"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Hi all

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too expensive method of
demonstrating that a receptacle is GFCI protected... long story short. Am
selling house, got offer. Home inspector came through and wrote up two
receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually having the blue
stickers on them that said "GFCI Protected - No Equipment Ground" (duh)
before you ask, it would be fairly difficult to pull grounds to these
boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. Also there are a approximately 5 or
6 other receps throughout the house that I haven't grounded yet that are
in a similar situation, and I don't want to open that can of worms whereby
accepting that the lack of a ground at these receps is a fault that needs
to be corrected leads to the request to ground *everything.* (house was
built in 1948, before you ask. I did update a good bit of the wiring
already, just not all of it. Everything is to the best of my knowledge
code compliant at this time, and in fact I got a permit for the rewiring I
did on the 2nd floor a while back.)

SO.

I scanned the page of the NEC (2008 edition, which is what my AHJ is using
these days) addressing the replacement of ungrounded receptacles; called
the head inspector to confirm that there were no local addendums to the
code (he said no) and so I have a case, right? I just need to demonstrate
that the receps are in fact downstream of a GFCI.

Here's where I had a moment of dumbass. I figured I would just stop by
the Local Hardware Sellin' Emporium and get one of those plug in cube
testers - kind of like the one I already have but this time the fancy one
with the little button on the top to test a GFCI. That should do it,
right? Well I get it home (not the house for sale, my current temporary
residence) and plug it in to a kitchen recep, push the button, GFCI pops.
Then I read the instructions - says it may not work on ungrounded receps.
Of course it wouldn't - it probably just has a resistor that the button
inserts between hot and ground so that it allows a current slightly higher
than 5 mA @ 120V. duh!

So the question is - is there a tester available that I could use to
demonstrate the principle to someone who's not really clueful about such
things that the GFCI really works? I could use a test lead to connect the
ground pin to a faucet or something, but I have a feeling that that
wouldn't really help the case that I know what I'm talking about and did a
proper job in front of people who aren't really clueful about electricity
and have never heard of the NEC...

any ideas?


The GFCI works by compairing the current on the hot wire to the neutral
wire. If they are not ballanced, it assumes that current is going to ground
somewhere and opens the circuit.

The only way to test it is to create an unbalanced condition. Many testers
put a resistor from the hot wire to ground. To test the ones without a
ground such as you have, you will need to run a wire from the ground pin of
the socket or tester to a grounded item. Such as to a grounded receptical
or other grounded device.

To demonstrate the recepticals are protected, put a lamp in them and go to
the testor and plug it into the GFCI that protects them. When you trip that
socket, it should cut off the current to the other ones if the GFCI socket
is grounded.

On 06/07/2011 07:07 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Nate wrote in message
...
Hi all

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too expensive method of
demonstrating that a receptacle is GFCI protected... long story short. Am
selling house, got offer. Home inspector came through and wrote up two
receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually having the blue
stickers on them that said "GFCI Protected - No Equipment Ground" (duh)
before you ask, it would be fairly difficult to pull grounds to these
boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. Also there are a approximately 5 or
6 other receps throughout the house that I haven't grounded yet that are
in a similar situation, and I don't want to open that can of worms whereby
accepting that the lack of a ground at these receps is a fault that needs
to be corrected leads to the request to ground *everything.* (house was
built in 1948, before you ask. I did update a good bit of the wiring
already, just not all of it. Everything is to the best of my knowledge
code compliant at this time, and in fact I got a permit for the rewiring I
did on the 2nd floor a while back.)

SO.

I scanned the page of the NEC (2008 edition, which is what my AHJ is using
these days) addressing the replacement of ungrounded receptacles; called
the head inspector to confirm that there were no local addendums to the
code (he said no) and so I have a case, right? I just need to demonstrate
that the receps are in fact downstream of a GFCI.

Here's where I had a moment of dumbass. I figured I would just stop by
the Local Hardware Sellin' Emporium and get one of those plug in cube
testers - kind of like the one I already have but this time the fancy one
with the little button on the top to test a GFCI. That should do it,
right? Well I get it home (not the house for sale, my current temporary
residence) and plug it in to a kitchen recep, push the button, GFCI pops.
Then I read the instructions - says it may not work on ungrounded receps.
Of course it wouldn't - it probably just has a resistor that the button
inserts between hot and ground so that it allows a current slightly higher
than 5 mA @ 120V. duh!

So the question is - is there a tester available that I could use to
demonstrate the principle to someone who's not really clueful about such
things that the GFCI really works? I could use a test lead to connect the
ground pin to a faucet or something, but I have a feeling that that
wouldn't really help the case that I know what I'm talking about and did a
proper job in front of people who aren't really clueful about electricity
and have never heard of the NEC...

any ideas?


The GFCI works by compairing the current on the hot wire to the neutral
wire. If they are not ballanced, it assumes that current is going to ground
somewhere and opens the circuit.

The only way to test it is to create an unbalanced condition. Many testers
put a resistor from the hot wire to ground. To test the ones without a
ground such as you have, you will need to run a wire from the ground pin of
the socket or tester to a grounded item. Such as to a grounded receptical
or other grounded device.

To demonstrate the recepticals are protected, put a lamp in them and go to
the testor and plug it into the GFCI that protects them. When you trip that
socket, it should cut off the current to the other ones if the GFCI socket
is grounded.


Right, I just don't know if that constitutes "proof" to someone who
really doesn't know what's going on. I don't have the couple grand to
pay an electrician to "fix" all this, nor do I have the free time
between now and closing to do it myself.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 06/07/2011 08:07 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 06/07/2011 07:07 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Nate wrote in message
...
Hi all

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too expensive method of
demonstrating that a receptacle is GFCI protected... long story
short. Am
selling house, got offer. Home inspector came through and wrote up two
receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually having the blue
stickers on them that said "GFCI Protected - No Equipment Ground" (duh)
before you ask, it would be fairly difficult to pull grounds to these
boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. Also there are a approximately
5 or
6 other receps throughout the house that I haven't grounded yet that are
in a similar situation, and I don't want to open that can of worms
whereby
accepting that the lack of a ground at these receps is a fault that
needs
to be corrected leads to the request to ground *everything.* (house was
built in 1948, before you ask. I did update a good bit of the wiring
already, just not all of it. Everything is to the best of my knowledge
code compliant at this time, and in fact I got a permit for the
rewiring I
did on the 2nd floor a while back.)

SO.

I scanned the page of the NEC (2008 edition, which is what my AHJ is
using
these days) addressing the replacement of ungrounded receptacles; called
the head inspector to confirm that there were no local addendums to the
code (he said no) and so I have a case, right? I just need to
demonstrate
that the receps are in fact downstream of a GFCI.

Here's where I had a moment of dumbass. I figured I would just stop by
the Local Hardware Sellin' Emporium and get one of those plug in cube
testers - kind of like the one I already have but this time the fancy
one
with the little button on the top to test a GFCI. That should do it,
right? Well I get it home (not the house for sale, my current temporary
residence) and plug it in to a kitchen recep, push the button, GFCI
pops.
Then I read the instructions - says it may not work on ungrounded
receps.
Of course it wouldn't - it probably just has a resistor that the button
inserts between hot and ground so that it allows a current slightly
higher
than 5 mA @ 120V. duh!

So the question is - is there a tester available that I could use to
demonstrate the principle to someone who's not really clueful about such
things that the GFCI really works? I could use a test lead to connect
the
ground pin to a faucet or something, but I have a feeling that that
wouldn't really help the case that I know what I'm talking about and
did a
proper job in front of people who aren't really clueful about
electricity
and have never heard of the NEC...

any ideas?


The GFCI works by compairing the current on the hot wire to the neutral
wire. If they are not ballanced, it assumes that current is going to
ground
somewhere and opens the circuit.

The only way to test it is to create an unbalanced condition. Many
testers
put a resistor from the hot wire to ground. To test the ones without a
ground such as you have, you will need to run a wire from the ground
pin of
the socket or tester to a grounded item. Such as to a grounded receptical
or other grounded device.

To demonstrate the recepticals are protected, put a lamp in them and
go to
the testor and plug it into the GFCI that protects them. When you trip
that
socket, it should cut off the current to the other ones if the GFCI
socket
is grounded.


Right, I just don't know if that constitutes "proof" to someone who
really doesn't know what's going on. I don't have the couple grand to
pay an electrician to "fix" all this, nor do I have the free time
between now and closing to do it myself.

nate


just thought, how much current do those neon testers draw? could
demonstrate that to faucet etc. if it'll make it trip. don't have one
handy otherwise I would have tried it already.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

In ,
Nate Nagel typed:
On 06/07/2011 07:07 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Nate wrote in message
...
Hi all

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too
expensive method of demonstrating that a receptacle is
GFCI protected... long story short. Am selling house,
got offer. Home inspector came through and wrote up
two receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them
actually having the blue stickers on them that said
"GFCI Protected - No Equipment Ground" (duh) before you
ask, it would be fairly difficult to pull grounds to
these boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. Also there
are a approximately 5 or 6 other receps throughout the
house that I haven't grounded yet that are in a similar
situation, and I don't want to open that can of worms
whereby accepting that the lack of a ground at these
receps is a fault that needs to be corrected leads to
the request to ground *everything.* (house was built
in 1948, before you ask. I did update a good bit of
the wiring already, just not all of it. Everything is
to the best of my knowledge code compliant at this
time, and in fact I got a permit for the rewiring I did
on the 2nd floor a while back.) SO.

I scanned the page of the NEC (2008 edition, which is
what my AHJ is using these days) addressing the
replacement of ungrounded receptacles; called the head
inspector to confirm that there were no local addendums
to the code (he said no) and so I have a case, right? I just need to
demonstrate that the receps are in fact
downstream of a GFCI. Here's where I had a moment of dumbass. I
figured I
would just stop by the Local Hardware Sellin' Emporium
and get one of those plug in cube testers - kind of
like the one I already have but this time the fancy one
with the little button on the top to test a GFCI. That
should do it, right? Well I get it home (not the house
for sale, my current temporary residence) and plug it
in to a kitchen recep, push the button, GFCI pops. Then
I read the instructions - says it may not work on
ungrounded receps. Of course it wouldn't - it probably
just has a resistor that the button inserts between hot
and ground so that it allows a current slightly higher
than 5 mA @ 120V. duh! So the question is - is there a tester
available that I
could use to demonstrate the principle to someone who's
not really clueful about such things that the GFCI
really works? I could use a test lead to connect the
ground pin to a faucet or something, but I have a
feeling that that wouldn't really help the case that I
know what I'm talking about and did a proper job in
front of people who aren't really clueful about
electricity and have never heard of the NEC... any ideas?


The GFCI works by compairing the current on the hot wire
to the neutral wire. If they are not ballanced, it
assumes that current is going to ground somewhere and
opens the circuit. The only way to test it is to create an unbalanced
condition. Many testers put a resistor from the hot
wire to ground. To test the ones without a ground such
as you have, you will need to run a wire from the ground
pin of the socket or tester to a grounded item. Such as
to a grounded receptical or other grounded device. To demonstrate the
recepticals are protected, put a lamp
in them and go to the testor and plug it into the GFCI
that protects them. When you trip that socket, it
should cut off the current to the other ones if the GFCI
socket is grounded.

Right, I just don't know if that constitutes "proof" to
someone who really doesn't know what's going on. I don't
have the couple grand to pay an electrician to "fix" all
this, nor do I have the free time between now and closing
to do it myself.
nate

I think you can argue this one yourself by simply arranging a vist to the
office once you have your head firmly around the requirements of the NEC.
Try googling for "gfci design" WITH THE QUOTES to learn more about how they
work in 2-wire setups.
Then be sure your receptacles/markings are all in place as the NEC requires
for 2 and/or 3 wire receptacles or whatever else might be being protected.
The gfci should also be properly current rated of course.

HTH,

Twayne`