In ,
zxcvbob typed:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi all

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too
expensive method of demonstrating that a receptacle is
GFCI protected... long story short. Am selling house,
got offer. Home inspector came through and wrote up two
receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually
having the blue stickers on them that said "GFCI
Protected - No Equipment Ground" (duh) before you ask,
it would be fairly difficult to pull grounds to these
boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. Also there are a
approximately 5 or 6 other receps throughout the house
that I haven't grounded yet that are in a similar
situation, and I don't want to open that can of worms
whereby accepting that the lack of a ground at these
receps is a fault that needs to be corrected leads to
the request to ground *everything.* (house was built in
1948, before you ask. I did update a good bit of the
wiring already, just not all of it. Everything is to
the best of my knowledge code compliant at this time,
and in fact I got a permit for the rewiring I did on the
2nd floor a while back.) SO.

I scanned the page of the NEC (2008 edition, which is
what my AHJ is using these days) addressing the
replacement of ungrounded receptacles; called the head
inspector to confirm that there were no local addendums
to the code (he said no) and so I have a case, right? I
just need to demonstrate that the receps are in fact
downstream of a GFCI. Here's where I had a moment of dumbass. I figured
I
would just stop by the Local Hardware Sellin' Emporium
and get one of those plug in cube testers - kind of like
the one I already have but this time the fancy one with
the little button on the top to test a GFCI. That
should do it, right? Well I get it home (not the house
for sale, my current temporary residence) and plug it in
to a kitchen recep, push the button, GFCI pops. Then I
read the instructions - says it may not work on
ungrounded receps. Of course it wouldn't - it probably
just has a resistor that the button inserts between hot
and ground so that it allows a current slightly higher
than 5 mA @ 120V. duh! So the question is - is there a tester
available that I
could use to demonstrate the principle to someone who's
not really clueful about such things that the GFCI
really works? I could use a test lead to connect the
ground pin to a faucet or something, but I have a
feeling that that wouldn't really help the case that I
know what I'm talking about and did a proper job in
front of people who aren't really clueful about
electricity and have never heard of the NEC... any ideas?

thanks

nate



Plug your tester into the allegedly-protected outlet. It
will show that it's otherwise properly wired but with a
missing ground. Press the "TEST" button on the GFCI that
protects it, it will trip, and the light on the
downstream outlet tester will go out.
-Bob

Right.

On Jun 9, 10:24*am, "Twayne" wrote:
,
zxcvbob typed:





Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi all

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too
expensive method of demonstrating that a receptacle is
*GFCI protected... *long story short. Am selling house,
got offer. *Home inspector came through and wrote up two
receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually
having the blue stickers on them that said "GFCI
Protected - No Equipment Ground" (duh) before you ask,
it would be fairly difficult to pull grounds to these
boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. *Also there are a
approximately 5 or 6 other receps throughout the house
that I haven't grounded yet that are in a similar
situation, and I don't want to open that can of worms
whereby accepting that the lack of a ground at these
receps is a fault that needs to be corrected leads to
the request to ground *everything.* *(house was built in
1948, before you ask. *I did update a good bit of the
wiring already, just not all of it. *Everything is to
the best of my knowledge code compliant at this time,
and in fact I got a permit for the rewiring I did on the
2nd floor a while back.) * * SO.

I scanned the page of the NEC (2008 edition, which is
what my AHJ is using these days) addressing the
replacement of ungrounded receptacles; called the head
inspector to confirm that there were no local addendums
to the code (he said no) and so I have a case, right? *I
just need to demonstrate that the receps are in fact
downstream of a GFCI. *Here's where I had a moment of dumbass. *I figured
I
would just stop by the Local Hardware Sellin' Emporium
and get one of those plug in cube testers - kind of like
the one I already have but this time the fancy one with
the little button on the top to test a GFCI. *That
should do it, right? *Well I get it home (not the house
for sale, my current temporary residence) and plug it in
to a kitchen recep, push the button, GFCI pops. *Then I
read the instructions - says it may not work on
ungrounded receps. *Of course it wouldn't - it probably
just has a resistor that the button inserts between hot
and ground so that it allows a current slightly higher
than 5 mA @ 120V. *duh! * So the question is - is there a tester
available that I
could use to demonstrate the principle to someone who's
not really clueful about such things that the GFCI
really works? *I could use a test lead to connect the
ground pin to a faucet or something, but I have a
feeling that that wouldn't really help the case that I
know what I'm talking about and did a proper job in
front of people who aren't really clueful about
electricity and have never heard of the NEC... *any ideas?

thanks

nate

Plug your tester into the allegedly-protected outlet. *It
will show that it's otherwise properly wired but with a
missing ground. *Press the "TEST" button on the GFCI that
protects it, it will trip, and the light on the
downstream outlet tester will go out.
-Bob

Right.

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO TEST IT - GET A RAT, LARGE MOUSE OR OTHER VERMIN
FROM YOUR NATURAL SUURROUNDINGS...TAKE AN EXTENSION CORD AND CUT THE
OUTLET PART OFF, SPLICE & ATTACH THE ENDS OF THE TWO WIRES TO TWO
SEPERATE NAILS OR SCREWS ON A STICK 1/2 - 3/4 OF AN INCH APART AND
PLUG IT IN......THEN...POKE THE RAT WITH THE STICK...MAKE SURE BOTH
SCREW OR NSIL HEADS MAKE FULL CONTACT WITH THE VERMINS BODY AND SEE IF
THE GFCI TRIPS AND THE RAT SURVIVES.

IF YOUR GFCII IS GOOD..YOU SHOULD BE RESTTING IT AND RELRASING THE
TEST SUBJECT DAZED BUT BACK TO THE WILDERNESS...
BOOWAHAHAHAHA......MAKES FOR A COOL SCHOOL SCIENCE PROJECT TO.
PATECUM
TGITM

On 06/09/2011 10:58 AM, The Ghost in The Machine wrote:
On Jun 9, 10:24 am, wrote:
,
typed:





Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi all

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too
expensive method of demonstrating that a receptacle is
GFCI protected... long story short. Am selling house,
got offer. Home inspector came through and wrote up two
receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually
having the blue stickers on them that said "GFCI
Protected - No Equipment Ground" (duh) before you ask,
it would be fairly difficult to pull grounds to these
boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. Also there are a
approximately 5 or 6 other receps throughout the house
that I haven't grounded yet that are in a similar
situation, and I don't want to open that can of worms
whereby accepting that the lack of a ground at these
receps is a fault that needs to be corrected leads to
the request to ground *everything.* (house was built in
1948, before you ask. I did update a good bit of the
wiring already, just not all of it. Everything is to
the best of my knowledge code compliant at this time,
and in fact I got a permit for the rewiring I did on the
2nd floor a while back.) SO.

I scanned the page of the NEC (2008 edition, which is
what my AHJ is using these days) addressing the
replacement of ungrounded receptacles; called the head
inspector to confirm that there were no local addendums
to the code (he said no) and so I have a case, right? I
just need to demonstrate that the receps are in fact
downstream of a GFCI. Here's where I had a moment of dumbass. I figured
I
would just stop by the Local Hardware Sellin' Emporium
and get one of those plug in cube testers - kind of like
the one I already have but this time the fancy one with
the little button on the top to test a GFCI. That
should do it, right? Well I get it home (not the house
for sale, my current temporary residence) and plug it in
to a kitchen recep, push the button, GFCI pops. Then I
read the instructions - says it may not work on
ungrounded receps. Of course it wouldn't - it probably
just has a resistor that the button inserts between hot
and ground so that it allows a current slightly higher
than 5 mA @ 120V. duh! So the question is - is there a tester
available that I
could use to demonstrate the principle to someone who's
not really clueful about such things that the GFCI
really works? I could use a test lead to connect the
ground pin to a faucet or something, but I have a
feeling that that wouldn't really help the case that I
know what I'm talking about and did a proper job in
front of people who aren't really clueful about
electricity and have never heard of the NEC... any ideas?

thanks

nate

Plug your tester into the allegedly-protected outlet. It
will show that it's otherwise properly wired but with a
missing ground. Press the "TEST" button on the GFCI that
protects it, it will trip, and the light on the
downstream outlet tester will go out.
-Bob

Right.

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO TEST IT - GET A RAT, LARGE MOUSE OR OTHER VERMIN
FROM YOUR NATURAL SUURROUNDINGS...TAKE AN EXTENSION CORD AND CUT THE
OUTLET PART OFF, SPLICE& ATTACH THE ENDS OF THE TWO WIRES TO TWO
SEPERATE NAILS OR SCREWS ON A STICK 1/2 - 3/4 OF AN INCH APART AND
PLUG IT IN......THEN...POKE THE RAT WITH THE STICK...MAKE SURE BOTH
SCREW OR NSIL HEADS MAKE FULL CONTACT WITH THE VERMINS BODY AND SEE IF
THE GFCI TRIPS AND THE RAT SURVIVES.

IF YOUR GFCII IS GOOD..YOU SHOULD BE RESTTING IT AND RELRASING THE
TEST SUBJECT DAZED BUT BACK TO THE WILDERNESS...
BOOWAHAHAHAHA......MAKES FOR A COOL SCHOOL SCIENCE PROJECT TO.
PATECUM
TGITM

I'd be tempted to do that to the inspector, but I dunno if that'd be
politically advisable

Apparently the buyers have agreed to sign the contingency removal with
the changes I put in, so the only thing I'm not going to be doing myself
is a few small plumbing items, and hopefully this whole sordid GFCI
issue will be behind us. According to my realtor, who heard from their
realtor, who heard from the buyers (why can't I just talk directly to
these people?) the inspector didn't notice the GFCI in the location that
I described; in his defense, it is close to a window w/ floor length
curtains. But still, the blue stickers should have made him look for it
IMHO (unless he assumed that it was on the same ckt. as the GFCI on the
counter for the dedicated 20A kitchen circuit... only got one, sadly.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:

Apparently the buyers have agreed to sign the contingency removal with
the changes I put in, so the only thing I'm not going to be doing
myself is a few small plumbing items, and hopefully this whole sordid
GFCI issue will be behind us. According to my realtor, who heard
from their realtor, who heard from the buyers (why can't I just talk
directly to these people?) the inspector didn't notice the GFCI in
the location that I described; in his defense, it is close to a
window w/ floor length curtains. But still, the blue stickers should
have made him look for it IMHO (unless he assumed that it was on the
same ckt. as the GFCI on the counter for the dedicated 20A kitchen
circuit... only got one, sadly.)
nate

That's excellent that it all worked out. Thanks for posting a follow-up.