so). |
#37
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 05:16:35 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote:
The water he sprays on the lawn and leaking out of the pool does not end up back in his well. I asked about and got a whole bunch of answers. Basically, nobody really knows where their water comes from out here. Everybody seems to have a 400 to 800 foot deep well (it's hill country so just the elevation changes are that much easily). Some have multiple wells on their property. Most have larger holding tanks than I have (they have three and four, while I only have two). There's some kind of zoning thing where you're better off with multiple small tanks than one big one. Anyway, I don't know where the water comes from - but - I'm leaning toward the theory that it's a thousand years old water myself. |
#38
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 05:30:18 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote:
Otherwise he can wait it out and the level will slowly recover. That's what I'm doing (I have no other choice). In the last two days, the tank level changed by 20 inches. That's 20x40 gallons per inch (approx.) which is 800 gallons. So, it looks like the well, in the middle of the dry season (roughly March or April to December), can only supply about 400 gallons per day. So, my 'ration' will have to be 400 gallons per day ... like it or not. |
#39
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
- Show quoted text - I wouldn't bet on it. *How much more expensive is it to have two manufacturing lines than to make one that is compliant and label some of them one way and the rest another? Remember the old 5 1/4" floppy disks? *There was two flavors, regular and high density. *But manufacturers simply had one line and labeled some high density and others regular. I misunderstood your very first reply.... I thought you meant they were relabeling "leaded brass" as lead-free. It would all depend on the cost of batch control vs all lead free. cheers Bob |
#40
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May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:08:51 -0500, Caesar Romano wrote:
My guess is that irrigation will be a load that your well can't handle during the drought. G.Morgan kindly calculated that for us: 200 sprinklers @ .1 gpm = 20gpm 20 gpm * 20 min. = 400 gallons per watering 15 waterings/month = 6000 gallons 6,000 gallons/30 days = 200 gallons/day. Based on the fact the tank level rose 20 inches in the past two days, I'm estimating that the well can supply, in the middle of the dry season, 400 gallons per day (at 40 gallons per inch of tank). So, I agree with you. In the dry season, I can't "afford" to irrigate as much (because the house uses whatever it uses, and the pool uses about 500 gallons every few days). So, here's my short-term plan: - Shut off the irrigation (the plants will need to fend for themselves) - Fix the pool leaks - Irrigate manually only when the tanks are full I'm curious how much a pool evaporates. Those of you with a pool, assuming no leaks, how much does yours evaporate? (Note: The pool surface area is approximately 900 square feet and it's in the sun all day, from 6am to about 8pm or so right about now). |
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